From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (116) eta Jeremy Corbyn

Gaza BEFORE Israel showed up

Israel is a criminal state

tim anderson@timand2037

In 1948 Albert Einstein foresaw the Israeli terrorism in Palestine that would eventually bring a catastrophe on the Jewish colonists.

uzt. 26

This you?

Aipamena

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Jeremy Corbyn@jeremycorbyn

EXCLUSIVE Jeremy Corbyn Interview: Why We Launched Your Party

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49jppx61YhY)

Transkripzioa:

0:00

Could this turn British politics upside down? I’m talking of course about the new party which is being launched by the

0:05

former leader of the Labour party Jamie Corbyn and the former Labor MP Sultana. I’m here in Finsby Park. This is Jamie

0:11

Corbyn’s constituency to talk to the man about what the party’s all about, what

0:17

it’s going to do, I guess some of the the attack lines against it. We’ll just let Farage in. We’re going to hear a lot

0:23

of that from Labour saying vote for us otherwise that’s what’s going to happen. I want to talk about is genocide. um

0:29

about the complicity of the British government, what it means for politics. I want to talk about quite a few things

0:36

about just the state of the country really, which is a bit of a burning skip at the moment, let’s be honest. Lots to

0:41

talk to about. Let’s let’s go talk to Jeremy. Jeremy, this is really speaky because I interviewed literally exactly

0:47

10 years ago here. Um it was uh the beginning of August 2015 with this table,

0:53

I think it was. I see this table that was in the background. It’s changed a bit. The trees have got bigger. Oh yeah. It’s nice. It’s it’s a

0:58

beautiful little park. I’m glad we’re here again. It’s a lovely day. Um I want to put your pundit hat on or your historian hat because in that last 10

1:06

years has been just globally a little bit of a roller coaster. So when I interviewed you, it was before Brexit.

1:11

It was before all the political turmoil here, B Johnson and Lis and all that. Trump, it was before the pandemic. It

1:16

was before the US defeat Afghanistan. It was before the general rise of the far right. It was before the invasion of

1:21

Ukraine. And it was before Israel’s genocide. I mean, you kind of look at that and think the world has kind of

1:27

gone to You do think it has. I think it’s much worse now than it was

1:33

10 years ago because you’ve got greater poverty and inequality in this country, greater inequality globally, advancing

1:40

environmental problems around the world. And now, which is the possibly the most

1:46

serious factor is increasing realment all around the world. So, you’ve got

1:51

global arm spending last year 2.4 4 trillion this year maybe 2.7 going up

1:57

and up. Every every country in the world is spending more on weapons and we I don’t know if

2:03

you remember it last year we produced a book called Demonstr of the Guns which is about the profits of the arms trade.

2:08

So we’ve got to factor that in as well. And uh what role are the western

2:16

countries playing to try and bring about world peace? What role is Britain playing? Well, it won’t take long to

2:21

answer that. Well, we’ll talk about that. Um, the new party, which is yet to be named. We’ll talk about that as well.

2:27

Have you got a suggestion? I just keep it simple. The People’s Party.

2:32

What was your name? I don’t know. Just Okay. Just put it out there. Put it out. Just, you know, I think in your own I

2:38

don’t mind what it’s called. If it’s called Wibble, as long as it’s got some good policies to address all the crisis

2:43

you’re talking about, why not before? I mean, you they the they the leadership Yeah. took the whip off you in 2020 and

2:50

then clearly just went on and on and on about how they weren’t going to let you in. Why not? Why not before the last

2:56

election? Well, I ceased to be leader of Labour Party in April 2020. I was suspended in

3:03

October 20 from the party membership, reinstated three weeks later unanimously

3:09

by the national executive and then the parliamentary party withdrew the whip from me uh on a basis that was going to

3:16

be uh taken away for 6 months but it’s been a long time a little bit longer.

3:21

It took it took longer. Um I obviously took a lot of soundings locally on what

3:29

I should do. the Labour Party members wanted me to remain as their MP and to

3:35

carry on fighting it. Um, and so I took the view that I would fight it right up

3:42

to the end and if the Labor Party did what it eventually did, I would then run an independent and I did that. I also

3:50

felt that winning here was very very important and I was under a lot of

3:56

pressure from good comrades and good friends saying look Jeremy form a new party now this would be 21 22 um and

4:05

then um you’ll be ready for the election in what the guest would be 24 25

4:11

obviously um I didn’t do that for a number of reasons one was had I done

4:17

that I would have had to spend two years doing a lot of traveling around to get

4:22

the new party going, to get it underway, to get it organized and so on, which would not have played well in the local

4:29

community. And so I did what I’ve always done, represented the constituency and carried on doing that. And then when the

4:37

election came in 24, we said, “Okay, you’ve done your worst. We’ll let the people decide who the LP should be.”

