From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (131) eta Jeffrey Sachs

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

“Don’t Trust Trump, Align with BRICS…” Top US Economist Jeffrey Sachs’ Message to PM Modi

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpEqmZnOjEo)

Jeffrey Sachs is an American economist, academic, and author known for his work on poverty, development, and climate change. He teaches at Columbia University and has advised many governments and the UN on sustainable growth.

In this interview with ANI’s Naman Yadav, Sachs calls Trump’s tariffs stupid and warns that India should not depend too much on the U.S., but strengthen ties with China, Russia, and Brazil. He explains why the Trump-Putin Alaska meeting failed, why the U.S. is not addressing the root cause of the Ukraine war. He also shares his views on Gaza and speaks on Trump’s hesitation to take on China in a trade war.

Timestamps

• 00:00 – Coming Up

• 02:02 – Introduction

• 02:22 – Trump’s Tariff Threats

• 10:35 – Strain on US–India Ties

• 15:04 – Trump’s India–Pakistan Ceasefire Claims

• 19:09 – Asim Munir’s Nuclear Threat to Indja

• 22:14 – Why Trump Hates Brics

• 24:23 – Trump Extends China Tariff Truce

• 28:32 – India–US on Trade Deal

• 31:26 – Trump–Putin Meeting

Transkripzioa:

Coming Up

0:00

Is the Russian oil really the bone of contention? Or do you think there is more than meets the eye? President Trump is delusional. The US

0:07

exercised the dominant power for so long that it thinks it can boss every other part of the world around. This makes no

0:14

sense. It’s not true. Uh it is failing. Putting on this search charge on India

0:20

was as stupid as could be from any it serves no purposes. Trump hates the

0:26

bricks. Why? because they stand up and say to the US, you don’t run the world.

0:31

He compared tariffs with surgery. He said, and I quote, the operation is over. The patient lived and is healing.

0:39

Do you think the surgery went well, sir? Everything about the tariffs is wrong. It’s destructive for the US economy. It

0:46

violates international law. It is a breakdown of our political system in the

0:51

United States. Trump’s policies are doomed to fail. How should India deal with Trump? Don’t

0:57

trust the United States. Don’t believe that India is going to slip in and

1:03

replace China in the global value chain. No way Trump would have that happen.

1:10

Trump’s a protectionist. If you were Indian Prime Minister, what you would have done? But I personally would do exactly what

1:16

Prime Minister Modi is doing. He’s lying to meet with President Xiinping. He’s meeting with President Putin. He’s

1:22

meeting with President Lulu. Those are India’s real partners. Is Trump afraid of a trade war with

1:28

China? Where Earth’s US consumer, a US economy? The US can’t win a trade war with China.

1:35

He wants a peace deal as soon as possible, which is not happening because Putin is not giving him an edge. uh

1:41

making an ultimatum to Putin, when Russia is winning on the battlefield and

1:46

when the war was provoked by the United States and when to this moment the US

1:51

will not admit publicly that NATO should not enlarge to Ukraine even to this day.

2:02

Hello and welcome everyone. I am Nami Yadav and you are watching ANI interviews. Jeffrey Saxs is an American

2:09

economist, academic, and author known for his work on global poverty, economic development, and climate change. He’s a

2:16

professor at Columbia University and has advised governments and the UN on sustainable development. Hello,

2:22

professor. Thank you. Thank you for having a conversation with ANI. The United States has warned of India of

2:28

more tariffs if the meeting between President Trump and Putin doesn’t go well. How do you see this pressure

2:34

tactic that if you are not going to accept the ceasefire deals that I have to offer, I’m going to hit your friend?

2:40

It’s bizarre. Uh very self-destructive of US foreign policy interests. Years of

2:48

improving relations between the US and India are being thrown out the window

2:53

before our eyes. It’s a shocking level of incompetence. uh when I see

3:00

incompetence in the US government, I’m I’m never surprised. But I’d say that this reaches levels that I have to admit

3:08

actually surprise me. I still remember when President Trump was imposing these tariffs on countries,

3:14

he compared tariffs with surgery. He said, and I quote, “The operation is over. The patient lived and is healing.”

3:22

Do you think the surgery went well, sir? Everything about the tariffs is wrong in

3:28

that it’s destructive for the US economy. It violates international law.

3:34

It is a breakdown of our political system in the United States. We have a constitution. We don’t have one person

3:42

rule. Under the constitution, uh, article 1, section 8, tariffs are the

3:48

responsibility of the US Congress. There’s actually a lawsuit now in the US

3:53

appellet court which says that Trump has violated the law uh by imposing these

3:59

tariffs. There’s a real possibility that Trump’s entire tariff regime will be

4:06

deemed as it should be unconstitutional. Now I have to quickly add that our

4:12

courts are failing us in the United States. We are moving towards one person rule. So, we’ll see whether the

4:18

constitutional order actually holds. But by any sensible uh and honest uh juristp prudence, uh

4:28

the courts would say that this is a grave overreach of power by one person.

4:36

Uh you can’t just declare an emergency and do what you want in the US

4:41

constitutional order. But that’s exactly what Trump is doing. He’s uh thumbming

4:47

his nose at the Constitution, at the Congress, and at the courts, and it

4:52

remains to be seen whether he prevails within the US political system. Having

4:58

said all of that, from an economic point of view and a geopolitical point of

5:03

view, Trump’s policies are doomed to fail. They will not improve the US

5:11

economy. uh they will isolate uh the United States geopolitically.

5:16

They will strengthen uh the Brits and other groups who will say that the

5:23

United States is not only not an ally, it’s unreliable

5:30

and operates with impunity on its own. Is the Russian oil really the bone of

5:36

contention or do you think there is more than meets the eye? Why do you think President Trump is going after Russian

5:41

oil? Well, I think there are a few things. First, uh President Trump is delusional.

