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Q&A with UN-Mandated Experts: Human Rights Violations in Gaza and the Occupied Palestinian Territory

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxoWjMyw8bQ)

On 11 December 2024, four independent experts appointed by the Human Rights Council spoke to the press on human rights violations in Gaza and across the occupied Palestinian territory. • Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 • Margaret Satterthwaite, Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers • Ben Saul, Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism • George Katrougalos, Special Rapporteur on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order

Special Rapporteurs, Independent Experts and Working Groups are part of what is known as the Special Procedures of the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN Human Rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms that address specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures’ experts work voluntarily; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent from any government or organization and serve in their individual capacity.

Transkripzioa:

0:02

good afternoon everyone and thank you for joining us at this press conference by four special procedes mandate holders

0:08

uh we have four speakers to get through today so let me introduce them very quickly and uh we can get started on the

0:14

podium uh we have the special reporter on the situation of human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories Miss

0:21

Franchesca albanes uh next to me is uh the special rapor on the independence of judges and lawyers Margaret

0:28

satwi um and we also have uh the special reporter on counterterrorism and human

0:34

rights Professor Ben Saul and uh Mr George katos who is the independent

0:39

expert on International order uh they will brief you today on the ongoing human rights violation in violations in

0:46

Gaza and uh across the occupied Palestinian territory we will begin with

0:52

opening remarks by Miss albanesi followed uh uh by the other speakers

0:57

thank you

1:03

you have the

1:09

floor sorry yes I you know one never gets used so good uh good afternoon

1:16

everyone um after 14 months I’m burned by having to yet again explain the

1:24

unbelievable amount of suffering and grief the Palestinians people the Palestinian people have endured in the

1:30

last year for crimes the member states have the clear responsibility of preventing stopping and punishing among

1:37

which is genocide today the situation on the ground is catastrophic the crisis in

1:43

Gaza has become a global crisis that concerns all of us and that is why I’m particularly humbled and honored today

1:50

to stand before you with colleagues who are legal experts in their own domain and whose analysis captures equally

1:56

critical aspect of the very of of this very deep uh

2:01

crisis um but let me start by putting the occupied Palestinian territory in

2:08

your mind again as it disappears from the from the news in Gaza more than

2:15

44,000 people have been a certain killed uh by Israeli snipers and bombs 70% of

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whom women and children from the beginning more than 100,000 in counting

2:28

are the wounded thousands are are unable to be treated let alone cured for the

2:33

most Bas basic diseases and if it was not enough they will now have to go through

2:39

the second winter living in makeshift camps without adequate food or clothing

2:46

the entire population of Gaza has been uprooted and often multiple times hundreds of thousands have lost their

2:52

homes forever children do not know if they will be able to get back to school in the past four months alone nearly

2:58

19,000 children have been hospitalized for acute malnutrition famine today is a

3:05

reality and this is all the more outrageous as we see humanitarian Aid being blocked in the West Bank including

3:12

his Jerusalem militarized Israeli Security operation setlement expansion evictions demolitions violence and

3:19

threats of annexation are inflicting further pain and Injustice on the Palestinians who are subject to an

3:26

unlawful and intensified shot to kill policy it’s nearly 800 that the

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Palestinians who have been killed and thousand injured uh this year amidst

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ongoing restriction on their movement and access to basic Services livelihood

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and farmlands what is the the how did we get

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here impunity this is the key word to understand the barbaric scale of the

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isra that Israeli genocide has taken since its birth Israel has never been held to the same standard as most of the

4:00

members of the International Community Israel has defied countless General

4:05

Assembly Security Council resolutions International court of justice advisory opinion and has targeted un personnel

4:12

and facilities and also declared the personas nrata not only me but the Secretary General himself without

4:18

everbearing consequences there are never sanctions on Israel judicial processes are either ignored or circumvented and

4:25

trade continues and diplomatic ties remain intact member states seem to be

4:31

to be paralyzed or struck many of them still normalizing the occupation the

4:36

repression of the Palestinian people depicting their resistance in the territory that Israel occupies as

4:42

terrorism or at best as a tantrum of an unruly population incapable of abiding

4:47

in silence to what the International Community has decided as its faith it is

4:53

uncons to me that many in the united for many in the United Nations Palestine

4:58

continues to represent an issue to be negotiated where the Palestinians have to accept sooner or later the status quo

5:05

their fight to self-determination reduced to a humanitarian crisis and accept quietly the L of the the loss of

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their land their failure to confront the imperialistic force of settler colonialism as a human rights expert and

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as a human being I have to stand against this and amidst all of this structural Injustice I want to conclude with three

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main messages to ensure Justice accountability first the halting of any

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direct or indirect arms transfer to Israel second the revision the revision

5:36

of Israel credentials to be part of the United Nations to show that impunity will no longer be tolerated in this

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situation if it wants to fulfill its mission to preserve the security and peace for all and third and last

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resolving once and for all the question of Palestine in line with international law means three things and the genocide

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now and the occupation by September next year because this is this is the deadline that the general assembly has

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given uh Israel to comply with International court of justice advisory opinion which has ordered this year that

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Israel dismantles the occupation the settlement and the control of natural

6:12

resources totally and unconditionally no exception this means realizing the right of starting to realize the right of

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self-determination of the Palestinian people um four we need to understand and

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embrace once and for all that this is not a conflict conflict as a ter is a misnomer here because there is a settler

6:32

Colonial framework at play when it we talk of Palestine and I’m not using this

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language as an ideological slogan but as a framework capable of accurately describing the reality in the occupied

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Palestinian territory that is becoming more and more catastrophic as uh as the time passes thank

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you and the will

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sorry sorry the next speaker will be the special rorer on the independence of judges and lawyers uh Miss Margaret sat

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uh special you have the floor thank you very much so I will be speaking briefly about um the issue of impunity and the

7:16

efforts that the International Community has been making to end that impunity and steps that must be taken now so 76 years

7:24

ago the UN General Assembly recognized the need for a permanent International Court to deal with atrocities of the

7:30

kind prosecuted during World War II the international criminal court is the

7:36

legacy of the nurenberg trials to never allow war crimes and crimes against humanity such as those committed during

7:43

World War II go unpunished and to ensure that Those who commit the gravest crimes