4:43

This is after Starmer had put a resolution through the LDC saying I wasn’t fit to be a public representative of the Labour Party, which was I think

4:51

um probably unprecedented in Labour Party history that a former leader is

4:57

deemed to be unfit to represent the party, a party I’ve been in since I was 16. Um and so we ran uh as an

5:06

independent. We got amazing levels of support locally and outside. And what I

5:12

noticed was the people who came to help. Yes, many were friends and so on that I

5:17

known for many years and a lot of local people came and helped. And I sort of

5:23

didn’t know them well but knew them vaguely. I said it’s really nice to come and help. I never seen you helping

5:29

elections before. So no, no, I can never help the Labor party but I help you. Yeah. Yeah. So, we brought in a new demographic and

5:36

then I figured that after we’d proved we could do it and we won with a good vote

5:41

and other the other independents were elected too. I didn’t know them in advance and it was kind of weird. The

5:48

first ever in parliament I invited them to come to my office. So, they all came and they sat around this big round table

5:54

of the office and and they I’m not sure they knew each other so well either.

6:00

They said this is like been called for the head teachers. So we sat down, poured out cups of tea

6:07

all around and had a chat. And um we all come from different backgrounds, different political past and so on. And

6:13

we we made a pact. We said, “Okay, we’re going to work together. Where we agree,

6:18

we’ll work together. Where we don’t agree, we’ll say no more about it. We just park that and move on.” And so it’s

6:24

worked. And uh it’s been actually a really pleasant experience. And uh then

6:31

uh the issue then was forming a new party. We discussed it for quite a while, ideas, structures and so on. And

6:38

eventually we announced uh what is a week ago today and as of this moment

6:44

which is um 1 hour and uh 18 minutes short of when we announced it’s now just

6:50

past 600,000 people registered. Did you surpass what you expected? Oh, way above. Yeah, way above. I was

6:58

thinking 200,000 to begin with possibly but this is now larger than the largest Labour

7:06

party membership ever which was 600,000 when I stepped down. We don’t know how low the labor members have fallen to

7:12

either. Do they? Cuz they were figures. So that’s a secret. That’s a secret. Even the Communist Party, the Soviet

7:18

Union used to publish membership figures. They slightly more democratic than this party probably.

7:24

Um they had a very centralized way of doing things when you stood I mean because it just cuz I was you know out and about with

7:31

you during that campaign and which campaign the 15 leadership war. No the no when the general election in

7:37

Islington North last year. Last 24. Yeah. And it’s interesting because actually people often don’t realize that it’s

7:43

extremely hard to win as an independent. It’s it’s happened very rarely in a competitive general election since World

7:48

War II. In fact, there’s only three other times out where S Davis

7:53

in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah. And there was Kster guy in Kyster which where Albert Thousand counts a

7:59

party stood down to him. Where I think where the party stands down because again there’s Patton doesn’t count

8:04

either because the Labour party stood down to him. Yeah. Yeah. They certainly didn’t stand down. No, they certainly do not. They throw

8:10

everything at you and and also in people also forget because people think well you know lot you know you’ve got people

8:15

you do have very loyal voters being there all the lives but it’s a huge turnover people all the time because of the party rent out but what did you what

8:21

can you extrapolate from that because that that a lot of pundit some pundits will say oh well he’s you know you’ll

8:26

get 5% you you ended up get getting a huge majority so what was the lesson from that the lesson for that is is two things one

8:33

is that um we and I say just me we have been very involved with everything to do

8:40

with the community for the past 40 years in every aspect community centers housing estates and so everything all

8:47

the time and I’ve never neglected the constituency never ever I spend my time

8:53

doing stuff in the and I love it I love the area I know so many people there which makes it makes but it’s not that

8:59

alone it was people felt that Labour were not offering them anything in the general election they knew what I was

9:06

offering they knew what my beliefs are, principles are, and

9:12

they responded to it, which I think was, if you look at it objectively, quite remarkable when they’d been told for

9:19

years by the mainstream media that I was the devil in color. I was Satan I was

9:24

Satan on two legs. I got horns coming out here. I got a big mustache out here. And I probably carry a wand or

9:29

something, you know. U and so sometimes we people come to the door who had very

9:35

recently moved into the area who didn’t know me but oh

9:40

Mr. to call me. We know all about you, right? I’d say so what do you know about me?

