Azken bolada honetan ikusi dugunez (Israel, AEB eta NATO zale estatu guztiak errudun, Palestinaren genozidioan izeneko sarreretan), onik, deus gutxi espero daiteke NATO-ko estatu kide guztietatik…
Guk GAZA segituko dugu aipatzen.
oooooo
No idea at all!
Aipamena
Elon Musk
@elonmusk
abe. 18
Exactly right. ALL government spending is taxation.
The government either taxes you directly or, by increasing the money supply, taxes you through inflation.
Segida
This is an Israel, European and US genocide!
Genocide in Gaza: Western Moral Collapse in the Age of Hyper-Imperialism… https://youtu.be/MYaZbRnAj2g?si=SY8lGOlS-BhQbd2R
ooo
Genocide in Gaza: Western Moral Collapse in the Age of Hyper-Imperialism | Vijay Prashad
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYaZbRnAj2g)
“This is not just an Israeli genocide – this is an Israeli, European and US genocide!” Vijay Prashad exposes the moral decline of the global north in the age of hyper-Imperialism and its continued war against “defiance” found in the global south. In a recent report published by Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research titled Hyper-Imperialism: A Dangerous Decadent New Stage, Prashad argues the global north has heightened its reliance upon force to insist on obedience. Read the report: https://thetricontinental.org/studies…
Interview recorded 11th November 2024.
__________________________
Vijay is an Indian historian and journalist. He is the author of forty books, including Washington Bullets, Red Star Over the Third World, The Darker Nations: A People’s History of the Third World, The Poorer Nations: A Possible History of the Global South, and The Withdrawal: Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and the Fragility of U.S. He is the executive director of Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research, the chief correspondent for Globetrotter, and the chief editor of LeftWord Books (New Delhi). Ahmed Alnaouq is a Palestinian journalist from Gaza and co-founder of We Are Not Numbers.
__________________________
0:00 Intro
3:30 Has Israel’s level of violence surprised you?
7:50 The International Division of Humanity explained
10:40 What is imperialism?
14:30 The United States and Israel is one country
16:50 Why is Israel so special to the West?
17:30 Israel is NOT in Europe
20:00 Global North’s War on the Global South
25:00 Netanyahu is gaslighting the world
27:00 Israel wants to clear out Palestinians from Gaza
28:30 Egypt has done nothing to support Palestinians
33:00 Can Israel successfully ethnically cleanse Gaza?
35:00 Everyone in Gaza will die before their time
37:00 Gaza was beautiful
42:00 The global north’s economic decline since 2006
45:00 “White fragility” explained
47:00 Germany’s history of genocide
48:30 The global north’s moral decline
50:00 Is Gaza a warning to the future?
52:00 Have the left and trade unions failed Gaza?
56:00 Imperialism will not allow a Free Palestine
58:00 There is no problem in Palestine, Israel has a problem
1:00:50 There is a light at the end of the tunnel
Transkripzioa:
0:00
what is so special about the people in the United States nothing is special they are people just like you and me I
0:06
don’t want to hear an American president ever again lecture me about human rights why 100% yeah because they have been
0:13
sending 2,000 bombs to the Israelis to bomb Palestinian children I don’t you
0:19
know from now till the end of time the Germans need to stop talking about human
0:24
rights my family did not participate in doing a holocaust against anybody there’s a tempt at moral superiority
0:32
yeah so for instance uh they will lecture us about human rights in Iran or
0:37
they lecture us about how Hamas has a bad attitude to women and this and that
0:43
bad attitude to women women are dying under American bombs okay you want to
0:48
you want to criticize the Iranians because they are saying oh you know you should cover your hair women are dying under us bombs I
0:56
don’t want you to tell me about how much hair should be shown or not shown okay you are obliterating people’s heads and
1:04
then lecturing us about the hijab or about whatever this is this is the moral
1:10
decline the moral decline is they still think they are superior when in fact
1:16
they are participating in genocides again I want to underline this this is not a Israeli genocide this is an
1:23
Israeli us European genocide I think it’s very wrong to cons we should P
1:29
Benjamin n shouldn’t bear the whole blame for this Olaf Schulz Emanuel macron K stama before him RI sunak you
1:37
know Joe Biden after him Donald Trump all of them all of them should be
1:42
sitting in a prison cell in the international criminal court hello and welcome back to
1:49
Palestine Deep dive today I’m very happy to be joined with very special guest of
1:54
course because we always have very special guests he is VJ prashad
2:00
I hope I said it correctly absolutely absolutely so VJ is an Indian historian
2:07
and journalist he’s the author of 40 books wow how many years did it take you
2:12
to write 40 books um you know let’s not get into that because they’re not all
2:18
very big books so some of them are quite little for good reason because I believe
2:23
people should read and if you make very fat books they don’t read okay because I
2:29
recently we not numbers we released our first book ever and it felt like it took me so long to release the first book
2:36
although I didn’t write it so when I hear that someone has written 40 books it blows my mind well done good
2:44
job so uh VJ is also an author uh of 40
2:49
books as I said including Washington Bullets red star red star over the third
2:54
world the darker Nations people’s history over the third world uh the the
2:59
poorer Nations a possible history of the global South and many other books so
3:06
let’s start V with your experience during the past year how did you feel uh
3:14
watching this life stream genocide over the past year and a half and has a level
3:20
of barbarity and violence cised you um yes the level of barbarity and
3:28
violence has certainly been shocking I I can’t say it’s surprised me but it’s
Has Israel’s level of violence surprised you?
3:33
been shocking it didn’t surprise me because you know I’ve I’ve been as a
3:39
correspondent in Iraq um in Syria but really Iraq was a test case of this um
3:47
you know people forget that when the United States bombed Iraq from 2003
3:53
onward it was vicious bombing they bombed the entire infrastructure of Iraq
3:59
you know they bombed water purification plants electricity plants they bombed
4:04
the airport they bombed some hospitals they killed journalists including tari
4:10
yakub of Al jazer while he was on air um the violence that the United States
4:17
inflicted on the Iraqis was extreme now there wasn’t access to the images
4:23
because you didn’t have the ubiquity of cell phones and so on um and also the US
4:29
media was able to quite sufficiently suffocate um images coming out of Iraq
4:35
so it’s not like I was you know not expecting something like this in 2014
4:42
the Israelis as part of their punctual bombardment of Gaza you know almost
4:47
every few years 2006 2007 8 9 10 11 12
4:55
13 14 I mean every year in the summertime the Israelis went on on a rampage and bombed one or the other part
5:03
of Gaza when they bombed Gaza in all those years it’s not like they didn’t
5:08
hit the hospitals or didn’t hit the universities or didn’t bomb un
5:13
institutions they were doing it right through those years it’s just that in
5:20
2023 they almost decided to carpet bomb all of Gaza in other words to hit the
5:28
hospitals hit the universities but not hit one Hospital not hit one University
5:34
but flatten all of them and they used 2,500 PB bombs to flatten entire
5:41
neighborhoods 2014 they flatten neighborhoods in jabalia they flatten
5:46
neighborhoods in the center of Gaza City this time they went after almost all neighborhoods so it’s the
5:54
scale not the actual quality of bombing they’ve done this before they they’ve
5:59
attacked you know UNICEF buildings and so on 2014 they bombed the UNICEF building in Gaza Not Unusual the quality
6:08
of the bombing was the same bomb civilian infrastructure but it was the
6:13
sheer quantity they bombed everything that shocked me so it wasn’t
6:20
a surprise it was a shock that the Israelis decided effectively to just
6:25
bomb from one end of Gaza to chase the People South contined to bomb them you know there was
6:32
a lot of expectation that by the time the Palestinian who were fleeing from
6:39
Gaza City got to Kan yunas it would stop but then they went up to and started bombing Kan yunas then as people went
6:46
towards Rafa there was again an expectation you remember it’s going to stop I mean the fact that the Israelis
6:54
ignored everybody they ignored all the governments of the world they ignored
6:59
except the United States because I don’t believe the United States and Israel are two countries I think they are one
7:05
country but everybody else was saying stop stop pause take care nothing not
7:11
one day did they stop uh without wanting to rest some concessions from somebody
7:18
or the other and there was no space for dialogue or negotiation that was shocking and not only that but they also
7:25
the Israeli soldiers while they were killing and destroying University cities and hospitals and schools they filmed
7:32
themselves doing that and they bragged about it so ugly you know it’s it’s in my
7:39
opinion there’s there’s a a concept that I very much hope people will start to
7:44
use and this is the concept of the international division of humanity you know for hundreds of years in a period
7:52
of in a sort of context of colonialism there was an understanding that some
7:58
humans are better than other humans um you know let’s say Europeans or people
8:03
who were considered to be white are superior to everybody else Humanity was
8:09
divided and the people who are not considered to be white um could be just
8:15
killed you know uh the first aerial bombardment takes place against Libya in
8:20
1911 the Italians just carpet bomb the libyans and then bragged about it saying
8:26
that our aerial bombardment is a good education for the tribes the Arab tribes
8:32
in Libya they learned to behave themselves 1924 the British bombed the
8:37
Kurds in Northern Iraq again Arthur bomah Harris writes a report saying you
8:42
know these Kurdish tribesmen they will learn to fear us they’re a lower form of
8:48
humanity when I watched the bombing by the Israelis of the Palestinians it was
8:54
very clear that there was an international division of humanity operating
8:59
you know one Israeli child seemingly According to some calculation in
9:05
Washington DC or in Tel Aviv one Israeli child is worth 10,000 Palestinian
9:11
children if one Israeli child is hurt you are allowed to kill 10,000 palestin that’s that’s the attitude of the
9:19
international division of humanity and the way the soldiers were displaying children’s clothes playing Breaking toys
9:26
and the cruelty you know that Cru y you can’t even say it’s excessive because if
9:33
an international division of humanity is operating it’s normal to treat the
9:39
children of the Savage with absolute contempt and that’s exactly how the Israeli soldiers were behaving they
9:46
treated Palestinians as Savages and this itself has to be considered not just a
9:53
war crime but this is beyond that I mean it’s it’s somehow the even the term
9:58
genocide seems too little this is something beyond that this is an this is a crime
10:05
against civilization yeah I I wouldn’t say that it’s only Israel who treated the Palestinians as Savages but also
10:11
most of the West because they have enabled and participated in this genocide and that actually takes us to another um aspect of the conversation
10:20
today which is a report that you your group uh authored recently it’s called
10:25
hyper imperialism so we’d like to talk a little bit about hyper imperialism but before we go there can you in your own
10:33
words and briefly describe to us or um Define to us what is imperialism what is
10:39
the global South and what is the global North yeah you know this is an old concept imperialism effectively what
10:46
imperialism refers to is a structure in the world where certain people either a
10:52
minority group of people as Nations or a group of Nations uh oppress is the
11:00
majority of the world treats them as subhuman takes their resources and sells
11:07
them finished goods in other words continues to benefit by the subjugation
11:12
of other people using their labor their resources and so on that’s imperialism
11:17
imperialism is something that we experienced you know during the British colonization of large parts of Africa
11:24
Asia French colonization of large parts of Africa some parts of Asia so on I
11:30
mean in a sense um after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire uh the totality of
11:36
Palestine was colonized by the British and was held as a so-called mandate
11:42
Palestine was in British hands and north of Palestine in French hands the French mandate including what is today Lebanon
11:50
um then the extraction of of resources and and the use of other people’s labor
11:57
at lowered cost that’s imperialism you see we live in a slightly different period than the classical imperialism
12:04
why is that well some countries um particularly in the post World War II
12:11
period uh centered around the United States began to mute their various
12:16
differences so the Europeans muted whatever differences they had with the
12:22
United States and they created a block that block has a military Alliance the military Alliance is the north at
12:29
atantic Treaty Organization NATO created in 1949 that block has a very important
12:36
intelligence alliance called the five eyes Network which includes Canada United Kingdom Australia New Zealand and
12:44
the United States that was created in the 1950s now it’s an Eliz movement includes some European countries in
12:52
1974 these countries created a political economic Group which was the G7 it was
12:59
you know Italy West Germany at the time United Kingdom France Canada United
13:05
States um you know and Japan the these were the G7 countries so if you take the
13:11
military Alliance the intelligence Alliance the kind of political um
13:16
guidance coming from the G7 this group becomes the global North uh and this
