Nick Estes: Peltier eta Annie Mae-z

Hasierarako, ikus Peltier eta Annie Mae

Segida:

ooo

New Hulu Documentary Targets Leonard Peltier and Indigenous Peoples’ Liberation Struggles

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzq0QnzZTVU&t=1484s)

Transkripzioa:

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[Music]

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all right everybody welcome back to the remix Morning Show right here in Black Liberation media Amber gei Cal Jared and

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our special guest joining us today Nick eses who among many other things is an

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American Lota Community organizer journalist and historian at the University of Minnesota and he has

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co-founded the Red Nation and red media podcasts and media Outlets uh and doing

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great work Nick it’s a pleasure to to finally get you to join us welcome good morning peace good morning good morning

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good morning it’s cold here in Minneapolis yeah oddly it’s even cold here in Maryland uh which is which is

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increasingly getting warmer uh seeing less and less snow every year um but listen we you you I do

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like when when guests uh set us up with some homework assignments and and things to review uh to sort of frame a

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conversation I’m happy to have you take this in any way you know you know that you’d like any direction you’d like but

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I did watch this uh uh vow of silence right the an anime story I think I

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forgot now I forgot the whole title but on on Hulu which as I texted you I thought was was a a a wild psychological

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warfare hit job on not only indigenous history struggles uh Liberation

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struggles in general coel pro but specifically Leonard Peltier I I was I

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it was almost shocking to see I I say almost to see how this

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series with no primer no real framing discussion nothing just throws him in

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there as basically a violent Hitman uh and then they leave it at that so if

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there’s if there’s ever anyone who ever watches this and then comes across his name later there’ll be there’s going to

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be zero empathy for this political prisoner uh uh and in that history that

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he represents so that’s that was one of the things that I took from this but with that you know uh sort of

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foundation let me you know uh turn it over to you what what

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what does this series do what is how do you contextualize it and how do you

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think to the extent people watch it it should be responded to sure um well

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first let me introduce myself haki I’m I um I’m actually from the L BR

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Sue tribe um this was is Si changu we’re part of the oti shako born and raised in

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South Dakota and in fact I I was uh in college at the time that this was uh

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these trials were happening um for her alleged murders for anime yash’s alleged

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murders uh and I remember reading the stuff in the newspaper and at that time I didn’t really have like a critical

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frame of reference to really respond or ask questions about what was going on I

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think the general consensus you know I was teaching a summer school in a summer High School in Rapid City at the time

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where all these trials took place Rapid City has the name of racist City meaning

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that you know like it’s it’s a notoriously anti-indian uh Border Town uh at the in the heart of

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our territory in Kapa or place we call the black or that is also known as the Black

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Hills um and so you know this happened at a time you know I I want to talk a

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little bit about the context of like these trials uh because I think it’s important because we’re almost like uh

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you know almost two decades uh out from those trials which started in 2000 and concluded uh in in

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2011 um and at that time you know the can Indian movement what was left of it you know was really kind of destroyed in

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terms of its its credibility as an organization even its Legacy which I think is incredibly important because

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this becomes then a forbidden history for academics like myself to talk about because how can you write and talk about

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an organization that is inherently misogynist um that assassinates uh women

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who are on the rise you know this is the narrative that the that was coming out of these trials um because sadly we

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haven’t had books um by native people sympathetic with a with the Liberation

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tradition um written about the American Indian movement most of the books are written by non-native people um there

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are a few uh you know autobiographies which are good um but there hasn’t been sort of a

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comprehensive book and this isn’t a plug for myself but this is this is my frustration this is a book that I didn’t

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want to write so I began to research uh and one of the first questions that you get as somebody who’s researching the

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American Indian movement is who killed anime aquash and that was something that frustrated me from the very beginning

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because I I joined the Leonard peler uh campaign back in

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2013 officially uh working for his campaign organizing events organizing

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marches uh teachings movie showings all those kinds of things letter writing campaigns and that was something that

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really um that was that kind of bothered me because if Leonard Peltier had something to do uh with her murder how

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could I you know somebody is like an an indigenous person a Lota person um you

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know advocate for for this man’s clemency so I’ll just put that out there

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and um I also just want to do a quick overview of this film so so those of you

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who are out there don’t have to watch this Disney produced Hulu documentary um and I’ll just I’ll give the narrative

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and then I’ll critique the narrative because I think that’s important important to do so this film is a

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four-part series it um I I’ll say first of all the if you watch the film um the docu the the

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documentary kind of evidence that they bring in terms of the film archive is actually pretty phenomenal um they do

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some restoration on some of these on some of these uh color uh you know archival footage uh that they found

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which is really phenomenal I thought it really brought that that you know that era to life as somebody who’s done the

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research and looked at some of the same uh films some of the same archives that these producers have looked at I was

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pretty Blown Away by like by that aspect of it so I want to give that sort of a a shout out because that’s actually kind

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of one of the cool things about the documentary is that it does give you that that kind of imagery of that time period I don’t think a documentary has

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done that yet um most of what we see is black and white the same sort of images that are produced uh by sort of the mass

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media um but generally after beyond the sort of archival uh footage the

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documentary repeats this sort of narrative that was created um by a

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native journalist named Paul demain and he’s featured heavily in the uh

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documentary itself um Paul demain um you know he’s he’s uh he founded this uh

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Outlet called news from Indian Country he was somebody who was kind of uh adjacent to the American Indian movement

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uh during the noviciate Takeover in 1975 there was an armed Takeover in Wisconsin

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of a monastery that had been a abandoned that’s kind of featured in the film and he was there and he talks about the

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scene where they like you know somebody points a gun at him and an a member allegedly points a gun at him and says are you a snitch and you know and that’s

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kind of when he was like we need to question you know the the values of the American Indian movement but he also

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kind of cast himself kind of revealingly as as an outsider to uh you know native

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politics um somebody who didn’t grow up in Native communities not to fault him he was adopted out he didn’t know he was

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native until later on in life which sadly is the case of a lot of people because of the genocidal policies that

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we face um but instead of you know maybe trying to correct the record I think he

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he kind of falls into the Trap of you know just really there’s no other way to put this

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I’m trying not to be vulgar but just sucking from the tee of the FBI in terms of the information that he’s getting and

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and I know this uh for several reasons I’ve done the research and I you know something something that um isn’t

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necessarily revealed in this document but in in the 9s uh there was a a major

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split that was happening within the American Indian movement and it also centered on um the um the uh the Leonard

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peler defense committee and I’ll get into that later so I think it’s just important to kind of put that out there that Paul demain is this figure and this

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is kind of his story this is the story that he published on the pages of news from Indian Country um and he’s kind of

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getting these these leads uh and this information in these leaks from the investigators themselves um so this kind

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of follows you know anime aquash is uh you know she joins the American Indian

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movement she’s part of the Boston Indian Council in the 70s she kind of has a falling out with her husband at that

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time she leaves her children to to join uh the the red Power movement as she

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sees it joining the American Indian movement she aligns herself uh with um

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Dennis Banks who then Becomes Her Lover um there’s you know jealousy and animosity according to the filmmakers

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and and this narrative that’s being portrayed around anime Awash is Rise within the ranks of the American Indian

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movement you know anime aquash is depicted as somebody who um you know

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who’s Who’s down for the cause you know she’s she’s uh she’s not going to sit in the kitchen she’s going to take up a gun

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and stand with the men that’s kind of the way she’s portrayed uh in this documentary she’s at the siege of

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Wounded Knee in 1973 where she marries uh no her husband she divorces her previous