5:47

Uh he thinks he can make demands and that others will exceed to it. Uh that’s

5:53

a personal quirk, but it also is an institutional uh and cultural quirk of

6:00

the United States more generally. The US exercised the dominant power for so long

6:06

that it thinks it can boss every other part of the world around. This makes no

6:11

sense. It’s not true. Uh it is failing. But that is a belief both of Trump as an

6:18

individual and the American political class. The second, it of course does

6:23

relate to uh Ukraine in some way, which is that Trump thinks he can dictate the

6:32

terms of peace. Uh what he can do and should do is to say that the United

6:38

States is not a party to this war because the United States not only has been a party to the war in Ukraine, it

6:44

has been the major provocation of the war. This war came about because the

6:50

United States attempted to ban NATO and overthrew a Ukrainian government in 2014

6:56

for that purpose of NATO expansion. It’s a long-term strategy, a reckless and

7:03

failed one. And it should end, but Trump

7:08

is not politically smart enough or determined enough or brave enough to end this

7:16

debacle. So instead he’s beating up trying to beat up on on India. There’s a

7:21

third part to it though. If you look at where the real animus of the United

7:27

States lies, it is towards Russia, China, India and Brazil. Uh and South

7:34

Africa by the way though South Africa is less of a great power than uh the first

7:42

ones that I mentioned. Trump hates the bricks. Why? Uh because they stand up

7:47

and say to the US, you don’t run the world. Uh the world is multipolar. Uh we

7:54

want to cooperate with you, but we don’t want you to run the world. President

7:59

Lula summarized it best. He said, “We don’t want an emperor.” Uh this is

8:05

basically the point. Uh Trump thinks he’s an emperor. The US is not the world

8:12

imperium. uh though it thinks of itself in that way and this is partly animous

8:19

against uh the bricks. I have said this for many years in India. I warned Indian

8:30

leaders, if I could put it that way, who said, “Well, this relationship with the

8:36

US is good. It’s strategic. It’s important.” I was never a fan of India

8:43

saying, for example, that it would be part of the Quad. I think this is a very bad idea. I think India is so big, so

8:50

important, such a great power. It should say we don’t ally with the United States

8:56

against China. We have our own relations. We need our bilateral

9:01

relations with China. We don’t join a US

9:06

clearly military group that is an anti-China

9:12

initiative. I think in any event, India and China need to work out their bilateral

9:18

relations because if they can get on a stable basis, nothing could be better for the world uh than a good strong

9:24

positive relation between China and India. So all of this I was saying for a

9:30

long time don’t trust the United States. Don’t believe that India is going to

9:36

slip in and replace China in the global value chains. No way Trump would have

9:45

that happen. Trump’s a protectionist. India’s not going to see a massive

9:50

expansion of Indian exports to the US, even if they’re merely replacements of

9:56

China. Trump is a protectionist and an unreliable

10:02

trade counterpart. So in any event, what’s happened has surprised me because it’s so clumsy, uh, so self-destructive

10:12

of US objectives, but it doesn’t surprise me from any fundamental values

10:18

point of view because from a fundamental point of view, America was not the

10:24

trustworthy partner of India. India needs its own foreign policy not as a

10:32

somehow under the US wing. That’s absurd. Professor, uh, in your opinion, how

10:37

should India deal with Trump? Here in India, some opposition leaders have asked Prime Minister Modi to hit back

10:44

and you know slap retaliatory tariffs. Is India in a position to do that? If

10:50

you were Indian Prime Minister in a hypothetical world, if you were Indian Prime Minister, what you would have done?

10:57

Well, first of all, none of this is a final story because maybe this summit in

11:04

Alaska is a love fest and Trump says, “I

11:10

suspend temporarily any search charges on India because of the good outcomes in

11:16

Alaska. Everything’s possible.” So I think India is right. Take a deep

11:21

breath. Don’t do anything dramatic. Uh don’t get too vuperative. But I

11:26

personally would do exactly what Prime Minister Modi is doing. He’s flying to meet with President Xi Jinping. Uh he’s

11:34

meeting with President Putin. He’s meeting with President Lula. Those are India’s real partners by the way. Why?

11:42

uh not only are is the bricks uh plus the fast growing part of the world uh

11:49

the more dynamic part of the world economy but it’s also the part of the world that says we don’t want an emperor

11:57

uh we want multi-polarity and we want multilateralism so I’m a believer in the bricks uh as I

12:05

said I’m a believer in India and China solving its real issues between the two

12:12

because if there was strong trade, mutual respect, the settlement of the

12:18

Himalayan border issues and so forth between the two, this would unleash a

12:23

huge amount of economic progress, mutual investment, mega trade, tourism,

12:32

wonderful things. And I like it because for the rest of the world, you’d have two countries that constitute almost 40%

12:39

of the world population working together to make a new multilateralism, which I

12:44

think we really need also. So I think if India and China get together, it’s much safer for me as an American uh a much

12:51

more sensible world than the delusion of a US-led world. So all of this is to say

13:00

the real message uh is not by tuperation and beating the drums and so forth. You

13:06

know I would be careful right now Trump can change his mind and the the tariffs

13:12

have not exactly gone into effect at least as I understand it. There still is

13:17

the summit meeting ahead, but I certainly would strengthen the bricks relationship because India’s been a

13:25

little bit cautious about that. Well, we don’t want to get too close cuz America is our friend. I think the message from

13:32

all of this is really the bricks is India’s friend. Uh, it is. Why? Because

13:38

it’s it is the basis of a new multilateralism and China’s not the enemy. Russia

13:46

certainly a normal partner of India in many different dimensions in trade in

13:52

oil in military and security in the bricks diplomacy and so forth. Um so all

14:00

of this is to say I would pursue active diplomacy. Fortunately the India China relations I

14:08

think are getting on a better track and I would try to

14:14

pursue that. I’m saying to the Chinese support India as the sixth permanent

14:20

member of the US security council then we really have it made because then we

14:25

really create the multilateralism that’s needed. So I want China to reach out to

14:30

India in the same way that India should reach out to China. But I think the message is clear. The quad, I don’t like

14:38

it. Don’t play games with the US visa v China. Uh don’t expect to be the

14:46

replacement of China and the US supply chains. Don’t look to the US market as

14:51

the main uh export market for India. It’s not. It’s going to be the rest of

14:57

the world outside of Europe and the US that will be the fast growing part of the world. base strategy on that.

15:04

How do you professor describe Trump’s mind? Is he truly somebody’s friend and why is he so unhappy with India? Do you

15:12

think after operation Synindor he made so many claims that I brokered the peace between India and Pakistan which New

15:18

Delhi denied multiple times? Do you think it did not sit well with him because he is someone who is wanting to

15:26

have a peace Nobel peace prize. Pakistan has backed him, Armenia has backed him and Azarbaan is backing him and like

15:34

does what does he really want a peace prize or he just he just wants he’s

15:39

someone who just wants a transaction everything for him is just a profit and loss it’s the latter and India does not

15:46

loom as large in Trump’s mind as it does in the mind of Indians so from

15:53

everything that’s happening in the last days and weeks it looks like Trump is ganging up on India. But I think it’s

16:00

important to understand Trump is ganging up on everybody. Trump has no friends.