7:48

face Justice in a court of law the icc’s role is more crucial than ever on

7:54

November 21st the icc’s pre-trial chamber unanimously issued War war of arrest for Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr

8:02

yev Galant for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least

8:07

October 8th 2023 until at least ooc sorry May 20th 2024 which was the day

8:14

the prosecution filed the applications for arrest warrants it also unanimously

8:19

issued an warrant of arrest for Mr Muhammad diab Ibrahim Al MRI commonly known as Dave for alleged crimes against

8:26

humanity and war crimes committed on the territory of the state of Israel and the state of Palestine from at least the

8:32

date of 7 October 2023 of course while Dave is suspected to have been killed by Israeli forces

8:38

the court could not verify this I recall that these arrest warrants were issued by three judges of different

8:45

nationalities by an independent Court who found that there was a reasonable that there were reasonable grounds to

8:51

believe that the crimes had been committed based on evidence about conduct that meets the standards for war

8:57

crimes and crimes against humanity in their issuance the arrest warrants

9:02

reaffirm that all victims of the most grave crimes are human beings deserving

9:08

of accountability if every person is equal before the law these arrest warrants

9:14

demonstrate that the same is true for both victims and alleged perpetrators in line with their

9:20

obligations under the Rome statute I underline that member states should cooperate fully with the ICC in line

9:27

with article 86 of the Rome stat statute and just to talk about a few of the things that member states are obligated

9:33

to do Under the Rome statute first they must Aid in the identification and sharing of the whereabouts of persons or

9:39

the location of relevant items The Taking of evidence including testimony under oath and the production of

9:46

evidence including expert opinions and reports necessary to the court the service of documents including judicial

9:53

documents the facilitation of the voluntary appearance of persons as Witnesses or experts before the court

9:59

the examination of places or sites including the examination of grave sites the execution of searches and seizures

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the provision of records and documents including official records and documents the protection of victims and Witnesses

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and the preservation of evidence and I highlight in particular that in accordance with procedures under

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national law state party States parties must comply with requests for arrest and

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surrender of persons sought by the court who are found on their territory I recall that the Rome Statute in

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article 27 makes clear that official capacity as head of state or government

10:36

shall in no case exempt a person from Criminal responsibility and that any

10:41

immunities or special rules arising under National or international law which may attach to the official

10:47

capacity of a person shall not bar the Court’s Jurisdiction the court is recently made

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plain that states parties have the obligation to arrest and surrender anyone sought by an ICC arrest warrant

10:59

even if such an individual is a head of state and regardless of whether the individual’s state of nationality is a

11:06

party to the Rome statute the court has clarified that no waiver of immunity is required in such circumstances under

11:12

article 98 of the statute even for heads of state since the arrest warrants were

11:18

issued dozens of states have affirmed their support for the court and their intent to comply with their legal

11:23

obligations under the Rome statute however I’m Gravely concerned that a

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number of states have reacted in exactly the opposite manner verbally attacking

11:35

the court its judges and the prosecutor at time in language that is entirely

11:41

inappropriate officials from one state labeled the court as anti-semitic an elected officials from

11:48

other another state characterized the court as a dangerous joke another called the IC a kangaroo court and disparaged

11:56

the prosecutors in terms I will not repeat some of these statements have included threats of sanctions against

12:02

Court officials and some have threatened even worse us officials in particular

12:08

have made threats of sanctions against the prosecutor and one US senator issued a threat to specific states that are

12:14

members of the ICC saying quote to any Ally Canada Britain Germany France if

12:20

you try to help the ICC we’re going to sanction you another US senator

12:26

threatened military action let me be very clear threats against the

12:32

IC promote a culture of impunity they make a mockery of the Decades long quest

12:39

to place law above force and atrocity and sanctions in particular are

12:44

shocking possibility if carried out they would appear to amount to offenses against the administration of justice

12:50

under article 70 of the Rome statute now that we have arrest warrants we know that any effort to

12:59

punish or impede or intimidate an official of the court or to retaliate against an official of the court on

13:05

account of Duties performed by That official amount to one of these crimes under article

13:11

70 but we shouldn’t in in ignore quieter

13:17

steps the budget of the office of the prosecutor was recently cut during the assembly of State parties what I figured

13:24

on the back of an envelope was around 10% from its proposed budget these Cuts

13:29

in strong contrast to the extremely supportive budgetary approach during the preparation of the Ukraine investigation

13:36

raises questions I call on all states to respect the Court’s Independence as a

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Judicial institution and to protect the independence and impartiality of those who work within the court impeding the

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work of the court and its prosecutor in particular is detrimental not only for

13:53

accountability in the occupied Palestinian territory but for international Justice as a whole

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we’re concerned to see countries that consider themselves champions of the rule of law taking actions to intimidate

14:05

an independent court and to thwart accountability these actions stand in

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stark contrast with other efforts as I’ve said and as parties to the Rome statute of the ICC States parties should

14:18

refrain from attacking or interfering with the Court’s Independence and should instead take affirmative steps to

14:23

protect the IC in the face of ongoing threats and intimidation ethical

14:29

behavior and attitudes on the part of state’s parties including in their public Communications are essential for

14:35

promoting the rule of law the protection of human rights and for ensuring public trust in systems of governance at the

14:42

international level to end it’s time to end the double standards International

14:48

Justice exists or it does not we can’t abide Justice for people from some

14:54

states and the protection of the law for some people with impunity for people from other States and an abandonment of

15:00

the resulting victims attacks on an independent on Independent judges and prosecutors of the highest level

15:06

Criminal Court created by the the International Community to punish the worst crimes are shocking and Beyond The

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Pale threats by some states against others that are aimed at coercing them into ignoring their international law

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commitments are outrageous states that Advance the rule of law and count themselves as among the

15:27

most law-abiding in the world must come off the sidelines to defend the court

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its judges its prosecutor and all of its Personnel thank

15:39

you thank you and uh next we’ll have the special reporter on counterterrorism and human rights uh Professor benol good

15:47

afternoon everybody I’m delighted to be here um my job is to uh encourage

15:53

governments to respect human rights while countering terrorism and I think one of the striking features of the last

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14 months is how Israel has used counterterrorism rhetoric uh to justify