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husband husband Jake Maloney uh who’s Mig MOG um and Jake kind of gets custody

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of their children U and her children are actually uh kind of central to this story as well her daughter Denise kind

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of becomes this outspoken advocate for her mother she’s featured heavily in this documentary um and you know from

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1973 to uh anime Awash is murder in 1975 um we kind of get this picture of

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of of aim uh disintegrating falling Wounded Knee there’s a lot of uh rumors

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about conspiracy you know um there’s a major FBI infiltrator uh or a

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self-described operative named Douglas Durham who’s outed um he’s actually very

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close to anime not in terms of they’re not friends but in terms of their alignment both of them are with the sort

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of banks faction and so he begins you know she’s suspicious of him and he’s

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also suspicious of her and so there’s kind of an implication it’s not it’s not overtly said that he kind of puts this

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you know a bad jacket or a snitch jacket on her saying that she could be the potential infiltrator and after he’s

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outed you know the the depiction in the film is that aim sort of descends into

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chaos of a of a finger pointing well who’s the you know who’s the FBI operative who’s the undercover and so in

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1975 at a Farmington meeting in Farmington New Mexico there’s

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a brutal slaying of these Navajo men in Farmington that’s that’s a whole that that kind of falls to the Wayside it’s

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like the background information but um there was you know there was uh these individuals in Farmington New Mexico who

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were mutilated and uh and murdered by uh white children essentially and their

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body parts were hung in their in their school lockers it was called um you know the Farmington Massacre so aim came down

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to respond they’re invited by the community um to come down to respond and at this Farmington convention

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um that’s when you know the fingers start pointing at anime Awash officially that she’s the snitch she’s uh just like

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Doug Durham you know she’s a she’s a FBI infiltrator um so let’s get you know our

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our bagman you know um Leonard paler who’s just a thug that’s kind of how he’s depicted in this film to go put a

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gun head and ask her whether or not she’s an FBI informant and from there

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it kind of the the the narrative kind of falls off the rails in my opinion because actually what happens from that

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point onwards is incredibly important but they don’t get into any of those details what ends up happening is that

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there’s the shootout um in in olala in 19 or in June of

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1975 Leonard Peltier Goes On The Run enemy Aquas joins them uh her peler

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Banks and kamuk Nichols who’s talked about also kook’s sisters is with them Bernie Nicholls they get a motor home

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they’re they’re stopped in Oregon um you know Dennis Banks and Leonard peler flee

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uh both anime and um uh kamuk are arrested and jailed anime’s uh

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extradited to South Dakota because she has outstanding charges for explosives um and then a judge uh grants her um

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basically you know she had a hearing and she instead of staying in night or

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overnight in jail to get that hearing in the morning uh the judge lets her out for the evening and then from that point

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she she basically becomes a fugitive again um and she flees from South Dakota

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to to Denver uh and in Denver she goes to Troy and yellowwoods home uh where

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she’s basically interrogated by her accusers people uh you know they they name Theta Clark which I’ll get to later

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um as one of the accusers of anime Awash is being an FBI informant and she’s the

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reason why they were stopped in Oregon and why they got caught um and so from

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there they take her to the Wounded Knee uh legal Defense House in Rapid City interrogate her they take her to uh the

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reservation um there’s there’s kind of ambiguity about what happens but then ultimately she’s assassinated she’s

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killed she’s dumped on the roadside outside of um a place um called uh

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Scenic and um gosh I I forgot my S toota geography um uh but it’s on the it’s

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it’s on the border or on the edge of the Pine Ridge reservation in the Badlands um and so that’s where the story kind of

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like that’s the Arc of the story and then of course you have these two sort of hero cops you have uh Hispanic Latino

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uh you know police officer from Denver and then you have a native man who’s the first US Marshall and they he has a

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vision like this is no joke he has a vision he has a vision about anime aquash is

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murder while he’s uh in a you know as a as a Jailer in in Pine Ridge and then he

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decides I’m gonna Crack the Case so he grows his hair long joins up teams up with his buddy uh uh you know um Alonzo

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in Denver and uh his name is Bob eae and then they crack the case and they reveal all this thing and there there’s this

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implication that oh maybe there was a little bit of racism within the FBI and they didn’t pay enough attention

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um and that’s why you know that’s why they could never solve the murder and so it’s this kind of like

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copaganda uh story arc where it’s like at the end of the day the very people who were trying to destroy the movement

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and who had killed actual aim members thus become the saviors right um and I

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think this movie does a really good job at kind of like condensing that narrative and putting it into a very uh

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watchable film you know I had people texting me throughout and it’s like the sad thing about doing this work is

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like everyone wants to show you stuff like what’s your opinion on this really awful thing that I just watched and so I

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I was forced to watch it and Jared uh you know reached out and wanted me to come on the show and I was like if I’m gonna come on the show I’m gonna talk

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about this and if I’m gonna talk about this you’re gonna watch it too

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so and if I can I just want to coign a couple of points that you made here one

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to your point about the the quality of the film this for me is increasingly a problem that that we are getting more

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sophisticated higher quality propaganda and if you don’t know any of this history you would watch this series and

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just be like wow this is just amazing and yeah this Peltier guy is a thug and

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aim is just a collapsing mess and what struggle were they associated with in general like I really it’s weird but and

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even the 75 Pine Ridge incident I thought okay I was like okay

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now we about to it’s like it’s I even went back and watched it again it’s like it’s like quick two FBI agents get

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killed a native guy gets killed and then we move on and I’m like what I was like

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wait a minute what you know almost none of the real cont so it was just so but all to to to drive as you said the story

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that a the police are ultimately good they’re doing the best they can it’s these natives running around here

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killing each other and I mean it’s so complicated you know what more could we expect from the FBI it was kind of like

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the and they’re they’re interviewing FBI agents this indigenous guy you’re talking about become he like they they

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you’re meant to feel his pride in becoming the first in the federal

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government to go and become this native hunter from the people them I mean it’s

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so crazy and it’s and but it’s it’s done in a way that if you don’t have a certain view it’s gonna so I just wanted

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to to uh yeah I cosign those those uh couple of points um I also think it’s

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interesting that the narrative that they show for this documentary is completely different from the one they show about

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the IRA because they make you you know want to believe in the police and the

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native people are so bad but in the ira one they got people looking up what’s the Irish Republican Army like how do I

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this is a real movement like they was really powerful these were political Heroes they was having a hunger strike

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for over 200 days like the whole narrative is different for these white people for Irish but they that’s

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interesting it would be interesting to do like a full on comparison I think you make a good point

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there even the documentary they’re both on Hulu and that Hulu putting out this very

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politically charged content lately that’s a good point I haven’t seen I haven’t seen the IRA documentary

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but I’ve I’ve seen the sort of production around uh you know a lot of the Black

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Panther films like even the you know uh what was it um Judas and the black

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Messiah um and it’s it’s interesting I mean there’s a lot of criticism for that

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film I think which you know I don’t want to get into here but in some ways it’s it’s it’s portraying the Panthers in a

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in a positive light but it’s doing the it’s in some ways it’s also doing the same thing that this film is doing is

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it’s it’s creating a martyr out of somebody it’s like it’s only good revolutionary is a dead revolutionary

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right um and then they can only be Redeemed by the police that’s the narrative in this in this particular uh

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film and I and I want to like I I want to back up a little bit because I think it is important Jared what you point out

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about the shootout in 1975 and I also um you know in my research I I it’s not that I’m against

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the label of Co inel Pro but I want to say that this is something the tactics

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that were used were entirely different in many ways because even the assassination of Fred Hampton wasn’t