16:07

Uh he threatens. He could have followers. Uh he could have temporary uh

16:14

partners in something but he’s not even temperamentally

16:19

psychologically someone who has strengths.

16:24

Even it said in general of countries, countries don’t have friends, they have interests. Trump’s interests

16:31

overwhelmingly are his personal wealth and global agilation. Uh and uh I don’t

16:39

believe I argue with people. I had an argument yesterday with a very knowledgeable interesting person. I say

16:46

Trump has no strategy. He said, “No, no, no, no, no. He’s he’s got backers who are thinking very strategically.” I

16:53

said, “No, I don’t believe it.” Strategy means you understand, you take into

17:00

account long-term ramifications. You look at the implications of your moves. To my mind, putting on this

17:07

search charge on India was as stupid as could be from any count. It serves no

17:14

purposes. uh to my mind uh making an ultimatum to Putin when Russia is

17:22

winning on the battlefield and when the war was provoked by the United States

17:27

and when to this moment the US will not admit publicly that NATO should not

17:34

enlarge to Ukraine. Even to this day, they say it a little bit privately under

17:40

their muffled voice, but publicly they won’t tell the truth because this is a

17:46

long-term US deep state project. And this means that to make threats to Putin

17:53

under these conditions is not a strategy. It’s not even a tactic. It’s

17:59

just a blunder. And so my view is Trump is not strategic. He’s not tactical.

18:08

Okay, he’s president. It’s true. He must have some tactics. I’m not president. He

18:13

is. Uh but I don’t find what he’s doing sturbing any uh real strategic interests

18:22

of the United States, of the American people, um or even being on the positive

18:29

side. Now, that also may sound strange. You know, do countries do things that are self-destructive?

18:36

Yes. Uh when they don’t know what they’re doing, and unfortunately, the United States has not had a coherent

18:43

uh foreign policy for even America’s own interests. In my view, for many decades,

18:50

America really was the unipolar power briefly in the early 1990s. Look at what

18:57

he has squandered uh in goodwill in capacity in shaping the international

19:02

environment. It’s a lot of self-inflicted defeats and I think Trump is just adding to them.

19:09

Asimony is Pakistan army chief’s growing closeness to the US and Trump. Just a

19:14

couple of days back he even threatened India with nuclear strikes. How can India ignore this? Do you think it is

19:20

something where should India draw the line and should not ignore such threats coming from Pakistan’s army chief? Look

19:26

um all problems between India and Pakistan or India and China or the US

19:36

and China or anyone need to be addressed mainly on a bilateral basis and

19:44

countries like the US or the British Empire before that

19:50

did not mind turmoil uh divide in cyber is the most

19:56

famous strategy of empire. And so if India and Pakistan are in increased

20:04

tensions, the US in this weird way looks on and says good for us. We get to manipulate

20:12

more. Uh maybe India will crawl back, you know, and accept our demands or

20:17

whatever it is. Again, I don’t want to be naive or

20:23

simplistic. if we had hours and we could discuss everything. But I do and I have long

20:29

believed that India and Pakistan need bilateral sorting out of very difficult issues uh

20:37

that are very dangerous. Obviously they’ve reached to the level of war

20:43

recently but they will never be solved by the United States. uh and I wouldn’t

20:48

let the United States in between the Pakistan US uh India issues. In other

20:57

words, I wouldn’t say if we can just get the US on our side or the US is on

21:03

Pakistan’s side. The real issues between India and Pakistan are bilateral and

21:09

they can never be anything but bilateral actually. uh and uh even with China in

21:15

there uh even with the US don’t let other major powers uh

21:22

create a a worsening spiral because

21:28

outside powers destabilize they don’t stabilize regions uh and India and

21:34

Pakistan are two nuclear powers at each other’s throats very dangerous and it

21:41

needs bilateral al bilateral sorting out. It’s not easy, by the way. No

21:47

question about it. But it cannot be done at the White House. But at the same

21:52

time, obviously, but at the same time, don’t let any lunch at the White House or statements at the White House

22:01

create a a a reaction.

22:06

The US is essentially irrelevant to the India

22:12

Pakistan issue. This is my professor. A while back you were mentioning bricks and you said I would put my bet on bricks. It is the future

22:20

and Trump is really after bricks. He called it a just little group. Do you

22:25

think is it possible that bricks can challenge America’s dominance? And can we talk about ddollarization also? Is it

22:32

possible? Yes and yes. Uh it’s not even a not even a close call. America is not dominant

22:39

over the bricks. It isn’t. Uh this is the reality that we’re already seeing.

22:44

Uh the bricks is a much larger economy in the aggregate, much larger than the

22:49

United States and much more important in trade, much more advanced in many

22:55

technologies by the way. And the dollar

23:00

dominance is going to end within the next 10 years. Actually,

23:07

the main way it’s going to end is through internationalization of the remed.

23:18

But that’s not the fundamental point. The fundamental point is the US is now

23:23

maybe 14% of the world economy measured at purchasing power prices. Uh it’s

23:31

something roughly similar a little bit smaller in terms of international trade.

23:37

uh it is not dominant in most technologies though it’s not bad in a

23:43

lot of areas and you can’t on that basis

23:48

especially with an erratic foreign policy with a lot of hostility that is created and by the way with a huge US

23:56

budget deficit that’s not getting better anytime soon so our own finances are in

24:02

disorder with all of that you can’t say that the US is going to sustain the

24:09

dominance of the international financial system. Technology is not hard to create

24:17

non-dollar payments, non-d dollar settlements, non-dollar financing, and I think it’s going to come faster than

24:22

people think. Is Trump afraid of a trade war with China? Trump has just extended the China

24:28

trade truce for next 90 days. Right now, he’s not waging a trade war with China.

24:33

What is in his mind that he doesn’t want to show his cards right now? The China playbook is not ready or he wants to

24:40

wait and watch and then show his cards. What is in his mind related to China? Rare earth, US consumers,

24:48

uh US economy. No, the US can’t win a trade war with

24:53

China. Not even close. It’s as simple as that.