9:47

They said, “So, we’ve heard a lot of bad things about me.” I said, “Well, let’s discuss it.” And then you go into a discussion with

9:53

people and it was it was lovely. And so, we spent a lot of time a lot of and also

9:59

we made the campaign fun. When you remember it, you came um it was open open air rallies, always had music,

10:05

poetry, entertainment. And what was great was uh I was slightly

10:10

nervous about holding canvasing rallies on in the middle of a housing estate because you think oh Sunday afternoon

10:17

and is it a good idea and my team were very enthusiastic and very loud. I said

10:23

and I’m kind of conscious of people’s lives and I said are you really sure about this? No, no, it’ll be fine. I

10:29

said all right we’ll give it a go. So we went down to six acres estate, got the loudspeaker up and a hu big crowd

10:36

assembled and then we had several speeches and bit of music and then I saw

10:42

the windows opening all around that were oh god here it goes here there’s going to be complaints in a minute something’s

10:49

no people came down and joined in the rally was twice the size at the end it had been at the beginning people wanted

10:55

that style of politics and that’s what we’re doing it’s great it’s called your party I mean sorry it’s called your

11:01

party that’s the holding name basically just to your party.uk UK. Exactly. Um, and there’s been I mean a

11:09

lot of the media response was just to sneer at that rather than engage with what what it seek to do. Just explain

11:16

why why your party why why use that as a is the beginning. Um, me and a few friends have been

11:21

discussing various names. Um we tried various things about party of peace,

11:28

party of justice, people’s party which you suggested and a lot a lot of other

11:34

names and I said look let’s just have a holding name and let’s call it your party.uk UK and then when we have our

11:43

founding conference which will be later this year guessing November time and um

11:49

we’ll decide on a name. It may even be that name but you know what the idea you join a party without a name in order to

11:57

choose the name is not a bad thing. It’s it’s democracy in action and people are going to come up with some mad zany

12:04

names. We could end up with sort of boc party or something but sign me up for that.

12:10

You you you’d like that idea. I think why not? I mean, you know, let’s just, you know, I mean, it’s a little bit 2018 probably. Um, Labour originally

12:18

was the Labor Representation Committee for several years before it became the Labor. Well, the other idea I had was that we’d call it the the interim committee for

12:25

the development of a a meaningful understanding of social change and the need for justice and inequality as

12:31

peaceful and sustainable. So, that’ll fill up the whole ballot paper, wouldn’t it? When you’re ready, you think that

12:36

catch up? I think so. you wouldn’t be able to miss it. Um, back to you then. So, I mean just it’s just how’s

12:41

democracy going to work in this party because democracy, you’ve always talked about that democratizing the Labour Party. Now you’ve got a new party all

12:46

together. You can just start from scratch. What does it mean? Good point. This is an interesting issue, an interesting conundrum. We’ve

12:53

formed this party with the name Scott. I’m very conscious that there are lots

12:59

of independent groups around the country, independent groups of counselors, independent party activists

13:04

in many all the way from Brighton to Barrow and all over. They’re they’re everywhere. There’s also people’s

13:10

assembly and many other groups around. Many of those have signed up for our party, but not all. Um, we’re not going

13:18

to get involved in a turf war about who’s numero uno in Birmingham, who’s numero in uno in Liverpool and so no,

13:26

we’re going to work out a way of doing it. So, it will end up with being some kind of federal nature and trade union

13:32

involvement will be important an important part of it. I’m not expecting

13:38

national unions to sign up for it straight away, but I’ve had conversations with a lot of union leaders at the Darham

13:45

Miners Gala and since and uh we will therefore have that inclusive nature to

13:51

it. The demographic which uh is obviously broad with 600,000 people in

13:56

support. It’s got to be very very broad indeed. That has to be reflected in the structure. What I don’t want is endless

14:03

battles over who’s controlling which committee. Da da da da. The way you keep a party together is by going forward on

14:09

campaigning. Fundamental issues, peace, fundamental issue, social justice in this country, fundamental issue,

14:16

environmental sustainability, fundamental issue, protecting human rights and opposing the far right

14:22

because the other parties, all of them are actually appeasing what reform say.