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directed by an actual FBI agent he didn’t pull the trigger but The Siege on

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wounded knee was actually FBI agents with armaments from the United States

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military engaging in in their own words paramilitary tactics and they released a

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a document in April of 1975 justifying the occupation the

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military occupa the paramilitary occupation of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation not for solving this Spate

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of murders rapes uh beatings that were taking place on the reservation post

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1973 they were there to destroy the American Indian movement and to anticipate some kind of military

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engagement with them this is April you know several months before the shootout

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so it’s important to point that out that I don’t know what that’s not Co Andel Pro that’s just the

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paramilitar of the FBI and in my research I found that like this is a

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this is a unique Turning Point yeah you know Hoover’s dead right the FBI is is reforming itself it’s doing it’s doing

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something entirely different and Wounded Knee happens in the wake of of Hoover’s death uh and this is the first time you

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see the FBI uh creating its own special operations groups uh engaging in

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militarized uh tactics and even training it’s mentioned a little bit in this film

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it’s the first time somebody uh interviewed uh David Price on film who’s this notorious FBI agent at that time

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but he admitted he’s like yeah we gave you know uh we gave we didn’t give them a hunting or we didn’t give them rifles

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directly we just gave it to them for their their prie dog shooting program or whatever and it was the first time that

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they admitted that they were actually supplying the Vigilante arm of the tribal government with high-powered

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rifles um there’s also hundreds of pages of documents from

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the Department of military um they had this program at the time where they

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would loan out uh military equipment to federal agencies to crush uh you know uh

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civil uh unrest um and you know there’s very few instances that that that

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program was actually used and one of them was wounded knee um you actually had F4 you know fighter jets flying over

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you had apcs um you had for the first time the Bureau of Indian Affairs police being

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trained uh with these high-powered uh you know military grade equipment um um and it was kind of fascinating too the

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documents is that the that I read about some of these Bia police um and the US Marshals they kind

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of made fun of the FBI because the FBI they they didn’t like to get their hands dirty they would always get somebody

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else to do it so it was the first time that they actually had to engage in firefights with people and for the first

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time they experienced a sense of risk and danger something that culminated in 1975 in June at at the olala shootout

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where two of their two of their agents were killed that’s a big deal deal that kind of it is underplayed at that point

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and you know FBI agents themselves have come forward and said that the continued incarceration of Leonard paler is a

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continuing FBI Vendetta um and I want to I want to back up a little bit because I

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want to like just push back on the overall Narrative of this film with just just facts versus just you know I can I

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can you know as an academic I can make sort of theoretical arguments about the structure of the repressive State you

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know and what it does to social movements but I think just looking at the facts here especially in the leadup

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to anime aquash is murder in December of 1975 is incredibly important so we have

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the shootout in you know in June anime actually comes back to the

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reservation looking for looking to meet up with Leonard Peltier now why does

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like why would that make sense if this man held a gun to her head and said are you an FBI informant why would she want

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to meet up with him well it’s because according to Peltier and Bob rubido who

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was a co-defendant of Leonard Peltier anim aquash was sort of Taken under the

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wing of peltier’s outfit for protection right and there’s even a dispute about

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that incident where he allegedly had interrogated her at gunpoint cuz it’s only her word we get right I mean they

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were the only two people there right so there’s no right sorry yeah yeah yeah and I don’t want to like I don’t want to

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say too much about that other than to say that I know from talking to folks um

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that that it didn’t go down like that you know um Leonard and Anime were

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friends and he wouldn’t do that let’s just say that but let’s say that story

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to kind of quell you know these suspicions might sound better if she

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said you know if if it looked like that she was held at the point of a gun let’s just say that that’s what was insinuated

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it was it was something that was made up um and then it gets used against him later on right so he takes her under his

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his outfit and he’s with Dino Butler Bob rubido that’s the you know those are his codefendants those are Leonard peltier’s

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codefendants in the shootout and so why would if this man had just threatened her life why would she Risk Everything

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to go meet up with him especially when he’s so hot at that moment you know when the entire FBI is looking for him right

25:35

that doesn’t make any sense and then you know and then when um she is you know

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when he when she does meet up with him and they they’re on that organ thing like it it doesn’t make sense that even

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after she’s arrested in Oregon in 1975 and extradited back to South Dakota that

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she’s going to be like hey you know what a really great idea would be is to abscond you know Go On The Run be a

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fugitive and then go meet up meet back up with this guy and try to meet up with Dennis banks that doesn’t make any does

26:06

that sound like somebody who was fearful of their life of the people who were surrounding them to me that sounds like

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you’re just walking into the fire you know and I don’t think she was that stupid you know um to to do those things

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but there’s this you know she goes to Denver this this did happen um you know

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she goes to Denver in 197 in in November of 1975 um and and there you do have Theta

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Clark you do have um the other two uh people Arlo looking cloud and johnboy

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Graham who are there they’ve all admitted to being there it’s some it’s you know some capacity so they go there and they and

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Theta Clark is the one who begins to interrogate her she’s the one who actually first accused her in at in um

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in the Farmington convention previously that year and they have this kind of

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bogus document that says you know informant A&B you know that’s why they were stopped in in uh Oregon and this is

27:06

the reason why she’s you know she’s the she’s either informant A or B and that’s why they got stopped in Oregon well

27:11

according to FBI documents they’ve been following them the entire time um and I

27:17

don’t think anyone in that in that group was an informant I just think that they had intelligence I mean they’re driving

27:22

around in in BR Marlo Brandon’s um mobile home Marlo Brando’s

27:29

mobile yeah yeah it’s he’s not that’s that’s not

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inconspicuous um so anyways she’s there being interrogated in Denver and then

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you know it’s theta’s you know there’s this phone call there’s this all the stuff that happens like let’s bring her to let’s bring her to um Rapid City so

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they bring her to Rapid City and from from my accounts you know from what I I understand um this did happen she was

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brought into the wiled do office um and they did ask her but they but from what I what I was told they were

28:02

just like get out of here why is you as a fugitive coming to the defense attorney’s offices like the aim house

28:10

that puts everybody in in Jeopardy and so people were angry that she had showed up like from the people I spoke they

28:16

were angry that she had showed up because it’s like you’re this this house is being surveilled you know um and so

28:23

she does leave what happens after that is is you know she gets mured murdered

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but the The crucial Point here is that in in uh December 1975 December 19th to

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be surpr uh to be precise an informant an FBI informant in Denver notifies his

28:44

Handler and what are called you know these 302 reports that anime aquash was

28:50

murdered the week prior after being held in Denver and she was murdered by Theta

28:57

Clark John Boy Graham and Arlo looking

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Cloud that doesn’t come up in the in the documentary at all you know I’m not I’m not some kind of like genius researcher

29:11

you know like doing I got this FBI secret FBI document this has been out in the public uh since at least

29:18

2011 that this was known but this crucial so this FBI

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informant lets the FBI know this person was killed

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this is who did it this is when it happened so why did it take until February of the next or March

29:37

of the next year so December to March for them to identify the body and when they showed up on scene I thought that

29:44

was a a masterful reconstruction just a pure fabrication when they showed up and

29:49

they were like oh it’s you know there’s we found this this this person who was thrown off on the side of the road and

29:55

it was just you know it was just exposure if it was just just an exposure death it it was just another dead Indian

30:01

is basically what they were trying to say then why would David Price why would

30:06

Bob efei why would all these agencies be out on that scene right and remember

30:12

David Price even admits in that in that uh interview that he said yeah I was

30:18

looking for her so he knew what she looked like she he had a profile you

30:23

even look at the description of his of his uh FBI report reports of what anime

30:29

aquash looked like and it noted you know it detailed her jewelry and that jewelry that is like as a key piece throughout