24:59

down after two days the first time around. China said no and the US said okay we’ll

25:07

delay it. Professor, how do you see India’s economy performing in the next five or seven years if the tariffs stay

25:14

as it is? Because to be honest it is going to impact India’s economy a lot.

25:20

Jobs are connected, money is connected and lot of traders are connected. They are also worried. How do you see India’s

25:25

economy going to do in the next 5 to 6 year if the tariff remains as it is?

25:31

The US has closed the market to China effectively already for many years.

25:37

China’s exports are still growing significantly because China reoriented

25:43

its trade. It’s doing a lot more trade with ASEAN. It’s doing a lot more trade

25:48

with other parts of the world. That is what I would recommend for India as well. uh I hope that the search charges

25:56

will go away. I think there’s some chance that they will but even if they

26:01

do, India should not rely on the US and Europe as the main markets for export

26:09

growth over the next 5 to 10 years because both the US and Europe are slow

26:14

growing economies. There are advanced economies that are mature and um I

26:22

wouldn’t say stagnant. Europe is maybe stagnant because of all the crisis

26:27

underway but they’re not the fast growing part of the world. Fast growing part of the world is the emerging

26:32

economies. uh and I would recommend that India take a look once again at REP. REP

26:41

of course is the 15 uh economies including China, Japan, Korea, ASEAN,

26:48

Australia and New Zealand. It should be 16 in my view. India should be part of

26:54

that. Uh and that would be a very dynamic way to grow for years to come.

27:00

India has lots of domestic investments that are needed and massive infrastructure in many many areas in the

27:08

power sector and transport and fast rail. India doesn’t have fast rail. China has 50,000 kilometers of fast

27:15

rail. Uh India should by the way because it’s so densely populated.

27:23

Rail is the right mode of intercity transport and it should be fast rail.

27:29

Well, that’s a lot of investment and a lot of growth uh ahead as well. So, I

27:34

think India needs a strategy that does not depend on uh export growth to the US

27:40

market. Fortunately, you’re in the fast growing part of the world. India should

27:45

be achieving about 7% per year GDP growth in the coming decade. It can do

27:52

that. But to do that, trade with China, trade with Austria,

27:58

deepen the relations in East Asia, uh export to Africa, by the way, because

28:03

India has a lot that Africa can use. India’s way ahead of course on the

28:09

digital economy in exactly the way that Africa needs it. So focus less on the

28:15

US, focus more on the emerging economies, focus on the neighborhood uh

28:20

and focus on upgrading the internal infrastructure and upgrading uh the

28:28

investments in education and skills in India. A team from the USA is all set to come

28:34

here in India in the last week of August. Do you think a deal should be made? Do you think something is going to

28:40

happen or Trump is just still testing waters or making sure that India should step down and be ready to open its

28:47

agriculture market and dairy markets which India is never going to do because it’s going to wipe out millions of jobs?

28:52

The farmer will have no job, will have no money. So India can never do that. Do you think Trump is still testing waters

28:58

and waiting for India to bow down? Yes. uh and India will not and the

29:04

actions of the last couple of weeks make it impossible for India to do so even if

29:10

there was any inclination to do so beforehand because now it’s absolutely

29:16

clear to India you can’t rely on the United States no matter what’s agreed uh

29:21

so India needs to have a an overall strategic policy which is different

29:29

perhaps from what some thought a month or two ago the US is not the route to

29:36

India’s prosperity and security a multipolar world is that means a

29:41

different strategy professor I want to mention one incident an AI reporter from ANI reporter from our news agency asked

29:48

Donald Trump in the white house are you aware of the US imports of Russian

29:53

uranium and fertilizers and Trump replied I do not know anything about it I have to check is he really unaware of

30:00

US imports of uranium and fertilizers and what EU is doing since the war

30:06

began. EU has imported more than 100 billion dollar of gas energy. Is he really unaware of the facts that are in

30:13

front of everyone to see? This may be one of those few cases where I would take Donald Trump at his word.

30:19

If he says he doesn’t know something, I believe him. Does he even have good advisor as far as

30:25

India is concerned or they really don’t care about India and they just see India as a country that they can bend at their

30:32

will which is never going to happen. It’s a small team. It’s not a

30:37

well-informed team. It’s not a group that has respect for the rest of the

30:42

world. It’s not a group that thinks that you have to prepare for the rest of the world. They don’t have experts on China.

30:50

They don’t have experts on India. They don’t have experts on Russia. Honestly,

30:55

this is a I I can’t use the words I I would normally use, but um they don’t know

31:03

what they’re doing. This is improp. And it plays well in the 24-hour news cycle.

31:10

It plays well for Trump’s followers on social media. It plays okay in the US

31:16

political class which is quite ignorant but no they do not have any deep

31:22

advisors on any of this stuff. This is a pickup team. Professor Trump has chosen his golf

31:29

partner Vitcov as a special envoy to you know deal with the negotiations as far as Putin is concerned. Putin is coming

31:36

to Alaska. It does show that uh Trump is really consistent and concerned about a peace

31:42

deal. He wants a peace deal as soon as possible which is not happening because Putin is not giving him an edge. Putin

31:48

is saying that I will agree when I want to agree. How do you see it panning out? Do you see a ceasefire deal happening at

31:55

the Alaska summit without having Zalinsky on board? And if I may recall a

32:01

couple of months back when EU pushed Trump to send you know defense equipments and to change his stance as

32:08

far as Zalinsky and Ukraine is concerned because he said I’m not going to send defense equipment equipments. I’m not going to do anything. Zalinski has to

32:14

sign that deal. But then European leaders got together and showed some sort of camaraderie with Zalinski and

32:21

they made sure that Trump moved back from his stance. Do you think that this is going to happen if Zalinski is not

32:27

going to agree with the deal? This is exactly the situation. Uh

32:32

Ukraine is a project of the US military-industrial complex. Meaning

32:38

that going back to the 1990s, the idea was get Ukraine on our side. And our

32:47

side means many things. Uh it meant the expansion of Europe institutions, but it

32:54

also meant the expansion of the US military. And that meant NATO enlargement. The project is 30 years. It

33:01

was never going to happen because you look at a map, the Russian

33:08

uh power structure would never allow Ukraine to become a member of NATO. This

33:15

is ridiculous. And um I don’t think India would love if the US

33:22

started establishing military bases. in the Bay of Bengal in Bangladesh or in

33:29

some neighborhood or it suddenly announces that with Bhutan a military agreement that there’s going to be a

33:36

major NATO base in Bhutan, you know, it would not play well no matter who was

33:42

friends with whom. But the United States thought that they could get away with it. And that is basic imperial

33:50

arrogance. And basically that came from Britain which taught America how to be

33:56

an empire. Now it was doomed to fail. It’s failing.