13:22
group actually unifies policy and starts to act together now we calculated
13:28
military spending by this block the NATO plus block that means the NATO countries
13:34
plus a few allies like Japan and South Korea if you include their total military spending it’s
13:42
74.3% of global military spending you know people think oh my God China is
13:48
becoming a major threat to the world China’s military spending is 10% of the global total Russia 4% it’s this NATO
13:57
plus country with the United States as the major spender on Military um Arsenal
14:04
this is the real threat to the world and Israel is a part of this block I mean
14:09
I’m very much of the view that the debate that has happened over many years
14:15
you know is is the United States directing Israel or is Israel directing
14:20
the United States us this is a debate we should stop having the fact is the
14:26
United States and Israel are one country when it comes to the Palestinians they operate hand in glove um if you start
14:33
thinking that they are not hand in glove you will get confused when Joe Biden would say well we’re trying to tell them
14:40
to have a seized fire but meanwhile he’s shipping 2,000 PB bombs what he’s saying
14:46
is merely to confuse the world in fact they weren’t trying to get Israel to have a ceasefire there’s no evidence of
14:53
that you know blinkin will travel to Tel Aviv 10 times during the conflict but
14:59
okay when the aner Allah government in in in in Yemen said that look we cannot
15:05
any longer tolerate weapons going through the Red Sea and going to help
15:10
Israel kill more Palestinians we’re going to stop that United States government didn’t bother with any
15:16
diplomacy they didn’t send blinken to sah to go and talk to the ansar Allah
15:22
leadership you know there was no diplomatic Overture they just threatened the yemenis and then they bought bomed
15:29
them you know so look in that sense United States was bombing Yemen on
15:34
behalf of Israel where is the space between these countries so we generally
15:39
think of this Global North as a PCT as a block
15:45
Germany with the United States supplied Almost 100% of Israel’s weapons United
15:51
States about 80% Germany close to 20% these are hand in glove Britain provided
15:57
a small percent but still very sophisticated equipment um to the
16:02
Israelis they hand and glove I I don’t imagine that it’s useful to continue the
16:09
debate and discussion whether there’s any difference between Berlin London
16:15
Washington and Tel Aviv I think they are part of a block which we call the global North and they treat um those who are on
16:23
the other side of the international division of humanity without any care for their life for the for the for for
16:31
decency there’s no care and concern at all that actually experience the
16:37
situation very well but my question to you why is Israel so special to the west
16:43
and the West doesn’t only support Israel militarily but also diplomatically with media it is very much part of the West
16:52
part of the north uh of the global North why is that so what is so special
16:59
about Israel I I would like us first to go to something a little absurd just the
17:05
other day an Israeli football team was playing a match in Amsterdam where their
17:12
supporters uh arrived in the city and ran Riot uh tearing down Palestinian
17:17
Flags chanting offensive racist things and then instigating a fight uh against
17:25
the uh supporters of ax the team that was there what was an Israeli team doing
17:31
playing in Amsterdam well Israel plays in the European league but by the way for people who don’t know this Israel is
17:39
in fact in Asia is not in Europe secondly Israel participates in
17:44
Eurovision um Israel is part of Asia it’s not part of Europe but the
17:50
Europeans see Israel as a Garrison a European or white Garrison um that is
17:57
out there like a almost almost like an aircraft carrier in the Arab lands um
18:02
they see Israel as part of them and and I’m I’m saying this now with an
18:08
understanding of the kind of racial or racist metaphysics that Colonial ideology
18:15
produces Israel is Europe in Asia there are so many quotations to this effect
18:22
made by Israeli leaders saying that you know we are a European civilization we
18:28
are a European bastions surrounded by Arabs these are all racist formulations
18:34
you know to call Israel a European part of European civilization is absolutely
18:40
ridiculous what does that mean is it or is it not part of Asia um if it’s part
18:46
of Asia it’s not part of Europe but they don’t mean this geographically the reason Israel is part of Europe is the
18:54
same way Australia is part of Europe Australia also participates in Europe Vision this is a racist metaphysics
19:01
these are white countries um and I don’t think this should be
19:06
underemphasized um they support Israel because it’s a white country fighting against people that they think of as
19:13
dangerous barbarians um and I and I I know I said this before about the international division of humanity but I
19:20
really feel like this gets underplayed and under spoken about in the analysis
19:26
of the genocide against the pales iians that there is an enormous attitude of
19:32
racialist white supremacy that operates here and a kind of assumption in um in
19:40
European and North American countries that somehow the whites of Israel have
19:46
to be defended against the Browns of the Palestinians and that repulses me that
19:52
that is what gives license to Israel to slaughter tens of thousands of people
19:58
including tens of thousands of children um a new report titled hyper
20:05
imperialism a dangerous decadent in New Stage there’s a quote that I would like to read you say it is not a matter of
20:13
exaggerations to say that the global North has declared a state of open hostility and War on any section of the
20:20
global South that does not comply with the policies of the global North what do you mean by this uh
20:27
hostility and War on the global South and where do you see Palestine fits into this so to make the
20:34
point let’s go to Cuba for a minute I just published a book with Nom chsky called on Cuba in the book we make the
20:42
point that the reason the United States is obsessed with this small island with
20:48
only 11 million people less than the people in New York City the reason the
20:53
United States so obsessed is that the Cuban Revolution has been defiant that’s
20:59
a word that the US state department uses it’s Castro’s Defiance that they don’t
21:05
like that’s how they say it and they are worried that that Defiance will become
21:10
contagious so therefore that Defiance has to be destroyed and the way to
21:15
destroy it is to do a blockade against Cuba for now almost 70 years um
21:21
Palestine is actually right in this storyline um it’s very interesting
21:26
because you could make the argument that when the Palestinian leadership which
21:31
had been quite isolated in North Africa you know having been removed from beot
21:37
after the Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982 the PLO had to leave go to North
21:43
Africa were very detached from U the Palestinian uh occupied Palestinian
21:49
territory you know when the first intifa happens in 87 the blo was really not
21:55
able to understand what was going on their links were not is is tight and so on at the time they go towards the
22:02
agreement which we then know as the Oslo agreements 1994 well you would have thought that
22:09
after 1994 after what Edward S called the Versa of the Palestinians a kind of
22:15
surrender that the Israelis in the global North would have said well there’s no more Defiance the Defiance
22:22
has ended and in fact it is to some extent true that there was a little truce that the PA was allowed to
22:30
establish itself particularly in the West Bank not really in East Jerusalem
22:35
which the Israelis were convinced they would Annex at some point they had land on it built universities and so on and
22:42
Gaza was also a kind of expectation that maybe they could settle things there remember they had settlements and so on
22:49
in Gaza what happens subsequent to that is that there were enough factions of
22:56
the Palestinian resistance movement that did not accept Oso um you know some of
23:01
these were of the left but there were also groups like Islamic Jihad Hamas and
23:07
so on that rejected Oslo and it’s their Defiance that makes this idea of Hamas
23:14
so Central uh to the imagination of the West subsequent to um you know the the
23:21
the the Hamas taking winning the Legislative Assembly elections 2005
23:27
that’s when the bombing start of Gaza you know it’s to actually snuff out
23:33
Defiance by Hamas they defied not only Oslo but they defy the global North now
23:40
this doesn’t mean that it’s about Hamas it’s about Defiance and it’s so
23:46
interesting that the West linked Hamas to Iran very early on you know
23:51
regardless of the West’s stereotypical attitude to the Middle East where they
23:57
say well Shia and sunnis don’t get along I mean Hamas had nothing to do with seism you know it comes out of the
24:04
Muslim Brotherhood tradition it was largely getting financing from Qatar and turkey there was really not much Iranian
24:12
influence at all on Hamas but the United States put together all the elements of
24:18
defiance in the Middle East Hezbollah Hamas you know Iran all in one place all
24:25
that Defiance had to be killed off later when un comes in they say again it’s an
24:30
Iranian proxy I mean now Mr Netanyahu is conducting what I think of is an act of
24:38
gaslighting he wants and he’s been trying desperately to turn the genocide
24:45
against the Palestinians into a war against Iran he wants everybody to think
24:51
that what the Israelis are doing is not murdering Palestinians but protecting
24:57
the west from a defying Iran that’s his gaslighting that was I think the reason
25:02
why they go to Iran to kill a Hamas leader they go and and murder Sayad
25:07
Hassan nasrallah who was in fact you know one of the most beloved leaders in
25:13
the Arab world for the fact that he had resisted against um the Israeli occupation of Lebanon legal resistance
25:20
and had defeated the Israelis in fact twice once by forcing the Israelis to
25:26
leave Lebanon in 2000 and and secondly by not being defeated by the Israeli War
25:31
of 2006 the murder of nasrallah the killing of of of of a number of isra
25:38
Iranian generals to try to provoke Iran into a war and Iran has been extraordinary disciplined knowing that
25:46
entering into this conflict actually benefits Benjamin netan because United
25:51
States will come and clobo Iran so you know this idea of defiance that with
25:58
this is why they want to say look we have nothing against the Palestinians we just want to erase Hamas but in fact
26:05
here’s the crazy thing if you just want to take out Hamas why are you bombing civilian buildings at night because then
26:12
you’re killing entire Palestinian families if you just want to go after Hamas stop the aerial bombardment send
26:19
in your military fight house to house to get to the Hamas people why do you think they kill Palestinian civilians entire
26:27
families well what is justification behind this logic that is I think
26:32
something I’ve already mentioned but I think it’s worthwhile putting it together I think they are focusing
26:38
ideologically that they want to eradicate Hamas because this is the logic of getting rid of defiance that’s
26:46
what Israel is telling the West because the West cannot tolerate Defiance the
26:52
attack on Cuba is similar to the attack on Hamas along those lines don’t permit
26:57
defiance because Defiance can be contagious that’s what they telling the west but what in fact the Israelis are
27:03
doing is pretty straightforward they want to clear out Palestinians from Gaza
27:10
look I’ve said for a long time for over 10 years that Israel will never allow
27:16
Israel will never permit a one-state solution one- State solution goes right
27:22
up against the Israeli idea of the Zionist State they know that if in 10
27:29
years the Palestinian population increases above the Israeli Jewish
27:35
population um that the idea that Israel is a Jewish state is going to not work
27:40
they’d have to accept a bational plurinational in fact because you know
27:45
there will be Armenians and a whole other bunch of peoples um you know it would be a plurinational state of if
27:53
it’s a one state that is unacceptable to the Zionist hardcore leadership
27:58
a two-state solution is largely impossible because you know the settlements in the West Bank have eaten
28:05
the territory East Jerusalem is almost completely annexed and they are now
28:10
emptying Gaza what the Israelis want in fact is a three-state solution um that’s
28:16
what they are going for and the three-state solution is Lebanon Jordan and Egypt they want to push the
28:22
Palestinians out into these territories that’s their goal and they are trying to do it in Gaza in a really systematic way
28:31
you know pushing everybody to Rafa and then you know pushing them along and let’s see how long CC can hold out and
28:39
by the way this is an interesting point how long CC can hold out you know it is
28:44
a message to General Abdul Fat Al CCE to go back and read the record of Egyptian
28:52
history from 1948 to 1952 in 1948 during the nakba um the Egyptians tried to do
29:00
something to help very moderate intervention to help the Palestinians um but then they just sat there and you
29:08
know King Faruk had bought all this equipment from the British they didn’t use it in the war um they just sat on it
29:15
there were Radical low-level officers in the Egyptian Army who began to meet and
29:21
they were frustrated and angry that their Palestinian uh neighbors were not being protected and it was this group
29:29
that then overthrew King Faruk and came to power led by Gamal Abdul Naser
29:35
naser’s coup in 1952 is directly related to Egypt not doing anything to help the
29:42
Palestinians General Abdul fat Eli now president has just sat on his hands he
29:48
has not permitted anything he’s not even permitted I mean look Egypt has bought
29:54
the best of American aircraft why didn’t they just fly F their aircraft across
29:59
Gaza and establish a no-fly zone you know 3 or 4 hours a day fly aircraft
30:05
