Randall Wray-ri egindako elkarrizketa.
G: Ikusten al duzu beste finantza krisi bat horizonte hurbilean?
W-k: Bai, oso laster.
G: Laster? Zergatik? Iruzurraren erantzukizunagatik?
W-k: 2007tik gaur arte egin dugun guztia beraiek bermatzea izan da. Baita beraiei esan egiten ari zirena berriz egiteko ere. Krisia baino lehen lan handi bat egiten ari zineten, beraz, egin gauza bera berriz.
G: Zeintzuk dira frogak?
W-k: Higiezin errealeko merkatuak.
G: Uste duzu merkataritzazko higiezin errealean izango dugula gainbehera bat? Izango ote da etxegintza burbuilaren hondamendia baino gogorragoa?
W-k: Nahiz eta nik ez ikertu merkataritzazko higiezin erreala etxe hipotekak bezala, ibiltzen bazara erosketa gunetan zehar ikusten duzu merkataritza guneko erosketa guneak porrot egiten ari direla, zeren kontsumitzaileak ez baitira erosten ari lehen erosten zuten moduan. Espero dut gastuak moztuko dituztela, beraz, bertan arazoak azalduko dira.
G: Uste duzu hurbil dagoen finantza krisia espezifikoki etxegintzan izango dela? Horretan zentratuko da?
W-k: Ez. Uste dut arazoa ikaragarri handia dela. Segur aski, etxe jabeen %50a urpean daude, hortaz arazoa itzela da. Ikasleen maileguak eta kreditu txartelak ere arazo handiak dira. Hortaz, sektore horien inguruan ariko da krisia.
G: Zer pentsatzen duzu gobernuak sor dezakeen zor handi baten barkamen planaz? Uste duzu gobernuak zerbait egin dezakeela zor handiak barkatuz? Ikasle maileguak Altxor Publikoaren kontabilitatean daude. Steve Keen horretaz aritu da (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IJjlYj4siU) eta gobernuak teknikoki boterea dauka ikasle mailegu guztiak barkatzeko. Ez dakit hori egin daitekeen kreditu txartelaren aferan. Uste duzu horrek arazoak konpon ditzakeela?
G: Fed-eko nagusia izango bazina, zer nolako politika monetarioa izango litzateke zurea?
W-k: Fed-en lan egiten duten %99,9 kaleratuko nuke. Programatutako robot bat jarriko nuke gaueko interesaz aritzeko.
ikuskatzea eta erregulazioa Fed-etik kenduko nuke. Erregulazioa Altxor Publikoan jarriko nuke. Hori izango litzateke Fed-ren politika. Ez dugu behar gehiagorik.
Fed-k egin duen bakarra gaueko tasa moldatzea da, zeinak ez du inongo eraginik ekonomian.
G: Hortaz, Paul Volker-ek (Fed-ek nagusi ohia) inflazioa gutxitzeko interes tasa gehitu zuenean, esaten ari zaren aurka al doa hori?
W-k: Haiek beti handitu dezakete gaueko interesa.
G: Horrek inflazioa gutxituko luke?
W-k: Ez dut uste. Ez dut uste inongo frogarik dagoenik hori frogatzeko.
(Hona hemen Wray-k dioena Volker-ez, inflazioaz, petrolio-prezioez eta finantza krisiaz.)
G: Austriako ekonomialari asko banku zentralen aurka daude. Horren aurka zaude? Zer gertatuko litzateke baldin eta Fed edo banku zentral bat kentzen baduzu?
W-k: Esan bezala, robot hori programatu behar dugu, orduan behar duguna hauxe da: Fed azken baliabideko mailegu emailea izatea.
(i) Jende talde bat behar da erreserbak hornitzeko, zeintzuek teklatu sakatzearen bidez egiten diren.
(ii) Jendea behar duzu, hatz erakuslea erabiltzeko, teklatu sakatzearen bidez erreserbak banku balantze orrietan ezartzearren.