34:02

Trump kind of knows it’s failing. He’s not he doesn’t care about Ukraine. He

34:08

doesn’t care about any of this. Uh so he wants to get out of it. So I think he

34:14

probably really does want to get out of it. But when he says, “I want to get out of it.” Then the whole

34:20

military-industrial complex which runs the US system says, “No, you can’t say

34:26

that. That’s a peacement. That’s showing your weakness. What’s China going to think?” Blah blah blah blah blah. And

34:33

the European leaders, they seem to prefer an ongoing war to a neutral

34:41

Ukraine. I think they’re crazy for thinking this. neutral Ukraine is a good

34:46

buffer between Russia and the European Union. But they don’t want a buffer.

34:52

They also got intoxicated with the idea that Europe extends where we want Europe

34:57

to extend even to the South Caucuses, which if you ask any geographer is not

35:03

even in Europe, it’s in Asia. And so this is Trump. If he were really smart

35:12

and clever and had an experienced team, he would have made a speech to the

35:18

American people. And he would have explained, you know, this was a mistaken

35:23

policy. We need to find a peaceful direction. NATO doesn’t have to be there. Ukraine can be secure as a

35:29

neutral country, indeed more secure than as a battleground of a proxy war.

35:35

If he were a leader, he would do that. If he were Eisenhower or Kennedy, that’s

35:42

what would happen. We haven’t heard a word from him like that. That’s not what true social is about. True social is you

35:49

make a demand, you have 10 days, unconditional this, unconditional that.

35:54

I don’t think unfortunately Trump has the capacity to be a real leader.

36:01

So that’s the problem. Now, the point that I’m making is that when you have a

36:07

30-year project of the deep state, it doesn’t go away easily. And presidents

36:15

are not all powerful because they can be called appeasers. They can be attacked

36:20

as being weak and so forth. That’s why Trump looks like he bounces back and forth. I like Putin. I hate Putin. I’m

36:28

disappointed in Putin. I make demands instead of a coherent strategy. Now,

36:35

some people say, as I mentioned to you earlier, oh, you don’t know how to negotiate, Jeff. Trump’s just

36:41

negotiating. He’s keeping everyone unstable. Well, yes, he is doing that.

36:47

But I think the real instability is the United States, not the rest. I think the

36:52

one that is unstable is the United States. Uh, professor at last I want to ask you if you were the president of the

36:59

United States of America what you would have done as far as tariffs are concerned, Ukraine war is concerned and

37:05

Gaza is concerned. All three fronts I want to know your opinion. What you would have done if you were sitting at

37:11

the helm of America. I would have bolstered the World Trade Organization, reestablished its appellet

37:17

court, said we need multilateralism and an open trading system. I I would have

37:23

announced that NATO is not going to enlarge eastward anymore, that Russia understandably views this as a security

37:30

threat. We are not going to support a war in Ukraine anymore, and there needs

37:36

to be an end of the fighting. And in Gaza, I would have announced immediately the US recognition of a state of

37:43

Palestine on the borders of the 4th of June 1967. And I would have called for the UN

37:49

Security Council to admit Palestine as the 194th member state and to move on to

37:56

the two-state solution which is based on international law. So I would have done

38:02

all of those things probably in the first day and uh I think I think the

38:08

world would be a more stable, prosperous and safer place with those.

38:13

Thank you professor. Thanks a lot for having a conversation with ANI. Thanks a lot. Absolutely. Thank you.

38:22

[Music]

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

Jeffrey Sachs vs. Norman Finkelstein: The Great AI Debate

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqtgr0ouFfY)

Jeffrey Sachs on the role of artificial intelligence in shaping the global economy and geopolitics. Norman Finkelstein takes on ChatGPT in this fiery debate on the role of AI in education. Has the rise of AI tools like ChatGPT led to a breakdown in trust between students and teachers? Finkelstein shares how his once-collaborative classroom has turned tense, and why he sees AI as a threat to genuine learning and intellectual honesty

Transkripzioa:

0:01

Well, AI is going to pervade every

0:05

economy and every sector. Uh so it’s

0:08

going to be key for rich and poor

0:13

economies alike. Uh India in particular

0:18

has great technical capacity and it has

0:22

already put a lot of the economy onto

0:25

the digital space with a lot of benefit

0:28

in my view uh in uh all sorts of

0:32

payments inclusion and efficiencies of

0:34

systems and governance and so forth and

0:37

it should plan to incorporate AI. my own

0:41

view which takes us far a field. I’d

0:43

like to see India and China cooperate on

0:46

this uh much more closely. uh China is

0:50

doing a fantastic job in AI and one of

0:53

the notable points for China in order to

0:56

compete with the uh you know the the big

1:00

US tech is that China’s gone open source

1:04

and this is a fantastic tactical

1:08

approach or even strategic approach one

1:11

could say but it fits very well

1:14

partnership with India as well because

1:17

this could create a massive platform

1:19

platform which basically outruns a lot

1:22

of the US proprietary big tech AI

1:27

systems. So just one tactical point

1:30

would be India and China aligning on an

1:33

open-source

1:35

AI. Both sides would have a huge amount

1:38

to add both in technical capacity. India

1:42

brings a lot of English language data

1:45

and flow to this for hundreds of

1:48

millions of people which would be a huge

1:50

benefit for China also. So this would go

1:53

both ways. Um

1:56

AI raises a a host of very interesting

2:01

subtle uh uh unsolved

2:05

issues and just to mention them uh first

2:08

the tool can accelerate development

2:11

massively. So I’m sure that AI and

2:15

digital more generally can dramatically

2:18

democratize and expand education at all

2:21

levels. And since education is so

2:24

fundamental, all universities can be

2:27

online. Uh all schools can have

2:30

individual avatar tutors for students.

2:34

We can do a huge amount to improve

2:38

education through these tools

2:40

themselves. Uh and I’m doing all my

2:43

teaching online these days, by the way.