saying we’re not going to permit they did nothing what is happening in the mid-rank air force of the Egyptian um
30:12
you know armed forces are people where is the next Naser I mean I don’t want to
30:18
suggest anything but I mean for God’s sake the Palestinians pushed up against
30:23
the Rafa border nowhere to go no safe Zone and Egypt didn’t just send the
30:29
tanks to smash the gates and go in and establish a safe Zone you know why didn’t the Egyptian Military enter Rafa
30:36
and say you can’t bomb Rafa you know they did nothing and in the middle of all this for all their Brave talk in the
30:43
Gulf Arab states the Emirate of Qatar decides Hamas has to leave I mean is
30:48
this really the time to buckle under us pressure um it’s quite disgraceful
30:54
actually I’m just saying it very directly but it is quite disgrace ful that given that the Israelis have
31:01
demonstrated that they want to push the Palestinians into Egypt into Lebanon
31:06
into Jordan these countries are doing nothing to assist the Palestinians and
31:12
even to prevent you see why is CCE not opening the gates even just temporarily
31:18
I’m not saying Palestinians want to flee the land because he’s saying that because if he opened the gates then the
31:24
Palestinians will leave to Egypt and that would be the the end of Gaza the E cleans with the Palestinians but he’s
31:29
saying it as if he’s protecting Gaza but in fact he doesn’t want the Palestinians to come to sanay to occupy the sa
31:37
Peninsula that’s not something that they want to see either no of course not yeah so you know whatever he’s saying is not
31:44
true in fact that’s why I’m saying that the Egyptian Army could have entered
31:49
because if Egypt had entered that conflict put sent in the tanks up to say canun and said we want to establish a
31:57
safe Zone it could have been a point of negotiation with the Israelis you know even if Egypt and Jordan had threatened
32:04
to tear up the two peace agreements I’m not saying even tear it up Egypt’s peace agreement goes to 78 Jordan’s to 94 just
32:14
threatened to tear them up and then let’s see the reaction from tele they didn’t even put that on the table so in
32:21
my opinion you said why are the is Israelis bombing civilian targets
32:26
killing because they want to remove all the Palestinians they want to claim the whole territory this is now become a
32:33
completely open Agenda by the isra I think it’s very open it’s very clear since the beginning of the war since
32:39
they started asking not asking uh compelling people to live from the north to the South and so on so it was clear
32:45
that they want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians but to what extent do you think that this is actually possible
32:52
that they can that they can manage to ethnically cleanse Gaza and just bumb
32:58
the Palestinians to Sinai or in Egypt I mean to be honest with you I don’t want to answer that question because that
33:04
question makes me very upset and sad because what does what does it imply you
33:09
know you know Gaza of course better than me but those of my friends who are in
33:15
Gaza don’t want to leave of course because they say if we leave it’s nagba number 100 okay you know during this
33:22
terrible genocide the great lebonese novelist ilas kurri died uh as kurri um
33:29
you know who wrote a great novel about Palestine also used to say there was
33:34
never a nakba there was no nbar of 1948 there is a permanent nbar you know that
33:41
concept of the permanent nbba stays with me yeah so people say we don’t want to leave because the permanent NBA means we
33:49
can never come back and so if we accept that and if people are not going to leave if tomorrow the Egyptians by some
33:56
strange thing open the gate and people say we still won’t leave will the Israelites kill them all you know right
34:03
now the world is not stopping the bombing so then the answer to your
34:09
question is well they’ll just kill everybody you know they’ll kill everybody I mean the other day I was
34:16
explaining to some people if you never been to a war zone there are two elements of war that are often neglected
34:23
you know in terms of explaining to people one is the noise it’s Earth shattering you know the sound of War
34:30
children are terrorized for their whole life their whole life they are they suffer from PTSD you know because the
34:36
noise which happens at night see it it was acceptable or understandable that in
34:42
an earlier era if I had the means to shoot down a plane then you bomb at night it’s understand but now nobody can
34:50
fire at Israeli plane they still bomb at night and they bomb people sleeping in their homes that’s why so many children
34:56
are dying yeah they still bombing this is terrifying because you don’t know you know when a bomb Falls there’s that
35:03
sound and then the explosion right next to you over there you don’t know if you are next it’s terrorizing second thing
35:10
is the dust it’s hard to explain to people all modern buildings are made with epoxy with plastic with all kinds
35:18
of chemicals and so on when you bomb a building the dust is everywhere and even
35:24
survivors are breathing it so now you have 2.3 Palestinian 2.3 million
35:29
Palestinians yeah you’ve got maybe 60 70,000 the numbers are so unclear let’s
35:34
say 100,000 dead um of the remaining 2.2 million Palestinians everybody has
35:42
breathed in these toxic fumes everybody’s going to die before their
35:47
time okay so the genocide has been complete already yeah yeah it’s already
35:52
done it’s just that people are not going to die for you know immediately but
35:57
they’re going to die shorter than their lifespan that is horrendous so the ethnic cleansing the force displacement
36:06
all of these routine crimes against humanity which amount to genocide all of
36:12
this is happening right now answer to your question if people don’t run I
36:17
think they’re going to try to kill them which is why stopping the Israelis now and stopping the Americans now is
36:24
absolutely paramark what do you think is the core of this Annihilation and violence
36:29
wielded against these Palestinians today because we talked about political
36:35
and economics and ethnic cleansing and and genocide what what do you think the
36:41
core of all of these of this Annihilation is it theh humanization or something else I mean it is this idea of
36:48
the international division of humanity it really is you know it’s the idea of
36:53
of eviction you know you can you you why should look let me go back hundreds of
37:00
years um when the when the first English Pioneers so-called Pioneers landed in
37:06
North America um They seized the land um John Lock was an English nobleman he
37:13
owned a lot of land in Virginia um while he was a land owner in Virginia with
37:18
slaves and so on Lo wrote one of the most important texts of liberalism and
37:24
that is the two treaties on government you know it’s a text taught to Children the second tretis is a really important
37:31
text and the best part of it is often not given to people to read in the in
37:36
the Second Treatise John Lock argues that God gave nature to humans to
37:45
improve and if humans don’t improve nature then they don’t have a right to
37:51
it they can be removed from it and those who want to improve nature should take
37:56
it over yeah this racist idea which validated the expropriation of native
38:03
land in the Americas it’s at the heart of liberalism right you know this idea
38:09
that the people who are natives are not exploiting nature so get rid of them
38:15
exploit nature this idea lingers in a kind of um civilization you know Western
38:22
Civilization that continues to see those who don’t quote unquote improved nature
38:28
should be removed I mean look firstly it’s ridiculous because Gaza was a highly developed Gaza City is a highly
38:35
developed City it had universities it had everything it had malls for goodness sake with escalators and fountains and
38:43
you know all the things you’d imagine so it was not like the Palestinians were
38:48
you know living in tents and so on they had worked hard to develop and build a
38:53
civilization in fact when I was in Gaza I was so pleased to to see a large number of art galleries of um you know
39:00
people loved painting and museums and you know all of that but they still
39:06
manag to convey to people outside that Gaza is a refugee camp and the
39:11
Palestinians they are living like Savages and therefore let’s remove them all and build hotels Resorts uh you know
39:20
Coastal property for the Israelis not for the palestin no not for the because the Palestinians don’t know how to do
39:25
that that’s the implication deserve to live they don’t deserve to live because they can’t live like you know people on
39:32
that other side of the international division of humanity and by the way they are saying it directly they are saying
39:38
it you know people who have been to the Mediterranean they understand how beautiful the Mediterranean is um the is
39:46
Palestinians who live in the West Bank and in East Jerusalem grow up never having seen the sea because they are not
39:53
allowed through the past restrictions most of them are not allowed to enter into 48 Israel and go to the beaches
40:00
where Tel Aviv and so on is they’ve never seen the sea it’s the Palestinians in Gaza who get an opportunity to go
40:07
into the sea and it is really compellingly beautiful children playing
40:13
football on the beaches of Gaza an Israeli plane flies over them and five
40:19
little boys are mowed to death while they play football um you know and then what do the Palestinian artists do they
40:26
go to the beach Beach and they make a beautiful beach sculpture of the five boys playing football that was 10 years
40:34
ago you know and and then the vision comes they don’t deserve to use these beaches these beaches must be owned by
40:41
the big multinational hotel chains they have to be owned by the extremely rich
40:47
Israeli families Palestinians don’t deserve the beach because as John lock
40:52
says they haven’t used the beach like God intended which is private property
40:58
giant houses for the rich instead the beaches of Gaza were open to
41:04
everybody wow okay let me go back to the to this report you produced
41:11
recently uh allow me to read this very long quote and maybe we need to spend
41:17
some time exing to explaining it to to us please so he said over the last 20
41:23
years the global North has endured a significant uh relative economic decline among along
41:31
with political social and moral decline it is false its false moral claims of
41:36
civil rights and impressive Freedom are now complete mockeries as they seek to make illegal the public including online
41:44
support for Palestinian rights this fullon support for the humiliation and
41:50
destruction of the darker people of the world is reminiscent of past centuries
41:55
exposing what can be described as colle Ive white fragility there is a lot that we need to entangle here but can you
42:02
explain to us what is the economic decline that the global North is facing right now we’re enduring well since
42:09
2006 the you know the capitalist countries of Europe and the United
42:14
States have been in the middle of a major depression I mean they don’t call it a depression because they have
42:21
created a definition of a depression which is three cycles of downward growth
42:28
this is not sufficient I mean these countries are unable to demonstrate a growth rate the reason it’s not a
42:35
depression is if your growth rate is near zero it’s not going to go down any further it’s basically sitting around
42:41
zero 1% 1.2% you know the this is a nothing
42:46
growth rate uh these economies are significantly hemorrhaging I mean we are sitting in London and talking in the
42:53
United Kingdom they decided let’s build highspeed rail that will go from Edinburgh to Manchester down from
43:01
Manchester to London then you know from Edinburgh I think to leads into London a
43:06
kind of diamond shape and from London all the way to Paris and then to rail
43:11
networks in Europe they had to cancel it I mean in fact at the conservative conference former conservative leader
43:19
Rishi sunak had to go there and say no more highspeed rail to manchest embarrassing they can’t even build a
43:25
train in Germany the train system is gone for a six doesn’t exist anymore
43:30
it’s in really bad shape United States I mean look you know between Beijing and
43:36
Shanghai it used to take 34 hours to go by train now it takes 4 hours and the
43:42
train is fantastic from 34 hours to 4 hours okay the train runs at 300 km an
43:49
hour in the United States the train runs at about 100 km an hour I mean I’m using
43:54
trains as an example but we can talk about other things you know want to talk about phones you want to talk about
44:00
solar energy in all these areas the West is no longer the dominant player in
44:06
producing modern technology their economies are in Decline I mean the you
44:12
can see it walking around the streets it seems like this is a civilization that’s
44:17
willing to tolerate having people without homes you know living on the street it’s willing to tolerate
44:23
childhood poverty increasing United Kingdom childhood poverty is gone up United States childhood poverty is gone
44:30
up these are situations of decline meanwhile at the same time China has
44:35
eradicated absolute poverty uh they have these highspeed rails I mean the the I’m
44:40
just comparing the two to make a point the quote you read ends with a phrase white fragility this is a very important
44:48
concept for me what do this referred to I mean you know there was a feeling that
44:53
if the United States puts enough pressure on China ch China might reverse some of its gains they might de
45:00
accelerate recently the University of Chicago Professor um John mimer said in
45:07
an interview that he thinks it’s too late that China will now no longer be
45:12
able to be pushed back you know and the United States uses that for gain the only way the US can push China back is
45:19
if the US uses its military power to bomb all of China it’s very unlikely that they’re willing to risk a nuclear
45:27
um war on the other hand white fragility there is a fragility involved here they
45:33
cannot tolerate the fact that they are just other people on the planet Earth I
