***
US President Harry Truman (1945-1953) stands next to a map showing the State of Palestine.
Israel is not real.
****
“I SWEAR TO BE LOYAL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF PALESTINE” SIGNED BY ISRAELIS WHEN EMIGRATING FROM EUROPE IN THE 1930s
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Lord Rothschild Claims His Family Created Israel
Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpZT5hEh8Q
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Alison Weir reveals the secret of Israel’s creation:
Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1807269838907224331
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UN General Assembly overwhelmingly calls for end of Israeli occupation
Read the resolutions text here: https://www.un.org/unispal/icj-and-question-of-palestine
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Genocide in Gaza through the eyes of Israeli soldiers | The Listening Post https://youtu.be/JAT9NQ4WkE0?si=l-k440biEskjrII8
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Genocide in Gaza through the eyes of Israeli soldiers | The Listening Post
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAT9NQ4WkE0)
For months, Israeli soldiers in Gaza have been documenting their own war crimes against Palestinians and sharing them on social media.
The Listening Post collected and reviewed hundreds of items. We asked three experts on human rights and torture to examine the material.
Feature contributors:
Basil Farraj – Assistant Professor,
Birzeit University Lisa Hajjar – Professor of Sociology, UC Santa Barbara
Sarah Leah Whitson – Executive Director of Democracy for the Arab World Now (DAWN)
Producers: Tariq Nafi and Elettra Scrivo
With thanks to: B.M., Younis Tiwari and Tali Shapiro
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for
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[Music]
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[Music]
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there has been a remarkable number of
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videos posted by Israeli soldiers on
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social media depicting themselves
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pillaging property mocking the death and
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destruction that they are causing and uh
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most egregiously uh torturing
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humiliating and mocking detained
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Palestinian
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[Music]
1:23
[Laughter]
1:26
Prisoners the images of mass arrests of
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torture of Palestinian iion of numbering
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their bodies which is reminiscent of
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images all of us have seen from
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Guantanamo and Abu these images are
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Testament to what Palestinians have long
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been saying which is that this this
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settler Colonial regime is utterly
1:43
violent they show the nature through
1:45
which this genocide is unfolding in the
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Gaza Strip they also show the extreme
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brutality and torture violence utter
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disregard of human life transforming
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these violent conducts into a spectacle
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to be viewed and watched on social media
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posts they lack specific intelligence
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about who actually might be Hamas and
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because they lack intelligence they
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therefore are rounding up everyone in
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order to hope to extract information
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through
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interrogation the fact that they’ve been
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stripped to their underwear is you know
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a manifestation of cruel inhumane and
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degrading treatment which is also
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illegal in addition to torture the fact
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that they’re photographing these things
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it’s like trophy
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shots what this depicts I think very
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vividly is dehumanization and torture
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you know the idea that somebody can be
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just like their body is just being
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attacked you know in their most
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vulnerable position his hands are bound
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behind his back he’s lying face down
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soldiers stepping on his face in a sense
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it
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epitomizes torture in general
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purposefully harming someone who’s in
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custody that custodial relation ship is
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a particularly vulnerable one where you
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know the custodians have all the power
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and the Prisoner who is in this case not
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only on the ground and tied up but
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completely powerless the images are
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showing us and telling us how Central
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imprisonment or carceral practices are
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to this settler Colonial regime the
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torture humilation uh and degrading
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conduct against Palestinians is not
3:24
simply restricted to the Gaza Strip
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there are also images and videos that
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have been circulating from the West Bank
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since October 7th over 7,000
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Palestinians have been detained which is
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a number unheard of over the past
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[Music]
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decade Israeli soldiers have quite
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remarkably taken to conver in their
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massive really
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unprecedented destruction of Palestinian
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homes hospitals mosques universities
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churches schools into entertainment
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[Music]
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videos there there’s one uh video where
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Israeli soldiers are showing some
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residential homes that they’ve set on
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fire and attached a
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[Music]
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song
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on there have been uh many many images
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of uh uh Israeli soldiers who’ve
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ransacked Palestinian homes and
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confiscated their personal Goods uh one
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in particular is the red negl that uh
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appears to be seen in so many Israeli
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videos where Israeli soldiers are
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mocking and
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advertising their very deliberate
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intrusion of the home of a Palestinian
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woman the confiscation of her most
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intimate apparel uh and flaunting that
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in a way that’s definitely intended to
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be provocative and humiliating the
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videos further reinforce a discourse
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that is coming out of every sector of
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the Israeli official Machinery where all
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Palestinians are the
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enemy many officials have said they
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deserve to be eliminated when you see it
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manifested in that kind of Jah deiv you
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know that soldiers are expressing as
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they destroy uh Palestinian homes and
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there is a consumption of this kind of
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image that kind of fortifies the anger
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the hatred the anti-palestinian
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sentiment and the kind of complete
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disregard of the humanity of Palestinian
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civilians there’s such a high level of
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confidence among these IDF soldiers that
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they can do whatever they want to say to
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the whole world look at what we’re doing
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to Palestinians in Gaza look at how we
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are brutalizing detainees look at how
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we’re
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humiliating every single man woman and
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child as we destroy their homes set fire
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to them uh and make fun of it uh and
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they are provoking and challenging the
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whole world uh to say we can do this we
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can get away with it and no one in the
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world can stop us no Israeli has found
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themselves sanctioned uh by the
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International Community by countries
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that have these tools which again has
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only reinforced the belief of Israeli
6:55
soldiers that they are immune that they
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are Exempted from from uh uh complying
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with International laws from basic human
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rights laws uh that they are above the
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law
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[Music]
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since the beginning of this genocidal
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War reservists have been called up and
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who are the reservists they are the
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entire proportion of the Israeli Society
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there are teachers professors students
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doctors Medics artists writers
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journalists these images they are not
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only directed to a small audience they
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are directed to a broad
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audience there’s a long practice history
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of racializing and dehumanizing
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Palestinians these images and these
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videos entirely show how Israeli
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violence is also not only directed
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towards Palestinian livelihood but also
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their material being so their houses
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their their belongings eliminating
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Palestinian existence history has taught
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us that the dehumanization of subjects
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is essential to the infliction of
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violence I think Israel has perfected
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this in discourse and in practice but
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this is not new it dates back to the
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beginning of this state through which
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Palestinians were expelled degraded
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humiliated killed and effectively
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forcibly
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disappeared thanks for watching now hit
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that like button and leave us a comment
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to let us know what you think about
8:51
anything that we covered this week don’t
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forget to follow us on Twitter does
8:55
anyone really call it x Facebook and
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Instagram for updates from the show
8:59
links are in the description
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Ilan Pappé: Palestine from Colonisation to Decolonisation (LSE Talk) https://youtu.be/KHBLQVxyJ9s?si=9MXAXKjNcagwjvjX
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Ilan Pappé: Palestine from Colonisation to Decolonisation (LSE Talk)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBLQVxyJ9s)
Join renowned historian Ilan Pappé at the London School of Economics (LSE) as he traces Palestine’s history from colonisation to its ongoing struggles for decolonisation. In this lecture from 10 June 2024, Pappé delves into how colonial legacies continue to shape the present and what the future holds for the liberation of Palestine. We also hear about the Palestine Encampment at LSE and the university’s complicity in genocide and apartheid.