2:45

But then I have a global uh a global

2:48

classroom in effect. Um and so there’s

2:51

ways to use the technologies I think

2:54

that will be great for leapfrogging. Uh

2:57

AI will solve huge problems in health

3:00

care

3:01

especially where there are no doctors.

3:03

Uh there will still be diagnostics

3:06

monitoring uh and all sorts of

3:09

procedures that otherwise would have

3:12

been out of reach and completely

3:14

impossible. And one can go through each

3:16

sector. Now at the same time the

3:19

downside is where are the jobs going to

3:22

be and uh this is a an interesting

3:26

question will we all become students and

3:29

people of leisure because the machines

3:31

are going to do uh what needs to be

3:33

done.

3:35

It it’s kind of an extreme scenario but

3:37

there’s a a smidgen of truth to it. Um

3:41

but then who owns the machines and how

3:43

are poor countries going to be part of

3:45

that? I have to tell you having uh

3:48

worked on this and thought about this

3:50

the answers are not clear quantitatively

3:54

uh we don’t really understand anyone who

3:57

says they can give you the scenario of

3:59

this I don’t believe it uh because we

4:02

don’t really know how this will play out

4:06

countries should absolutely plan on

4:11

rapid incorporation of AI into public

4:14

services into governance into key

4:17

sectors of the economy whether it’s

4:19

agriculture, mining, manufacturing and

4:22

so forth and uh being as much part of uh

4:28

and having the physical infrastructure

4:31

to take advantage of this is key. uh so

4:36

India needs to get into robotics also

4:39

even though it seems premature in a way

4:41

there you know in a country of 1.5

4:44

billion people this is the economy that

4:47

is going to evolve quickly um and uh

4:52

those who delay in this I think will

4:56

find themselves falling farther and

4:59

farther behind

5:00

professor Norman Finkelstein once told

5:02

me that Chad GPT has severed his

5:05

relationship with his students. Have you

5:07

faced any such problem with your

5:09

students?

5:10

Oh, that’s interesting. Uh I’m

5:14

because you would say that this is a

5:16

chat GPT written answer and that that

5:19

has

5:20

severe uh implication for their

5:23

relationship.

5:24

I still like a zoom when we’re looking

5:26

each other in the eye. So I still I I’m

5:28

having more conversations with more

5:30

students all over the world than ever

5:32

before. Uh, so that’s not exactly AI,

5:35

but it is digital. And I like that

5:38

because I’m getting a fun chance, as I

5:41

said, to teach in a global classroom.

5:44

I I would never, you know, I know you

5:47

are in part

5:50

an economist by training,

5:53

but I am revolted.

5:56

my whole the whole of my inards

5:59

enters into revolt against expressions

6:03

like human capital.

6:05

So if you could

6:06

human being excuse me if you could share

6:10

with our viewers why you lashed out

6:13

against me that I think would interest a

6:15

lot of viewers.

6:17

you treat I I when I’m able to and

6:21

that’s a crucial caveat when I’m able to

6:25

I teach.

6:27

I’ve never taught on a steady basis. I

6:32

never was tenured.

6:35

I taught semester to semester.

6:39

You get hired. You get fired. You have

6:41

no say in the matter. You find out a

6:43

week or two before they need you or they

6:45

don’t need you.

6:47

But on the other hand, because I was not

6:50

tenured

6:53

except for that terrible period from

6:56

2007 when I was denied tenure and I was

7:00

effectively blacklisted

7:02

until

7:05

about 2019. It was a very bleak period

7:09

in my life. I taught off and on, but

7:15

because I was an adjunct,

7:17

I got the worst courses to teach, which

7:20

were the ones with lots of students,

7:23

which means lots of grading.

7:26

And so I probably had more experience

7:30

teaching than no than tenure professors.

7:33

You know, a tenure professor gets two

7:36

courses one semester,

7:38

one course, let’s say at NYU, two

7:41

courses one semester, one course the

7:43

next semester, and then they get so

7:44

sbatical every three years to do

7:46

research. Their courses are seriously

7:49

well, you’ll know cuz you’re at

7:50

University of Chicago. You ask them how

7:52

many students in your class, six, eight,

7:56

10.

7:58

When I teach, it’s a 30, 35.

8:03

sometimes two, sometimes three courses a

8:06

semester. So I have a lot of teaching

8:09

experience.

8:11

Now

8:13

AI became a real

8:16

a real challenge for me this semester.

8:20

It became a challenge because

8:24

in the past, first of all, it was fairly

8:26

easy to detect plagiarism.

8:29

It wasn’t so frequent. It was a problem

8:31

but you would not call it epidemic.

8:34

And secondly, there were ways to get

8:36

around the problem. So if you have a

8:38

very focused question for a paper, a

8:42

very focused question for a paper, it

8:45

would be hard to find a source that can

8:48

fill in so to speak the blank of a three

8:51

or five page paper. Now, however focused

8:56

is the question,

8:58

however I and you’ll you’ll concur. I I

9:02

gave you examples of very focused

9:04

questions.

9:06

How would you answer what would be the

9:08

best response to the Solomon Island

9:11

submission to the International Court of

9:13

Justice in the 1996 nuclear weapons

9:16

case?

9:18

And as I showed you on the screen, a

9:21

full paper comes up if you enter that

9:23

question in Chad GBT. A full paper

9:27

written, the whole paper is written out.

9:30

So it became a real challenge.

9:33

And in order to rise to that challenge,

9:39

there were two major obstacles.

9:42

First of all, it’s very time inensive.

9:45

You have to sit down with a student and

9:49

go through the paper line by line and

9:51

say, “What does that mean?”

9:55

Read the next sentence. What does that

9:57

sentence mean? Read the next sentence.

10:00

What does that reference mean? Read the

10:02

next sentence. Because the students dig

10:05

in their heels. They’re very confident

10:09

that they can jump through the hoops

10:11

with AI

10:13

that they cannot be traced.

10:17

So

10:19

there’s the labor intensity

10:22

and then there’s another thing.

10:25

It creates an enormous amount of animous

10:29

between you and the student.

10:32

I never in 40 years of teaching

10:36

had such an acrimonious relationship

10:40

with several students, not one, several

10:44

over this issue. I would persist

10:49

and they would persist. They dug in

10:51

their heels.

10:53

If I had not been the age I am, which is

10:57

71,

10:59

if I were at the beginning of my career,

11:02

I couldn’t do it. Because when you’re an

11:05

adjunct, you are dependent on what are

11:08

called the student evaluations.