45:39
mean what is so special what is so special about the people in the United
45:44
States nothing is special there are people just like you and me number of homeless people well there’s that but I
45:51
mean they are just people like us there is no international division of humanity we are just people so I mean the only
45:58
way for the United States to come to terms with the fact that it’s not going to be the leading economy it’s not going
46:05
to be the main political power and so on is if the people realize that they are
46:11
just like everybody else nothing special but because they’re not able to realize that uh there is this white fragility
46:18
that blocks everything and this is that idea that how can we become Ordinary People we are special so that’s why that
46:25
term white fragility is there creates a kind of uh sensibility that you know one
46:30
mustn’t uh make us ordinary we are special you’re not special you’re not
46:36
special there’s no difference between somebody in Germany and a Palestinian
46:42
nothing different you’re both people you know there’s nothing Superior about you
46:48
and I’m actually quite fed up listening to European and US politicians talk as
46:53
if they are superior to the rest of us you know lecture us about human rights and so on I don’t want to hear an
46:59
American president ever again lecture me about human rights why 100% yeah because
47:05
they have been sending 2,000 bombs to the Israelis to bomb Palestinian children I don’t you know from now till
47:12
the end of time the Germans need to stop talking about human rights my family did
47:18
not participate in doing a holocaust against anybody okay I have no roots you
47:23
know their civilization actually did Holocaust first in Namibia it killed the
47:30
um the Herrero and Nama people between 1904 and 1906 a genocide then they
47:36
killed Jews Gypsies Communists but mainly Jews um in the Gen in the
47:42
Holocaust in in Germany and in Eastern Europe that was the Germans and also the
47:47
white people killed each other in the World War I and World War II they slaughtered each other with mustard gas
47:53
and whatever I don’t want them to lecture us on human rights okay we are developing you know what’s human rights
48:01
nobody living on the street that’s human rights if um K stama who’s supposed to
48:07
be a great human rights lawyer wants to lecture about human rights let him first
48:12
eradicate uh the problem of people having no homes in London in fact in his
48:18
own constituency in London where I was today and I saw people living on the
48:25
street true tell us more about the moral decline
48:30
that you also mentioned in this quote Yeah I mean it’s related to this you know there’s a moral um there’s a
48:36
attempted moral superiority yeah so for instance uh they will lecture us about
48:42
human rights in Iran or they lecture us about how Hamas has a bad attitude to
48:48
women and this and that bad attitude to women women are dying under American bombs okay you want to you want to
48:55
criticize the Iranians because they are saying oh you know you should cover your hair women are dying under us bombs I
49:03
don’t want you to tell me about how much hair should be shown or not shown okay you are obliterating people’s heads and
49:11
then lecturing us about the hijab or about whatever this is this is the moral
49:17
decline the moral decline is they still think they are superior when in fact
49:23
they are participating in genocides again I want to underline this this is not a Israeli genocide this is an
49:30
Israeli us European genocide I think it’s very wrong to cons we should poor
49:36
Benjamin Netanyahu shouldn’t bear the whole blame for this Olaf Schulz Emanuel macron K stama before him Rishi sunak
49:44
you know Joe Biden after him Donald Trump all of them all of them should be
49:49
sitting in a prison cell in the international criminal court is Gaza a
49:54
warning to the Future and why should people in the west be concerned about what’s happening in Gaza and the genocide in Gaza well a couple of things
50:02
one is yes Gaza is a warning in the same way as what is being done to the Cuban
50:08
Revolution is a warning if you defy the West they will whack you they are like a
50:13
mafia they don’t tolerate any Defiance you know anybody who defies will be hit
50:19
but it’s also a warning to the West that you know your plans of eradicating
50:24
defiance are not going to win you know you can kill as many people as you want
50:29
okay tomorrow they’ve destroyed Hamas but just a reminder to people in the west Hamas was created in the 1980s um
50:38
this struggle for Palestinian Liberation starts in the 1930s you know with the
50:44
Revolt of of of 1930 1936 36 Revolt the Palestine Revolt it
50:52
starts then it’s 12 years before the the nakba you know the revolt has a long
50:57
history British mandate against the British mandate against the selling of land to Colonials and so on it’s a very
51:04
long history there was no Hamas in 1936 there was no Hamas in 48 there was no
51:09
Hamas in 67 there was no Hamas in 73 Hamas comes in the 1980s so I think they
51:16
might eradicate Hamas today but they’re not eradicating the Palestinian resistance it will take its form and for
51:24
those who believe that if Hamas goes every ends you’re not watching what happened in China the Chinese brought
51:30
together 14 Palestinian factions to sit down for the first time in decades and
51:36
build a common agenda and platform it’s not about Hamas anymore it’s about the Palestinian resistance and that is not
51:44
gone that is intact and will reappear immediately do you think that the the
51:51
lift in the west has failed Gaza trade unions and workers movements all around
51:56
the world do you think they have failed Gaza I don’t think they’ve failed Gaza I think that they’re up against something
52:02
difficult you know trade unions in India the Dockers Union said we will not load ships with weapons to Israel um I think
52:10
the Belgian unions the Union in in Western Australia lots of unions did
52:16
things South Africa and so on I think the rolling demonstrations in the United
52:21
States have played a major role in changing Global Consciousness you know every day in New York City there’s some
52:28
demonstration in front of the New York Times in you know when I went to two of them in in the United States very large
52:35
sincere young people very angry in the halls of the US Congress there’s always somebody from Cod pink or from one of
52:42
the groups interrupting saying this is a genocide why are you supporting genocide similarly in Europe there’s been
52:49
constant you know but in a sense this left is too weak it’s not strong enough
52:57
I mean to confront the US war machine will take something else it it will take
53:02
a a shift in the geal political balance of forces I mean a million people
53:08
demonstrated in New York City to prevent the US from going into an illegal war
53:13
against the Iraqi people in 2003 and George Bush just set it aside you know I
53:19
don’t think and I’m a little pessimistic about the ability of movements in the
53:24
global North to change the balance of forces on their own I think the rise of
53:29
India Indonesia China you know the appearance of countries on the African
53:35
continent being very brave I think the um the kind of the clarity of the
53:41
Colombian government of Gustavo Pro and so on I think this is changing the
53:46
balance of forces um I don’t think the left in the west workers movements and
53:52
so on can do it on their own but this pressure from outside you know the mexic government now of Claudia shine bomb
53:59
before of Andres Manuel Lopez auor this is changing the conversation you know
54:05
the fact that South Africa goes to the international court of justice and is backed by the Latin American governments
54:11
I think sends a really strong message to the global North that the world is no
54:17
longer taking leadership from London or Paris or Washington or Brussels people
54:22
are not interested they’re looking elsewhere for leadership in fact they’re looking to the elves the ketas in the
54:28
sahil region you know that go from uh from from Mali out to ner these
54:34
governments fierce in their determination to have an independent foreign policy I mean India is an
54:40
interesting case in point India has not supported Israel in this war India right
54:46
through this period has called for the two-state solution which effectively means no annexation of Gaza that’s an
54:53
important gesture now it’s also true that they allow workers to go to Israel and you know
54:58
it’s complicated but they didn’t take a position which I thought they would take they stayed within the realm of the
55:05
bricks position which is supporting a two-state solution calling for a ceasefire the world is changing the West
55:12
is no longer going to be able to dictate its terms without using force and that’s
55:18
why in that report that you you you you you read from that’s why we call it a
55:23
decadent and dangerous global North because it is decadent because its
55:29
leaders don’t Inspire they don’t have any ideas they are basically mediocre
55:35
useless people and it’s dangerous because they can’t Inspire their only
55:40
instrument is war and that’s what they go go to you know all they know is war
55:47
and that cannot win them the respect of the world in fact it increases their
55:52
decadence so their decadence and their dangerousness goes together in a spiral
55:58
downwards what does a liberated Palestine mean to the region and will capitalism allow of free Palestine I I
56:06
don’t know about the second point will capitalism allow free Palestine but I know for a fact that imperialism will
56:13
not uh it will not want to see a free Palestine I mean this is bringing us to
56:18
a very complicated area because in a sense it’s hard to imagine what is a
56:25
free Palestine there are so many people who promote the idea of the one state solution you know a kind of L shaped
56:33
country uh which includes all of historical Palestine the Golan you know
56:38
goes back to Syria um perhaps meta’s finger goes back to Lebanon and the rest
56:44
remains a Palestine where all the people live in a kind of plurinational system
56:50
um I don’t know if that is going to be possible with a without a lot more struggle I mean in a sense this is not a
56:57
struggle of the Palestinians I think the Palestinians would accept a one-state solution this is a struggle within
57:04
Israeli Society Israeli Society has decayed it has distorted itself it has
57:10
become a military Society Zionism is no longer Zionism it’s gun Zionism it’s a
57:17
militarized form of Zionism it’s a Zionism of settlers with guns who
57:22
intimidate other people it is a Zionism that has come to believe the biblical
57:28
prophecy as real all of that has to be undone culturally in Israel before you
57:34
can think about a one state um so short of that yes you can have enclaves called
57:40
free Palestine but look frankly Gaza over here the West Bank over there maybe
57:46
a part of East this is not liberated Palestine this is a joke I mean you’re not even following Oslo and creating
57:54
ability for people to go between the West Bank and Gaza these are little tiny statelets this is South Africa in the
58:01
last days of apide you know building the Frontline States this is not real um
58:07
it’s not a Palestinian problem we don’t actually we’re not at the threshold of a
58:12
Palestinian problem this region the Levant faces an Israeli problem Israel
58:19
has a problem it has a cultural problem it has to deal with its own population
58:24
um there is no problem in Palestine culturally so I I don’t think Palestinians need to move very much you
58:32
know in terms of cultural um thinking about the future Israel has to move
58:38
miles and I’m not sure it has the capacity uh right now to move it doesn’t
58:43
have the intellectual leadership to move it doesn’t have the political leadership it certainly doesn’t have the moral
58:49
leadership nobody seems to be willing to stand up there and confront the rot of
58:55
guns iism everybody is with it I mean the difference between y have Galant and
59:01
Benjamin Neto is zero I mean it’s about tactics not about gun Zionism I I cannot
59:07
find a politician in Israel today who will stand up clearly against gun
59:13
Zionism they all United in that and that is the downfall of of of the Israeli
59:19
moral project um there’s no room for a moral project anymore this is a military
59:25
project Israel is becoming a military Garrison and that’s what it’ll have to
59:31
survive as it’s a Garrison State it has no moral claim to the world any longer
59:37
it’s like it has become the battleship you know of of the West right there it’s
59:43
like a ship sitting off the coast of the mediterran you know of the Mediterranean Coastline um they don’t have the
59:50
capacity right now to transform themselves and that really is the tragedy of of Palestine that is a
59:58
tragedy for Palestine and that’s a tragedy for the Israelis themselves I mean for the Israelis it’s a greater
1:00:04
tragedy because the their capacity to be moral beings is in question there is no
1:00:11
such problem for the pal which is why I said the Palestinians are ready to take
1:00:16
the next step forward but the Israelis are not and that moral capacity you know
1:00:21
to meet the Palestinians and build a society together is just not there they
1:00:26
want to create Israel as a giant gated community in fact as I said earlier a giant military Camp you know and and
1:00:34
that’s not sustainable uh in the world you know people will not permit that Colombia which used to supply 60% of
1:00:43
Israel’s coal has this August stopped sending coal to Israel at all there will
1:00:49
be no more coal going from Gustavo Petro Colombia to Israel that means 60% of
1:00:55
Israel supply of coal has gone other countries are filling it in for now South Africa strangely seem to be
1:01:01
filling in the Gap there’s a lot of pressure from the trade unions from KATU and num to prevent any South African
1:01:09
coal going to Israel when that gets cut off um you know the next Supply is
1:01:14
Russia will Russia stop supplying coal to Israel if you don’t have a moral place in the world people are just going
1:01:21