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exceptional extreme violence against Palestinians accompanied by a chronic

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dehumanization of the Palestinian people which of course allows them uh to be

16:20

killed uh in large numbers uh uh at the political level and also through the

16:25

legal measures that Israel has taken um uh the International Community through international law the general assembly

16:32

Security Council have uh on many occasions repeated and insisted that all

16:37

countries must respect human rights and humanitarian law when countering terrorism without exception uh that’s

16:43

because human rights and humanitarian law already accommodate security concerns it’s a balance between uh

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protecting people uh and allowing militaries to fight so you don’t need to go outside that legal framework in order

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to effectively and successfully uh deal with uh an adversary in an armed

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conflict uh the problem here of course is that um uh Israel as our colleagues

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have already said has enjoyed impunity for many many decades which has

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emboldened it to become increasingly violent and increasingly Lawless uh and

17:20

this last campaign uh in in Gaza is unprecedented in the the history of uh

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Warfare in in recent years it’s not just that there have been extreme violations

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which have been well documented so we all uh over the past 14 months have seen deliberate attacks on civilians

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indiscriminate attacks disproportionate attacks starvation denial of humanitarian relief uh suppression of

17:45

Nos and un as terrorists uh a complete lack of credible uh accountability

17:53

through the Israeli military and civilian justice system uh that’s all pretty obvious and and and on the record

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what I find more shocking in in a way is that uh I’ve been working on humanitarian law for 25 years I’ve

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cooperated technically with the Israeli Defense Forces on many occasions in the past and I know they have excellent

18:14

lawyers very very good International humanitarian lawyers uh so when they unleash a campaign of violence like this

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they know what they’re doing uh and part of this story which I I don’t think has been explored quite so much uh is just

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how Israel has enabled this violence by taking very extreme exceptional

18:35

interpretations of international humanitarian law to to impose a kind of cloak of legality on what they’re doing

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so they’ve expanded the definition of what is a military objective they’ve uh

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expanded the category of people they call fighters who can be attacked uh

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they impose very large numbers uh on the civilian casualty counts that they tolerate in targeting they’ve used

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artificial intelligence to bypass the usual uh precautions that must be taken

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before launching attacks they’ve loosened the rules uh on authorizing Detention of militants uh uh removing

19:13

effective judicial control or access to lawyers for very uh protracted periods

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uh they’ve uh authorized controls on the distribution of humanitarian relief ostensibly on security grounds which are

19:26

are not tolerated uh by a proper inter interpretation of humanitarian law likewise authorizing uh displacement of

19:33

civilians uh in a manner which is outside the the mainstream and this is

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part of a historical pattern uh I mean it’s the same story if you go back on the way Israel has sought to legalize uh

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its settlements in the West Bank uh housing uh evictions uh uh exploitation

19:52

of Palestinian uh natural resources claims to to territory uh Etc and the

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problem of course is as we’ve all mentioned uh much of this has gone unchallenged by the states that matter

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and that can have a real influence to change uh Israel’s behavior on the ground um to to to wind up I I just

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mentioned that this is something which is uh expanding a kind of contagion that’s going uh well beyond the occupied

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Palestinian territories and in the past year many of us have uh commented publicly on the kind of lawlessness that

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Israel has also being uh been unleashing on its neighbors uh so uh if you think

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just in in recent days in Syria um uh destruction of the Syrian Air Force when

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there are no Pilots because Syria has no functioning government or military uh

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that can fly those planes at the moment um the uh attacks on uh uh uh the buffer

20:52

zone in the the Syrian uh Goen Heights we’ve seen in Lebanon uh indiscriminate attacks through the the pager explosions

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attacks on Hezbollah Banks calling them military objectives when they’re just financial institutions uh and again it

21:06

goes back to their exploitation of interpretations of uh humanitarian law

21:12

uh in Iran attacks on multiple occasions which are not in self-defense according to international law so of course all of

21:20

this is enormously destructive of the international legal order uh if

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lawlessness on this scale and of this extremity has no consequences then it

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sends a signal to everybody else that you can behave uh in the in the same way and the whole system begins to break

21:38

down it’s encouraging that a bunch of countries have sought to hold Israel to account and it’s a very strong legal

21:45

movement on on many many fronts But ultimately you need the states that matter to bring the pressure to bear on

21:52

Israel Germany and the United States Supply 99% of the weapons uh exported to

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Israel they could stop this conflict overnight if they stopped the weapons

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that kill the Palestinians thank you thank you special Rapter and next we

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will have the independent expert on International order Mr George kug Galos you have the

22:17

floor what is going to happen in Palestine in Lebanon in Syria is the

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ultimate lius test for the survival of the international legality of what we

22:30

call the United Nations system of rules it is true that multilateralism

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was under pressure even before we had important States withdrawing from

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agreements like the Paris agreement from important uh treaties of control of

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armaments but in the last period we have unprecedented

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attacks against the United Nations themselves prime minister

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Netanyahu and in no other place than in the general assembly spoke of the of the United

23:13

Nations as the house of Darkness as an anti-semite swamp and as

23:20

the Flat Earth Society this has been followed by the

23:26

Declaration of the general secretary personal of gr and of direct attacks

23:32

against peacekeeping missions the blue helmets of the United

23:38

Nations and of course we have the continuing humanitarian catastroph in

23:43

Gaza we have the recent attacks more than 350 a strikes in

23:53

Syria fortunately next to this flagrant violations of the international order we

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have some Ray of Hope some Rays of Hope regarding the end of impunity we have

24:07

the important decisions of the international court of justice regarding the illegality of the occupation by

24:15

Israel of all Palestinian territories after 1967 we had the important uh decision of

24:22

issuance of the warrant against prime minister and minister of defense of

24:29

Israel but again we are at Crossroads are we going to follow again

24:36

double standards in that the general prosecutor himself has

24:41

said that he has been approached by a high official who reminded him that uh

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uh his court the international criminal court it is not for Israel it has been

24:56

established for Africa and for thugs like Putin are we going to accept that we

25:03

have indeed two categories of state two different sets of international

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Norms we should not because that is going to be the end of anything we know

25:16

about the international law international legality there are some priorities now

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for the states first of all to comply with these important decisions to stop