Speaker: Ilan Pappé
Chair: Mahvish Ahmad
Introduction: Riccardo Jaede
0:00:00 Chair: Welcome
0:03:15 Introduction: Academia in Times of Genocide
0:11:10 Speaker: Palestine from Colonisation to Decolonisation
0:38:45 Q&A
Transkripzioa:
Chair: Welcome
0:12
trying to figure out who should start okay um all right uh good evening
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everyone uh my name is Mavish emmad and I’m an assistant professor in human rights and politics at LSC sociology and
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a co-director of LSC human rights it is my immense immense pleasure to welcome
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you to this evening’s lecture Palestine from colonization to decolonization delivered by Elon Pape
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[Applause]
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Prof he’s formerly the professor of history at the University of exer and director of the European Center for
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Palestine studies as one of the most important historians of the making of Israel and the ongoing nagas in
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Palestine Professor Pape needs no introduction his exceptional and
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critical historical scholarship and his role as a public intellectual challenging established myths left
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unquestioned in the mainstream media and by a chilling number of powerful Western
1:16
governments has placed him among the most important voices of his generation
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and one of the most urgent scholars in these very difficult and very dark
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times throughout his prolific academic career here and his public intellectual
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engagements he has authored so many books and essays that I simply do not have the time to mention all of them um
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so let me bring attention to just one the ethnic cleansing of Palestine this book published in 2006 is
1:50
today considered obligatory reading for anyone who wants to learn about the making of Israel and the systemic
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expulsion of nearly 500 Arab Villages and its 750,000 Palestinian
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residents based on before closed archives and very careful and meticulous
2:08
evidence collection it is an very very powerful read for his evidence-based critical and
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courageous scholarship Professor Pape joins other intellectuals who are coming under immense pressure and scrutiny for
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their commitment to truth and Justice first and foremost amongst these of course Palestinian intellectuals if not
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Palestinians as such who have long been telling us what went down in 1948 and what continues to happen in palestine’s
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ongoing nubas we have the honor of Hosting Professor Pape this uh evening thanks to
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the heroic efforts primarily of graduate students and staff across anthropology departments in LSC and UCL and I want to
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extend a special thanks to Ricardo Jade um at the LSC decolonized
2:55
anthropology Initiative for G for giving all of us this opportunity this evening
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but more importantly for organizing a sustained and incisive series on Gaza here at LS over the past few months so
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I’m going to hand it over to Ricardo now to say a couple of words about the
3:16
series thank you marish and thank you everyone who’s joining us today online or in person uh you didn’t come here to
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hear me speak so I’ll keep this very brief when the genocide began many of us were profoundly distressed by the
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Horrors visited upon Palestinians and the open unabashed if unsurprising backing of this intensified genocidal
3:36
colonialism by the global North but we were also suffocated by the an Institutional silence and silencing
3:43
backto back with the war in Ukraine when institutions companies and all sorts of manageri and political leadership were
3:49
elbowing each other out of the way to be the first to make public proclamations of also principle support the contrast
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to the genocide in Palestine couldn’t have been more Illuminating in fact it was almost blinding many of us but
4:01
non-white students and staff in particular felt deeply suffocated and alienated by the white Silence of our
4:07
departments and our institutions on this genocide reminding us of of amer’s
4:13
observation that Nazism was just colonialism internalized that is European colonialism applied to fellow
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Europeans so that the outrage of white Christians over the Nazi Genocide had less to do with the nature of the crime
4:27
which they were happy to inflict all over the world before during after the Holocaust and more with the nature of
4:32
its victims that it happened to fellow white people I know of many students who had to take time out who became ill and
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unable to function because of the live streamed Horrors in Palestine and because the official response here was
4:44
so suffocatingly clear that when push comes to shove their lives are valued less than mine that they must not speak
4:51
too loudly that they must not put Brown lives over white feelings that they must behave lest the law come down on them
4:58
we’re well aware the various histories of institutional complicity in colonial and Imperial violence both past and
5:04
present and we’re also aware that the UK and its high education landscape uh is a notoriously
5:10
anti-palestinian environment and more broadly racist sexist and ableist both politically and
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legally so it’s against this background that the initial idea for the series came to us in October and it was twofold
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one to help create a space for those feeling affected by the genocide and the white silence around it and two to be an
5:29
expression of the community of support we were creating support for each other and support for our siblings in
5:34
Palestine so to create events to educate ourselves and to share our resources and our scholarship with wder publics who
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share our concerns and who share our sensitivities the event today is an
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expression of the community we have built over the past nine months the community that stands up and fights back
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it includes the decolonized anthropology group and members of various departments at L and UCL including anthropology soci
5:59
ology the Middle East Center and Beyond it includes the courageous and Brilliant students from Palestine society and
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Islamic society in the ATC student union and all those students and staff at the encampment here at at we have taken over
6:11
this space visually precisely because this movement is loud and bold and Unapologetic in its demand for Life
6:17
dignity and equality what does it mean to have academic events in times of genocide
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what does it mean to teach and study in times of genocide it’s not the first genocide of our
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lifetimes uh but it is the most transparent the most Liv
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streamed the first event in this series was a reflection on the relationship anthropology has to Gaza the second
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event was an invitation really to think about the British arms industry uh in relationship to Palestine
6:48
and mobilizations against it the third event was uh talk on the history of and
6:53
the future of uh politics in the Arab world with relationship to Palestine and this event uh perhaps provides somewhat
7:01
of a overarching summative narrative from colonization to decolonization I would like to thank the
7:08
people involved in this series and the volunteers today our colleagues at UCL in particular Amar maksud brah inspector
7:14
and am Glazer um the LC Department of anthropology and the decolonized anthropology group as well as the ADC
7:20
Middle East Center and in particular yazan Doan and mayanka mukarji S alii
7:27
and many others our online moderators Jack mcin and Asana McManaman and our
7:32
stewards mer fromat salame Vias p and Ro Redfern and special thanks to all the
7:38
cleaners and staff who’s invisibilized and underpaid labor is indispensable to the functioning of this University and I would like to thank the
7:45
‘s senior management team for giving everyone Clarity on who is
7:51
who since 2021 students and staff have approached SMC with demands to divest
7:56
at’s money from Israeli aparted and management have done what they supposed to do they’ have been stalling ever
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since students have approached uh Senior Management again in January of this year with their own preliminary findings and
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they have been met again with stalling they told us our findings were wrong largely because of their own lack of
8:14
transparency so students and staff spent months researching ad’s Investments and produced a detailed 116 page report
8:21
while management kept stalling hence the encampment which is the key device to take the demand of our community and
8:28
back it up with power SMC has responded with more starting tactics to distract and divert with lies
8:35
about the encampment which it sends to the entire LLC our staff units keep having to send correctives about these
8:41
lies to the union members it has responded with threats of expulsion from the building and potentially academic
8:46
penalties it has responded with increased security control and surveillance in fact management uses the same CCTV cameras made by hick Vision
8:54
that Israel uses in the occupied West Bank according to Amnesty International nevertheless our negoti ators have
9:00
already won some significant concessions uh quarter of a million pounds for Scholars at risk from Palestine and
9:05
quarter of a million pounds for student scholarships for Gaza incidentally this is roughly the annual salary of the ‘s
9:11
new director including benefits so there’s that and it of course pairs in
9:16
comparison with the amount of money the school invests directly and indirectly in the following Fields one crimes
9:23
against the Palestinian people two investments in nuclear weapons three fossil fuels and four it invests in the
9:30
production and proliferation of arms it’s not far-fetched to argue that the LSC like most if not all
9:37
universities in the UK not only financially support the ongoing genocide and The Wider process of colonization of
9:43
which it’s a part they in fact profit from it these are investments of our fees and donations they yield money in
9:48
other words the school makes money off of the mass killing off of the bombs and bullets and off of the deliberate
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Erasure of the high education landscape of Gaza every single University in Gaza has has been obliterated its students