14:29

they join in this rhetoric, Ireland est strangers, etc., etc., happening all over Europe. We’re not doing that. We’re

14:34

the very opposite. I’m supporting a demonstration which is going on this weekend to defending people living in an

14:41

asylum hotel. And you’ll probably remember the first thing I did when I was elected leader of the Labor Party

14:46

against a lot of advice I received was to go and speak at a refugees welcome rally because I wanted to put it out

14:52

there. We’re not joining in this tide of hate against people who’ve been victims

14:57

of hate themselves. You mentioned Labour there echoing Eno Powell and Nigel Farage. Is this Labor

15:03

government worse than you would have expected? Yes, much worse than I expected. I

15:08

didn’t have high expectations of it. The manifesto was incippid, weak,

15:15

unmemorable. I ask anybody what was in the manifesto, they go.

15:20

They can very seldom name anything, but possibly they’ll remember breakfast clubs.

15:25

Oh yeah, possibly. That’s about it. Not saying breakfast clubs aren’t valuable. They are, but you know, they’re not the only

15:31

thing. Um so what they’ve done is what um minor reforms in terms of uh rights

15:40

of renters, slightly greater protection but no rent control, some improvement in

15:46

workers rights but no uh sectoral bargaining and so on all the way through and then rolling back against the

15:52

environmental agenda actively pursuing an increase in arms expenditure rather than promoting peace.

15:59

I’m not pretending the world’s simple or easy out there, but if you have an agenda to go to war, as Star War and

16:04

Healey appear to do, then what do you do? You spend more and more money on weapons. And this candle gets off in parliament saying she wants to take 5

16:11

billion out of the DWP budget, which is earmarked for personal independence

16:16

payments. And Star wants to put 13 billion more into the arms budget. What

16:21

are we about as a country? Are we gonna starve and impoverish people with disabilities in order to buy more planes

16:28

from the USA? Because that’s what it looks like. I mean, speaking the way you’re speaking about this, I mean, because you were a

16:33

Labour MP to Tony Blair, is this is this Do you think it’s worse? Well, Tony Blair and I were never close.

16:40

Yeah, I’d say like Buddies close buddy. You were on camping trips together. No, we didn’t go any camping trips

16:46

together. I don’t think Tony Blair is kind of into Canada somehow. uh manters

16:51

with billesone this kind of thing. I think he was more into the Burlesone side of holidays. Um the Blair

16:58

government of 97 was a kind of interesting conundrum. I remember in I think it was September

17:06

97 there was the vote on the single parent benefit. You remember it? And um

17:13

a number of us voted um against it. And I remember going into the no lobby to

17:21

vote and as I got in there, Nick Brown is there, the chief whip. I didn’t

17:26

really I said, Nick, this is remarkable. A chief whip rebelling against the

17:32

government. said, “Jeremy, please, please. I’m not quite going that far, but I’m here to

17:39

assure you that tomorrow there will still be a Labor party and tomorrow you will still be part of that Labor Party

17:45

cuz I respect what you’re doing.” Really? Chief Whip. Interested.

17:51

Now, did he do that on his own or did he do that with Blair’s blessing? I don’t know. But

17:56

they would have known his style. They would have known the style. And so, um, I thought that was interesting. Now,

18:02

I’m not saying Blair loved us. He absolutely didn’t. But until he got involved with um Iraq and so on. Um the

18:12

social justice program was an improvement. We got um we got children’s centers. We got Shorstart.

18:19

We got Northern Ireland, which uh was fascinating. I mean, again, I had

18:24

arguments with with them about Northern Ireland. Um, they were annoyed with me for meeting Shinfane and Jerry Adams in

18:31

the run-up to the 97 election. And I said, “It’s absolutely essential to do it. I’ve been meeting them for years.

18:36

I’ll carry on meeting them.” They said, “We’d rather you didn’t.” I said, “Well, one day you’ll be pleased I did.” Yeah. Oh.

18:42

Um, but they were prepared to engage. Now, Blair got totally off the wall when

18:48

he got involved with Bush in Iraq. And I just remember the many meetings we had

18:54

over the runup to Iraq war. We had one meeting. There was about 10 Labor MPs

19:01

around the table in the prime minister’s room in the Commons. And um Blair said,

19:06

“Okay, I got to go.” He looked quite irritable and tired and quite bored with what we’d all been saying because he

19:12

would all been saying much same thing. He said, “I’ll take one more question.” So I said, “Okay.” You know, fumbling.

19:18

Jeremy, if you must. I said, “Yeah, I must, Tony.” So I said, he said, “What’s

19:24

your question?” I said, “Tony, why are we doing this?”