to stop um supplying you then it’s up to the United States or maybe the Europe the the Europeans don’t have access to
1:01:27
energy where are they going to get coal from will it come from Australia it’ll be enormously expensive these are the
1:01:33
kind of compelling ways in which gun Zionism will find itself
1:01:39
isolated lastly do you think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the
1:01:44
Palestinians of course there’s a light at the end of the tunnel there’s a light of the at the end of the tunnel for all
1:01:50
human beings all human beings have a light at the end of the tunnel I mean look we have to also remember that
1:01:58
millions of Palestinians live outside the region they are part of the Palestinian permanent exiled Community I
1:02:06
live in Santiago in Chile in Chile there are half a million Palestinians you know they have a football team the
1:02:13
Palestinians um there is always going to be a Palestinian flag flying somewhere
1:02:19
in the world the question you’re asking is a different one is there a future for
1:02:24
Palestine um and I think that’s a complicated question Palestinians will live forever because I don’t think that
1:02:32
families exiled permanently in the United States or in in you know in
1:02:38
Britain Palestinian families will not any longer tell their children you are a Palestinian we come from you know from
1:02:45
nabiis we come from Bethlehem we come from here there don’t forget it you know
1:02:51
this kafia is a color that reflects our part of these memories are going to
1:02:56
remain you know the the traditions of food and culture will remain why because this the people has got a moral claim on
1:03:04
the world so I don’t think Palestinians don’t have a future Palestinians have a future the idea of Palestine has a
1:03:11
future does the territory of Palestine have a future that is a very difficult
1:03:18
thing to answer because that has again nothing to do with the Palestinians it has everything to do with the moral
1:03:24
collapse of Israel if Israel can rejuvenate itself then perhaps there
1:03:30
will be a state with Israelis and Palestinians in that territory um you
1:03:36
know I worry that in the short term what will a gun Zionist government do to
1:03:42
things like the alaka mosque I mean these are very dangerous times dangerous
1:03:48
provocative things can be done there are dangerously provocative far right-wing
1:03:53
Israeli groups that could do of Terror against Im Just unbelievably important
1:04:01
places that are within their territorial control so I don’t know where this goes
1:04:06
but I do hope you know for the sake of all of us that Israel finds a way to
1:04:12
rejuvenate society and some moral Force appears and basically attacks and
1:04:17
destroys gun Zionism and creates Humanity an Israeli Humanity that is not
1:04:23
committed to massacring entire peoples F thank you very very very much for
1:04:29
joining us that was very powerful and Illuminating it’s a pleasure for me to be here thanks a lot thank you very
1:04:37
much as Israel attempts to erase the Palestinian people under the cover of Darkness targeting journalists and
1:04:44
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“Beginning of End” For Zionism – Israeli Historian w/. Ilan Pappé https://youtu.be/16EjsiOyb_s?si=PHkTtQcIzTtrFUrL
ooo
“Beginning of End” For Zionism – Israeli Historian w/. Ilan Pappé
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16EjsiOyb_s)
Transkripzioa:
0:00
now Ilan Pape the celebrated Israeli historian has been long one of the most
0:05
important voices that we have when it comes to docking about Israel and Palestine and since the current genocide
0:13
began um of course his voice has become even more important than than ever um
0:19
Elan it’s such an honor to be able to speak to you belatedly I should have done this a long time ago um so I’m glad
0:24
we’re finally communicating on video and I know my audience would be delighted uh great to speak to you how you doing
0:30
I’m fine thank you and thank you so much for having me yes we we already planned that long time ago I’m glad it unfolded
0:38
eventually it’s finally it’s finally happened um so look let’s just actually begin you know we’re coming to the end
0:44
now of 2024 and already I remember thinking back to the end of 2023 and thinking about the horror being
0:52
Unleashed against the people of Gaza and I have to say if I knew maybe I
0:58
wouldn’t be shocked but knew a year later we’d be discussing still
1:03
the Apparently Limitless amount of depravity being released against the people of Gaza I think i’ I’d been pretty chilled
1:10
by that to be honest and here we are what what have you I want to ask you as a you know this you’re a historian of
1:17
Israel and palestin you know historical context is always on your mind what have
1:23
you learned since October 2023 has anything changed in the way you look at
1:29
this yes I think in in two in two ways something I think two aspects became a
1:37
bit clear uh compared to our all of ours more immediate reactions and and you
1:44
know immediate reactions are sometimes a bit uh a Miss because it makes sense you
1:50
don’t have a perspective and and you you don’t really know how things develop but I think now we have a better sense so so
1:57
one thing that is is clear to me although I already felt this was true even few months after the 7eventh of
2:04
October that contrary to what some people say we are not at the beginning
2:11
of the worst chapter in the history of Palestine and the Palestinians in
2:17
general and that of Gaza of course in particular I think we are in the end of that chapter so I think I think that
2:24
this kind of chapter in history that began in in the nakba in 1948 some
2:30
people rightly would say maybe even earlier but definitely with the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and the Palestinian
2:36
call this whole historical chapter the ongoing in
2:42
Arabic this this is now reached an aex undoubtedly of of brutality of
2:48
ruthlessness ethnic cleansing has turned in into genocide all this is true but I
2:54
don’t think it’s an indication that now a long chapter of uh destruction is
2:59
continue I really think that this is going to be uh uh the beginning of the
3:05
end of of the Zionist colonialist project in Palestine exactly because it
3:10
is so ruthless and because and and we may elaborate about it a bit later but
3:15
that that’s one one kind of analysis that I hesitant I hesitated to to to
3:22
present at the very beginning of the events and now I’m much more confident about it the second one and this is
3:29
still for me the greatest surprise if you want or bewilderment of what happened I mean I was not surprised by
3:37
the the level of violence the Hamas performed on the 7th of October and I’m
3:43
afraid to say that I was not surprised by the level of the brutality and inhumanity of of the Israeli reaction I
3:50
was surprised by the total indifference of the West and in particular of the
3:55
European West uh uh this is still something that I don’t I I can provide
4:01
some partial explanation for why this indifference to the most televised daily
4:07
genocide we’ve ever had since the the beginning of the end of the second world war but I’m still find it Beyond
4:16
Comprehension uh and that is a process that has to my mind impact beyond the
4:23
question of Gaza or Palestine I think that impacts the whole issue of the international legal system the whole
4:29
whole issue what are Universal values and the face of the global South in anything that the global North or Global
4:36
West would put forward as universal principles for running the
4:42
world or or the order in the world so so I think that that’s a huge crisis of
4:48
confidence in in international institutions and laws that will have
4:54
far-reaching impact on all of us wherever we are uh in years to come I
5:01
mean before I ask you about the first part which is very very challenging I think a lot of people listen to that
5:07
particularly in the Here and Now would would definitely obviously want me to ask you to expand on that so I will but
5:12
before I do I mean that that second point you talk about the indifference because I think I mean one thing I’ve always said is never stop being shocked
5:18
even if you understand the Dynamics it play you can understand the Dynamics it play but you should never be numb but it
5:23
is is is about that which is I wrote a piece um uh last month where I just the
5:29
reason I was really struck by what you said is is is I tried to put that in words um and I wrote about an apparently
5:35
invisible Fortress the West’s official Narrative of Israel’s Onslaught against Gaza and and what I was trying to look
5:42
at is it didn’t matter how depraved the atrocity or how overwhelming the evidence or how confess to the crime
5:48
because you know as razy gal the Israeli American associate professor of Holocaust and genocide study puts it
5:53
it’s very rare for intent actually to be so explicit in these cases and we’ve seen that from the very start but it
5:59
doesn’t matter the narrative always the official respectable narrative always survives when you and I talk about say
6:06
genocide or even war crimes that almost puts a badge on us as outside of the official respectable narrative we’re
6:12
extreme we’re radicals dangerous do you see what I mean and I’m interested in that no it’s almost though there’s no
6:19
level of depravity or confession to depravity that narrative has remained
6:25
titanium protected nothing seems to budget in respectable circles yeah well
6:30
definitely first of all it’s a fair analysis I I think very few people can argue with you that this is the
6:36
situation now let’s see if we can at least unpack it a bit and and see if we can explain it my maybe it’s the
6:44
historian in me but I do think there is an historical context for that kind of immunity that kind of
6:50
exceptionalism uh this this kind of gap between the reality uh the Stark reality
6:56
on the ground and the false uh uh language and vocabulary used to to describe it by people who definitely are
7:03
not idiots and one cannot suspect that they are not educated or knowledgeable and yet they do it maybe even knowingly
7:11
or maybe unconsciously I don’t know but I do think it’s especially in Europe let’s put the the Americans aside for a
7:18
moment that was a good idea um um the the Europeans I think still treat
7:28
this whole issue of Israel and Palestine is something that they are part of uh
7:34
and and their part in it is is is not a pleasant one it’s almost like a complicity Zionism in the end of the day
7:41
was as a European solution for European problem the problem was the way Europe
7:48
treated his Jews uh uh through racism and eventually through through genocide
7:53
and and and Zionism whoever conceived it provided this easy way out uh
8:00
by by saying we we’ll build a European Jewish State at the heart of the Arab world at the heart of the Muslim World
8:06
we’ll impose it on the indigenous people of Palestine and by that we can forget
8:11
about it uh but but it seems that it doesn’t work and and and and therefore in order I think in order not to fully
8:19
uh appreciate and accept the the consequences of this impracticable
8:26
immoral uh project that was sustained through force not through moral validity
8:32
only through force uh uh I think this is where there’s still a hope that maybe
8:37
with language they can kind of launderette the fact that uh the solution for this European problem was
8:44
the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinians not only saving the Jews but actually destroying another people
8:51
uh and and all these European you know Juggy saying it’s a small Injustice to
8:58
to rectify a bigger one after the last year you cannot even
9:04
say that sentence in any serious Manner and I think that that is really the issue here as long as the Israeli
9:11
oppression was incremental here and there Justified or could be covered up as part
9:18
of self-defense and part of an attempt to sustain a so-called peace process
9:24
fine it worked but what Israel did in Gaza did not allow any any such
9:31
maneuvering or manipulations and I think that’s part it’s a partial explanation I don’t think it’s the only one and our
9:38
Marxist friends rightly would would add some economic uh interest into that but
9:44
I think that’s a very important uh psychological infrastructure uh uh for that kind of uh
9:52
incomprehensible uh uh indifference uh to the suffering of of of people uh
9:58
which is daily screen on our phones and and televisions and and and so on yeah I
10:04
mean with with that I mean you know it’s the live streaming as you said I mean obviously the work of Palestinian journalists he suffered the biggest
10:11
thought of journalists in recorded history often alongside their family their their children um but the I mean
10:17
that point about intent about confession which i’ I’ve tried to raise over and over again but but it’s it’s almost like
10:23
it’s compartmentalized in a parallel universe in that you’ll get Israeli leaders and officials who say one thing
10:29
to their local audiences um and then they have their
10:35
spokespeople who come on Western media Outlets to claim they’re abiding by international law and not attacking civilians um which they don’t say
10:42
actually to the if you listen to what they say at home in Hebrew I mean it’s I
10:47
mean that’s almost it’s been that’s what’s happened is it’s almost you know I mean Western media coverage didn’t
10:53
frame itself around that intent I often give this hideous example to be honest
10:58
right at the beginning um and this was um the um Israeli
11:04
general in charge of Kat which is for those who don’t know these civilian Affairs and he said Hamas became Isis
11:10
and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified Human animals are dealt with accordingly Israel has
11:16
imposed a total blockade on Gaza no electricity no water just damage you wanted hell you will get hell that was
11:22
in a tweet addressed to both Hamas and the residents of Gaza so there’s no pretense there but that was almost not
11:28
covered in any sing Western media Outlet do you see what I mean it just has it’s a different universe that’s how it has to you just you just have to just
11:35
pretend it’s not being said or done absolutely you know sometimes I think the Israelis treat Hebrew as a
11:42