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teachers and staff murdered in the hundreds and in the thousands and our university has made money off of that
10:08
and uh this room and these microphones have been paid for with Palestinian blood and so this is an academic event
10:17
and this is what it means to do Academia in times of genocide we can remain silent about it and silence others or we
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can stand up and fight back with all means at our disposal and that includes educating ourselves and our siblings and
10:29
that includes love and solidarity and dignity in our fight for Collective Liberation the Palestinian movement
10:35
today yesterday and tomorrow the Palestinian struggle to be free like some of us and not others is a struggle
10:41
for equality Palestine is one of the many zones where our Collective humanity is being defended and it’s an honor to
10:48
be able to share in that struggle so to those on us those Among Us who call on us to tone it down as an activist and as
10:56
an academic I would say with love Victory to the Palestinian people
11:01
Victory to the international solidarity movement against colonialism and imperialism and therefore Victory to the
11:08
struggle for Liberation and equality and without further Ado please join me in welcoming again Elam Pape to our
11:15
[Applause]
11:22
University thank you
11:30
thank you uh it should be it should be on okay
11:36
great great uh to be here thank you for your invitation to this important series
11:42
of lecture that you are conducting it’s a great pleasure to be in yet another
11:49
University where the students are not just talking but also acting on behalf
11:54
of the Palestinians and their rights every University that has an En campus ment is uh contributing
12:02
significantly not only to trying and stop the genocide but also for
12:09
Liberation in the longer run so well done for every anyone who is involved in
12:14
it and uh I’m very proud to say that also our students in exiter are
12:20
steadfast in their encampment and uh it seems to be uh uh now spreading like
12:27
fire all over uh not only the global North but also
12:33
the global South I just got pictures from the encampment in Tokyo in seol uh
12:39
places where usually you don’t see large solidarity actions with the Palestinians
12:46
so uh hopefully this widespread Global solidarity would uh make this even more
12:53
effective as a tool to change the reality on the ground few weeks weeks
12:59
ago I was uh stopped at Metro airport in Detroit by two agents of the homeland
13:07
security who took me aside to a room and asked me all kinds of question including
13:13
about colonization and decolonization uh which I don’t think they fully understood what it meant but
13:20
they read from a paper and I said to them I need half an hour to explain to
13:25
you which was a mistake because of course it was on my time not their time time they had a shift they could stay
13:31
till midnight and I was tired after the flight from London but then I said well
13:37
I should have invited them here because here I’m going to give 30 minutes from colonization to decolonization maybe one
13:43
of them is listening through the YouTube if not we’ll send them the recording
13:49
because I didn’t fulfill my promise to them because I really wanted to get out of the airport as soon as
13:56
possible it is not easy actually for many people to talk about
14:02
colonialism or decolonization in the 21st century so
14:07
many of us colonialism is a period that more more or less ended in the mid 20th
14:14
century with decolonization that also has already been uh
14:21
completed and one of the uh major reasons for that kind of difficulty to
14:27
deal with colonialism in in the 21st century is because so many of the
14:33
colonialist projects that are still with us are a kind of a variety which I’m
14:39
sure you’re all familiar by now with a variety of colonialism the settler
14:45
colonialist uh variety to which Zionism
14:50
belong this is not a a a a period in history that can end when an imperial
14:57
power collapses or when colonialists are brought back home to the mother country as happened
15:04
in the case of the British and French and Belgian and Spanish and Portuguese
15:11
Empires no settler colonialism is a European phenomenon imposed on
15:18
non-european countries that is still with us in different varieties but it is
15:25
a colonialist first of all a colonialist project and by colonialism here we mean
15:32
that Europeans for good reasons for bad reasons because they were persecuted
15:38
because they were looking for opportunities it doesn’t matter what the reason right now is for whatever
15:46
whatever reason felt that Europe is not safe or is not welcoming them and they
15:53
were outcasts in their own eyes or by the Europeans and they were looking for a
15:59
place to recreate Europe elsewhere Unfortunately they usually looked for a place where someone else already lived
16:07
inhabited it and in order to recreate the Europe that they
16:13
wanted they needed to get rid of anyone who was not a European in the process
16:20
and we know that that kind of impulse uh which the late Patrick Wolf
16:26
used to call the logic of the elimination of the Native led to genocide in North America Central
16:33
America South America and in Palestine it led to the ethnic cleansing of the
16:41
Palestinians until recently and now to the genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza
16:47
so it is very important I think when we we talk about colonialism or
16:54
colonization in Palestine to understand that there are years of knowledge for
17:01
people about colonialism that really regarded as a closed chapter in history
17:08
and it it’s not even a rejection of the idea that you can accuse Israel of
17:14
colonialism of not it might look to them anachronistic to use a term that does
17:20
not F the modern times but I think if we insist on uh explaining what is so
17:27
unique about set colonialism uh we may find a way to
17:33
explain to people that this is an ongoing project the same scholar I mentioned
17:39
before the late Australian scholar Patrick Wolf also taught us something
17:45
also the late Edward S used to say that settler colonialism is a structure not
17:50
an event it’s something that it goes on and on until the main objective of the
17:57
settler Colonial project is is fulfilled or until it is defeated but if it’s not
18:03
fulfilled and if it’s not defeated the logic that I mentioned before of the elimination of the Native
18:11
is the main logic behind the actions of the settler Colonial project whether the
18:16
settler Colonial project is uh a project of building a state or a settler
18:23
Colonial project is maintaining uh estate now if we apply that to Palestine
18:30
you can easily see that um many of the Jews who chose Palestine is the place in
18:38
which they thought they would feel safer than they felt in Europe because of the
18:44
rise of anti-Semitism or they thought that they could be more of a normal
18:49
people if they Define Judaism not as a religion but as nationalism and for that
18:57
they needed the connection to to the Old Testament the Torah the Bible whatever
19:02
the motive was the objective was to create a European Western
19:09
Country exclusively Jewish from the very beginning now unlike probably some of
19:16
the settler Colonial project that were two or 300 years earlier we are talking about a period
19:24
where already the settlers know quite a lot about about the country in which
19:30
they want to build the new Jewish European country so many of them were
19:36
aware unlike some of the white settlers who came to to North America for instance in the 16th or 17th century
19:43
they were aware that there were other people living there in fact they sent a
19:49
lot of delegations and agents and uh uh read a lot about it and they knew that
19:57
the land was not empty and here comes the question if they knew that the land is not empty why one of
20:04
their most known slogan was that there were people with the land without a land
20:09
looking for land without people the reason is that they uh needed to
20:17
think sorry that the land was empty in order to
20:23
justify a moral action on their behalf cuz if you go to an empty length and and
20:29
take it over there’s no moral problem there if you go to an a land already
20:34
populated and inhabited where your own people tell you that there are towns and Villages people
20:41
who live there for centuries then you have a moral issue and you want to have a self-image of not only saving yourself
20:50
not only building a nation state but also doing it as a moral project that
20:56
was very important to them and you in order absurdly two things happened one
21:03
is they had to totally dehumanize the Palestinians in order to justify the
21:09
colonization dehumanization can either mean using scholarly help to define the
21:17
Palestinian as Nomads namely people don’t really belong to Palestine the sort of moving around so it wouldn’t be
21:24
a big deal uh if they would be moved even for the
21:29
project when we know that when Zionism arrived in Palestine in the late 19th century only 1% of the Palestinians were
21:36
Nomads so this was not working that well de humanization could also mean
21:43
beginning this kind of an orientalist project by explaining why these people are less
21:50
attached to the land why because they’re not European they’re not in the same level of uh civilization it takes form
21:58
in many ways but what is important is to understand the origin of this and the
22:03
origin of this is exactly because we are not talking about monsters we’re not talking about evil people they needed to
22:11
make sure that what was they were going to do would be seen in European eyes as
22:18
a civilized act and not as an act of barberism or
22:24
or or a criminal act cuz we have to we have to remember that uh unlike the
22:31
classical colonial projects they didn’t come to exploit the native people which
22:37
is what really characterizes colonialist classical colonialist project you want to exploit the people of the colony its
22:46
resources but also its human resources to enrich the Empire no they didn’t want
22:52
to exploit the people they wanted to remove the people they needed exclusive
22:57
Jewish Pres first of all in order to show that the project is moral later on in fact when
23:05
they were beginning when I say they I mean the leaders of the Zionist movement the main activists of the Zionist
23:12
movement when they begin to think about what kind of a state they would like to have towards the mid 1940s they said we
23:19
would like very much to have a democratic state was very important for them but in order to have a democratic
23:26
state that fits the settler IAL project of creating a Jewish nation state you
23:31
had to make sure that in the first election for the Democratic State the
23:36
vast majority if not all the people would be Jewish and that was the main motive for the decision when the mo back
23:46
probably the mid 1947 when it was clear that Britain would end its rule its 30 years rule of
23:54
Palestine that’s when the Zionist leadership began to think about massive expulsions of Palestinians ironically so
24:03
that the first election would have only a Jewish electorate um and uh uh it took them a
24:10
year to plan and a year to implement and uh is already was
24:15
mentioned by the end of 1948 the zanis movement was able to expel half of
24:21
palestine’s population destroy half of palestine’s villages 500 out of 1,000 roughly and
24:28
most of the Palestinian uh towns and on the ruins of The Villages they have
24:34
built Jewish settlements or they planted uh trees European trees of course
24:40
because they wanted the European countries so they imported pine trees from Europe and planted them on the
24:47
ruins of the Palestinian V Villages and created recreational parks uh instead of
24:52
of The Villages and in the towns themselves they massively destroyed Arab
24:58
houses so that the Arab character of the of the towns will not remain uh and