25:27

sending arms to Israel to impose sanctions for the expansion of uh the

25:35

settlements and to stop any thought about annexation in the West Bank or in

25:43

Gaza moreover an immediate recognition of the State of Palestine as a first and

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very timid step to a diplomatic Solutions it is a moment of decisions

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for governments especially governments like the Europeans who which still claim

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that they are supporting a European Union of values principles and of law

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but it’s also a critical moment for all of us we have moral

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responsibilities and we must assume them many thanks for your

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attention thank you to all of the expert and they will now take questions and uh as usual we’ll begin with questions from

26:32

the room and then move to those of you online uh yes please go ahead please

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state your name and organization when you ask a question yes hi uh my name is an p and

26:44

I’m working for aan FR press uh should I ask the question in English or in French

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is in English better okay what with the English English Okay um so uh uh question uh

26:58

concerning what um um you have asked today you have asked many things uh but

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today at the same time there is the discussion at the general assembly on the resolution and I was wondering if

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you um what is your perspective on this resolution which is uh basically only

27:17

asking for a ceasefire um do you think that’s enough or uh do you think that

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the International Community should have put uh more uh expectations in this

27:28

resolution thank

27:36

you f if you you can answer and if others want

27:41

but yes I I disagree with you that we asked many things we ask one simple very simple thing all of us in unison the

27:48

compliance with international law it’s not charity it’s an obligation and um I will not comment on

27:56

a resolution that I’ve not read in its final form I just want to say that again

28:02

the path is clear it’s a moment of Crisis I agree with uh with many who see

28:09

the present and the future very Blick but as it happens on airplanes that are

28:15

about to I mean going through turbulence the lights on the floor are there and the lights the pa the enlightened path

28:22

is international law as I said end of the genocide col colit fire I’m fine say

28:29

fire now then end of the occupation by next year and then end of the apartheid

28:34

because this is the only way to ensure that Palestinians and Israelis will be able to live in Freedom dignity and

28:41

peace in the land comprised between the river and the Sea and there is a lot to do about that because it’s not just

28:47

Israel’s impunity and Israel’s violations of international law which are countless it’s the violations of

28:54

international law member states I mean I tend to blame the West because this is the part of the world I become I I I

29:00

belong to I come from and it’s the most influential but also the rest there are so many responsibilities so we need to

29:07

look also as a civil society to make sure that when I say justice starts at

29:14

home the responsibility of public uh and private actors is finally comes finally

29:20

under check

29:29

thank you Iman from Kuna I have just a simple question actually um the ICC decision

29:38

against Netanyahu and Gant H is just against two people so I know the Prime

29:44

Minister and the Minister of Justice but my question is have you like list or are

29:51

you preparing like a list of all the names that are responsible again against

29:57

the in this genocide not just officers in in Israel but also all this um person in

30:07

other countries but especially in Israel thank you so

30:12

much is the question for the special repor you

30:19

like I think it’s an important question because it just it allows me to say that of course these two arrest warrants are

30:25

only part of the story um as my colleagues have already said every state

30:30

around the world has the obligation to ensure uphold protect International humanitarian law and to end any genocide

30:38

and that means that they should be taking all affirmative steps to ensure that they’re preserving evidence

30:45

that they are um taking steps to cooperate with those bodies that are undertaking efforts to um bring people

30:52

to Justice and then they should be using whatever is available within their own legal system to take the steps they need

30:58

to hold people to account as well so I talk specifically about the ICC because I’m very concerned about the attacks by

31:06

different states on that body and because it has a very it has an important role to play in holding those

31:12

at the highest levels to account but of course anyone who’s engaged in crimes against humanity genocide and war crimes

31:19

should be held accountable for those crimes as

31:25

well um thank you very much Meg if I may chime in with an with a uh complimentary

31:31

information the system that the international criminal court is uh premised upon is based on

31:37

complimentarity therefore the role of national courts I keep on saying is so

31:42

relevant not only because um there are there are an I mean there is a universal

31:48

jurisdiction on crimes uh like genocide but also because to a to a large extent the

31:56

perpetrators are ALS Al Nationals of uh uh other countries and therefore they

32:02

should be held accountable under their National framework and I’m referring to Nationals who have been fighting in the

32:10

uh Israeli Army individuals who leave uh in the settlements and might have

32:16

committed violence against the Palestinians that are many who have double nationalities Western nationalities but also Arab

32:21

nationalities a number of them and there are uh um Western citizens who are

32:27

selling uh and purchasing property uh stolen from the Palestinians in the occupied

32:33

Palestinian territory I recently discovered that this is this happens in uh in in Canada and elsewhere in in in

32:40

the world and also there are businesses Charities Pension funds banks for this

32:46

you will have to wait for my next report because this is what I’m investigating but again it’s it’s an incredible realm

32:55

of untapped opportunities for justice

33:00

i’ just add that uh you know International Justice and foreign Universal jurisdiction war crimes cases

33:07

are of course absolutely critical but they’ll only ever prosecute a very very

33:13

small number of perpetrators that’s why uh Israel’s obligations under the Geneva

33:18

Convention to investigate and prosecute its own war criminals is one which is

33:23

absolutely essential to fulfill the problem being uh over many decades the Israeli military justice system has

33:31

proven in most cases utterly incapable of holding Israeli Nationals to account

33:38

when prosecutions are brought in rare cases they often end in very light

33:43

penalties relative to the severity of the of the crimes I mean ultimately what

33:49

is needed is a broad based Truth and Reconciliation and Justice process in

33:55

Palestine and for that you need the right political condition you need a change of of uh away from extreme

34:01

right-wing governments which Israel has uh been afflicted by in recent years

34:07

like we’ve seen uh positive examples in other countries I mean I think Colombia is a great example of a of a political

34:14

and social system that has moved past that really protracted violence uh over

34:19

many many decades and is seriously trying to bring both sides to account in a broad-based process which deals with

34:26

thousands of perpetrators not just the very senior leaders and I think uh we

34:32

should expect more uh uh on the Middle East we shouldn’t just expect that a couple of leaders might face face

34:38

Justice you know in theory because there’s an arrest warrant um we should demand that all victims uh receive the

34:45

accountability and reparation they’re entitled to uh through tracking down hunting down every person on either side