11:12

And if enough students start giving you

11:14

zeros,

11:16

which is their retaliation

11:19

for the interrogation

11:21

and ultimately humiliation

11:24

that they had to suffer at my hands,

11:28

I would suffer

11:30

marketkedly

11:32

probably in the student evaluations.

11:36

Even now, I didn’t like it. I knew I’m

11:38

going to get a lot of zeros. On a scale

11:41

of 1 to 10, what do you how was the

11:44

professor’s class structured? Zero. How

11:47

was the professor’s uh you know 0000?

11:52

I don’t like that. It makes me feel bad.

11:55

In any case, our differences come down

11:58

to that expression you used, human

12:00

capital.

12:02

For you, this is all a kind of

12:04

mechanical issue. Am I going to invest

12:09

my time and energy

12:12

in tracking down this

12:15

um

12:17

mi this

12:19

uh misrepresentation of your work? Am I

12:23

going to invest it or you know I have

12:26

more important things to do. The student

12:28

cheated. Who the hell cares? Let’s move

12:30

on.

12:32

And

12:33

ju just to add so that you don’t

12:35

misrepresent me. I think it’s not just

12:38

because I think I have a lot of other

12:41

thing to do. I do think that

12:45

real education moving away from the

12:47

framework of building human capital real

12:50

education in a more chkian way or

12:52

William Humbul’s way comes from this

12:56

inner incentive inspiration to look at

12:59

things and read on as opposed to someone

13:02

policing you and forcing you to do

13:04

something. Look, look,

13:07

that’s the ideal.

13:09

And you call me a bourza for having

13:10

that.

13:11

That’s an ideal. Of course, it’s the

13:14

ideal. I have a wonderful student. I

13:16

have many wonderful students. They

13:18

compete with anyone at University of

13:21

Chicago and I think they will prevail.

13:24

So, I had one student Lucas Darest, I’ll

13:27

give his name, brilliant student.

13:31

And I was talking to him about the

13:33

dilemas of AI

13:35

and his response struck struck me. He

13:39

said to me, why would you want to use

13:42

AI? It takes all the fun out of writing

13:45

a paper. I like to display my knowledge.

13:49

You know, that’s, you know, the ego. I

13:53

want to show how much I know.

13:56

And I would I really admire that

13:57

response. It was like an artist. That’s

14:00

an art. Would an artist use AI? Of

14:02

course not. An artist wants to create.

14:06

They have that inner drive to create.

14:09

They’re not going to

14:13

appropriate a song from AI and they love

14:17

the idea that they are putting on

14:20

display for admiration

14:23

their creative

14:25

capacities.

14:27

So that’s the ideal.

14:30

But for most people,

14:33

a chasm separates

14:36

the ideal

14:39

from

14:41

this is just grunt work that I need to

14:45

do to get my degree and get my diploma.

14:48

Get my diploma and get my degree.

14:52

uh and I I feel there’s something about

14:58

maintaining a standard.

15:02

I tell the students

15:04

I say don’t do AI with me. It’s not

15:07

going to work. I have a reputation for

15:11

tracking down work by people who didn’t

15:14

do the work they alleged to have done.

15:17

But I say I still have vivid

15:20

recollections from college. I did I made

15:24

errors.

15:26

I did things I shouldn’t have done to

15:29

get grades I didn’t deserve. So I say

15:33

this, I’m not going to pretend to holier

15:35

than thou. You just rewrite the paper

15:39

and no penalty. Just rewrite the paper.

15:44

So, I do everything I can to be fair,

15:48

but I tell the students, I don’t teach

15:51

for money.

15:53

I teach it because I believe in

15:54

teaching.

15:56

And I’m not going to pretend as if

16:02

the work you submitted is yours.

16:06

It’s not.

16:08

Uh and I think

16:11

I think Professor Chsky who took the

16:13

teaching profession

16:16

so seriously

16:18

that it would terrify you.

16:22

Chsky in linguistics

16:25

is not just an intellectual achievement

16:30

or conquest.

16:33

knowing knowing nothing about the field,

16:36

nothing, zero. I would never dare ask

16:38

him.

16:40

I know the response would not have been

16:42

positive, so I stayed away from it.

16:46

It was not just an intellectual

16:50

attainment, achievement, conquest. He

16:54

created a field. Do you know what that

16:57

means?

17:00

Hundreds of graduate students around the

17:03

world form departments

17:09

because they were his students.

17:13

Do you know how many dissertations that

17:15

means? He had to have read

17:19

in every country in the world.

17:22

There’s one, two, or three. Even at

17:24

Brooklyn College at City University, two

17:27

of my friends know, John Nissenbound,

17:31

Sam Ax, I can pronounce his last name.

17:34

Uh Sam, he’s Palestinian, John is

17:36

Jewish, and they team together.

17:39

They’re both Chsky students. I mean,

17:41

literally, they were his students. He

17:43

read their dissertations everywhere you

17:46

go. Chsky student. Chsky student. Chsky

17:48

student. But not like in the a student

17:51

of like he’s read a few books and is

17:54

inspire. No, literally his student a on

17:58

top of his 10,000 other achievements.

18:02

Professor Chsky created a field in a

18:06

double sense. the intellectual

18:09

breakthrough

18:11

but also the physical creating of

18:15

departments

18:17

by his

18:20

students.

18:22

So I don’t think he would have accepted

18:23

an AI paper. He would not.

18:28

Yeah. I I don’t think our differences

18:30

were about whether we should accept an

18:33

AI paper. It was about whether those

18:37

students of Professor Chsky became those

18:40

students because a they were at the MIT

18:44

and B they were probably more inspired

18:46

by professor.

18:47

Totally totally correct. You didn’t have

18:49

to face that problem.

18:50

Mhm.

18:51

But now when you teach there are large

18:55

numbers of students who just want that

18:56

degree.

18:58

I don’t fault them and actually in my

19:01

opinion

19:04

that kind of utilitarian attitude

19:08

can be overcome

19:11

if you are stimulating enough

19:14

in your teaching.

19:17

If you care enough about reaching young

19:22

minds,

19:23

then however utilitarian

19:27

their approach might be

19:30

upon entering the classroom,

19:33

you could get their minds to work. Mhm.

19:37

their minds. I don’t know how in the era

19:40

of iPhones and social media

19:44

and institutionalized

19:47

gossip

19:49

passing as intellectual

19:52

labor.