30:35

the entire film and he couldn’t identify her at the crime scene and then they put her off you know go go ahead well I just

30:42

want to clarify because in the documentary in the series we’re shown uh

30:47

looking Cloud Theta and the third who I forget the third um Theta CL and John

30:53

Graham they are all named identified as having likely been The

30:58

Killers exactly Theta I think is her is she herself killed or

31:06

she she she’s never charged I can’t remember what the text said but but I just want you to clarify that that we’re

31:13

shown that they’re the the the alleged Killers but we’re never shown this point that you’re making about the FBI

31:18

document revealing the names months earlier and that the FBI is I think as I’m hearing

31:24

your point the FBI is the source for the claim that these are the killers yeah am

31:30

I hearing okay okay this informant this informant um who actually the the

31:37

informant was actually the intimate partner of the person whose

31:44

house they were being held at um in in Denver I think that’s important to point out and I also think it’s um you know

31:51

important to point out that the theory of the case is that it wasn’t just Theta

31:57

Clark who you know got a hair up her butt and decided to kill this person it was an

32:04

orchestrated right uh conspiracy by aim leadership to have her assassin assassin

32:10

that’s the theory of the case right and then were shown all of the aim leadership Russell Means Dennis Banks

32:18

johnell b b and Court they’re all either I don’t know or that one did it or they

32:24

might have been involved I don’t really you know it was a whole bunch of yeah finger pointing or

32:29

non CLA nonacceptance of of involvement just okay sorry thank you go ahead yeah

32:36

yeah yeah so they’re they’re at this crime scene and you know it’s it’s important David Price in that film actually says like yeah he knews he knew

32:42

what he looked like but he didn’t know she looked like then you know um or didn’t you know question like what were

32:49

the circumstances of this I mean she was there was a lot of decompos decomposition of her body at that time

32:56

but at the same time they had had you know that pathologist who kind of

33:01

declared um you know that she was just a Jane do and she was um you know that she

33:07

had died of exposure and she was probably like you know drunk or whatever you know it was a very racist thing and so it was the family who uh demanded

33:16

that there be uh you know an exhumation and then another autopsy done U and

33:22

that’s when this guy from Minneapolis goes down and he finds that there was a bullet in her head a 32 Caliber um

33:28

bullet and so uh that’s that’s the kind of the story right and then after that

33:33

you know there’s like there you know the the case goes cold until the 90s right

33:40

um and this mysterious box of you know um this is I don’t know if they played

33:46

this up in the film but in the in the trailer they were like you know if you watch the trailer to this film a mysterious box arrives at the producers

33:53

homes and it’s contains all these FBI doc or these FBI recordings well those FBI recordings are from a paid FBI

34:01

informant kamuk Nichols who was formerly married to uh

34:07

Dennis Banks his wife turns FBI informant what is not mentioned in the

34:12

documentary and this might be shocking to you Jared is that kamuk actually during the course of the trial and

34:19

investigations becomes intimate with Bob beae the lead

34:25

investigator and then marries him in the midst of the trial so she can’t testify against him and he he can’t testify

34:33

against her that’s that seems like a crucial element you know to to just kind of

34:39

gloss over oh by the way uh the the the lead uh informant you know the main informant the key witness is married to

34:47

the key investigator why they always skip over the messy stuff that’s the good part yeah they should have done the

34:53

whole series just on that right yeah yeah no no because I need them to include the messy is with the Revolutionary stories I need to know

34:59

that they’re well-rounded you know they had the tea they had a roster they was doing a lot they had three divorces we need to know all of

35:05

it but but well so but sort of to Amber’s point the tea that they do share

35:11

in the in the documentary is meant to further the The Narrative they want to tell so they do get into uh uh anime had

35:20

relationships with this one with that one uh you know so and so was mad that

35:25

that you know her ex was mad that she moved on to to Dennis banks that that was you know there was some of that in

35:31

there but it’s all sort of to push the narrative that basically aim and the native Community is a mess and and you

35:40

know it’s not has nothing to do with the context of what the state has been doing it’s just you know these folks are a

35:45

mess the FBI is doing the best they can you know with the help of these good uh

35:51

informants and and and firsts to prosecute and all this you know like it

35:57

it so yeah but but but that would have been an interesting detail to include if

36:04

they were wanting any sort of honesty yeah all right all right so in the course of the trials I mean it’s it’s

36:09

important to point out that there was no like physical evidence that tied any of these people to the actual murder it was

36:15

all just he said she said kind of thing and the main she said was uh kamuk um

36:22

testifying against her former comrades and you know her former husband um which

36:28

seemed you know like that’s a huge betrayal I think and I think that really blew people’s mind at that time um you

36:34

know and I think Leonard pel even said it’s like getting stabbed in the heart you know um and it’s also I think just

36:42

to just to point out that like to refocus a little bit so Theta Clark um

36:48

is the main conspirator conspirator according to this you know the states theory of the case but they spend the

36:55

state and the do these documentary filmmakers spend like almost no time

37:01

talking about her which I thought was kind of fascinating it’s all the men you know the men who orchestrated everything

37:07

but the leadership at that time the male leadership at that time couldn’t even be in a room together they were so there

37:13

was so much differences uh and you know conflict among them right that this idea

37:18

that they all sat in a room and were like you know pressed the button so to speak to to carry out this hit just

37:24

doesn’t make any sense um and they would all they probably if they were alive today they would probably all say that you know um but because they always

37:32

trying to erase where women were in the movement you know that we were actually in charge that’s that’s another important

37:40

element here and I think reading these documents and reading the narrative that the FBI puts out the FBI was obsessed

37:47

with the men like they like they but they you know you you uh you look at these documents I even looked at some of

37:53

the surveillance uh photographs you know a lot of these press people that were going in FBI Bia would pay them for

38:00

their B roles um and so you would get that and that’s how they they would make identifications but there were so many

38:06

women there there were so many children there it was like as was told to me by uh you know McDonna Thunderhawk aim was

38:13

a movement of families right it wasn’t just a bunch of dudes which what it what

38:18

is kind of portrayed in this film it was a movement of families but the media and the FBI chose the leadership they chose

38:25

the spokespeople they you know and when this Crackdown happened after Wounded Knee

38:31

they weren’t really interested in what the what the women were doing it was completely invisible to them so they

38:36

they kept the movement going the movement did parts of the movement did go underground but just because you know

38:42

Dennis Banks was you know on the run or Leonard pel or who you know Russell Means whoever was on the Run didn’t mean

38:49

that the that the schools shut down that the community programs went away that the the organizing just stopped the

38:55

women just continued it they even formed an organization called women of all red Nations uh which was uh you know the the

39:02

indigenous women’s movement within the American indiia movement they went to the United Nations in 1975 they were

39:08

touring they were going to Beirut they were going to you know Palestine they were going to uh the Soviet Union in the

39:15

80s they were connecting with uh the sandinistas in the 80s they were they were still a vibrant movement but

39:21

according to this narrative they you know they fell from Grace the men you know got too drunk on their power too

39:28

obsessed with their own images and it completely erases what comes after you know so it’s destroyed the legacy of the

39:35

American Indian movement it’s reframed it as something um that can be reduced to personalities right um and that’s the