34:53

who has committed uh International crimes

34:58

thank you we’ll take this question and then go

35:13

[Music]

35:26

on

35:56

for for

36:56

peacekeepers for

37:52

n uh Nina and then we’ll move to questions online and come back to the room yeah uh thank you for taking my

37:58

question Nina Larson also AFP um so just to follow up on on that I was just

38:05

wondering if you’ve had conversations uh with people indicating that there is a movement towards wanting to to exclude

38:12

um Israel uh and remove their voting rights and then my other question was on Syria um I’m wondering um if you are

38:20

concerned that what’s happening in Syria right now is removing the focus um from

38:26

what’s going on in in Gaza or uh maybe it’s uh highlighting as you were

38:32

mentioning uh Israel’s actions uh more broadly given their their air strikes if you could just uh comment on that thank

38:40

you uh I will be brief on the on the first question but also I would like to invite my colleagues to comment on the

38:47

second part of your question um honestly I’ve uh I’ve had engagement with

38:54

regional groups and individual states on my recommendations I would say that most

39:00

of the discussions uh I’ve LED were on the need to impose sanctions on Israel

39:06

to stop the trade of uh of arms oil and

39:11

uh and goods and not just what is sold what is transferred directly indirectly

39:17

what is purchased from Israel because it’s incredible that there are member state that are still trading and buying

39:22

surveillance services and weapons that have been tested on the Palestinians so to honestly this has taken more of my uh

39:30

bilateral engagement when I was in New York and after the presentation of my report I’ve heard there are member

39:36

states from the global South picking up on that again the the fact of having

39:41

that on the table is to remind people of what complying with international law

39:46

means and what not complying with international law might imply because it seems that it’s really totally uh can be

39:53

neglected at at libitum as it pleases uh um May I leave the other colleagues

40:00

respond on the second part of the question yeah look uh briefly I’d say of

40:08

course States and the media have a pretty short attention span and can only deal with one crisis at a time it seems

40:15

I mean this was the complaint Ukraine made when Gaza happened that no one was talking about Ukraine anymore and then

40:22

uh now it’s you know maybe maybe Syria I mean I think uh Georgia is a former

40:27

foreign minister can also talk about uh what what states can do on more than one front at uh at once but you know we we

40:34

haven’t been talking about Sudan virtually at all for 14 months and it’s one of the worst conflicts on the on the

40:40

planet so I think uh governments and the media um should do more to to deal with

40:46

multiple crises which will always be the case uh at once certainly the United Nations does its best to do that but uh

40:53

often uh that’s not picked up in the in the media or or by stes

40:58

mhm what I’d like to add is that Syria is indeed part of a pattern as Ben has

41:06

said it is another case of the lessness

41:11

that Israel demonstrates in the area attacks without provocation against a

41:17

sovereign state but it is not just a part of what

41:23

Israel is doing in the area Syria is uh a case that interest above

41:32

all its own citizens who are involved in in a very very bloody Civil War for more

41:39

than 15 years now the situation is very

41:44

fluid many factors uh are present there it was not just a conflict between

41:53

various political religious ethnic uh groups within the country it is

42:01

another uh case of proxy war what is important now is uh to have

42:10

uh a full respect of the amnesty declared protection of minorities all

42:17

minorities but especially Christians and Alo and hoping that in the future we are

42:25

going to have an inclusive future for Syria including all uh the population

42:33

regardless of religious or ethnic divides it is not going to be an easy

42:40

task but who could provide who could foresee just 15 days ago the fall of the

42:47

assads regime of course a precondition for everything there it’s what all of us

42:54

have underscored the full respect ECT of international legality which is not just

43:00

the sovereignity of uh States this is of course one imperative

43:07

uh let’s say rule it is also the protection of human rights of everybody

43:12

and especially the

43:18

minorities um just one comment because again I um you might have heard my

43:24

disgruntlement at the work that corporate media have done in General on

43:30

Palestine and the Palestinians but I I would say also to the detriment of the

43:36

Israelis because the situation is not conducive for anyone uh but Western

43:42

media will have in particular to interrogate uh themselves on the the

43:47

role they have played in uh manufacturing consensus by obscuring

43:53

muting silencing certain realities and uh and uh supporting the I mean the

44:00

narrative that uh that came out around what is been labeled the the war again

44:07

between Hamas and and and Israel instead of talking of what has been going on

44:12

from the perspective of the victims so I mean again I I know that uh Palestine

44:18

might fall of the heart of politicians and the media but no it will this will

44:24

not stop the revolution that is mounting for justice that in I mean many young people see in Palestine the epitome of

44:31

so many injustices and I’m I’m sure this will not stop thank you uh we’re going to take a

44:38

question quickly online from Isabel Sako uh of fa

44:48

first Isabel oh yes now thank you thank you good

44:55

afternoon um for the Spanish news agency fa it has been said that if the United

45:02

States and Germany stop supplying weapons to Israel the the attack against

45:09

the Gaza population would stop immediately so my question is um in what

45:18

to what extent the political leaders of these countries I mean Germany and the

45:23

United States who has approved the EXP of these weapons can be also considered

45:30

Crim criminally responsible under international law thank

45:37

you thank you good question and uh look under international law every government

45:42

has an obligation not to export weapons to a country where there would be a clear risk that they would be used to

45:49

violate International humanitarian law uh so this is an obligation under the Geneva conventions the uh International

45:57

arms trade regulation regime it’s an obligation under the genocide convention in terms of the duty to prevent genocide

46:03

if there’s a a risk of that in the in the other country and it can also entail

46:08

criminal responsibility under international criminal law uh in certain circumstances so the thresholds a bit

46:14

higher than for uh the general rules on governments themselves uh but it uh it

46:20

absolutely can uh lead to criminal uh criminal responsibility I think part of

46:25

the problem links to what I said before that some of these states have themselves been interpreting

46:31

International humanitarian law in an extreme way so that they don’t see that what Israel is doing is unlawful I mean

46:38

the United States for example accepts that you can Target uh War sustaining

46:44

economic infrastructure things like banks that fund Hezbollah let’s say uh

46:49

and that’s an extreme interpretation I mean almost every other military on the planet does not accept that interpretation of uh international human