secret language and and therefore they allow themselves to say things that they think that afterwards nobody would hear
11:48
and it’s just for domestic consumption and then they’re really surprised when it turns out that some people who speak
11:54
Hebrew are horrified by what they said and translated to other languages
12:00
uh and if you look at the dossier that uh South Africa presented to the
12:05
icj uh it’s definitely I don’t think all the people who were in this delegation knows Hebrew but they have enough people
12:11
who help them to translate uh uh uh into English uh these clear manifestation of
12:19
intent uh by senior politicians senior Military Officers and if you go even
12:26
deeper into this to the uh orders that were issued by Brigade commanders on the
12:32
eve of the entry to Gaza uh you will find this language uh uh of an
12:39
intentional genocide all over it uh uh including references to to biblical uh
12:45
uh chapters of uh you know genociding the amales uh and so on I mean this is
12:52
uh unfortunately it’s a very easy case I would say for for anyone who takes the
13:00
the most known definition of genocide in the United Nation Charter and checks
13:06
whether this definition fits the case study of the Israeli intent right here
13:11
as you say not only the manifestations or the application of of that policy on
13:17
the ground I I would go even further and and and this is something that really we
13:24
have to we have to take into account because I do believe as I said in my first point
13:29
that the Israelis are facing uh uh really a moment of truth in
13:35
the whole history of the state I’ll come back to it in a minute I just want to say that because of that the only
13:41
solution that the current Israeli politicians who run the country see I’m
13:47
not saying they’re not aware of it but they believe they have a wind of opportunity to prevent it and the only
13:52
way to prevent it is a total Destruction of the Palestinians not just as people
13:58
but as an idea as a concept this is why they’re attacking Andra and this is why they’re
14:05
working now in Syria and other places to to kind of create a region an Arab world
14:12
that has put the Palestine issue behind it and and uh I don’t think they will succeed by the way but I do believe that
14:18
they can you know wreak a lot of havoc and and and connage uh before the
14:24
failure would would become clear I mean that’s what I’m to ask you about of course that that very challenging
14:31
argument that actually this this could be the beginning of the end for that d project and a lot of people will go I
14:37
mean you know the Israeli State might just respond in a very Triumph way Gaza
14:43
wipes off the face of the Earth the West Bank I mean they’ve got away with the pogram there essentially uh Palestinian
14:49
existence there becoming ever more unbearable uh Southern Lebanon um
14:55
reduced large parts of it to Rubble Hezbollah smashed uh Iran hobbled um the obviously
15:04
now Assad regime even though in practice it’s um claims to be H you know actively
15:09
support the Palestinian people we not I mean we can talk about elsewhere but you know think they’re rable but nonetheless
15:15
you can look at that and go well actually things have gone yeah sure if you don’t like mass murder if you don’t
15:20
like war crimes boohoo whoo for you they might say but things are going pretty
15:25
well for us we’re smashing our own enemies we’re smashing our opponent and now we’ve got Donald Trump in the
15:30
White House and a load of pro Israel zealots things are looking pretty good for that project that’s what they would
15:36
say would you think yeah of course and there are two immediate points one can respond to one is there’s a huge number
15:42
of Israelis who don’t fancy living in a country that this is its H future this
15:48
is its Vision to be constantly using military force in order to exist and
15:54
military force that has to be more and more brutal and ruthless uh not only towards armies but also towards
16:01
population we don’t know the exact number of Israelis who left after 7th of
16:06
October some journalists in Israel put it around 700,000 other talk about half
16:12
a million it’s not only the numbers it is the the kind of characteristic of
16:18
that group that has left and it shows you that what they understand and this is not out of any particular solidarity
16:25
with the Palestinian suffering what they understand is that in order to survive
16:31
in the state for them their children and their grandchildren Israel would always
16:36
have to have this upper hand in in military in security means now for a
16:42
normal person they would like some you know stability in life some some peace
16:49
in one’s own normal life this is not the place to be in undoubtedly even if yes
16:56
the last four weeks were successful from military point of view will the next
17:01
four weeks be successful uh would uh would it happen again and it will happen
17:07
again of course that there will be another Palestinian Uprising there will be another seventh of October that’s
17:12
very clear uh and and uh things can change in the Arab world but that means
17:17
your only future is all the time in in making sure that your military budget is
17:24
the most important element in your in your States bud you know even
17:30
economically not to mention psychologically and mentally so so that’s one point the point that uh this
17:37
is not a vision that is shared by a large number of Israelis I mean some of
17:42
them would say there’s no other choice unfortunately because they can’t see any options but uh those who can afford it
17:51
uh economically and because they have uh dual nationalities and so on and reignite their professions elsewhere uh
17:58
are already leaving so so there’s something very Hollow here there’s kind of a social implosion from the inside
18:04
there’s a domestic price to be paid for this supposedly invinci the the re the
18:11
the Resurgence of the idea of the invincibility of the Israeli Army which I’m still doubting I mean they defeated
18:19
two Guerilla movements in the end of the day that’s what they did Guerilla movements who had no Air Force had no
18:26
tanks uh and so on so so to put it in perspective it’s quite important uh as
18:32
well but the second point is also ve ve very important uh this kind of um uh
18:39
Vision uh from an economic point of view uh uh would need a very strong Global
18:47
Alliance led by the United States that would not only support Israel diplomatically and politically but
18:55
materially uh we already know the expenditure that this success has
19:00
produced beyond anything Israel has ever spent on on on Military uh issues and
19:08
and you think about even someone like Donald Trump uh and any other isolationist politician that would come
19:15
from the Republican party or the Democratic party I wonder whether in
19:20
five six seven years they would regard Israel as such an asset when they will have to pay for all of this because the
19:27
Israelis don’t have that many resources to pay for themselves so so there are there are these kinds of immediate
19:34
responses but there’s something more profound going on here unless you believe that the world
19:41
cannot change then yes maybe it’s too too early to say it’s a beginning of the
19:46
end but if you have even you know a modum of belief that the political
19:51
system we liveing whether it’s in Britain or in Israel or in the United States or uh in in tury it doesn’t
19:59
matter uh whether you but if you even have a modum of belief that the the
20:05
current political situation or constellation is not forever you don’t
20:10
take a determinist view and you think about more positive alternatives to the
20:15
existing political system any positive ex alternative even a slight move
20:22
towards such an alternative model will bring the end of the zanis project
20:30
closer uh uh because the way you can sustain Israel is only in a world that
20:36
is ruled by populist leaders uh right-wing Neo fascist parties dict
20:43
dictators in the Arab world uh a democratic Arab world a more democratic
20:48
and liberal even uh West and Global South uh would not tolerate the kind of
20:55
state that Israel has become I mean I don’t tell part about you know the illusion of every age is
21:01
that it will last forever and I agree with you but I guess you know in the here and
21:07
now one might look at the position Israel’s in uh I mean you say you know for
21:12
example the idea you know a 7th another October 7th Could Happen um but I mean
21:19
you know some like go well there was only one seventh of October that ever happened in the history of Israel and that was because the Israeli military
21:27
you know they saw Gaza a sealed tomb from which nobody would ever emerge anyway um and they didn’t have their
21:33
military in place to prevent what happened including of course the killing of Israeli civilians but that that they
21:38
wouldn’t make that mistake ever again I mean what you say you know they can just basically insulate Israel from anything
21:45
um and you know if there’s any attack on them they just wipe out Southern
21:50
Lebanon you know there were surprised when the first antifa broke out they were surprised when the second one broke
21:57
out uh uh they Israel needs to employ I
22:03
don’t know if any other country maybe some like North Korea is a good example for that Israel needs to employ I think
22:09
even North Korea is not as bad in that in that respect Israel needs to employ
22:14
hundreds of thousands of its own people to police the Palestinians so that the
22:21
Palestinians would reconcile with living in mega prisons such as West Bank or in
22:27
a ghetto like Gaza or an aparted state which is experienced by the Palestinian citizens of Israel
22:35
how long can they really do this I I mean how how much is it really a secure
22:42
policy for the future if you have millions of people now reaching a number
22:47
that is equal to your own citizens uh who are uh not willing to go
22:53
away are resisting are resilient and are not going to give up
22:59
not to mention the millions of the same people and Nation who are on Israel borders and and the fact that so many
23:07
people in the Civil Society in the Arab world and the Muslim World support them I mean you have to take into account
23:13
this constellation uh yes admittedly I you know to simplify it we can say there’s a
23:20
global Israel and Global Palestine so yes right now global Israel which is made of Israel supporters mostly
23:27
populist uh leaders right-wing governments uh maybe even industrial
23:34
military complexes and Multinational Corporation fine very very powerful
23:40
Alliance I don’t doubt it but there’s a global Palestine the one that is supported by
23:47
so many people in civil societies which the global South look at the position of some of the Latin American countries
23:54
look at the changes in some countries like like Estonia and so on this is an
24:00
incremental process of isolating Israel of turning it into a rogue State I know
24:05
people are very um unhappy in Palestine about the icj and the IC and I can see
24:12
why because it was the their rulings have not translated yet into an effective action but I think is a very
24:19
fundamental change in the way the world re relates to Israel and Palestine the ICC and icj are not just an organic part
24:27
of the Civil Society that kind of the medium medium between the Civil Society
24:32
and uh the corridors of power and and I think that that is very significant in the long run so you know we can add to
24:40
this the the attitude of the young Jewish generation including in the United States so many Jews do not want
24:46
to be associated with Israel now we we can all say that doesn’t matter they don’t have brigades they don’t have
24:52
political power they don’t have a clout clout in the Congress and so on but this
24:58
is a still picture what we’re talking about we’re not talking the video here the video is shows the changes very slow
25:07
too slow for the people of Gaza and I’m afraid maybe even too slow for the people of the West Bank if we are right
25:14
in our apprehension that Israel would move with the same model to the West Bank I fully agree but in the long run I
25:21
see this as this ruthless Israel as burying its own home uh in terms of of
25:28
international standing legitimacy uh and and they you can buy
25:34
the Arab regimes but you cannot by the Arab people and and and Israel is still a minority in the Arab world I mean
25:41
Israel is not part of Europe it it wants to be maybe part of Europe but it is in the heart of the Arab world and the
25:47
Muslim world that since the 20 2011 is undergoing its own Revolution There Is
25:52
Now counter Revolution but this is not over and this whole project does not fit
26:00
the aspiration of people in this part of the world and other parts of the world for a different world and and if you are
26:07
in that situation only force and more force would sustain you I wonder
26:15
historical experience whether this is a long-term business well I suppose yeah with with that cap on the historical
26:22
context Capon in terms of looking as you know a guide using that as the guide for the future because that point you made
26:27
about I mean essentially Israel’s position is the Palestinian population represent an existential problem and
26:33
they work backwards from that um which is why you talk about an idea I mean that’s why you often have cheerleaders
26:40
for the Israeli State say there’s no such thing as the Palestinians I mean that’s been a perennial claim because they their fear is this the very
26:45
identity the sense of identity that Palestinians have posed as an existential threat to the Israeli
26:51
project and as you know the attack on unra the um the refugee Agency for Palestinians is they hate that because
26:57
it’s this it sustains the idea that Palestinians are refugees who’d be kick from those but couldn’t they just
27:03
thought you know when when when smotrich um uh you know the Israeli Finance
27:08
Minister talks about thinning out gaza’s population by half in two years under Trump my point is could they
27:15
just not do that they could just gradually people through death through um what they call voluntary migration
27:21
you make guards are uninhabitable obviously which they have and then you just under humanitarian guards you just