(iii) Azken baliabideko mailegu emailea behar duzu, banku panikoa geldiarazteko.
Hori guztia sinplea da oso. Ezagutzen dugu nola egin, XIX. mendetik: “The central bank lends without limit at a penalty rate against good assets and you stop a bank run by doing that.”
Fed-ek egin behar duen beste gauza bat kontuak garbitzea, konpentsatzea da.
Banku Zentral (BZ) bat beharrezkoa da. BZ barik, banku pasiboak ez dira garbitzen batzuk besteekiko.
G: Azken galdera hauxe da: ez al dago lekuren bat balore eta etikarako Finantza Teoria Modernoan eta ekonomia neoliberalean? Zeintzuk dira baloreen eta etikaren rolak ekonomian eta DTM delakoan?
Ezin dut ekonomian, edo beste edozein zientzia sozialetan, aritzea balorerik gabe.
Finantza sistemak helburu publikoa zerbitzatu behar du.
Are gehiago, gordailu asegurua daukagu, aktiboak txarren kasuan. Likidezia dela eta, azken maileguko baliabidea daukagu. Zerga-onura eskema pilo bat dugu, aurreztaileek zerga-abantaila bat lortzearren.
Hortaz, helburu publikoak finantza sistemaren muinean egon behar du errotuta.
 Ikus http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2014/04/mmt-policy.html. Halaber, ikus http://sevenpillarsinstitute.org/news/economics/failure-orthodox-economics-interview-l-randall-wray eta http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/2014/04/23/mmt-does-do-policy/.
 Izan ere, ingelesez: “There are some activities they have not been doing only because they can’t find a market for their products. The private labels home mortgage securitization market completely disappeared because we know the whole thing was completely fraudulent before, so no one would buy the securities. The only securities being sold are the ones that are government guaranteed. There are some things they are not doing, because we told them they can’t do them anymore, not because they do not want to do them. No one is to stupid enough to buy those products right now. They’re doing plenty of the other stuff they were doing before the crisis. All of that returned and the economy is not recovered. In fact it is now starting to slip back into recession, the evidence is accumulating things are getting worse fast.”
 In fact, “People proclaim that we had a recovery in real estate markets. Okay so what was this recovery? It was all based on hedge funds buying up real estate with the idea they would rent the properties for a while. So they would become slumlords, rent it back to the people who lost their houses, illegally by the way — all of those houses were stolen. They rent the houses back and wait for prices to recover and then sell them. So this was the idea. They have already exploited that strategy. That type of demand for housing is gone and it was the source of the real estate demand. This source is already exhausted, so real estate markets are going to start collapsing. Households still have almost as much debt as they had before the crisis. They are still massively over indebted.”
 Ingelesez: “People cannot sell their houses, they can’t move. This prevents them from getting jobs, because they can’t move out of areas with no jobs to areas that might have some, and increases the incentive to walk away, to go ahead and default on the mortgages. So that is a huge problem. “
 Ingelesez: “But student loans are a huge problem, that’s $1 trillion, credit card debt is $1 trillion, consumers are just over indebted and they can’t make the payments. So it probably will be across all of these sectors.” (Trilioi amerikarra = 1012.)
 Ingelesez: “I think that substituting student loans with college grants is a good idea, as well as forgiving loans that students have, maybe forgiving 50 cents on the dollar or something like that and lowering the interest rate. I went to college on 3% interest rate national defense student loans and 50% would be forgiven if you went into jobs with a public purpose, like teaching in public schools. They would forgive 50% of your student loans. I think those sorts of policies are good.”
 Ingelesez: “I think we should add an immediate five-year moratorium on home foreclosures, just say zero. There will be no home foreclosures for the next five years. That would stop the home theft. I think most foreclosures are home thefts. The banks are making up the documents. There is no proof that anybody owes anything out there because the banks have destroyed all the documents. We don’t know who owns the property. We don’t know who holds the right to collect mortgage payments and we don’t know who, if anyone, has any actual legal right to foreclose on homes so we just need to stop those actions. It depresses home prices; it destroys communities when they foreclose, and of course it destroys the families too. So just stop it; and then we can work out how we can give debt relief on the mortgages.”