25:05
remind them of what was there before 1948 at one moment in 1949 they stopped
25:11
the destruction of Arab houses in Jaffa and hia and AKA because they suddenly
25:16
realized that it has a touristic advantage to have some of these houses
25:22
uh for people who come as tourists but in my own Hometown hia uh uh the the
25:28
Israeli Army demolished more than 230 houses in under the order of David
25:35
benuron the first prime minister of Israel who visited hii and didn’t like the Arab nature of the city that by the
25:42
way nothing unique here settler colonialism acts in this way it wants to
25:48
retransform the nature of the Native State uh into its own identity it can
25:57
appropriate the certain things from uh the native food folklore clothing words
26:05
as we’ve seen elsewhere right but not the people themselves and not the way
26:11
they lived uh the Israelis did not go as far as the Americans in calling the lethal
26:17
weapons in the names of Native American tribes that they have uh genocided
26:24
Apache helicopter a tomahawk missiles uh the Israelis did not go that far uh but
26:32
uh that is a symbolic Act of course which is not that important so in 1948
26:39
half of the people are expelled many of those who are expelled are still living
26:45
on the borders of the Old Country including in the Gaza Strip that was
26:51
created in 1948 by Israel there was no Gaza Strip before 1948 Gaza was a small
26:57
town very cosmopolitical where Jews Muslim and Christians live together and
27:02
because he was on the high on the Via Maris the road between Alexandria and
27:08
Alexandretta it it was very much influenced by a lot of cultures and so on Israel created the
27:16
tri the rectangle that you can see today which is Gaza because it had to push
27:21
into it hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that it had expelled during
27:27
the ethnic cleansing of Palestine most of the people they expelled in uh the
27:33
center of Palestine and the north of Palestine they were able to force them to move outside of Israel to the West
27:42
Bank in the East uh or east uh into Syria or in the north into Lebanon but
27:50
Egypt as today Egypt then different Egypt but with the same policy closed
27:56
its borders it was not willing to take even one Palestinian refugee into the
28:02
Sinai you know there is a bord between uh Israel and sa so Israel decided in
28:08
adverted Commerce to give up 2% of Palestine which is the Gaza Strip and
28:13
created it as the biggest refugee camp in the world in
28:19
1948 pushing hundreds of thousand of Palestinian refugees into it but it was
28:26
incomplete now the ethnic lens was incomplete for two reason one because
28:31
the Israeli Army was unable to expel all the Palestinians and therefore the
28:37
structure of settler colonialism continued and secondly because like all
28:43
settler Colonial movements in the world you always want more territory but you don’t want the people on the territory
28:50
you always have these two Dimension space and population geography and
28:56
demography and the 96 6 7 under circumstances which I don’t have the time to go into but Israel expanded the
29:04
territory occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip that it did not occupy in
29:10
1948 but if you occupy the West Bank and the Gaza Strip you incorporate almost
29:15
the same number of Palestinians at the time as you expelled so the settler
29:20
Colonial practice of elimination of the Native has not only to continue it has
29:26
to adapt itself all the time to changing circumstances 1967 is not 1948 1967 you
29:35
have already television you already have refugees that you want to expel again
29:40
and you have a very short war Six Days War and Israelis although they were thinking contemplating whether they
29:47
should repeat in 1967 in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip what they did in 48 decided against it
29:54
because the world was M much more attentive than in 19 1948 to what goes
29:59
what was going on so if you don’t expel the Palestinians you build all kinds of
30:06
methods and structures uh which we can see today in the West Bank in particular
30:11
to control millions of people who don’t want to be controlled by you who see themselves as the indigenous native
30:18
people and see the uh uh the the Israelis as occupier
30:24
colonizes uh ethnic cleanses and so on and and uh they fight against it
30:31
sometimes with an armed struggle sometimes by just staying as they call it in arabit sumud sometimes by asking
30:39
for an international pressure in is to make Israel a pariz state it doesn’t matter what matters is that the
30:46
anti-colonialist impulse is as strong as the colonialist one why hasn’t the
30:52
anti-colonialist impulse succeed you may ask after so many years well that has to
30:57
do with the imbalance of power the imbalance of power you cannot compare the power of the Palestinians to the
31:04
power of the Israelis because from the very beginning Zionism had an alliance
31:10
of Christians and Imperial powers and Colonial powers and Multinational
31:18
cooperation a very powerful Alliance that what forever whatever reason
31:24
genuine cynical doesn’t matter supported Israel against against the Palestinians
31:29
and the Palestinians had allies not very reliable ones the Arab regimes if you go
31:36
into a struggle don’t rely on the Arab regimes um the Muslim world I’m talking
31:42
about the governments not the people were also not particularly impressive in
31:47
their support one should say the only uh force in history that showed some
31:53
support for the Palestinian was the Soviet Union I’m not going to idealize the Soviet Union here but the only
31:58
people who really uh provided weapons training and some support for the
32:04
Palestinians was the Soviet Union but it there’s no Soviet Union and maybe it’s
32:09
also not the best ally in the world so uh but it’s gone doesn’t matter and but
32:17
you cannot eliminate really in 21st century people as maybe you could have
32:24
in the 17th century or 18th century so coming to the end I want to say
32:31
something about Gaza in this connection because we see both sides of the coin
32:38
here we see the colonization in its most brutal most brutal there’s no doubt
32:45
about it I lived through all this period I’m 70 years old uh I don’t remember
32:51
such level of brutality on the side of the Israelis nothing they did compares to what they’re doing now in every way
32:57
not not just the actions themselves but also the language that uh accompanies
33:04
what they’re doing so on the one hand the set the colonial project is still a structure that still continues the
33:11
indigenous people are still there on the other hand there is still the struggle of the indigenous
33:18
people and my feeling as an historian is that actually the
33:24
decolonization of Palestine has begun at the very moment that the settler
33:29
Colonial project is using its worst brutal methods against it and
33:36
historically this happened in South Africa it happened in Algeria uh there is a a horrible dcal connection between
33:46
the cruelty of the settler Colonial project and its uh shelf
33:52
life the brutality indicates that it’s very close
33:58
to its uh final days and not necessarily only because of the Palestinian
34:04
resistance and resilience there are many other reasons why it’s not working one of them of course and the most important
34:10
one is that you cannot impose yourself on millions of people for more than 100 years and believe that this is somehow
34:17
is going to work that’s for sure but it’s also not working because the basic idea of this settler Colonial project
34:24
that Judaism is a religion and that people can can become one nation just because they used to be belonging to one
34:33
religion is not working the secular and religious Jews in Israel are have
34:38
already been fighting each other before the 7th of October they’re even fighting each other now this is implosion from
34:45
within that is not going to work you also cannot sustain something if you
34:50
realize so much of one power superpower as strong as this superpower is it will
34:58
go through an isolationist phrase even under a
35:04
republican Administration and it’s not the only Power in the world anymore and and the
35:10
Civil societies are countering the powers of Empires now I’m talking here of long-term process I’m not talking
35:18
about the next because I’m very worried the colonization project in the next two years is going to be cruel brutal and
35:25
will not only focus on the Gaza unfortunately but will also already is moving towards the West Bank but it will
35:32
intensify the actions against the West Bank it’s very clear but in the I can
35:37
see the light if you want in the end of that tunnel and and the the light for me
35:43
is decolonization but what two sentences and with this I would end a collapse in
35:49
in a way I see the Zionist project of the state of Israel is a building that was already built with cracks in the
35:56
foundation what the 7th of October did it was like an earthquake it really gave a strong
36:03
blow to to to the struct to the foundation of the building and therefore the cracks have really widened and
36:10
that’s why it’s far shaky than it was the only problem is the one should not
36:16
the only one of the problem people should pay attention it that a collapse of a project does not necessarily bring
36:22
something better look at the collapse of Syria of Iraq of Libya in Yemen a
36:28
disintegration of a nation state does not necessarily bring a better political
36:34
structure unless there’s someone there to fill the void to take over to be
36:40
ready not when it happens but before and that’s of course the huge agency we’re
36:45
asking from the Palestinian national movement to get their act together to have a democratic and United and
36:51
consensual leadership otherwise they would miss the historical moment of the collapse uh and that can happen that can
36:59
happen and and collapse can continue and be a chaotic reality but I’m sure I’m
37:04
I’m very uh I have a lot of confidence in the young Palestinian generation that
37:09
they will build the right uh structure to move that leadership to
37:15
the Future and uh this is possible and this is not just possible for Palestine
37:22
this is necessary for what we call in Arabic the mashrik the Eastern Mediterranean the whole area of Lebanon
37:29
Lebanon is collapsing Syria is already disintegrated the hashemites I don’t I don’t know if anybody is relative of the
37:35
king here but uh do tell him that this is not going to hold on for very long uh
37:41
and and we need we need an IDE a an a political structure that would replace
37:48
the westan nation state that the colonialist power imposed on the Eastern
37:53
Mediterranean the mashrek in the end of the first world war we will need a political structure reflects much better
37:59
the collective identities of people their legacies and you don’t always have to buy in the western supermarkets ideas
38:06
for the future the area itself has a great reservoir of great ideas from the
38:12
past how to build a Live and Let Live a coexistence uh that would include a
38:20
Jewish group of people but not as zionists and not as ruling State and not
38:26
as a settler on your project thank [Applause]
38:43
you thank you so much uh Elan uh I’m going to go ahead and open it up right away because I’m sure there will be many
38:50
questions um yeah uh maybe we could take three or do we want okay go ahead yeah
38:57
there in there
39:02
yaza just top the button yeah uh thank you very much for a
39:08
really interesting uh talk uh I’m just kind
39:14
of trying to think about the different terms uh that have been used to describe
39:21
uh what is going on now and what has happened before you referred to ethnic
39:27
cleansing in 1948 genocide now Mavish she she
39:33
referred to nebas in in the plural uh something that you usually don’t do in Arabic um nakba is a kind of a
39:42
concept yeah yeah I mean it’s not a criticism but really kind of trying to