46:57

Arian law so partly the problem is a legal one on their side as well but there’s also I’m sure in some of these

47:04

cases government’s getting very good legal advice from very good uh government lawyers and then the

47:10

politicians are just not acting on that and there’s political decisions made to keep supporting Israel uh no matter what

47:18

right no matter how extreme the violence uh there is no red line really for for some of these uh countries and we know

47:25

the political reasons for that and in different countries Germany for the the very particular historical uh reasons uh

47:32

the us because of its long political alliance with uh with with Israel for

47:37

better or or or worse but it hasn’t brought Israel security so that kind of

47:44

uncritical friendship no matter how your friend behaves uh has been a disaster

47:49

for Israel it’s been a disaster for the Israeli people it’s been a disaster for security in the broader region uh and

47:56

for the the human rights of Palestinians as well uh and this is 70 years and

48:01

counting now okay please go

48:07

ahead my colleague has given all you need to know about the legal aspect of

48:13

your question I want to refer to another aspect I mentioned in my first

48:19

presentation that we have all of us a moral responsibility one of the ways that we

48:26

have to pressure upon governments to respect their legal obligations is by

48:33

demonstrating our willingness to defend human rights and be against

48:39

injustices this happened with the encampments with

48:45

massive demonstrations throughout uh Europe and also the United States it is

48:51

imperative that this kind of let’s say diplomacy of citizens is going to

48:57

continue it is not without impact the elections of the at the

49:02

United States have been partially uh influenced by that so

49:08

governments must uh have the message that what they are doing is not

49:16

without impact even regarding their own selfish interest of

49:24

survival thank you uh Nique uh first from the New York Times and

49:29

then we have quite a few questions still yeah thank you um actually Mr P Mr s’s

49:36

already partly spoken on this but uh you you mentioned that IDF has very very

49:42

good International lawyers who know what they’re doing what’s quite striking is that after 14 months of of intense

49:49

hostilities and very detailed research by human rights groups and others um uh

49:57

we have not seen um any change in the conduct of

50:02

hostilities by the IDF they they don’t seem to have amended any of their

50:07

tactics or approaches in the light of any of the criticism that has been leveled at the way they are conducting

50:12

hostilities and I’m wondering what your conclusion is about what that says about International humanitarian law and the

50:19

prospects of getting prosecutions on the conduct of hostilities in not just the conduct of

50:26

hostil hasn’t changed but we’ve also seen in the ICC warrants in the justifications that the UK have made on

50:34

changing the licenses for for weapons exports the focus has been on things

50:39

like um starvation denial of humanitarian Aid uh treatment of detainees it has not been on specific

50:46

conduct of hostilities so yeah back to where does that leave us in terms of whether or not we are not seeing extreme

50:55

interpretations actually being now quite normalized thank you yeah thank you I mean to give Israel

51:04

a little bit of credit I would say there were short moments in the last 14 years when usually in response to some us

51:11

pressure drawing of red lines there was a reduction for example in the number of

51:16

high explosive Munitions used in densely populated urban areas and and this would reduce casualties for a little while or

51:24

there’d be a little bit of opening of the tap of humanitarian relief to let you know a few more trucks in here and

51:31

there I mean the problem has been of course that uh the US has presented red lines to Israel Israel breaks them uh

51:38

repeatedly uh and there are no consequences from the US so you know Israel has has called the US’s Bluff it

51:44

knows it has Rock Solid political support in the US political system no matter what it does I mean whether it

51:51

tortures people in in military custody uh whether it obliterates most of the

51:56

public infrastructure and housing uh in Gaza kills over 40,000 people um

52:02

displaces you know everybody pretty much um it it can keep doing that right uh

52:08

and so uh unless uh the US who is the only one in the position uh to make

52:14

Israel really change things on the ground um it’ll keep it’ll keep doing it and and as I mentioned we’ve seen uh it

52:20

emboldened in the neighborhood as well in in a bunch of uh other countries on the conduct of hostilities yeah I think

52:27

the international criminal court absolutely picked the lwh hanging fruit because those are the easiest cases to

52:33

bring on starvation and and some of those um more obvious charges it’s

52:38

absolutely not the end of the story for the international criminal court and I can uh uh uh uh guess with uh with

52:46

confidence that in uh come you know in in future whether it’s near or far the

52:51

ICC is absolutely investigating conduct of hostilities cases they’re more

52:57

difficult to prove right because you have to know what was in the mind of the commander at the time that the strike

53:03

was launched because humanitarian law asks questions like uh what would be the

53:08

military advantage of launching a strike what would be the civilian casualties

53:13

anticipated and so unless you know what information they had and what information they failed to seek if they

53:19

needed more and better information uh then it’s not easy to draw conclusions about whether that absolutely is a

53:25

violation certainly to a criminal standard uh or not I mean when we’re talking about arms exports the the

53:30

standard is lower than a criminal standard that’s why you can you know more confidently make those judgments

53:36

that there have been these kinds of conduct of hostil hostilities violations but there’s absolutely evidence out

53:42

there I mean incriminating evidence by Israeli forces themselves recording themselves on on social media um uh

53:49

there are some uh leaks or informants from within the uh Israeli Defense Forces you can build up a pattern of

53:56

conduct over time on things like use of high explosive Munitions in in uh urban

54:02

areas where there are you know it’s very difficult to say that that would be consistent with humanitarian law um and

54:09

we’ve got you know lots of uh good investigative journalism as well which has been exposing some of uh some of

54:14

these violations so I think this story has a long way to run

54:20

yet just one thing to add which is that both of the Israeli um individuals were

54:26

char charged with directly um directly directing attacks against civilian population as civilian superiors to the

54:32

military commanders and I think it’s exactly the reason that my colleague has already said there are evidentiary

54:38

issues here and these are the the most straightforward charges for now um I do

54:44

imagine we will see charges more on the conduct of hostilities later uh may I um

54:52

concerning the Germany in particular but other States as well there is um the

54:59

international court of justice this year in the proceedings initiated by Nicaragua versus Germany has reminded

55:08

all states of their International obligation related relating to the transfer of arms to parties to armed

55:14

conflict in order to avoid the risk that such arms might be used to violate not just the genocide convention but also