27:27
start EX exporting the population maybe do a deal with CC in Egypt of some description he’s a western back dictator
27:33
uh in the West Bank just gradually again exfix Palestinian existence so people just leave do you see what I mean I mean
27:40
couldn’t they just get away with just getting rid of the Palestinian population from Gaza and the West Bank
27:46
over a period of time they could get away in the short run but they cannot get away in the longrun uh you know I
27:54
don’t want to mention names but there were other regimes in history that two or three years after they came into
28:00
Power the world seemed to be unable to stop them from any plans whether it was
28:06
occupying other nations whether it was genociding them and so on and it seemed like nobody would ever be able to stop
28:13
them 5 six L years later they were stopped eventually so yes I mean they
28:19
could do all these things and unfortunately they want to do all these things and of course I’m not just an
28:26
historian I’m also an activist so I I I’m not just an onlooker and and and an
28:31
analyst I’m also part of of a movement that would do all they can to stop it
28:37
but uh beyond that let’s say that we unfortunately are not that powerful right now to stop it which is which is a
28:44
unfortunate possibility nonetheless the success of that is to me from an
28:51
historical perspective another uh uh factor that would bring it down
28:58
uh I I think that you have to look at the U more liberal forces that were part
29:04
of this Global Israeli Alliance what they benefited from was the kind of
29:10
double talk that you referred to before that the Israelis were were kind of conveying you know we are actually the
29:17
only democracy in the Middle East we we are part of the Social Democratic World in fact even more than just the the
29:24
Democratic world yes we have enemies we have problems but all in all uh this is
29:30
our aspiration is for peace and so on this discourse has disappeared from the Israeli political scene so um I think it
29:38
would be more and more difficult uh for the politicians in the west that are not
29:44
populist that are not part of the fascist Neo right uh to continue and do
29:49
it they still do it there’s a strong Lobby there is still fear and timidity
29:55
uh because politicians especially of this generation are thinking of the next election and not of any moral values but
30:02
here and there we can see the signs that the lobby was successfully destroying
30:08
but it will be these signs will increase like someone like Corbin Someone Like
30:13
Bernie sunders I mean these are not going to be exceptions of the rule that
30:19
are going disappear we won’t hear about them again this are just you know Trail braises this is going to change and and
30:27
um we therefore I’m I I’m looking I wish I had
30:32
the formula uh how to narrow the gap between the very slow process that I
30:38
think is positive as far as the Palestinians is concerned regionally and globally and the very quick process of
30:45
Destruction on the ground and and yeah and how to how to how to narrow the Gap
30:51
is is our our biggest Mission this uh in this lifetime for sure because you’re
30:56
absolutely right in the way you analyze the Israeli intentions and possibilities under Trump in by way not only under
31:04
Trump but don’t just give it to course yeah yeah you’re right there other other political forces in the globe that help
31:13
it but the pans are not alone that is important these these Global forces are
31:19
not only representing you know C lunch for Israel to do what he want they also
31:25
represent injustices in many other Fields including in their own countries
31:30
so so there is there is a potential for much stronger alliance with pistan just epitomizes it but it’s not
31:38
alone because you alluded to that you know the the Israeli propaganda kind of presentation of the only democracy in
31:45
the Middle East and you know I interviewed offer CIF uh who is a very courageous Jewish Israeli politician in
31:50
hadash of course I know you’ve you’ve been involved in you’ve stood um for election under the hadash banner they’re
31:56
the leftist Alliance of Jewish and Arab citiz Palestinian citizens of of Israel
32:02
but I mean I want to put F this point I mean in terms of where Israel is heading and see what you think about this because he was talking about fascism he
32:08
just talked about you know fascism he fears for his life he says you know he talks about um the possibility of having
32:14
to flee Israel that’s what he talked about with me but I I wonder in terms of this kind of if this is almost what
32:21
you’re alluding to and see if this analogy works at all because in climate science there’s this idea of a hot House
32:26
Effect where temperature rises get to a point where it becomes it becomes
32:31
exponential um there’s a theory that’s what what happened to Venus Venus is this hot house where it’s you know
32:37
impossibly hot the atmosphere is so thick now I’m wondering if that’s the process the analogist process with with
32:44
Israeli state that you get this process of radicalization where you know it gets more and more this the internal Dynamic
32:51
with nothing to stop it radicalizes and radicalizes and radicalizes it until it consumes the whole project and that it
32:58
collapses and becomes completely and utterly unsustainable I mean is that what it is is there a Hot House effect of fascist radicalization happening in
33:05
Israel at the moment yes and I and I I think it is and and uh uh you know like
33:11
offer I also fear for my life but I’m I’m 70 years old so I’m I’m going to stay where I want to stay um but um I I
33:20
would say that this is this is exactly what characterizes such a a fascist regime in
33:27
making or maybe is already there is offer claims that uh it everybody
33:33
becomes an enemy not just the Palestinians the secular Jews become the
33:38
enemy uh the the reformed Jews become become the enemy I mean they’re going to
33:44
swallow and consume everyone apart from those who they think are totally uh uh
33:51
uh supporting their Messianic Neo Zionist vision of a fascist Israel that
33:57
is feared by its neighbors and has put has expunged the whole Palestinian issue
34:03
out of history and out of geography uh and this is this is not going to work
34:09
this is not going to work because there is a limit to how far you can go
34:14
especially with the origins of this project that uh at least its Founders
34:20
believe that materially have material help is not enough that you need moral
34:25
legitimacy uh uh uh for for its existence now this moral legitimacy has been seriously eroded these particular
34:34
politicians and and and leaders do not think moral legitimacy International
34:39
moral legitimacy is important anymore uh that is true and that’s why they have no
34:44
inhibitions in what they’re going to do I’m not sure that this is the side Guist
34:50
that we live in that really you can totally ignore that kind of thing uh
34:56
after all the are other Rogue states in the world and it’s we we tend to forget
35:02
that some of these Rogue states do suffer from sanctions do suffer from isolation uh and and uh we we are not
35:11
sure that this is going to be something sustainable just because there is this
35:17
belief that you don’t care about the moral illegitimacy or because there are as we talked before this kind of
35:23
political movements and leaders in the world who who don’t care about moral validity
35:28
uh as well I I I do agree that they exist and they are probably uh preventing us from finishing this
35:35
project sooner rather than than later but in the end of the world I I you know
35:41
I I I do believe and and I feel connected to so many movements of change
35:47
in the world especially more the younger generation that I I refuse to accept
35:54
that the current situation is is fatalistic that you know there’s nothing
36:00
we can do now if we believe that we can do something then we can do something about Palestine as well this this this
36:06
is closely connected I mean if you want a better Britain uh in terms of your Universal
36:13
values your economic social cultural values if you believe that it could be a
36:19
more just Britain and so on if you think the labor part is not really representing these values as much
36:25
as one hope hoped for then you should be also hopeful about Palestine the things are interconnected they’re very
36:32
interconnected sometimes it’s more complex but on the other hand it shows you that even if you Palestinians
36:40
understandably would feel totally alone and isolated they’re much less alone and isolated than maybe they can realize in
36:48
this terrible conditions in which they which they experience right now one thing I want I mean we will end
36:54
on Hope by the way I promise um it’s okay great so many of this conversation hate and
37:01
with the spair that I know exactly that that has happened a lot but I even managed I getting L the other week I
37:06
imaged him to say some hopeful things so maybe there is hope after that’s that’s unique because he he’s a he’s exactly
37:12
the pessimist obviously huge fan of his but it was it was it was it was heartening
37:19
to hear him talking hopeful terms before I do that I mean in terms of I I guess
37:24
you know genocidal further I’m not quite short genocide Mania I’ve often described it I’m interested in this in a
37:30
historical context and how many precedents there are for it there were very many I mean there were c i I
37:36
interviewed so many courageous Jewish Israeli figures on this channel and we’ll keep doing so that you’re
37:42
courageous because you’re at present isolated and the polling is Bleak if I’m honest I mean you know some polls show
37:50
about half you know there’s a 50-50 split amongst Jewish is radies between those who think enough Firepower has
37:56
been used in Gaza and the other half thinking not enough has been used um about 60% consistently opposing all
38:02
humanitarian Aid being allowed into Gaza which would mean everybody dying in in brutal terms um what I’m interested in
38:10
is I guess the ingredients here because I often think about Serb nationalism in Bosnia as one parallel because serbs
38:18
were victims in the war they were they’re victims of of genocide um the stachi the Croatian collaborators I mean
38:25
the Nazis thought they were do it extreme in some ways um and they also suffered atrocities in the Bosnian war
38:32
and they fused that sense of victimhood which had a basis it wasn’t fictional with a sense of superiority as well that
38:38
they were superior to the bosniacs for example now I I mean in this situation you have that you know because Jewish
38:44
people have been for 2,000 years persecuted culminating within living memory of course with the shower the
38:50
extermination of 6 million Jews 2ir of Europe’s population in a very short space of time um so that victim is real
38:57
um and then you have um uh the settler colonialism and the mentality settler
39:03
colonialism generates in all different many different contexts um you have um
39:09
uh as well you have um impunity I suppose which is an extra maybe a
39:15
different the Bosnian serbs didn’t have impunity did they actually they you know I mean there was there was military
39:20
intervention is that what do you think I mean I’m just interested in how is are those the kind of unique ingredients
39:26
which have inspired uh to create the grounds for what are you know because only 2% of any
39:33
society of sociopath it’s not like most people have this power of empathy which is eliminated by dehumanization and that
39:41
dehumanization of the Palestinians is extremely widespread I’m wondering is it how unprecedented is that what we’re
39:47
looking at in Israel um and is it actually do you think it’s impunity added in to those different other
39:52
ingredients which you have seen in other societies I think that
39:58
the phenomenon itself of dehumanization in Israel is not unique no I mean it’s
40:03
an extreme example because it is kind of a double dose of
40:09
dehumanization it’s a fusion of romantic nationalism which is always a a variet
40:14
of nationalism that totally dehumanizes anyone who does not belong to the nation
40:19
ever since this kind of brand of nationalism emerg in Europe in the mid 19th century together with settler
40:25
colonialism which of course dehumanizes from the very beginning of its encounter for with any indigenous native
40:32
population the native population is part of its wish to displace and replace uh
40:38
the local people so you have kind of a double dose here if you want of dehumanization I think what is unique is
40:44
not so much the dehumanization itself and which is reflected as you rightly
40:49
said in the polls of support for the war or even the uh wish to stop the war not
40:55
because it is a deuman humanized War but because they believe it might lead to
41:00
the release of the the hostages or they don’t want to see many more soldiers
41:05
killed or whatever but but the main motive is is not the suffering of of the Palestinians here I think what is unique
41:12
and I cannot find an example and and actually it comes out in your attempt to
41:18
to compare it to Bosnia is the uh International exceptionalism that de
41:24
humanization um you know you hear philosophers of morality especially in
41:30
places like France the United States and Germany people who I’ve known for years
41:35
and I really respected their writing their their contribution to
41:41
articulating what is humanity what is morality and so on and they forget their
41:48
own value system their own preachings when they talk about Israel it’s quite
41:54
remarkable it’s like they become total idiots when they talk about Israel in Palestine as if anything they themselves
42:00
has WR have written about preached about is not relevant to the case of of Israel
42:06
as if they fear they fear to say the word Jewish racism for instance in this
42:12
uh connection and and I think that kind of immunity uh for the dehumanization is
42:20
unique it’s very unique and of course it contributes to the dehumanization itself
42:26
because if you are not them for you dehumanizing uh the Palestinians there’s
42:32
very little incentive to stop it uh and I think that was a great shock for the Israelis what happened in the icj and