19:30

Because it’s the right thing to do. Wow. Then walked out. Wow. Yeah. He really got that Masonic

19:37

kind of thing. Yeah, that’s right. I’m not engaging anymore in this stuff. and uh after that

19:42

um in the denial and that’s why I’m pushing the Gaza inquiry bill which I

19:47

put into parliament which is a Chilcot style inquiry. Remember Chilcot didn’t come first. No, there’s also why

19:54

Butler inquiry in the foreign first select committee inquiry and then so what I’ve done is put a Gaza inquiry bill to the house. We

20:01

that September Yeah. It’s blocked by the government. So we’re doing an independent choir fourth and 5th September Church House

20:06

Westminster and that’s to interrogate what British complicity actually is. That’s right. Well on that Sultana who you’ve launched

20:13

this party with. She just says very clearly very plainly that Karma and David Liy belong in the

20:19

H. And the genocide convention and what wrong in the head? No belong in the H. Although um let’s I

20:26

mean I don’t want to speculate on that. No um no but I mean the genocide convention in 1948 prohibits five

20:31

crimes. One of them is complicity and genocide and it also imposes legal obligations of governments to prevent

20:37

I have raised a specific point in parliament with Lammy and others who deny it. I’ve said to them look the ICJ

20:45

has given its opinion that acts of a genocidal nature taking place in Gaza. I was at the ICJ to listen to a hall these

20:51

are a court of justice absolutely fascinating international court of justice and um I’ve raised this

20:57

with them with Haley and with said look the issue is if you know genocidal acts

21:03

are taking place and you do know and you are knowingly supplying the wherewithal to Israel to continue further acts

21:10

you yourself are complicit and open to prosecution they did I

21:16

said it’s not our legal advice Well, that’s an issue we will explore. Well, the Conservative MP Kit Malt

21:22

House, he’s done actually blinder of a job, I have to say. Fascinating. But he’s he’s I mean, he raised that. He

21:29

said well has no not natural mate. No, I wouldn’t imagine he would be to in a civilized way.

21:34

But he said about he said to David Lambly that he could end up one day. So I mean do you think that that’s possible that you could end up with prosecues?

21:41

Extremely impossible. And I remember going up to K after one of his contributions to the chamber and I said,

21:46

“Well done. Well said.” And um it comrade it must be it must be a bit lonely doing this when he’s surrounded

21:53

by some pretty hawkish people. He said well coming from you that’s quite something

21:59

but I mean so Gan has said that he will he’s tried to use Palestinian national statethood as a bargaining chip. He said

22:06

that if Israel doesn’t commit to a ceasefire then he’ll support the right of Palestine national. So it doesn’t

22:11

make any sense either because he said that if Israel doesn’t commit to a two-state solution but then he Britain

22:17

would no longer support a Palestinian state. It doesn’t make any sense. But what do you think about what he’s saying instead of ending arm sales? And

22:23

it’s absurd and it’s a a travesty of any understanding of international law. I

22:29

don’t know whether Kia missed the lectures on international law or something. Maybe he skipped a few but it’s completely crazy. You either

22:36

recognize Palestine or you don’t. 146 countries have recognized Palestine.

22:41

France says it’s going to in September. Why not now? Don’t know.

22:47

And he says, “We will recognize unless Israel agrees to a ceasefire.” In other

22:52

words, he’s saying, “You can continue the occupation, but you must stop the bombing, so we won’t recognize

22:58

Palestine.” So, it’s leaving the Palestinian people once again in terrible limbo. So, either you recognize

23:05

or you don’t. Now the House Commons voted in more than 15 years.

23:10

Yeah. When the ban was labeled here. Yeah. Yeah. On a private members motion voted non-binding motion to recognize the

23:17

state of Palace. So there is a record there for it. And uh I think that Stal’s

23:23

confused position is going to be something else. Now, apparently he told Labour MPs yesterday morning that there

23:29

was going to be an unconditional recognition of Palestine and then four hours later he’s met Donald Trump and

23:36

it’s totally different with with Israel’s genocide. I mean,

23:42

you know, I mean, I think to myself, I mean, I don’t and I want to phrase this properly because I don’t want to talk about the genocide extermination of the

23:47

Palestinian view because it’s some teachable lesson to the world. It’s one of them abominations of our type. But, you know, it’s it’s changed me forever.