55:21

the the Geneva conventions and it the court has also reminded that these

55:28

obligations are incumbent upon Germany as a state party to this convention in its supplies of arms to Israel so again

55:35

the there has been quite a a progression in significant progression in legal

55:42

developments uh and Justice in the case of Palestine the problem is as I often

55:47

said um international law is as strong and effective as the will of states to

55:54

abide it abide by it and this is this is not uh not the case um but I wanted to

56:01

make another comment uh on uh on the conduct of hostilities because I I mean having been

56:09

one of those uh investigating those conducts from from close but also from

56:16

afar looking at The Ensemble of the violations together looking at the Juris Prudence existing in the case of

56:23

genocide of course of course there are work crimes and crimes against humanity

56:28

that have been committed and frankly Palestinians have experienced war crimes and crimes against humanity for

56:35

decades and as the international court of justice says that in order to

56:40

determine genocidal intent one is to look at the conduct holistically my

56:45

colleague mentioned a number of elements like the repetition of the same pattern

56:51

I would like to refer all of you to the work to the incredible work that has been done not just by amnest

56:56

International or as as investigating several parts of

57:02

what has happened of the Israeli conduct but also uh forensic forensic architecture which has produced maps of

57:09

all the assaults and incidents that have transformed the land of Gaza into the

57:15

West Land that it is today which have the military assault that has

57:21

ungrounded largest weight of of Gaza and how Hospital School churches mosques

57:27

refugee camps and distribution of Aid and Medical Care have been decimated so

57:33

we have to look this is what I argue in my in my report my last report at the totality of the conduct against the

57:40

totality of the members of the group as such the Palestinians have been targeted as such and this is not my invention

57:46

this is in the words of the Israeli leaders and the soldiers who have been be who have become willful executioners

57:52

also would like to remind everyone that I mean in a war the the aim the

57:59

objective The Legal Objective what is acceptable in a war is the defeat of the

58:04

enemy when the objective is total Destruction and this has been and again it continues the fact that it continues

58:11

in the face of all these developments at the legal level the denunciation well it

58:16

shows that when the objective is destruction well probably the the conduct should be interrogated as a

58:22

genocidal one can I one point on um uh i’ I’d recommend the

58:30

commission of inquiry on Palestine as another good source of documentation of violations of conduct of hostilities

58:38

which is which is quite useful on Germany um you know in relation to Syria in the past Germany launched a

58:44

structural criminal justice investigation into patterns of war crimes crimes against humanity in that

58:50

in that situation and has proceeded to prosecute a bunch of people in relation to is violence in Syria this is

58:57

precisely the kind of mechanism that you could use to investigate the situation in Palestine and unfortunately Germany’s

59:04

been doing the opposite right I mean the German intelligence uh agency has listed the whole boycott divestment sanction

59:12

movement worldwide as an extremist organization and subjected it to uh

59:18

intelligence investigation and uh and surveillance um you know lots of Western

59:24

countries including my own I’m from Australia impose sanctions but only on their geopolitical adversaries you know

59:30

the the the easy targets like Iran or or Venezuela or Myanmar we never impose

59:36

sanctions on our friends and yet we say that sanctions are also uh tools to

59:42

enforce human rights and international law and against violations of of uh of

59:47

humanitarian law uh and it’s no wonder that vast parts of the world and the the global South feel like the international

59:54

justice system is dis credited because you’re just using it as a political tool of your own foreign policy you’re not

1:00:01

serious about uh applying the legal tools you have to enforce international law in an impartial independent uh

1:00:08

manner um and that of course has Ripple effects everywhere because people say well you know when you ask us to

1:00:15

sanction Russia on Ukraine why would we do that if you’re not doing that uh on Israel or other situations where your

1:00:22

your friends are are Lawless um under ational

1:00:28

law thank you yes we take the question in the room yes my name is sat I’m from Yim and

1:00:36

Japanese newspaper I want to follow up a question of what the the Israel forces

1:00:42

are doing in Syria after the the fall of the Assad regime Israel forces continue

1:00:49

continuing to attack the key military sides and destroy the remaining um

1:00:55

Syrian um army bases and their argument is that they want to make sure those weapons

1:01:02

will not fall into the hands that um that are opposed to the existence of

1:01:07

Israel so how do you defy the Israeli argument thank

1:01:13

you look you you there is absolutely no basis under international law to

1:01:19

preventively or preemptively disarm a country you don’t like I mean if that

1:01:24

were the case it would be arrest recipe for Global chaos because lots of countries have adversaries they would

1:01:30

like to see uh without without weapons um this is this is completely Lawless

1:01:36

that there is absolutely no basis uh in in international law to do it but it’s a

1:01:41

continuation of what Israel has been doing in Syria for at least a decade so many many hundreds of preventive attacks

1:01:48

have been launched by Israeli forces in Syria to destroy Hezbollah weapons dumps

1:01:55

stor facilities in circumstances where there is no armed attack from Hezbollah

1:02:00

on Israel from Syria and that would be the only circumstance in which you could use self-defense against Hezbollah in

1:02:06

Syria so it’s different from the situation in Lebanon because there is a a hot conflict there um but you can’t

1:02:12

just you know follow your enemy wherever they are in the world and bomb them in in some Third Country which is which has

1:02:17

been Israel’s approach um it’s also done it in of course in other ways and we’ve we’ve commented on this previously

1:02:23

through campaigns of assassin ations of adversaries in in third countries

1:02:29

including in quite a few number of cases of civilians I mean think of the uh

1:02:35

multiple assassinations of Iranian uh nuclear scientists um uh in uh over the

1:02:42

last 10 15 years these aren’t military targets even if it were a war you couldn’t kill them uh and yet uh that’s

1:02:49

what Israel has a a long history of doing to its adversaries

1:02:56

thank you uh we take have a question online from Kon of

1:03:03

LMO um good afternoon can you hear me yes we can

1:03:08

sorry okay thank you so um I was wondering if you aware of any

1:03:15

investigations already having place under Universal jurisdiction please

1:03:27

yes but I don’t feel comfortable on commenting on uh on that as of

1:03:37

yet any other questions any other questions uh from

1:03:43

the room or anybody online uh Maya uh from kyodo

1:03:49

news thank you very much do you hear me yes great fantastic thank you so I’m my

1:03:57

working for K news here at the P I just have as s Japan I just have a question regarding the number that you mentioned