19:54

You told me about a particular

19:58

commentator

20:00

who

20:02

reads

20:03

2500

20:07

uh Twitter accounts

20:09

a day.

20:11

Twitter is just gossip. It’s not an

20:14

argument.

20:15

It’s not the composition of a thought

20:19

worked out.

20:21

It’s a tweet. A tweet is to thought as a

20:28

belch is to a sonata.

20:34

So

20:35

despite all of that noise,

20:40

the n the minds are still nimble. There

20:42

were many classes I came home as damn

20:46

those students are really good. And I’ll

20:48

send them a group email what’s called

20:50

Blackboard saying damn good class. Now

20:54

there were bad classes.

20:56

Sometimes I would blame myself. There

20:59

were bad classes. But even with a

21:02

utilitarian attitude,

21:05

you can reach them. But sometimes even

21:09

if you reach them, the laziness sets in.

21:13

Ah, I’ll just go on AI

21:16

and I’ll fight it. I think the last

21:19

point here uh which might be of the

21:22

viewers’s interest on the utilitarian

21:24

point there are there’s this categorical

21:28

point that you described earlier which

21:30

says I wouldn’t use it because it’s

21:33

about displaying my knowledge or it’s

21:35

what Lucinson said.

21:36

Yeah. Being more faithful about uh to

21:39

myself more than anyone else.

21:40

I don’t think it was faithful.

21:42

He he genuinely liked the joy of

21:46

learning

21:48

and discovering what he’s capable of.

21:51

Yeah. So the so so there is that very

21:53

categorical sense of it

21:55

and then there’s the utilitarian aspect

21:57

which

21:57

utilitarian I don’t blame. First of all

22:01

school is expensive.

22:02

Mhm.

22:03

Second of all I mean in my day in my day

22:07

school was free. City University was

22:10

free. State University was free. Free.

22:14

Free e.

22:17

Secondly, no one, no one, I’m telling

22:20

you, no one except premeds. No one

22:24

except premeds ever thought about work.

22:27

Ped you had to do the biochem,

22:30

uh, organic chem, inorganic chem. There

22:32

was in order to get medical school. So,

22:34

it began freshman year. Okay.

22:38

anything else. We never thought about a

22:40

job. Never. Never. You know why?

22:45

There were jobs.

22:46

There were jobs. We always knew when we

22:48

graduated when we’re ready to get a job,

22:50

we would get a job. There was no thought

22:52

to it. So, no tuition,

22:57

no fear of a job.

23:01

Parents never asked you what you were

23:03

majoring in. My parents the last day,

23:06

the last if you ask what a normal major,

23:07

I have no idea. They didn’t care. Why

23:10

would they care? This was like summer

23:12

camp, but it was free. Four years, no

23:16

cost.

23:17

And um

23:19

he’ll find a job. No worry. No, no

23:22

worries. He’ll find a job. Young people

23:24

now

23:26

astronomic tuition,

23:30

no jobs unless they can find an exact

23:33

fit between their major

23:38

and the job they want later. You know,

23:40

that’s why the major is now completely

23:42

insane.

23:43

Mhm.

23:43

Completely insane. I’ve never seen

23:45

major. What are you majoring in? Graphic

23:47

design.

23:49

I mean, graphic design is actually one

23:51

of the more

23:54

uh substantive majors. Absolutely crazy

23:57

majors because college has turned into a

24:00

vocational school.

24:01

Mhm.

24:01

It’s not college anymore. College meant

24:03

the what we called back then a liberal

24:05

arts education.

24:08

Now it is about the job market.

24:09

Now it’s just a job market. It’s

24:10

vocational school. So I don’t blame them

24:13

when they’re utilitarian. I get where

24:15

that’s coming from. But e even with that

24:18

I do believe you can reach students. You

24:21

can still reach them. Uh if you care

24:24

enough

24:25

about your subject matter you can reach

24:28

them. Uh at least

24:33

I know that

24:34

but a good 90% and you can have a lively

24:37

intellectually curious class. There was

24:41

this moment where you called me

24:45

surrendering kind of I’m paraphrasing

24:48

but surrendering mental faculties to the

24:50

will of the machine and I called you a

24:53

diet and the example I gave you that I

24:57

would use AI to get my

25:02

useless language grant application

25:05

written but I would never use AI to

25:07

write my thesis or my

25:10

for you both are no um just your

25:13

thoughts.

25:14

I

25:15

your mind is in my opinion your mind is

25:19

incrementally taken over and you’ve got

25:22

to exercise maximum discipline to

25:25

prevent your mind from being

25:26

appropriate. I know I’m going to tell

25:28

you something which is going to is going

25:30

to you’re going to think this guy is

25:32

completely nuts. If I’m writing an

25:35

email,

25:37

I write

25:39

o uh octbert oct e r and I meant

25:44

October. Okay. And the spell check

25:48

immediately

25:49

 kicksicksicks in to make it

25:50

October, right? I won’t use it.

25:53

We had that experience today when I said

25:55

that this is AI. Don’t worry about

25:57

spelling. It understands. And you said I

25:59

know but I care for it.

26:01

Yes. I will never let the machine take

26:03

over me spelling. I will not

26:06

because I know you know Trosky once said

26:10

human being Leon Trosky the Russian

26:12

revolutionist he says human beings are

26:14

intrinsically lazy

26:16

and he said that’s a good thing that’s

26:18

what forces them to innovate

26:21

technologically grow and so forth

26:23

because they don’t want to market

26:24

they want to get rid of them

26:26

yeah they they don’t want to do the

26:27

grunt work they so it’s a good thing uh

26:30

I I don’t really agree with that I think

26:32

that it’s It becomes very it’s very

26:35

seductive to have the machine replace

26:38

this and have the machine replace that

26:40

and have the machine replace this and

26:42

that and before you know it the machine

26:45

is replacing your mind.

26:46

Mhm.

26:47

And I’m not going to let that happen to

26:49

my grave. I will keep correcting my

26:53

spelling on my own. I’m glad it’s

26:55

alerting me that I that I made an error,

26:58

but I will correct it myself. Hi, my

27:03

name is Aishman. I along with Jotis man

27:06

have started this platform. The last two

27:09

years we have tried to build content for

27:12

the left and progressive forces. We have

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27:17

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[Music]

oooooo