23:54

It’s changed other people forever. Do you think it has fundamentally changed politics in a way that isn’t

24:02

actually properly understood yet? I mean, we look about the financial crash, the Iraq war, these all had long-term

24:08

brought out the human and a lot of people that didn’t come out before. The previous genocides, you think Cambodia,

24:15

you think Rwanda, you think Dur, you think Second World War, all those those

24:20

genocides were not on live television in the way that this one is. Yes, it there were in the case of um particularly

24:27

Rwanda, they were there was quite a lot of television coverage, but not to the extent we get now. We now get this live

24:34

coverage. I don’t know about you, I watch um lots of different international

24:40

channels, usually late at night, sort of Alazer, France 24 and so on. Even I find

24:46

it hard to look at it. When you see a mother with a baby, she’s so emaciated

24:53

and hungry and dehydrated, she can’t create enough milk in herself to feed her baby. And she’s got this whailing,

25:00

crying baby who’s clearly near to death. So you’re watching live stream and what

25:06

it’s very Gaza is quite small probably 10 kilometers away in size of East London. Yeah.

25:11

There’s water, there’s milk, there’s food, there’s everything that that baby needs and it’s been deliberately done by

25:18

the state of Israel and by the idea in plain sight. I mean the difference you mentioned Rwanda, we weren’t arming

25:24

the genocidal army at the time. Do you think I mean a me a both a political and

25:29

media elite which is complicit in genocide has just lost its legitimacy? Yeah.

25:34

Yeah. When you’re complicit in genocide as we now are as a country, we have

25:41

supplied weapons knowing full what’s going to happen. And when I’ve asked about these surveillance flights over Gaza,

25:47

there’s an awful lot of them. What are they for? Because if they’re supposed to be looking for the hostages, they

25:52

haven’t been very good at it. But besides, if hostages are being kept in tunnels somewhere, it’s not very likely

25:58

you’ll see them from a plane. And so you ask yourself the question, what’s this for? They refuse to say, and when I’ve

26:05

said, is any of this information being passed on to the IDF? Are they actually surveillance rights to pray? They say,

26:11

we’re not saying what they’re for. And so I said, “Okay, if that’s a situation, will you therefore undertake that every

26:19

piece of footage you’ve got of film over Gaza will be handed over to the ICC and the ICJ?” They said, “No, no, it’s our

26:26

information. Is it shared with Israel?” And then Lamei said that it is not being

26:32

shared with the IDF for their purposes. So what is it for?

26:38

Yeah, it makes no sense, doesn’t it? I mean, because the IDF would have to allow them permission to do that. I mean,

26:43

you thought they’d shoot them down otherwise. Well, you Well, I mean, indeed. I mean, but the I mean, they must, given the

26:48

amount of flies, they must have huge amounts of evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity. So, they So,

26:54

that itself is complicity, isn’t it? They’re not an I would recommend that when the next inquiry takes place at either the ICC or

27:01

ICJ or both, they subpoena Britain to come along with the evidence. Yeah. Britain has signed up fully to ICC and

27:07

ICJ. USA is not. But but they’ve been prepared to torpedo what’s called international law in order

27:13

to protect Israel from um accountability for genocide. This is both a defeat and a victory for

27:18

international law. It’s a defeat because international law has clearly been breached. But the other side of it is

27:24

that international law has at least given us the opening to do it. And the very brave decision by South Africa to

27:30

do that and I’m part of the H group which we set up through progressive international uh which has just been

27:36

joined by Turkey. So we now have uh 14 nations fully signed up to it and

27:42

another 17 uh discussing it. So we might end up with a UN group of um 40 or 50

27:49

nations signed up to it and after that things change. Just the last thing Karma you worked

27:55

with him because he was in this other cabinet saying he was 100% loyal to Jon Corby and all the rest of it and what do

28:02

you think makes him tick politically? asked this because you know he’s he stood on a what a pack of lies. I’m

28:08

going to leave it alone by I can say it even if you don’t he he lied for his teeth. Um and a recent book um had his

28:16

advisers briefing that Karma he thinks he’s driving the train but we’ve put him

28:21

in front of the district light railway which for those who don’t know is a driverless train but that I mean they’re openly briefing

28:27

that this guy acted on a DLR train is that that’s what they that’s what they said. I’m not even I’m just saying what they

28:32

said that’s his own people. No, but I mean that’s interesting because they’re saying he’s just a front man this guy.

28:37

So what the hell what do you what you you had to work with him? Well, what does it explain him explain him to me?