39:42

that’s the intent of I mean that’s the effect uh if not the intent of what the

39:48

FBI did I mean even what’s also not addressed at all in this film is the the

39:54

brutality uh that the FBI went through to threaten and to coer native women to

40:01

turn against their own people like Jee roach is featured in this film and I I I

40:06

don’t want to speak on on her behalf but she was you know I I trust Jean and she

40:11

was telling she you know she was 14 years old at the time of the the sheet out in in ogala this is her story to

40:16

tell by the way if you ever want to have her on the podcast or your your show she would be a great person to interview and

40:22

she you know she’s 14 years old and she refused to testify at a grand jury she

40:27

she was 14 years old they threatened her they threatened you know threatened her mother threatened her family they went

40:32

after a child 14 years old and a lot of those people at that camp um at at olala

40:39

were under they were young people it wasn’t some like you know the oldest people were were uh dino Butler uh Bob

40:47

rubido and and Leonard Peltier the rest of them were effectively kids and so they paint them off as this like you

40:53

know militant revolutionary organization blah blah blah blah blah but they’re really just attacking kids and so what

41:00

does that say about the FBI uh and Myrtle por bear you know this uh woman who had severe mental health issues they

41:06

threatened to take away her children David Price the guy who was featured in this film threatened to take away her

41:11

children uh coerced her to testify you know against key aim leadership to

41:16

testify against um you know Leonard Peltier she later retracted that but

41:22

that was after the you know after the the immense amount of threats that they put on her threatened to kill her they

41:27

according to her showed her photos of anime aquash is dead body and said this could happen to you if you don’t

41:33

cooperate and so somehow these people you know there’s there’s this other element here that I there’s two things

41:39

that I want to I I know we’re running out of time but there’s two elements that I want to talk about one is the the

41:45

very uh plausible reality that Theta Clark was an FBI

41:51

inform uh and the second one is to talk about this idea of murdered missing indigenous women uh this movement that

41:58

has you know that has sprung up and it it really kind of launched as a campaign in the 90s around the time this re this

42:04

investigation was restarted and reignited and how the murder of anime Awash has been taken up um by the FBI

42:13

the FBI the very perpetrators of violence against indigenous women at this time are now the Arbiters of

42:21

Justice uh for these various uh for these women and to go back to Pine Ridge

42:26

the the Pine Ridge uh reservation the olala Sue tribe sued the FBI recently

42:32

sued the Department of Justice because there were so many unsolved murders unsolved rapes unsolved cases of of you

42:39

know violence against indigenous women because even though there was a large influx of federal dollars for policing

42:45

these crimes were not being solved so it begs the question what is the purpose of the FBI in this in this in this scenario

42:53

according to our jurisdiction uh as Indian Reservation you know we they’re Federal they’re

42:59

considered Federal jurisdiction so the FBI has Supreme jurisdiction they’re they’re the ones who are in charge of

43:05

investigating Major Crimes such as murder and rape but what we’ve seen them do is just become essentially a colonial

43:12

police force that is meant to destroy our political movements uh they’ve they’ve attempted to destroy the

43:19

American Indian movement last thing I want to say if if there are any more questions is that there have been

43:25

credible accusations from leaders themselves uh people who are not in this film people who are on the ground

43:32

there’s a man named Ernesto v hill he was a a Cho organizer in Denver at the

43:38

time I listened to a podcast he did with uh just randomly uh he was part of the

43:43

Crusade for justice and he kind of laid out the details of the case and at that time I was researching the details of

43:48

the case and he he plugged in some key questions um that I had that I that just

43:54

didn’t add up because I was sitting there holding this FBI do that said they knew who killed they knew who killed her

44:00

in December 1975 like why is it why is it not coming

44:05

out until the 90s and and the early 2000s that people get charged and why is the person who’s named in this document

44:11

you know or according to the states theory of the case the main perpetrator never brought to

44:17

trial never brought to trial why is there no focus on this um and those are like legitimate

44:25

questions you know that haven’t been answer this film does not answer those questions and in fact it obscures them

44:31

it doesn’t even get into the other Witnesses who became the key informants uh for the FBI sirl Chapman who was u a

44:40

British national he was he was in the you know he was like aligned with the American Indian movement he wrote

44:46

several books one was forwarded by Bill Clinton the president um and it turns

44:52

out he was a pretendian he was he was pretending to be native uh at that time a British national I don’t know you know

44:58

this is again the media and the state tends to pick our leadership that doesn’t come internally from us as much

45:04

as you’re you’re all fault as it is ours but he becomes this person who is who

45:10

starts writing the official book on the American indiia movement and he starts going around in the 90s interviewing all

45:17

these people and he becomes a paid FBI informant he gets what’s called an S

45:22

Visa a special Visa which is also known as a snitch visa to become a key witness he turns hundreds of thousands of

45:29

dollars he’s being paid um he’s later outed um he’s he’s reinvented himself

45:35

his name is like uh rain bear I think he did he recently did a documentary on mmiw he met um uh President Biden it’s

45:43

it’s wild how how these people just completely reinvent themselves and there’s no accountability there’s no

45:49

memory of this but his his testimony becomes the sort of key documents and he

45:55

he he basically you know becomes a doj informant FBI informant because he gets a special visa to stay in the United

46:01

States and S Visa which is also known as a snitch Visa this is all this is all public documents I’m not like revealing

46:07

any SE like hard Secrets here this is something that anyone can go online and find so he’s he’s another individual um

46:15

and I bring him up because you have kamuk Nichols and sirl Chapman who are

46:20

the the the key State Witnesses against you know the the American Indian

46:25

movement that’s where they’re they’re resting their credibility um on their theory of the case of these two key

46:32

Witnesses um and it’s I you know at that time there was a lot of things happening

46:37

but I would say that I don’t know today if they could do uh what they did back

46:43

then but nonetheless it’s set a a narrative that is hard to disrupt um we

46:49

did an episode on this allegation uh and this myth that uh

46:54

Leonard Peltier had something to do uh with anime aquash is murder um check it

47:01

out on our our platform the Red Nation Podcast um because we knew this film was

47:06

coming out we knew the executive producers on it none of them are native

47:11

um there was there’s a different contentious history about how the film came about I don’t want to get into it

47:16

now um but a lot of people I knew were really uncomfortable uh with with telling with

47:22

even being interviewed um by these filmmakers even though the the director

47:28

herself is from our our nation she’s Lota Ivon Russo because sirl Chapman you

47:35

know said he was just you know doing a book on the American Indian movement turns out that he’s an FBI informant but

47:42

also this the the loaded nature in which you know you’re you’re entering into a snake pit essentially when you when you

47:49

agree to do these things and we don’t have control over the narrative we don’t have control over the narrative let let

47:55

me jump in um and you kind of said you didn’t want to get too much into it so I just want to get a little bit into it U

48:01

I’m always interested in the why Nows so for like a documentory like this um in

48:07

terms of um sort of the continued battering of the aim Legacy um why why

48:14

why do you think um uh obviously it’s a you know informally or formally an FBI

48:21

production but why why now at this particular stage do you think this is is

48:27

is um being put out there um the way it’s being put out there um uh casting

48:34

people as heroes and villains and obviously portraying the law enforcement

48:40

particularly the FBI um as as the heroes of the story solving cases and so forth and so

48:47

on I don’t I don’t know the intent but I can know that there’s there’s cor correlative kind of uh occurrences uh

48:57

one is the fact that you know Leonard Peltier is is coming up for clemency um it it it tends to happen I

49:03

mean at his last a Bop hearing bu Bureau of Prisons hearing for his um his parole

49:10

you know this was actually brought up um this accusation that he had something to do with the murder it’s completely bogus