39:47
think about the concepts with which we analyze what is going on their historical emergence and
39:53
specificity um the Holocaust uh as uh the kind of paradigmatic event that gave
39:59
rise to the idea of of genocide that was applied uh retroactively to previous
40:05
events say you know we talk about the Armenian Genocide which was not described as a genocide back then um so
40:13
is there and you also mentioned settler colonialism which is a concept that comes from uh the scholarship on um
40:20
Northern America uh Australia right um is there a way to kind of uh theorize
40:29
a kind of a decolonial or anticolonial project from the uh you
40:36
know Palestine itself you know can can we theorize the neba for example as a as a concept that allows for imagining not
40:44
just what happened but what could happen um in the future um we had a question there right
40:53
yeah that’s you yeah go ahead you hear me
41:00
can you hear me now okay um so we are neighbors you’re from hi from Tamra so I
41:07
wanted you to uh I wanted to ask you whether you can speak about you spoke
41:12
about you know gazin and people in West Bank how the brutality is going to escalate for them I want you if you can
41:19
also reflect on escalations on Palestinians within the Israeli borders
41:26
and uh colonization of them or decolonization of them and whe what do
41:32
you think I’m sure you know how there’s a complete uh silencing now and a
41:38
complete surveillance over uh what they say and what they do in this uh genocide
41:46
or war or whatever you want to call it now and what do you
41:52
think how can they take part in in decolonization as well thank
41:59
you can we take one more yeah yeah we’ got two online oh we got two why don’t I
42:06
actually insert one question which is associated with yazan from myself um
42:12
this is what you get to do his chair prerogative yeah prerogative um
42:17
very short which is a recent article that was rejected I think from Harvard
42:22
Law review and published in Columbia Law review about theorizing the nuba potentially is International legal
42:28
category as a as something that fragments physically fragments if you could just also comment on that then
42:34
I’ll let you take these three yeah uh first of all the the question of uh
42:41
theorization of uh from within Palestine or using theorization uh from other
42:48
paradigms whether it’s the paradigms of genocide the paradigms of settler
42:54
colonialism uh I I think this is a dynamic uh uh issue and then maybe it also refers to your question um I’ll
43:02
give you an example uh uh I I’m now researching some uh uh uh chapters in
43:08
the history of Israel in the 50s and the 1960s and it’s very clear to me that the
43:15
Palestinian citizens in Israel these are the Palestinians who stayed in Israel after 1948 uh they call themselves s the
43:24
48 Arabs uh we’re talking about the the Israeli regime
43:31
as the occupation they didn’t talk about uh a military rule or they said we’re
43:38
second rate citizens or we live in an aparte State they said we’re under
43:44
occupation uh and and I think many of them would still think that they are under occupation in fact uh uh and and
43:52
and therefore we keep searching I think for for these uh this kind of balance
43:59
that you’re talking about from uh uh frame
44:04
Frameworks and definitions that emanate organically from the place itself from
44:10
the the region maybe from its history and civilization and those that help us
44:16
by comparative study by looking at other periods at other places to in order what
44:22
is the what is the main objective of these exercise is to try to clarify
44:28
accurately as we can what was going on for instance for me the word as As I
44:34
understood the concept nakba as a catastrophe this was like you know
44:40
something that a natural disaster nobody is responsible for a natural
44:45
disaster and that’s why I thought this is not a good enough term for me I respected the term because I knew so
44:52
many Palestinians and others are using the term and they know what it means but
44:57
I thought for most people in the world catastrophe would not be enough I said
45:03
there was a crime against humanity committed and there are criminals and there are victims and so I went to the
45:10
international legal vocabulary and I found ethnic cleansing and that’s why I
45:16
used I think I was the first one ever to use ethnic cleansing about 1948 because I said I know exactly who did it I I
45:24
know the names of the criminals by the time I wrote most of them were dead but doesn’t matter I mean I didn’t went to
45:31
to seek them in hell to to to sue them but uh but at least I wanted it for the
45:37
historical record that the names would be there if I would have written about the catastrophe you know people would
45:44
say okay you know as Benny Morris would say things happen in a war no things
45:49
don’t happen in a war the War was happening because of the crime not the
45:54
crimes were committed because there was a war the war was a crime planned by the
45:59
ethnic cleanser in order to have the context in order to get rid of the palestini so I think we’re still there
46:06
still looking I remember my my supervisor in in Oxford was the the late and great Albert kurani and he all the
46:14
time and this is a far more mundane issue but he he to the last day of his
46:20
life he wasn’t sure how to define in English the uh class of notables in the
46:28
Arab world the aan he said he always said to me you know I use the word notables but it’s
46:37
not good so I said okay so why are you not Professor Rani why are you not using something else I don’t have anything
46:43
else but I have to make sure that they understand in the west that this is not the
46:49
feudals that not the feudal of the West it’s a different kind of relationship between the rural notable and The
46:56
Villages the urban notable uh and he said this is a bad translation but nobody he said came with a better one
47:03
and and we’re still looking you know there all these kinds of thing Europe produced the knowledge for all of us
47:10
including knowledge of ourselves outside of Europe and we still speak in English
47:16
in order to tell them that uh as he did in English to tell them that they are criminals uh we we uh you know all the
47:24
dialogue groups in Israel uh are in Hebrew not in
47:30
Arabic all the dialogue groups in the west are in English and not in Arabic
47:35
it’s it’s this is the world we live in but but it’s it’s a good project now to the 48 Arabs the minority in Israel I
47:42
think that first of all they are also under great danger they’re already suffering after the 7th of October one
47:48
of the worst periods in their own life uh people are being uh suspended fired
47:55
imprisoned for just just uh uh tweeting uh uh support with the people in Gaza
48:01
they’ve never since the 50s they have never gone such such a period and I’m
48:06
afraid even for them it will be worse but I think what is really uh uh
48:11
problematic but huge challenge for the almost 2 million Palestinians who are
48:17
who have Israeli citizenship is that they political leadership believed for so many years
48:24
that they can play in both political Fields the Israeli political field and the Palestinian political field I think
48:32
the time has come for them to take a strategic decision they need to take a strategic decision playing in the
48:38
Israeli political field brought them no benefits whatsoever they need to play uh
48:43
only in the Palestinian political field but they’re afraid of doing it I understand it I’m not part of them I
48:49
don’t want to uh uh condemn something that I cannot do myself because I’m not
48:54
there I’m not them but I do think that this would be very important by the way not only in order to strengthen the
49:02
internal Palestinian debate they are really the only Palestinians in the world that know the Israelis not only as
49:08
settlers and soldiers and that leaves some hope for
49:14
reconciliation and more restorative justice in the future not just retribution because decolonization would
49:22
happen Palestine would be liberated the question is how and we don’t want it to
49:27
be violent uh not just for the sake of those who might be affected by it but
49:32
it’s also not good as France Fon told us for they colonized themsel to be a
49:41
colonizer again so uh this is a very important group usually uh forgotten uh
49:48
marginalized in the in the totally misunderstood in the Arab world uh but
49:53
definitely one to pay attention to definitely thank you let’s take um a question or
50:01
the two questions from online yeah and then one back there three oh now there’s three yeah yeah go
50:10
ahead thanks uh okay so there are three questions online I’ll just go through quickly hopefully I pronounce your names
50:17
correctly so there’s Michael Cole from Imperial College London asks for those of us working in faculty development to
50:23
help increase awareness and understanding of colonizing education and solidarity in embodying and enacting
50:30
it what would you focus on in the first session staff attend on the matter operating within the current confines of
50:37
the postcolonial capitalist University in London that’s question
50:42
one um question two uh parth Sharma a DEC Colonial writer from India asks my
50:50
question is that Gaza today has become a necropolitical paradigm in the process of decolonization then is there space for
50:57
coexistence between Palestinians and a majority Zionist state of Israel and I’ll there’s one more
51:04
question then we’ll we’ll take it back to you uh so this is from uh sori Kar
51:09
lecturer in economics department at soas University of London uh so he asks can
51:14
you identify what is the particularity of this settler Colonial project of Palestine that is different than other
51:21
settler colonial projects and what are the specificities of this projects that are shipped by the current context of
51:27
neoliberal capitalism yeah great uh for the first question uh it’s very
51:33
difficult to to know what how to start but I would suggest in many ways to uh
51:39
try and go back to the basics of how production of knowledge emerged on uh
51:48
the Arab world the Muslim world or what Edward S called the Orient uh maybe go
51:54
back to his work orientalism to start with and in order to understand uh that an
52:01
academic discourse an academic language uh by the West what what Stuart
52:07
Hall used to call the west and the rest the academic language on on the Middle
52:13
East uh has its roots in colonialism and imperialism and it was powerful not
52:20
because it had a certain vocabulary or certain images but because there were huge institutions
52:27
powerful institutions behind it it can be a very poor uh vocabulary not very
52:34
rich maybe not even logical uh maybe superficial but what matters is not the uh the quality of the
52:42
disc go far more important are who is sustaining it Zionism was a similar
52:48
thing because if if if you take the Zionist early
52:54
propaganda and you watch and you kind of read their first
53:00
interchange with people around the world to convince them uh to support
53:06
Zionism you understand that it could not have been the story that they’ve told
53:11
themselves I mean this the story that they used to live in Palestine 2,000 years before and therefore they are
53:18
entitled to Palestine even if someone else lives there this ridiculous claim
53:25
became powerful because very powerful institution supported it the Palestinian uh counter
53:32
claim was very logical they said we lived there for 1,000 years at least we are the majority we are undergoing
53:40
processes of modernization and nationalization we know what we want and you are anyway promising to give it to
53:47
anyone else after you dismantled the otoman Empire but nobody was listening
53:53
to them not in London not in Washington not in in Paris not because the claim
53:58
was not logic or didn’t even fit the Western ideas of of Enlightenment and
54:04