28:43

Well, I wish I could. Um I appointed him to the shadow cabinet. I thought he was

28:51

very legally qualified. I mean goodness he’d been DPP so you’d expect that and that he would be across the details of

28:58

the endless discussions about the withdrawal agreement etc etc which he was actually we went to Brussels

29:05

together a few times we met Michelle Barier together he um

29:12

didn’t say a vast amount at those meetings but he he did ask he asked questions but most of it was me and

29:18

Barier talking and I was trying to get an agreement with Barier of what we would do as a government in terms of

29:25

trade and all those relations with Europe. Um what I found with Kia was

29:30

that outside of the um formal detailed legal stuff, he had very

29:37

little say and very little opinions on anything. He’s not somebody that would come here to this park with you and me

29:43

and start chatting to the that wonderful woman I’m talking to who’s been walking dogs. He wouldn’t do that. He’s not Mr. Personable,

29:49

you know. No, he’s not. Well, then all politicians don’t have to be Mr. Personable, but I do think you have to have some empathy

29:57

and understanding of people’s lives, what their hopes are, what their fears

30:03

are, and what their wishes are. And uh we live in a country that is deeply

30:10

divided, getting worse. Poverty is getting worse. I’ve never known so many homeless, rush sleeping homeless people,

30:16

never known so many hungry children. I’ve never known people so stressed or so in personal personal debt. And yet

30:23

we’re heading off in a direction of waving flags, spending more money on weapons and less and less on the on the

30:29

needs of people. And we’re doing that on a global scale. The arms race is the thing that is driving so much of it. And

30:36

um the rise of the far right all across Europe reflects that. Just finish on this. the rise of the far right. They’ve

30:43

grown in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria, you know that they set

30:48

up this sort of um wall of 10 15% of the electorate. The

30:55

conservative parties all across Europe have moved to the right because they’re fearful of losing support to the far right, live in a big gap in the middle.

31:03

Social democrat parties, with some exceptions across Europe, have been disgraceful. What they’ve done is bought

31:09

in to the rhetoric that refugees cause problems. Bought into the re the rhetoric that somehow or other desperate

31:16

people in Calala are a threat to our society. Bought into that racist stuff about victims of war

31:23

and then the far right gain support because it’s been legitimized by the whole political

31:30

establishment. Your party.uk will never ever go down

31:36

that road. We’ll be there this weekend opposing the rise of the far right and we’ll be there mobilizing people of all

31:43

faiths, of all communities, of all languages to build a society that’s fit for all of

31:49

us. That’s what we’re about. And do you think Labour’s dead and forever do you think your former

31:54

colleagues who’ve not signed on do would you want them? Do you think this will come over? It’s amazing. When I was reelected to

32:02

parliament last July, I walked into the Labour end of the TA room and I now know

32:09

what happened with the uh partying of the waves. There’s a complete silence when I walked

32:15

in and I just walked through the sways of new Labor MPs. So,

32:20

well, you know, somebody he’s got pneumonic plague by the way, don’t go too near him, you know. So I walked on

32:26

through and um but now what I find is a lot of Labour MPs come and search me out

32:33

in the library. So they look around like this.

32:38

Jeremy, I think you’re doing the right thing. I just thought and there’s a lot of them that sort of say, well, fair

32:45

play to you. You’re doing the right thing. Good luck with the new part. Interesting. Interesting. Are they going to come over tomorrow?

32:52

No. But are they going to work with us? Yeah. So we are therefore a force in

32:58

parliament for social justice and we work with with Rachel Mascll with John McDonald and others opposing the

33:06

two child benefit cap etc. Couple of final things. I mean one is Labour going to say it’s also a far the

33:12

electoral system is what it is and um you like Olympic guys you’re going to

33:17

have to vote for us and this will split the vote and Farage will become prime minister. This is the Manson theory of politics and it goes back along with

33:23

that somehow or other there’s a huge block of workingclass votes out there that will however reluctantly eventually

33:31

be cajol into voting labor because they’ve always done. I think a number of things have changed.