49:17

um and this was bought up in 2011 at the same you know a parole hearing that he had had um there’s that there’s also a

49:26

really powerful growing movement um that

49:32

uh in like of Lota people for land back um there’s been a growing movement in

49:38

the Black Hills uh and where I’m from around this and what better way to delegitimize the legacy of that movement

49:45

you know to say you have no Heroes you have no you know you have no ground all your heroes are tarnished you know

49:51

they’re murderers and and the effect of this is like it’s like kind of watching just like an old Western film in many

49:57

ways it’s like we the landscape our issues as as Lota people become the

50:03

background um for this character you know anime aquash and her murder and then you know the subsequent police who

50:10

come in um we become the jealous type we become The Killers we become the conspirators you know that’s that’s the

50:17

way it’s it’s it’s it comes off and a lot of people talked about that you know that you know my friends and family from

50:23

back home they’re like wow this really portrays Lota people in a really bad light um and so there’s that there’s

50:29

that kind of effect of it you know it’s like it’s delegitimizing us like how could how can you take any of these

50:34

people seriously because you can trace all their their links back to this discredited misogynous uh murderous

50:41

homicidal movement right um and it’s also like it prevents us from even

50:47

having a solid grasp on our on our history right and and this is something as as an academic that I’m always I’m

50:55

really perplexed by that the way I mean I know I know the PMC professional managerial class I know that in many

51:01

ways Native people are or not native people but academics are sort of tools of Empire they get inscripted into this

51:07

but it’s it’s strange to me how it’s not strange but it’s always surprising to me

51:12

how this critical thinking faculty can be turned off when we say uh you know

51:18

the leadership is misogynist because then it reduces everything that aim did and a lot of the people they interviewed

51:24

who were making these accusations were not even part of the movement some of

51:29

them you know Joy harjo is is the the poet larat of was the poet larriat of the United States and she’s making some

51:36

pretty heavy accusations against the American Indian movement um and that that might have to do with the fact that

51:42

she knowingly crossed the BDS picket line she’s been called out by native activists left and right for her her

51:49

Zionist Tendencies um and you know aim was

51:54

anti-zionist aim was Anti-Imperialist you know they left that out of her lower

51:59

third by the way when you when you watch the film so I I uh I want to uh lemon

52:05

pepper cauliflower back off of Cal but um so so we talked about this before um

52:13

with Jared and and a few other people in terms of how once something get popular the film

52:20

industry comes and like make sure that you look at it this way and I don’t know if it’s like FBI C doing it or the

52:27

creatives are seeing something popular happen and they like oh I should probably tell a story and try to sell it

52:33

but what I was looking at was this um this thing that was published in

52:40

2018 and you see of a supposedly former supporter of lennett Peltier now I’m

52:47

saying why I no longer support him and then it goes into like the um the

52:53

conversation around being more uh lenient or being in more support of

52:58

Annie May’s family but then there’s there’s some a a comment down here that I wonder if any of these have accuracy

53:07

but this person was the only person who was kind of like all right this this letter is bullshit and then they went

53:12

into like why um it it was false but I wonder if this lady had something to do

53:18

with it or were they’re like very popular people who also was kind of flipping with ly lynon Peltier that

53:25

probably helped with this film um I haven’t seen the film yet I’m going to watch it now but I wonder if if you can get into like maybe some of the people

53:32

behind it some of the people behind the film or be yeah I mean according to like um Paul

53:42

Dain who’s the the you know the main journalist um which by the way you know I I have this I don’t know if I brought

53:48

this book but these these cops you know they they know I mean to the credit of

53:54

publisher and corporate publishers they these these Publishers don’t want to publish these police books but I find

54:00

them because they self-publish them on Amazon don’t pick this up don’t pick this up don’t read this book but this is

54:07

AB Alonzo’s like basically his his case files um you know it’s a it’s just total

54:12

like narcissistic self-aggrandizing thing and in this he he

54:19

admits that he and Paul De main were working hand inand so you have a

54:25

journalist a native journalist who’s completely you know discredit I mean we make this comment all the time like oh

54:30

you know journalists you know are just the stenographers of Empire but it’s like literally in here it’s in this book

54:37

and it’s in this book which is written by Joe trimbach um which is the American Indian

54:43

Mafia um and all you have to do is just look at who uh who uh blurb the book you

54:51

know you have Oliver North Paul demain Paul demain and it

54:57

says in here that the Richard twel who is also featured in the film wrote the introduction to this book so these are

55:04

the characters who are considered the experts you know Richard tuel in this film he’s also one of those people as as

55:11

you said gei that uh you know who was like I’m an I’m an aim die hard you know

55:17

and then then like after anime I came to God you know like I felt like this was something that I had I couldn’t stand

55:23

for anymore and so then he becomes you know he becomes an a sellout he becomes an informant essentially um that’s

55:31

that’s a a kind of like like a like the narrative that they also it’s kind of in

55:36

the film Paul demain kind of does this with Arlo or excuse me Richard does it Richard twel does this with Arlo to say

55:43

like he was the only person who has any kind of Redemptive capacity or should be

55:49

redeemed because he was the one who came forward he stepped forward and said you know I I was one of her Killers um and

55:55

it it’s it’s it’s sad because you know it

56:01

portrays this thing where it’s like all of a sudden you know these there’s these

56:07

people who turn like this person you’re talking about on here and their stories become centered right never the people

56:13

who were there the people who were actually there who witnessed um this

56:18

thing happened in real time are still alive you know I’ve interviewed many of them and they’ve said they’ve told me

56:25

you know tried to talk to people about this but nobody will listen they’re not the stories that people want to hear you

56:32

know they’re these are from people you know like this the sad thing about the aim Legacy and the industry around the

56:37

red Power movement is that it it’s also kind of created a bubble about who was

56:43

actually involved and many of the people that I’ve interviewed just sort of foot soldiers of aim whether they’re they’re

56:48

men women children they have a much different story to tell and and how things went down um and those stories

56:56

like what you’re what you’re pointing out those those stories make great headlines and clickbait and if you you only have to look uh during the time of

57:04

the trials to see a lot of these think pieces out you know Paul demain wrote this whole thing about why I no long he

57:10

was also that was his kind of story arc too he’s like I I was you know once a supporter of Leonard Peltier and now I

57:16

can no longer I can no longer support him because of what I know uh you know Leonard peler actually sued Paul demain

57:23

and said it’s liable for you to make an accusation that I murder I had something to do with the murder of anime aash and

57:29

guess what he won that Lial suit so it’s a liess claim according to even this

57:35

colonial uh court system to even make that accusation right but Leonard peler

57:40

doesn’t have the resources nor the time nor the will to go around just suing people making these accusations but then

57:47

once that’s done legally speak then how could the documentary get away legally without including reference to that as

57:54

they’re allowing accusation of him to go off by the way to your previous point

58:00

about who’s still here I said the same thing is I’m watching on the te at one

58:06

point they make reference to this and then the text on the screen says something to the effect by such and such a date all of these leaders from Aim

58:13

have died trudell Bell and Court

58:18

means you know and I’m like leard still here I was like you know you you name

58:25

checked him you know you drag his ass in the documentary for five good minutes he’s still here you know you could have

58:32

but and but they they so they don’t do that then they also don’t make reference to what you just said about this this

58:38

this liist case so so it brings me back to that initial question then how would

58:45

they even I mean I get it I get it but but legally speaking

58:51

there should have been some question about that inclusion in the documentary uh if they don’t even make reference to

58:56

the fact that he’s he’s won a case on this on this claim but yeah I know I

59:02

mean he’s he’s a man in prison who’s had all his rights taken away so what what it like what does it mean you can just