42:39
the IC and still if you read the Israeli analysis of the icj and the IC they say
42:47
this is nothing new this is part of this anti- new anti-Semitism which luckily we have
42:54
powerful friends uh from the United states to Britain and other places that
42:59
would make sure that this is an insignificant uh uh uh development and
43:04
of course when the United States threatens the IC in particular after it
43:10
issued the arrest warrant for Netanyahu they feel you know that this is
43:15
validated in in in their approach so the dehumanization itself was there uh may
43:22
be hidden because of this International exceptionalism uh but those of of us who
43:27
who were born here like myself who were part of the educational system here uh
43:32
we always aware of it that this is the way uh you know every generation of
43:37
Israeli graduates from the low from the mainstream school
43:42
system can only have this kind of perspective on Palestinians totally
43:48
dehumanization and and and and when it goes when these young people go through
43:53
the Army it is it increases even because you have you have the power to translate
44:00
dehumanization into actual killing uh and elimination actual elimination and
44:05
that’s what we have seen not only in Gaza we keep forgetting how many young people and children and women were
44:12
killed by the Israelis in the West Bank how many of them were killed during the NBA and so on so it has been there for
44:19
76 years uh uh it just became more extreme and yet again the most important
44:26
part of it is the uh Western attitude towards it rather than the essence of it let’s talk
44:34
about Hope and you you you talked before actually about what we could almost
44:39
describe is a great Divergence going on in the global Jewish Community because
44:45
there are as many Jewish people in the United States or around as there are in
44:50
Israel I mean they’ve got almost the same Jewish population obviously it’s it’s just it’s not concentrated way in
44:55
the is already but but what I mean um and you you alluded to this in the polling uh the polling six months ago
45:03
found 30% of Jewish Americans think is genocide and it found 40% of Jewish
45:10
Americans under the age of 45 thought that Israel was committing genocide and
45:15
the even you know polling with even younger Jewish Americans also finds even more damning results we’ve seen Jewish
45:22
Americans at the Forefront of solidarity movements with Palestine I mean do you think that’s I mean it’s interesting
45:28
isn’t it because what’s happened I mean traditionally Jewish Americans have always been a very relatively Progressive demographic I’m not saying
45:34
the Democrats are obviously leftwing party but they’ve consistently rejected the Republicans uh in every election um
45:40
after World War II there was the uh leftist candidate they were the most likely then again to support that
45:46
particular candidate so there’s always been this Jewish Progressive tradition in the United States which has always existed but do you think this is
45:51
significant in that you know because obviously amongst younger younger Jewish Americans they’re having a different
45:57
perspective because often old America Jewish Americans kind of had this Progressive view of the of Israel don’t
46:04
they they they still hark back to that idea do I mean is that do you think that’s a potential existential threat
46:10
because I think Gideon Levy for example when I speak to him the hope he often thinks is that something’s got to give
46:15
American public opinion shifting but notably Jewish American public opinion is Shifting and that’s what matters yeah
46:22
I think it’s you know I look at this whole uh process of what I call the beginning beginning of the end as a
46:28
process that has uh as discrete processes that some of them have not not
46:34
much in Comon but one day I think we’ll fuse into a very powerful transformative
46:40
event and I I talk about these processes like cracks extensive cracks in the foundation of a building uh and and one
46:47
of these extensive cracks is what you have just describe about the Jewish Community it’s not the only one I don’t
46:53
think you can bring down uh a set iial project but just one of these processes
46:59
these processes have to to to meet together in one historical has happened in South Africa uh in one historical
47:05
moment that some of the circumstances of that moment have nothing to do with your activism sometimes things happen that
47:12
seemed unrelated and happen so that’s just in general but yeah more focused indeed it is very important and I would
47:19
say something to these uh PS and statistics I think sometimes there hides
47:24
an important fact not not by intention but because the nature of this profession when you have these high
47:31
numbers you have to understand that this is not just 40% and 30% most people who
47:37
are American Jews do not deal with political issues the public domain it
47:44
means that if you had an ability to find out what is the percentage among Jews
47:50
who are willing not just to take care of their own life who really think that there is some bigger causes than their
47:56
own life for which they’re willing to be a a part of are willing even to to
48:01
sacrifice a career uh uh connection with the family in the community want to be
48:08
active in it I think the percentage is far higher I mean if you take it who whoever is willing to be an activist
48:14
under the age of 45 among the American Jews I you know 50 definitely 30 years
48:21
ago the vast majority would do it on behalf of Israel today the vast majority
48:27
of them would do it on behalf of Palestine and that’s a fundamental change and some of these people might be
48:33
the Senators and their representatives or the mainstream journalist of the future we don’t know
48:39
we don’t know what happens to them when they come when they enjoy the corridors of power uh but but there is a big
48:46
potential here but but but as I said by itself this is not enough I think the
48:52
the isolation in the in the community the internal explosion of Israel from
48:58
within economically and socially I’m still not convinced about the invincibility of the Israeli armies
49:04
everybody is now and I have I’m I’m not sure that we have seen the end of the
49:10
Revolutionary forces in the Arab world and all of that together with a
49:15
possibility of a new generation of Palestinians who would lead a the
49:21
Palestinian Liberation movement in a more unified a more representative a
49:26
more Dem ratic way which is a very there’s a good possibility for that happening as well if you look at the
49:32
younger generation all this together I think means that this dark moment
49:39
Palestinians may find it difficult to believe but I think they are as I said in the beginning of our conversation
49:45
they are at the end of the worst chapter in their history that began in
49:51
1948 and I think we are reaching the beginning of a better chapter but uh we
49:57
are not there yet undoubtedly we’re not there yet but and we are all not on Lookers on that we can each individually
50:04
and collectively contribute to to that new chapter beginning sooner rather than
50:09
later my final question actually it’s linked to that and it’s it could be hopeful or despairing I suppose
50:16
depending how you look at it is that for me you know you know it was actually said by um the US service Personnel who
50:24
um self imil early early this year oh yes um Aaron um bushel and he said many
50:33
of us like to ask ourselves what would I do if I was alive during slavery or the gym Pro south or apartheid what would I
50:39
do if my country was commit genocide the answer is you’re doing it right now and you know for me part of me
50:45
thinks well look this crime is so obscene so depraved just you know so
50:50
confessed to so evidenced that you know I’ve never lived through something
50:57
talking about the complicity of the West because obviously lots of other crimes have happened in my life but they’ve been accepted as crimes you know I mean
51:04
you know Rwanda is accepted as you know it’s not the same but to go through where Western fingerprints are all over
51:09
it it’s so obvious to me that surely this has to go down in history is just a great one of the great crimes of our age
51:17
um and I’m you know but then I think well that’s either either we’re going to
51:22
have that and if we don’t it’s because we’re you know the the future of the West is fascist barbarism and in which
51:29
we got bigger things as well I’m afraid to worry about and I’m just wondering what you think about that you know because part of me thinks you know this
51:36
could just be a foreshadow actually I mean some people worry about that you know and that’s why the far right look at Israel actually is as something to
51:43
his spy they see it as the front line of Western Civilization against the uh you know the Muslim hordes and barbarians
51:50
you see the exporting of Technology by the way elsewhere and the rise of very rightwing authorit movies I just what
51:56
you think about that in terms of where we’re heading because you know it seems so obvious that this I mean from a historical perspective you kind of think
52:02
well obviously history has to record it for what it is but what what what’s your sense of what you know that’s an
52:08
open-ended question interpret As You Wish yeah yeah I I think there are two aspects like I can kind of respond to
52:14
one would think think about Bushell and and and people like himself I think what was very characteristic of of him was
52:21
that he did not get his information what was going on in Palestine from the the main American Media that he he uh needed
52:30
the alternative media uh as a source of information that helped him to form the
52:35
very uh desperate but courageous moral position which which is is an important
52:41
aspect to think about it the the role of the alternative media and the lack of confidence and you have just written a
52:47
brilliant article on this on the BBC uh there is a a a a great crisis of
52:54
confidence in the mainstream media uh in the west which I think we still not
53:00
appreciating how it will play out in the future but it will play out in the future when people would say we don’t
53:07
trust them on Palestine then we don’t trust them also on other issues and and and that is something very important
53:14
that of course can be can can play a very positive role in it as for the the
53:20
the right-wing part of what I call the global Israel Alliance or the alliance of of maintaining the political systems
53:27
as they are today I don’t know from an historical perspective the right was
53:33
always strong when the left was unable to unite the right by itself I don’t
53:38
think is that strong as people put it uh uh it is always strong when the left is
53:45
uh not talking in a clear voice uh forgets its own Universal values and it
53:53
and tends to be purist and forget the about pragmatism in order to create
53:59
powerful alliances look CA Harris was an example of the first one not very clear
54:05
what is the alternative and so on she had no chance against a
54:10
populist leader I think Bernie suers would have done much better than CA Harris in in in America uh secondly look
54:19
at the second round of the French elections what happened when when uh you
54:25
know the left have put a aside uh unfortunately for not too long but I put
54:30
aside its descent and defeated the the extreme right in France I think this is
54:37
the lesson for us all that uh when we are dealing with existential issues and
54:43
and the issue in Palestine is existential and as I say I don’t think it’s just existential for the
54:48
Palestinians existential for many other people we need to be able to create the
54:54
alliances that by the way I so in the demonstration in London when I joined
55:00
another 1 million people you have the Muslim Community you had the left you had the Liberals all United under this
55:07
one issue and of course they have they have their own disagreements on some uh issues which I don’t underrate and don’t
55:15
uh regard as unimportant but they knew the demonstration was a manifestation of
55:22
what is important and what is less important right now and and I think that that kind of alliances that work so well
55:30
in the solidarity movement in the streets should now be part of the action
55:36
uh in politics from above as well in order to be able to to deal with
55:41
this because with these kinds of Alliance you will find out and that’s my
55:47
assessment that populism Fascism and right extreme right-wing politics are
55:53
not as attractive as we believe it is because they they just enter a void that
56:00
someone else can still F so I think there’s a lot of thinking to be done about how do we deal with the essence of
56:07
politics and what is the new role of the left in turning the struggle against the
56:13
essence of politics into a more effective struggle that would have also
56:19
of course implication for the situation in Palestine have say surprisingly
56:25
heartening I was expecting that and but also full of nuance full of wisdom
56:30
obviously your encyclopedic knowledge of this whole area shines through as ever
56:36
and and it’s been such a such an honor I know you know I I can anticipate the responses we get people will be sort of
56:42
appreciative of what you have to say and provocative in the best possible way as well uh so for those who are watching
56:48
please do share this video press like press subscribe leave your comments good for the algorithm more people watch and engage and listen which is the point of
56:54
course and bit honestly such an honor and thanks thanks as ever for your incredibly thank you I I really enjoyed
57:01
this conversation thank you very much for having me
oooooo
Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:
We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NAT0, maybe being a BRICS partner…
Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka
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MMT: Modern Monetary Theory
Understanding how money works so that we can address climate change easily and prosperously plus address AI’s impact on humanity.
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