 Alegia, “I would have a robot that was programmed to keep the overnight rate at 50% of 1%, at 50 basis points, half of a percent interest. I [would] charge on loans of reserves by the Fed and pay 25 basis points on reserves held at the Fed, and that’s it.”
 Ingelesez: “That’s all we need. I would move all the supervising and regulating out of the Fed, because the Fed for the past three decades has shown no interest whatsoever in regulating and supervising financial institutions so we need to take regulating from the Fed and put it in the FDC and OCC at the Treasury. That would be the Fed policy. Don’t need anything else.”
(On the Treasury, FDC (Funds from Dedicated Collections) and OCC (Office of the Comptroller of the Currency), see http://www.treasury.gov/about/budget-performance/annual-performance-plan/Documents/2013%20Department%20of%20the%20Treasury%20AFR%20Report%20v2.pdf.)
 Ingelesez: “The Fed can’t do any of the things that most pundits believe that it can do. It cannot fine-tune the economy, it cannot hit money targets, and it cannot hit inflation targets. Some people are proposing that it target nominal GDP, which is ridiculous, it can’t hit a target GDP. There is one thing the Fed can do. It can hit the overnight rate, that’s it, and monkeying around with that rate has been shown, without any question at all, as being not useful at all for influencing the economy in the direction that we want.”
 Ingelesez: “If you are willing to go Volker on the economy and push the overnight rate above 20% you can cause a financial crisis and you can put debtors underwater. Make them insolvent because their interest payments explode upward. They can’t make payments and they start defaulting on loans so that can possibly cause a crisis deep enough to stop people from spending, which eventually can break inflation, but the cure is far worse than the disease.
Volker’s cure was far worse than the disease. The inflation we had when he came into office would have disappeared anyway. Inflation was dissipating already because it was due to food, energy and the shelter components of the CPI prices rising. Oil prices had quadrupled in 1979. It takes awhile for a huge increase of energy prices to run through the whole system. Obviously prices are going to go up if you quadruple oil prices, because oil goes into the production of everything. If you just give it time the inflation automatically comes down, just like it did in 1974. It took awhile, but inflation comes down. So fighting inflation caused by oil and food price shocks by causing a massive financial crisis that morphs into a very deep recession is a crazy way to fight inflation.”
 Ingelesez: “The Fed operates the most important clearing mechanism so banks have to clear with each other and with the government. We still need to do that. The combination of these policies insures bank liabilities always clear at par, that is a one-dollar deposit at Bank of America equals a one-dollar deposit at Chase Manhattan. The Fed ensures that by providing reserves, the clearing mechanism and by being a lender of last resort when necessary.”
 Ingelesez: “What the Austrians either don’t understand or think is not important is that without a central bank to do this, bank liabilities do not clear at par. We tried doing without a central bank in the US. We were the last major country to develop a central bank. We tried operating a banking system without a central bank and it was a disaster. You never knew how much a bank check would be worth. You didn’t have par clearing but you had bank runs. We had the worse banking crises because we didn’t have a central bank. I obviously am very critical of the Fed, but you have to have a central bank. We just don’t need a central bank to do what people think it is supposed to do – fight inflation for example; we don’t need a central bank to do that because they cannot.”
 Ingelesez: “If it was not then there should be absolutely no government assistance and backup to the financial system. But we recognize that the financial system has to serve a public purpose and that is why we have a variety of backstops for the financial system.”
 Abantaila horiek, “… encourages them to save more and run stuff through special tax advantage type savings schemes, retirement accounts, and so on. We do all that because we think there is a public purpose in the financial system. You know, providing retirement savings for example. So I think that you have to be looking at the public purpose.”