59:07

dump more shit on excuse my language but you can just dump more shit on him yeah you can cuss kamal’s kid is gone now

59:14

yeah Camal took his kids yeah Cal left with the baby so um listen I know you

59:20

know we’re relatively speaking technically we’re we we’re out of time but although there’s no official rule

59:27

here about that but uh um uh to just be mindful of your time and everyone else’s

59:33

I’ll at least give you a chance to to if there’s any pressing questions from my comrades on screen or if there’s

59:39

anything you wanted to make sure you left us with before we you know officially WRA uh and then hopefully we can do many

59:46

more of these and we’ll definitely be encouraging to the extent we haven’t already folks to check into your podcast

59:52

and other work uh I’m currently uh still

59:57

myself uh reading you know your Red Nation rising book so there’s you know

1:00:03

I’d like to I’m sure you know we would all like to continue this this this engagement

1:00:09

but yeah let me turn it over to any of you for anything really yeah I just want

1:00:15

to make a comment about the women in movement piece because I do think it’s really important and I also struggle with the idea that maybe it’s better for

1:00:22

them not to know certain women are running things so that they can you know lead it for a long time but there was a

1:00:27

really good parallel in the say nothing documentary on Hulu about the IRA that

1:00:33

heavily focus on the men too and they were using women for like strategy and

1:00:38

policy stuff and figuring out stuff in the background but no one ever suspected them of anything because they were always focused on the

1:00:45

men say nothing is great uh I don’t I don’t know to I can’t vouch for its

1:00:51

history I don’t know the history well enough to vouch for it but I will say the the series The the was great and the

1:00:58

the questions and topics even to Amber’s point there that you’re invited to consider as a viewer is is just just

1:01:05

delicious so I I would recommend you take some time in your and then maybe we

1:01:11

could you know do a part two with a comparison discussion I did back check a lot of the stuff it took me a very long

1:01:16

time to watch it because I I tend to stop watching stuff so I would stop it and like look up all the stuff about

1:01:22

what they were saying they really did call them the sisters of Terror they did do all those things like the hunger strike they did all of that and I think

1:01:29

they just just so much to learn about that type of movement like the way that literally no one ever would say anything

1:01:34

and they were able to go for so long without them even knowing what they look like like that’s a real actual powerful

1:01:40

movement that we don’t have the type of like dedication to currently mainly because everybody want

1:01:46

to be a celebrity activist on Instagram so that’s yeah yeah go ahead or yeah any

1:01:55

other well I was just I just wanted to say like you know um this is something that I didn’t want to do I never I never

1:02:02

wanted to I never wanted to I’m being honest I never wanted to do this work I’ve had conversations with people who

1:02:08

have lied to me you know before I’ve uh even you know started doing this

1:02:13

research i i i i as a as a historian as somebody who like kind of specializes in

1:02:18

oral histories I want to talk to people first because I think like people are say oh memory is bad blah blah blah blah

1:02:24

blah but I actually want to know how they understand the story like how it went down and it was mindblowing to me

1:02:31

by people who even you know who are telling the truth as far as I can tell their truth and also people who are just

1:02:38

explicitly lying to me um that nobody really just sat down and talked to some

1:02:43

of these folks you know uh to get their perspectives and this isn’t something

1:02:48

that’s like you know there’s somebody be like oh you’re trying to exonerate aim and I’m not trying to exonerate aim like

1:02:55

I that’s not my goal like as a researcher my my goal is to somebody who’s also been trained in journalism is

1:03:01

to is to get the facts the facts are just fundamentally wrong here um and as

1:03:07

somebody who you know we enter into this new phase of uh you know we’ve saw the

1:03:12

Standing Rock protest happen right and the level of FBI involvement in that

1:03:18

movement has not been fully accounted for the level of FBI involvement you

1:03:23

know one of the first things that these private military firms uh were concerned about was the Standing Rock movement’s

1:03:31

International connections its connections to Black lives matter its connections to the Palestine movement

1:03:36

these are all in the documents they want us to be domesticated isolated narrowly focused

1:03:45

in our movements and we’ve never been narrowly focused in our movements even the even the the the water protector

1:03:51

movement as as we know it today they were talking about Venezuela and sanctions on Venezuela as related to the

1:03:58

expansion of us fossil fuel infrastructure to choke out the largest

1:04:04

oil reserves in Venezuela to destroy their government you know and like we

1:04:10

recognize go Chavez is somebody who came in and gave us heating assistance you know when nobody else cared like we live

1:04:16

in some of the poorest places I I you know I was a beneficiary of that and not you can you can say whatever you want

1:04:23

but that you know at the end of the day you can’t eat idy ology you know and at the end of the day what warms your house

1:04:29

you know and this this narrative around the FBI and these State forces are

1:04:35

trying to destroy the very things that have given us hope uh that have moved history forward who have that have

1:04:42

provided opportunities and possibilities for us to kind of break these These Chains and these sackless and these

1:04:48

things that have confined us but for some reason the you know like I as

1:04:53

somebody who’s been involved in the movement like I I think I I take and I was I was reading some of Jared’s work

1:04:59

actually and before he came on the show and it’s like you know we this project of decolonization like I think it’s

1:05:06

becomes like a buzzword right there’s probably a documentary on that now that’s like all like you know about self-healing and stuff like that but our

1:05:13

minds are so colonized in the point that to the point that we can’t actually

1:05:18

imagine something you know in in the past or in in the present or in the future that is outside of these

1:05:25

conditions right and and I think that’s incredibly powerful to the point we’re believing the FBI that we’ve

1:05:30

internalized that narrative about ourselves um that we are misogynists you

1:05:36

know that we are killers that are here you know like that we cannot have Heroes we cannot have a revolutionary past or a

1:05:43

revolutionary present or a revolutionary future and to me that that’s the first thing that’s what colonization is about

1:05:50

it’s not just about colonizing the land it’s about taking away the sense of a future right and how how do you do that

1:05:56

you destroy the past um and I think that’s what this documentary does it’s the effect may not be the intention but

1:06:02

it’s the effect of it it completely obscures and obfuscates the Very issues

1:06:08

that the people uh at that time period were fighting for and even distorts the figure of anime aquat she was somebody

1:06:16

who’s ride or die aim at the end of the day and we talk about this in the in the in the the podcast episode we did and

1:06:23

everyone I’ve talked to had IM amount of respect immense amount of respect for

1:06:28

her as somebody who was you know who was Die Hard who would give her life and

1:06:34

it’s it’s sad to me it’s really sad for her children I feel for them you know like I don’t know what it’s like to to

1:06:40

grow up that way but the person that they’re trying to honor in that film is

1:06:45

not the person who she actually was um you know she so that so sorry no go

1:06:51

ahead finish finish Sor no no no and I’ll just I’ll just quote Hank Adams who is somebody you know he’s a he’s an

1:06:58

interesting figure at that time period you know he he was not entirely 100% aim

1:07:03

but he was down for the reped power movement he was militant in his own ways had his own faults but he said anime’s

1:07:09

ways were aim’s ways good or bad you know and he’s somebody who knew her and

1:07:16

I think we have to like wrestle with that fact you know you can’t you can’t

1:07:22

you can’t like just refashion her as some kind of martyr at the end of the day you know um you can’t refashion her

1:07:30

as somebody who was the victim of the very people who she was laying down her life for right because that’s not what

1:07:39

happened so that again that’s a powerful point that you’re making there well

1:07:45

several of them but one so I just want to so so how do you how would you recommend that that those of us less