33:36

That is no longer the case. People are less triby loyal to any party or

33:43

grouping than they’ve ever been in the past. More interested in the issues. look at the election results where

33:49

independents are running and by and large not all but by and large independents are a sort of cipher for a

33:56

broadly peaceful left position not exclusively but broadly speaking and so

34:01

I think things have changed and the numbers that have signed up to us I think says it all 600,000 is a pretty

34:09

significant figure that is more than twice the size of any other political party in the country

34:15

finally already finally I just ask you finally, um, Zach Pollinsky is sadly leader of the Greens,

34:20

so I think he’ll win that leadership election. Um, there was a slightly extraordinary discussion on LBC where he

34:26

was on with Adrien Ramsey, who’s one of the newly elected Green MPs, which he was asked if he liked Zack and by the

34:31

way, Zach is a very likable, perfectly, really sweet guy actually. Um, and Adrian could not answer the question. So

34:37

my question is, do you like Zack Palansky? And and more to the point, would you work with the Green Party? And

34:42

what’s your attitude towards the Green Party? I do like Zack Palanski and I think he’s a very engaging, very

34:48

personable and very honest guy. I mean, he and I have had differences in the past, but we’ve got over all that and um

34:56

I personally get on with him. I’ve done meetings with him, anti-terity meetings and so on. Would he work with them? Yes,

35:04

on issues generally. We’d agree on environmental issues. We’d agree on

35:10

social justice issues. uh they’re not a socialist organization and they seem to

35:15

me into an inter eternal riven debate between trying to appeal to a sort of

35:22

semi-conservative voting um suburban electorate as opposed to a committed

35:29

environmentally conscious electorate. So yes, we work with them in parliament and yes, we would cooperate, but we’re not

35:34

forming an alliance with them. They don’t want to form an alliance with us. But we do recognize each other’s positions and I think we will come to

35:40

some good positions and good agreements in the future. Well, you know what’s going to come out of all this? An end to

35:46

the first pass the post electoral system. Do you think that’s what cuz that that will happen. Do you think the next election will be a hung parliament

35:51

basically and that the balance of power will buy enough smaller parties and that

35:57

will force a referendum on Labour’s doing so badly that they’re going to need PR um as are the other

36:04

parties. So I think we’ll get some form of proportional representation. The one I would favor would be a constituency

36:11

system with an added added list. SV is that STV plus you could do STV on a

36:18

constituency basis or you could do the current system on a constituency basis and then have a party add-on but that of

36:25

course reduces the role of um completely independent independence if you know what I mean. So this got to be worked

36:31

out but I do think some form of proportional representation will come. It is absurd that we have a government

36:37

with the biggest majority ever on the basis of less votes than we got when I

36:43

led the Labour Party in 2019. And turnout and several million less than we got in

36:49

the 2017. And that was the the loveless landslide that Labour is now um

36:55

occupying all those seats in parliament with twothirds of the seats with one third of the vote. Yeah. Very finely. If people haven’t signed up

37:01

yet, people are, you know, you you’ve already got 600,000, but there’s that bit loads of people out there who are disillusioned, they’re pissed off, but

37:06

maybe they’re not convinced yet, maybe they’re not sold, maybe they’re not really joining us, you know what I mean? What would you say to them?

37:12

Listen out to what we’re saying. Listen out to what we’re doing, see us in the community, see us working together, and

37:18

see us being um a genuine, welcoming, open house to people to come along. Put

37:24

your ideas forward. We’re going to be Yes. big obviously but also going to be the

37:30

party of creativity, music, culture, art as well as economics that works for the

37:37

people, not works against the people. Jeremy, in 10 years, maybe we’ll do the interview here and see how it’s all panned out.

37:42

That tree will be even bigger by I know hopefully the world when it quite has gone to by then. And you know what? I always think of

37:49

Finsbury Park as the center of my universe. And so we had a poetry evening at a community center down the road last

37:55

week and I read my poem summer in Finsbury Park. Well, check that out. Some is a

38:01

beautiful place to spend. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers, buddy. Thanks, too. What do you reckon, guys? You going to

38:06

sign up? Have you signed up? Is this the big moment that a lot of people have been waiting for? I want to hear your

38:12

thoughts. So, just leave your your comments, your I guess your ideas, really. Uh I do read to your comments,

38:18

including the slightly angrier, spikier ones. Love all of you, of course. Um, but yeah, help us keep the show on the

38:24

road and take on the proje patron.com84. As ever, you make all of this possible.

38:30

Um, press like and subscribe. I think I’ve already said that. And also share the video. I’ll speak to you in a bit.

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uzt. 29

Today at the @UN I set out the UK’s intention to recognise the State of Palestine in September. 1/3 x.com/Palestine_UN/s…

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1 This way, our new Basque government will have infinite money to deal with. (Gogoratzekoa: Moneta jaulkitzaileko kasu guztietan, Gobernuak infinitu diru dauka.)