modernization no because they had no powerful institutions uh behind them so
54:10
so I think that that’s a good place to to start with um the second question I
54:17
got carried away so I forgot just give me a Quee second question was the
54:22
particularity of this settler Colonial project in Palestine third no that was the third but start
54:30
with the start start with that start with that remind me yeah see still not
54:36
total dementia if if I know it was the third that’s very encouraging uh uh you may not know where
54:44
the keys are but you still remember what they are for okay um uh right yeah there
54:49
are particularities and of course every settler colonal project has particularities and some of them are are
54:57
complicating not so much the story itself but definitely the way of solving
55:02
it so one particularity is the historical timing uh most settler colonial projects
55:10
uh started at uh at the time where uh it was not that difficult to think about
55:18
non-europeans as Savages uh as non-existing subhumans if
55:24
you want Zionism appears at the time where not only colonialism reaches a
55:29
peak but also anti-colonialism begins to be contemplated and seriously discussed
55:35
by uh uh people in the colonialist world not to mention the fact that the state
55:42
of Israel is established at the same year that the human rights declaration
55:49
is being uh uh uh declared and uh or or initiated that International legal
55:56
tribunals are being initiated so the historical timing brings a set of moral
56:03
values whether people genuinely believe in them or not which makes it very difficult to
56:10
justify uh uh the whole Zionist project whereas nobody looked for justification
56:16
to build the United States Canada Australia or or New Zealand for that
56:22
matter another feature is uh and the one that Israeli
56:28
historians like to to to to note is the fact that there was an a an endless con
56:36
a Timeless connection between the Jewish people and the land of Palestine Through
56:41
the Bible and nothing like that existed in other settler colonial projects so
56:47
first of all this is not entirely true uh if you look at the names of the first colonies that the white Europeans built
56:54
in the United States you can see that the name Zion appears a lot uh because
57:00
they did believe that this was the promised land as much as the Jews believed that Palestine was the promised
57:05
land uh uh the the Evangelical Christians and and along them alongside
57:11
them the Puritans who came even earlier believed that they were coming to to to Holy Land so Zionism is not the only uh
57:19
movement that used the a holy book and turned it into a political Manifesto in
57:25
order to justify colonization it was done elsewhere uh
57:30
but what what is really important of course that uh uh the whole connection
57:35
uh of of Judaism to to Palestine is not different from the Christian connection to Palestine the Muslim connection to
57:42
Palestine so you cannot really build on this uh maybe there’s a kind of an
57:47
interesting story that is well 93% true I I’m I’m adding 7% so as uh as
57:55
they in in fiction that is based on the but only with the characters um but but
58:01
it’s very indicative it’s very indicative uh it is actually a true story uh the
58:08
um in 1936 1937 uh Britain sent an inquiry
58:15
commission to uh Palestine one of many that was sent by Britain during the
58:20
mandatory period because they were looking for a solution and uh this was the most
58:26
important one probably because it happened after year into the Revolt of the Palestinians the really serious
58:32
Revolt of the Palestinians against Britain and its pro-zionist policy it was called appeal commission and the
58:39
appeal commission was about to come to Palestine hopefully the Britain from the British point of view would offer a
58:46
solution and uh uh the most important historian of uh the Jewish Community
58:53
tells in his Memoirs that’s why I’m saying I’m not sure how much of all of it was was there but it’s interesting he
58:59
tells that uh the story that um the leader of the Jewish Community David benuron tells him that in two or three
59:07
weeks time a British inquiry commission would come to Palestine to find out what
59:12
is the best solution for the conflict as they called it between the Zion settlers
59:18
and the Palestinians and uh uh Boran said I think it will be very helpful if you as
59:24
a leading historian would take a group of historians and would show that there was continuity of Jewish presence from
59:31
the Roman time until today the historian was very happy he said now I can get
59:38
maybe some resources he told Boran yes I can gather a group of historians and we
59:44
we will do this huge project we will show the continuity of Jewish presence and Boron asked him how long do you need
59:51
to prove that and he said well that’s a project of years of years maybe maybe 10 years you know it’s it’s a huge thing
59:58
different periods different languages said you don’t understand the appeal commission is coming in two weeks time
1:00:05
so you will prove that there was Jewish continuity you have afterwards 10 years to prove it if you want but you will
1:00:11
state that there was and I think this is the kind of uh uh of of kind of
1:00:17
relationship you had between what people would call the unique feature of the
1:00:23
Jewish settler colonialism the last one I would add and then we’ll go to the third question
1:00:28
undoubtedly the fact that Europe decided that the best way to deal with the
1:00:34
genocide of the Jews in the second world war was to uh build for the Jews estate
1:00:39
at the expense of the Palestinians is something you cannot find anywhere else that is true that is absolutely true the
1:00:47
fact that the west and not just the Europe the West as a whole decided that
1:00:52
the best way to do to deal with racism and genocide inside Europe of the worst
1:00:59
kind that happened for many centuries is by accepting the Zionist idea that was
1:01:05
already there that it would be better for the Jews uh to be in Palestine which
1:01:10
is an anti-semitic idea if you think about it Europe should have done its
1:01:16
outmost to tell the Jews we don’t want any one of you after the Holocaust who
1:01:21
leaves for Palestine is a total moral defeat of of our values as
1:01:27
Europeans but of course they didn’t they didn’t offer half of Germany to the Jews they offered most of Palestine to the
1:01:33
Jews this is uh something that uh needs to this is a genealogy we need to
1:01:39
revisit it’s very very important I just edited a book with a German friend and
1:01:45
we still suggested that Germany can offer a Jewish State I I can see already
1:01:51
the German police stopping the printer before it gets to the shops but we have
1:01:56
other means of trying to say to the Germans especially because the Germans are very pro- Israelis if you’re so pro-
1:02:02
Israelis bad in venberg is fine for me it doesn’t matter whichever country uh
1:02:08
as long as we can lift the oppression colonization of the Palestinians whatever nonviolent means as possible
1:02:16
yeah I missed the question so last one the last one is uh Gaza today has become
1:02:21
a necropolitical paradigm in the process of decolonization then is there space for coexistence between Palestinians and
1:02:28
a majority Zionist state of Israel yeah it’s it’s very difficult to envisage
1:02:34
life together uh right now between uh uh the Israelis and the Palestinians I I
1:02:41
assume when you live in Gaza it’s even more difficult to envisage any
1:02:47
cohabitation with the people who are genociding you that’s why I said the the 48 Arabs have a different experience as
1:02:54
Palestinian with Israeli it’s not all blood Bloodshed and violence there’s
1:02:59
also uh cultural economic business relationship it build some sort of a a
1:03:05
Future Vision um historically speaking uh I think that this is not the right
1:03:11
question whether they can or cannot no the the question is um how do we
1:03:18
challenge what I would call the peace Orthodoxy how do we challenge the basic
1:03:23
assumption on which the Western world has led us for 56 years into what it
1:03:28
called the peace process in Israel in Palestine the main exception of the
1:03:33
peace Orthodoxy which was born in the United States Israel Norway places like this that first of all Israelis should
1:03:41
always be the one who conceive the idea for a solution and the Palestinians should react so we should counter that
1:03:48
assumption to begin with the Palestinians should lead offer a vision and let the Israelis react for once cuz
1:03:55
for 76 years it was always Israeli or pro-israeli ideas in the Palestinian
1:04:01
reactor so that’s one and secondly it’s time for the Palestinians to tell us how
1:04:09
do they see the Jews in a liberated Palestine until now the conversation is
1:04:15
how Israelis are willing to envisage a Palestinian state or not a Palestinian
1:04:20
State a b toan the conversation is not how the Palestinian Visage the Israelis
1:04:26
but how the Israelis enig the Palestinians that’s the wrong conversation now why why why do I think
1:04:31
this is an answer to the question because finally there will be a clear message from the Palestinians to which
1:04:40
is to something we can call the third generation of settlers and there will be kind of an
1:04:47
idea of what kind of collective identity of Jews in the liberated Palestine does
1:04:53
not constitute a threat a settler Colonial threat to the indigenous people
1:04:59
very much as like desmont n Mandela was seeking in the relationship between the whites and the and the Africans and as
1:05:07
you know what they suggested was to call the whites in South Africa another tribe in order to include it in the revised
1:05:14
history of South Africa yeah now if I would give this lecture in Israel the
1:05:21
Israelis would say to me you know this is suicidal for us this the end of
1:05:26
Israel first of all it is the end of Israel I mean yes absolutely Israel is
1:05:31
going to end the question is how how how it’s going to end what will replace it
1:05:39
what will replace it and uh I suppose that if we are talking about and right
1:05:47
now we can talk only about principles nobody has a clear program but we know which programs don’t
1:05:53
work like the two-state solution that has already been been dead for many years but uh the body was in the morg we
1:05:59
were never invited to to the funeral but that the two- State solution is dead for many years now so we can talk about
1:06:07
principles now of equality first of all the most important thing that is absent
1:06:12
from all the peace proposals is equality so equality is is uh of all kinds social
1:06:19
justice economic justice but of of course equality between everybody who lives between the riv and the Sea and
1:06:28
you can build these principles and you can imagine and that I I take it into
1:06:33
granted to take it for granted that quite a lot of Israeli Jews would say under such
1:06:40
circumstances by losing all the Privileges that we have uh but not being
1:06:46
finally realizing that are in the Arab world and not in Europe uh may maybe some of them would say or many of them I
1:06:53
don’t know would say this is not for me especially they have options to reignite life elsewhere fine quite a lot of white
1:07:01
people left South Africa in the post aarte era so so the question is not how
1:07:08
would two people live together given the killing field that we are watching here
1:07:14
the question is who would who would lead the way for a different future and who
1:07:22
would be willing to live in that different future which is not a Zionist State a different
1:07:29
kind of a state and not everything is Sol soluble immediately I mean it’s not just Jews and Arabs who have to decide
1:07:36
how to live together religious people and secular people have to decide what kind of Live and Let Live they have
1:07:43
different communities I mean there’s there lot of challenges ahead none of that is going to be easy but we want to