1:07:51

familiar with these issues and these people view her and then aim are you so

1:07:58

so the claim that she yeah what is your so again what is your theory of what happened then and or

1:08:05

how we or or maybe the best way to approach what what happened in her case because that’s a very interesting point

1:08:11

that you’re making there about how she should or should not be remembered and what this film is or is not

1:08:17

doing I I think um just based on what I know and what what people have told me

1:08:23

and the evidence that I have seen I do think that uh Theta Clark was the person

1:08:30

okay who who who killed her but I also think Theta Clark was um somebody who

1:08:36

was deeply troubled uh because she herself was an FBI informant um according to these these the sources

1:08:43

that I have and I don’t make that claim lightly it’s something that I don’t you know it’s it’s not to say like oh

1:08:48

there’s like FBI informance everywhere but they did have sources and even in in these books they are talking to people um who

1:08:58

who are aim members who are just giving over information they’re becoming informants for the state whether they

1:09:04

are willingly knowingly uh doing that that’s what that’s what happens when you talk to the police you just become an

1:09:10

informant of the state and there’s something happening with your mic I think is that his mic that’s

1:09:17

doing this is it cracking okay yeah it’s cracking sorry I just it just got really bad there for a second oh that’s much

1:09:24

now oh perfect yeah um so they become

1:09:30

like they became like a lot of people were just doing these you know there was no like like hey I’m not going to talk

1:09:36

to the cops kind of thing um and so you kind of get a lot of this information

1:09:42

based on these uh these interviews that they have done but also people begin to change their stories because now they’re

1:09:49

implicated now they become sort of coerced into uh becoming key Witnesses

1:09:54

of the state and then out of it they craft this narrative that we’ve already covered but at the end of the day I

1:10:00

think it was a hasty I don’t think it was a it was a a planned out decision I think it was a hasty decision that they

1:10:06

made um that Theta Clarin made to kill her U and I think she was trying to get the legitimacy of people to to you know

1:10:13

to buy on to the you know to buy on to this thing people were just like like completely like what the you know what

1:10:19

the f is going on here and that’s what a lot of people say like I had no idea that this was you know this was going to

1:10:24

lead to this um but at the end of the day like think about

1:10:31

it the FBI was supposed to undergo reforms in the 1970s after Hoover right

1:10:36

especially around the way they handled informants but yet we have people like James Whitey bulgar who’s out there

1:10:42

murdering people as an FBI informant like probably hundreds of people you

1:10:48

have Greg Scarpa senior right all recruited at the top echelons right and

1:10:53

there’s no accountability within the FBI right there’s no accountability uh in terms of like murders as informants and

1:11:01

what does it mean there’s no statute of limitations on murder but why did they wait 30 years why did they wait 30 years

1:11:09

you know it’s it’s enough kind of like mental break in time to say like well you know

1:11:16

nobody’s going to look at the FBI but the doj in one of its own by its own admissions in the

1:11:22

90s stated very clearly one of the reasons why they didn’t want to prosecute these individuals is one

1:11:28

there’s no material evidence but also it lends legitimacy that this was an FBI coverup and from what I can tell it

1:11:35

actually was an FBI cover up I mean looking at even the way they described anime in like in 1976 in these in these

1:11:42

FBI documents a year after she her body was found and identified um they keep

1:11:48

they keep talking about her as an unidentified Indian female you know they keep referring to her as unidentified

1:11:55

girl unidentified female Indian unidentified victim so you know they

1:12:01

they they still hadn’t you know come to terms with like she’s identified she’s

1:12:06

you know this is the person this is the person who murdered her um so I think it’s it’s that like at the end of the

1:12:11

day it’s like it’s easier to just say we didn’t know what happened let’s let these you know these investigators these

1:12:18

hardnose investigators AB Alonzo and Bob eae solved the case that we refus to do

1:12:23

anything about from the very beginning Nick Estes thank you very much it’s been

1:12:31

great uh from the homework assignment to the analysis to the discussion it’s been great uh and like I said I look forward

1:12:38

to doing much more um thank you very much for joining us this morning yeah

1:12:43

thanks for having me no anytime and uh a historian you was doing you was doing

1:12:49

the big one I said you better give us all the facts you know line it up in a timeline oh I I just I just scratched

1:12:55

the surface and I texted Jed a little bit about this but there’s if you ever want to go a little bit deeper you know

1:13:01

it’s not putting the tinfoil hat a lot of this this is what I’m saying y’all a lot of This research is out in the

1:13:07

public I’m not doing anything I’m not like I’m not like drawing this big you know point a point B this is I’m I’m

1:13:13

using what the state has said about itself and and what it knew I’m not like revealing any secrets I’m just saying

1:13:20

like I’m using the documents are coming you know I’m not even I’m not even like weighing in on what people have told me

1:13:26

uh you know I’m just like using this is what the state said this is what they knew and and what they knew is doesn’t

1:13:31

line up with what happened do you go in more detail on your podcast about these episodes uh we do so yeah and I think um

1:13:40

we want to do another one based on uh it’s called a it’s just going to be called like pretendian informance because there’s a phenomenon

1:13:47

of uh mostly non-native folks claiming to be native uh infiltrating movements um going back to the aim days like Doug

1:13:54

Durham was white guy who claimed to be native we have the you know the the case of sirl Chapman I’m I’m probably going

1:14:00

to do a podcast episode on him because his his his his his impact on the movement at that time period was pretty

1:14:06

fascinating his connections are interesting as well he’s still around you know he’s still making documentaries

1:14:12

he’s rebranded himself but he was an informant too right oh yeah definitely

1:14:17

yep and it’s outed in the court it’s not like it’s not like I’m I’m making that speculation he’s the the lawyers the

1:14:23

defense attorneys for um Richard Marshall dick Marshall who was one of the people who were indicted but was

1:14:29

found not guilty kind of exposed this okay yeah I’m gonna look it up on

1:14:36

the podcast so yeah I saw the one you did on anime I didn’t know you did more

1:14:41

on the series itself oh no my plan my plan is to do another another episode

1:14:47

yeah probably won’t be probably won’t happen until after the New Year but I I just want to make I want to say one last

1:14:54

thing um there’s a lot of things happening right now uh with the FBI uh it’s on the

1:15:01

back foot you know Trump is coming to power and claiming to you know he’s gonna Chris Ray is stepping down but

1:15:08

it’s also at this moment you know we see Biden pardoning his son and then also uh

1:15:14

I think he he granted clemency to like I think it was like 1500 people well he he parted 1539 got C

1:15:24

right yeah and so like the political winds are are shifting in in favor of of Leonard

1:15:31

peltier’s clemency right now and want people to kind of be aware of that um

1:15:36

and that’s that’s not because of like you know Insider dealing at the White House that’s because everyday Grassroots

1:15:42

people have kept that campaign and that truth alive you know at the end of the

1:15:48

day you go to oala everyone knows who Leonard peler is everyone knows who anime was you know uh they loved her you

1:15:54

know she was cons part of the community there this is something like it’s almost as if it happened yesterday for them

1:16:00

it’s still embedded in in in that base of support that Grassroots base of support and at the end of the day that’s

1:16:07

all that really matters whatever Victory or whatever you know people claim uh you

1:16:12

know these policy shifts it happens because every day people have struggled laid down their lives sat in prison you

1:16:18

know and sacrificed uh for the freedom of our people

1:16:25

right on thank you very much we’ll make sure the link to the podcast is in the show description and invite people to

1:16:30

check it out and Nick thank you very much look the forward to talking with you again good care all right peace

oooooo