1:07:51
start talking about these things because for 56 years we didn’t talk about the the real issues we talk about the
1:07:58
irrelevant issues thank you um we had a question back
1:08:11
there hello um so my question is about um I was reading actually some of your
1:08:16
Works a while back and uh there’s something which not many people know but like I was thinking just go ahead and
1:08:21
introduce yourself oh sorry I’m M I’m a master student at LSC so my question is about uh you know how in the 1940s you
1:08:29
can correct me if I’m wrong there was a Zionism was not actually what it is today a lot of like it consisted of a
1:08:36
lot of like minority Jews and they were actually anti- state anti-israel so I just wanted to know that what was that
1:08:42
like and how that translated into what Zionism looks like today which is like secular colonialism thank you um we can take two
1:08:49
more questions yeah uh over here and then back there
1:08:56
um thank you very much um please do introduce yourself Sunil Kumar social policy at her SE uh no other book
1:09:04
angered me more than the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and something very Vivid there stuck in my mind about
1:09:10
the surveillance and the village files you talk about in 1948 uh my my question was much more
1:09:16
about your the light at the end of the tunnel uh and he spoke about the cracks in the Zionist uh and the settler
1:09:23
Colonial project and he also said that the next couple of years are going to be quite brutal and I wanted to ask you in
1:09:30
the next couple of years are we going to have the same silence not just from the governments in the north but also from
1:09:37
the south I mean uh looking at India for example and how India has been kind of
1:09:43
actually weaponized this whole process in terms of its own kind of angst with
1:09:48
with Muslims um and and so on and so forth thank you thank you back there
1:10:02
hi I’m enam I’m a PhD student at the geography and environment uh my question is about uh
1:10:09
the history of future so you were talking about uh the earthquake uh we are quite far from the epicenter but we
1:10:16
can still we are still shaken all over the world and uh it seems this settler
1:10:22
Colonial project is not just in Palestine it’s all over the world because because when we try to divest
1:10:27
boycott or sanction it we we feel it in every bit of our life everywhere so it
1:10:33
has expanded like unlike anything else and the holy Unholy Alliance that’s
1:10:39
behind it is pretty much controlling all of us so this allyship that has gone
1:10:45
throughout the world with encampments and many other ways how do you see the future of
1:10:52
this thank you uh first of all the the the question about anti-zionists uh before
1:10:59
1948 uh first I think it’s it’s true to to and it’s important to uh revisit the
1:11:07
history of Zionism until 1948 and to realize that it started as a minority
1:11:13
view among Jews uh around the world most of the Jews in the world did not subscribe to
1:11:19
Zionism uh either they were uh very religious Jews who believed that uh
1:11:25
Zionism is tempering with God’s Will and therefore they didn’t support the the
1:11:31
colonization of Palestine or they were uh uh influenced by socialist and
1:11:39
Marxist ideas and believe that an international Revolution would solve
1:11:44
anti-Semitism on any other kind of racism or they were liberals who
1:11:50
believed similarly that the more liberal Democratic world would solve race ISM
1:11:55
including racism against Jews in Palestine itself it was always a
1:12:01
minority position it was either Orthodox Jews who remained loyal to this idea
1:12:07
that colonization of Palestine is against God’s will uh and they saw
1:12:13
themselves as guests of the Palestinians but not as colonizers of the of
1:12:19
Palestine but it’s a minority view inside it was even in the’ 40s it was a minority views
1:12:26
uh nonreligious Jews who were anti-zionist within the Zionist project
1:12:31
were very uh small in number I think the voices are very important because they led the foundation for the kind of
1:12:38
conversations that we we have today I think now talking about the cracks in
1:12:44
the building one of the important cracks in the building is the way that the younger Jewish generation around the
1:12:50
world does not associate Judaism anymore with Zionism not not only that they even
1:12:56
see their uh uh role as as supporting the solidarity movement with the
1:13:01
Palestinians as an uh as an indication or as a manifestation of their new
1:13:07
relationship with Zionism many of them coming from families for where Judaism was easily equated with Zionism so
1:13:15
that’s a very important uh uh development that I think would have huge influence on the realities uh in Israel
1:13:23
in Palestine not by itself but these are discrete kind of indications that
1:13:28
eventually fuse together into a powerful I think transformative moment that will
1:13:35
happen and and that relates to to both uh the questions on this side which I
1:13:40
think have something similar in it I think we are first of all both of you
1:13:45
are right there is a global Dimension here to the question of Palestine and therefore I recently have been talking
1:13:53
about two kind of alliances that Clash uh in the world I one is global
1:14:01
Israel and one is global Palestine Global Israel is the kind of
1:14:06
Alliance that supports not only Israel it supports set the colonialism in Kashmir it supports uh uh arban’s
1:14:14
fascist policy in Hungary uh and I can give a long list of projects that what I
1:14:20
call Global Israel supports uh but but the support for Israel is the most important one because
1:14:26
supposedly in the case of Israel they’re supporting a democracy and that’s kind
1:14:31
of the idea is that it projects to the other less Savory projects because after
1:14:38
all we are here supporting the only civilized Democratic country in the Middle East but Global Israel is is made
1:14:46
of Christian zionists some Jewish communities multinational corporation
1:14:52
military industry securitization uh industry fascist right-wing parties
1:14:58
that have done so well in the European Parliament election uh the other day
1:15:04
Hindu Vita people in in India that brought moodi once more uh uh to power
1:15:11
and bolog the the the kind of right-wing politics that sometimes emerge in Latin
1:15:17
America and even in central Africa so so there is global Israel what is important
1:15:23
is global Palestine because Global Palestine all the time increases Global
1:15:28
Palestine is uh Civil Society together probably with some countries in the
1:15:33
global South that inject uh uh back
1:15:39
certain moral values into politics they’re unwilling to accept that
1:15:44
politics is just a a combination of cynical interest that really where
1:15:50
morality is used only to uh to gloss over the real interest and so on and a
1:15:57
what is so unique about Palestine I think that first of all Palestine has not yet been
1:16:03
decolonized and because it hasn’t been decolonized I still hope that its decolonization would lead to
1:16:10
postcolonial entity that would reflect a different kind of politics and it
1:16:16
doesn’t matter whether you want a different kind of politics because you are worried about the ecological policies of the government the policies
1:16:23
towards poverty towards social justice and so on there is one place there where
1:16:29
you think maybe maybe there uh the void can be filled with something that we are
1:16:35
genuinely thinking about as a better world as a better world and and uh Global Palestine is is has transformed
1:16:45
enormously in the last few years it took time for African Americans to support
1:16:50
the Palestinians because in their churches they were told that the Jews are the slave aves of of Africa uh still
1:16:57
some of them some of their preachers say this that they have to support the Jews because the Jews are are like the slave
1:17:03
the African slave who came to to the United States but this has changed in the younger generation africanamerican
1:17:10
Native Americans the first nation in Canada in Australia in in New Zealand
1:17:15
trade unions in Latin America people around the world struggling for their
1:17:21
own Justice see Palestine as a lmos paper as a kind of manifestation of all
1:17:28
these struggles put together and that’s a powerful energy what is why do why am I
1:17:35
optimistic about it because you can say okay it’s not powerful enough to challenge what I call Global Israel
1:17:41
because I’m I have a different reputation than most people have for what happened in the icj the
1:17:46
international court of justice and the IC the international criminal court this also is based by talking to
1:17:54
judges is there what the icj and IC did they
1:18:00
decided for the first time not to heed just to pressure from government for the
1:18:06
first time they said let’s have a ruling which shows you by the way the Justice
1:18:12
domestically or internationally is politics there isn’t objective Justice I hope you are W woking up to this idea
1:18:19
long time when you were born um but it depends which politics influences the
1:18:25
Justice there’s no objective just none of the judicial decisions of domestic or International courts are objective or
1:18:33
professional only so they decided that their politics would reflect for the
1:18:39
first time what they believe the Civil societies all around the world would
1:18:44
have loved an international tribunal to uh uh decide on a question like
1:18:50
Palestine and that was the main reason that they allowed a certain language that was not allowed before if someone
1:18:57
would have told you 10 years ago that the icj would talk about genocide or the ICC would look at the Israelis As
1:19:05
Leaders as criminals nobody would have believed you that this was possible now this is not changing the reality on the
1:19:12
ground because they don’t have the power of sanctions but we should not look at their power of sanction I’m not an
1:19:17
international jurist so I’m talking here as as an historian what we should look at is their idea to reflect a moral set
1:19:26
of value that is not that of the political Elites when it comes to Palestine and that’s highly highly
1:19:33
important it’s not good enough news for the people of razza it’s not good enough for the people of the West Bank and not
1:19:39
good enough for the Palestinians inside Israel or the people in South Lebanon but it is the beginning of that Journey
1:19:47
that leads me to believe that there is a light there in the end of the tunnel because it’s it’s an upgrade from the
1:19:53
Civil Society on the way to the centers of power where decisions are being made
1:20:00
and hopefully one day would would be made I also see in this light the recognition of Palestine by Norway Spain
1:20:07
and uh uh Belgium I don’t I don’t 10 years ago I was against it I said why do
1:20:14
the Palestinian need the world to recognize the bant to which is the greater rala that will be called the
1:20:20
state of Palestine it’s it’s humiliating it’s offensive Ive state of Palestine 10
1:20:27
years ago but I think this time the recognition is not about the borders of
1:20:32
Palestine it’s recognition of the idea of Palestine because there’s a fear that the genocide is trying to erase
1:20:40
Palestine is an idea and that’s another very positive uh uh uh development uh
1:20:46
and therefore this will take time and I think that uh this kind of set of values
1:20:52
and the redefinition was International or not will also affect India will also
1:20:57
affect other places where we feel that right now there is a tide of History
1:21:03
against forces of justice and and Progressive forces but I we are maybe
1:21:08
historians have more patient because we see macrohistorical processes and the macrohistorical process is is is not
1:21:16
always the one that is micro the one that is immediately seen and I think there is there is of course it’s one
1:21:23
scenario out of many but we are not just observers of these processes we can
1:21:29
contribute to their success and that’s very important to remember one final round I’m going to
1:21:36
write here yeah uh yeah go
1:21:43
ahead um hi I’m zadia from sociology Masters um I was just wondering um
1:21:50
you’ve told us a very um specific story here that encourages hope I think um but
1:21:57
also of the history of Israel and recently we actually had a different
1:22:03
story from a visitor at the LSC Benny Morris um and I was just wondering what
1:22:08
you might have to say about the um platform given to voices like Benny
1:22:13
Morris’s in moments like we are in right now yeah go
1:22:22
ahead my question is actually very linked to uh what our colleague said um
1:22:28
basically it’s been very validating to hear the history of uh the establishment
1:22:34
of the state of Israel because it seems as though even the
1:22:40
bear saying and um explaining what happened concretely seems to be up to
1:22:46
debate um when we still have survivors of the nakba that are alive today so the
1:22:52
my own grandparents are older than the state of of Israel so these stories and
1:22:57
the way that it happens is still Vivid and it’s still um very much a discourse
1:23:03
however even on that discourse it seems that there is an General Amnesia where
1:23:09
every single thing that happened since 1948 or even before 1948 comes out of
1:23:16
the imagination of Palestinians the imagination of a potential Palestine when the very Balor Declaration was
1:23:24
actually saying that it was in Palestine so even the idea of Palestine is contested um and my question is
1:23:31
obviously with the genocide in Gaza Not only was is it a genocide there’s an ucide there’s an Eide there’s a whole
1:23:37
Erasure of history of Heritage of cultural
1:23:42
heritage of knowledge with archive centers being burned to the ground with
1:23:48
libraries and hundreds of thousands of books burned to the ground with um information um workers have been been
1:23:55
killed Scholars killed academics killed so how do we engage in a way that this
1:24:03
history is not forgotten and we avoid the both sidest narrative that would
1:24:09
diminish and normalize the fundamentally asymmetrical relationship of power just
1:24:15
like it happened at LC where until today as you said that the idea of a two-state solution is that long time ago but it
1:24:22
seems as though it’s very much under table in this very institution that is the leading institution in political
1:24:28
science thank you um back there that’ll unfortunately have to be our final
1:24:34
question um yeah I was just wondering there seems to be like increasing talk
1:24:39
of war with Hezbollah um coming in the US and Israeli media and political
1:24:45
establishment and was wondering whether you think yeah what what do you think about the prospects of that actually
1:24:51
happening um and if it does happen what does that mean for the sort of time scale and Dynamics for the decline of
1:24:57
the Zionist project that you’ve spoken about thank you um yeah I I think that
1:25:04
absolutely uh denialism or denial denial of the nakba
1:25:12
is still going on is still going on and ironically Benny Morris who in his first
1:25:18
book the birth of the refugee problem his the evidence he G gaed should have
1:25:25
helped us to deny to to struggle against the denial of the nagba is one of the
1:25:31
biggest NBA deniers uh today not because he says that anyone talking about the
1:25:39
expulsion of the Palestinians is lying because they say it was morally right uh
1:25:45
to do so I wonder if a university like LSC would invite someone who would deny
1:25:51
the Holocaust I think they wouldn’t allow David Irving to give a lecture but you
1:25:57
can’t deny the the knb unfortunately so we need to struggle against it although
1:26:03
I founded the first ever Center for Palestine studies in the Western University the University of
1:26:09
exiter I still feel that you cannot do it properly in the university and for
1:26:15
that reason I created with friends uh a movement called the nakba memorial
1:26:20
Foundation which is a charity in Britain you can see the website nagba Memorial
1:26:25
Foundation which uh focuses in the struggle against the nakba denial our
1:26:31
hope is to establish in London a building that be a center against nakba denial the many Center against Holocaust
1:26:38
Denial in the world there’s not one Center against nakba denal we’re going to establish it in London London for
1:26:45
various reasons and obvious reasons why Britain has to be reminded of the end of
1:26:50
the nakba denial we are also salvaging docu doents that Israel has closed in
1:26:57
2016 and we’re putting we digitize them and put them on the website you can already see them not all of them of
1:27:03
course just a kind of an example so I would say uh we need to insist that a
1:27:12
nakba denial is like a holocaust denial and we should struggle not only in the
1:27:18
University but outside the university against the nagba denial I had a very interesting uh the correspondence with
1:27:27
the chair of the charity Committee in Britain when I suggested of opening you
1:27:33
know you need you need a license to be a charity and the first reaction they
1:27:39
denied as the right to have such a charity claiming two things that the term nakba is political you know you
1:27:45
cannot have a charity which is political in Britain so they said the term nakba is political and the term Palestine is
1:27:52
questionable so I wrote to him and I said I’m giving you a week before I go to the foreign office which recognizes
1:27:59
that Palestine exists uh and uh we start a campaign that Britain does not
1:28:05
recognize the Palestinians or or the nakba luckily and that’s something that
1:28:10
changed because of the 7eventh of October they retracted their uh uh first
1:28:16
reaction and they allowed us to have the website they they keep looking I know
1:28:22
all the time to see if it’s politic politics not that anything cannot be politics right I mean going to the
1:28:28
toilet in university is politics so so uh I mean this is ridiculous but
1:28:34
nonetheless they have a certain definition of politics but what is important is to continue this this
1:28:40
struggle and not to give up and and and and it’s part of of the struggle for
1:28:45
Liberation undoubtedly it’s a very important struggle for Liberation we are doing this uh uh and as I say I thought
1:28:53
we can do it in where knowledge is produced universities universities have
1:28:58
their own limitations of knowledge production so sometimes you need an independent that that’s my idea that you
1:29:04
need an independent institution and hopefully this would uh uh uh we will be
1:29:09
able to do it so look at the nagba memorial Foundation website see what we’re doing we are calling for people to
1:29:15
help us in the struggle against nakba denial I’m sure we’re not the only ones I’m not taking here an exclusive role
1:29:21
but this is one of hopefully many uh uh uh initiatives uh which brings me to the
1:29:28
last question it was the last question right isbal yeah oh my God
1:29:36
yeah um first of all there is already an attrition war between hasbalah and
1:29:42
Israel uh hundred of thousand Lebanese in the South have left South Lebanon
1:29:50
many villages are half demolished hundreds of thousand Israelis left the
1:29:57
galile half of their places are demolished so to talk about will there
1:30:02
be a war between Israel and hasbalah there is a war between Israel and hasbalah I think what you’re talking
1:30:09
about is would it escalate would Israel invade South Lebanon I think it
1:30:15
will I think it will uh but I’m not sure I’m not sure I’m
1:30:22
very I have to be careful with these addictions because there’s a way of stopping it of course and there is this
1:30:29
ironic kind of clock between Gaza and and Lebanon if the Israelis would
1:30:36
declare that Gaza or the war on Gaza is successful
1:30:41
then they would move to the north if they will feel that they need another year to fight uh the Hamas in Gaza then
1:30:49
they would not go not escalate the war
1:30:55
a lot depends on the International Community watching this do they allow it to happen uh it’s very worrying let’s
1:31:02
let’s put it this way without being a prophet saying exactly how it would unfold but you you I will finish because
1:31:10
you you said something which I which I think you meant and I agree whatever
1:31:15
happens there is another crack in the structure there another crack I don’t
1:31:22
know if it’s as big as the other cracks I I think there are in this structure or in the Zionist structure in Palestine
1:31:29
it’s another crack that would we will see the beginning of the end of this
1:31:34
project and I always warn people the beginning of the end is a very dangerous
1:31:40
period it’s not a very optimistic one it’s not a very nice one exactly because
1:31:45
it’s the beginning of the end I wish there were good news about that but I think it’s it’s where you gather some
1:31:52
courage and op optimism because you understand it’s the beginning of something that could end much better or
1:32:00
much in a different way so we should double and triple our
1:32:05
efforts to stop the genocide they don’t people in razza in the West Bank don’t
1:32:10
have time for my optimistic scenario to unfold they’re thinking about tomorrow
1:32:16
and the day after tomorrow we’re doing a lot I know we are all doing a lot but we
1:32:21
need to do more if if we have not succeeded in stopping one killing in Gaza or in the West Bank uh it’s
1:32:28
frustrating but it means that we should we we we need to think more
1:32:35
creatively uh uh jointly and so on and believe that we have the power we have
1:32:41
the power to do this because uh one thing people in Raza need is our not
1:32:47
just our solidarity but our actual help uh because uh the imbalance of power is
1:32:53
still such that no one really comes to their aid and they are totally
1:33:00
defenseless uh in front of an army with all the Cutting Edge Weaponry that
1:33:06
Britain and the United States keep applying to them thank you very much for your uh solidarity
1:33:13
[Applause]
1:33:32
thank you very much and thank you to uh Professor Pape and Ricardo and the rest
1:33:38
everybody who’s organizing especially a big round of applause to all of the students at the encampment
1:33:44
[Applause] [Music]
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”The outstanding faults of the economic society in which we live are its failure to provide for full employment and its arbitrary and inequitable distribution of wealth and incomes.’‘ -John Maynard Keynes
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‘‘Coming up with the money is the easy part. The real challenge lies in managing your available resources—labor, equipment, technology, natural resources, and so on—so that inflation does not accelerate.” –Stephanie Kelton
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We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal chracteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NAT0, maybe being a BRICS partner…
Gogoratu ondoko hauek:
Estatua eskatuz (Reclaiming the State)
MTM (Moneta-Teoria Modernoa), behin eta berriz
Hona hemen gehigarri adierazgarri batzuk:
Aspaldi honetan, NATO dela kausa, “Europar Distopia versus Europa (EFTA, kasu)” delakoaren ordez, hauxe proposatzen dut: BRICS delakoan sartzea, EFTA-tik BRICS-era
Euskal Herria: independentzia (2024)
Poiesisa, poesia, sormena: Independentzia
Gehigarri orokorrak:
MTM (Moneta-Teoria Modernoa), behin eta berriz
Moneta-Teoria Modernoa (MTM): Bill eta Warren-en abentura bikaina
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MMT: Modern Monetary Theory
Understanding how money works so that we can address climate change easily and prosperously plus address AI’s impact on humanity.
Members: https://x.com/i/communities/1672597800385921024/members
(…)
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