1:04:03

earlier um I think I heard 95% of the of the the weapons um

1:04:11

provided to Israel are coming from Germany and can you just confirm the

1:04:17

percentage please thank you

1:04:29

uh we can we can check for you it’s it’s 90 something high high 90s but which

1:04:35

whether it’s 9789 we we need to check that for

1:04:42

you any other questions no if there are no other questions then

1:04:49

we will close this press conference uh many thank you thanks to our speakers for being here and for briefing you and

1:04:55

thank you for joining us uh and thank you for the interest in the work of the special repors

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkb8ppN-djI)

Palestinian ambassador to the UK Husam Zomlot was in front of the Foreign Affairs Committee on Tuesday to shed light on what is expected from the UK as Israel continues to massacre the Palestinian people

Transkripzioa:

0:00

Israel has been clear in word and action

0:02

that it has no intention of agreeing

0:04

asisa as of this morning Israel has been

0:07

clear over several decades of illegal

0:10

settlement expansion that it has also no

0:12

intention of reaching a political

0:14

outcome other than continued territorial

0:16

expansion and indefinite military

0:19

occupation there are four obvious ways

0:22

to pressure Israel and to change the

0:24

political status quo and here I also

0:26

mean the UK number one a comprehensive

0:29

arms embargo

0:31

number two sanctions number three

0:33

accountability and number four an

0:36

immediate former recognition of the

0:38

State of Palestine I suppose I ought to

0:40

start by asking a a general question

0:44

really which is because this is an

0:46

inquiry into what what could the British

0:48

government do more to be of assistance

0:51

to ensure that there is peace in the

0:54

Middle East and to have a lasting peace

0:56

and I wondered if you could give us your

0:58

thoughts on what practical measures the

1:00

UK could take to ensure a ceasefire in

1:03

Gaza but also to build a lasting peace

1:06

thank you very much right honorable

1:08

Emily Tom Bri and members of the Foreign

1:10

Affairs Select Committee for this very

1:13

timely uh event and convening uh this

1:17

conversation at such an acute moment and

1:20

in answering this question I would like

1:22

to speak with the utmost ergency we the

1:25

Palestinian people are facing an Israeli

1:27

attempt at total Erasure

1:30

physical political and legal not just in

1:33

Gaza and not only for the last 14 months

1:36

but for more than the entury of settler

1:39

colonialism this is happening in clear

1:41

and gross violations of all standards

1:44

and Norms of international law

1:47

international humanitarian law our shed

1:49

humanity and simple common

1:53

decency and the absence of any effective

1:56

intervention by the International

1:57

Community over the past 14 months will

1:59

leave future future Generations

2:04

asking where were we during this

2:08

genocide what did we do the

2:11

UK could be instrumental in bringing

2:14

this mass murder mass destruction to an

2:17

end Britain has a unique historical role

2:21

in and responsibility for

2:26

Palestine it remains an important and

2:28

influential

2:30

actor on the international

2:32

scene it is one of the founders of the

2:35

global rules-based

2:37

order it has deep and Lasting

2:40

connections to large parts of the world

2:42

including our

2:44

region and it is a uniquely placed

2:46

Western power closing enough right in

2:50

the middle with relations to the US very

2:53

special relations to the US and the

2:56

EU with the EU distracted and the the US

3:00

unpredictable as we speak the UK is one

3:03

of the few nations in the world in a

3:07

position to step forward to fill a

3:10

vacuum of Global Leadership at a

3:12

historic moment of Epic danger all over

3:17

the

3:17

world so honorable members the immediate

3:21

priority in Palestine remains securing a

3:24

lasting ceasefire that’s number one

3:27

number two number three priority for us

3:31

now an immediate permanent ceasefire in

3:35

line with the UN Security Council

3:37

resolution

3:38

2735 including an exchange of hostages a

3:41

full withdrawal of the Israeli Army and

3:43

a multi-year reconstruction plan for

3:47

Gaza this must be overseen by the state

3:51

of Palestine and our legitimate National

3:53

institutions there is no other

3:56

alternative the unity of Gaza and the

3:58

West Bank including e East Jerusalem the

4:00

unity of our territory and people is

4:02

represented by one legitimate address

4:05

that is the Palestinian

4:08

government we must immediately

4:11

ensure the unfettered access of

4:13

humanitarian Aid to 2.3 million people

4:16

who are suffering an imposed famine and

4:19

all of you are seeing getting the images

4:21

from the north of

4:24

Gaza 37 children have died so far of nut

4:28

malnutrition

4:30

people have been crushed to death as

4:32

they were trying to get a loaf of

4:36

bread and finally these images are

4:39

making it to mainstream media like the

4:40

CNN and and the bbcs so images are

4:44

disheartening the highest this last

4:47

October was the the highest number of

4:50

Israel preventing International aid from

4:52

arriving even in comparison to the last

4:55

year

4:57

uh and not only they imposed but the

5:00

wholesale destruction of human and

5:02

material infrastructure from housing and

5:04

health care to sewi networks and

5:06

agricultural land but a ceasefire will

5:09

not be lasting my friends a ceasefire

5:11

will not be lasting without the clear

5:14

political understanding and accompanying

5:17

investment that the issue of Palestine

5:20

needs to be resolved

5:23

now once and for all we have got to

5:26

focus on the root cause Israel has been

5:28

clear in W and action that it has no

5:30

intention of agreeing asisa as of this

5:33

morning and I was with our colleagues in

5:37

Cairo and and other places still foiling

5:40

several opportunities since November

5:43

2023 Israel has been clear over several

5:46

decades of illegal settlement expansion

5:49

that it has also no intention of

5:51

reaching a political outcome other than

5:53

continued territorial expansion and

5:56

indefinite military occupation we have

5:58

got right honorable Emily focus on the

6:02

end game here and the end game so far is

6:05

very clear for Israel on the one hand

6:07

and for us on the other hand or as we

6:10

see now in Gaza it has turned fully uh

6:14

into a genocidal aggression and

6:17

therefore just

6:19

to touch really on how do we begin to

6:22

heal

6:23

this given what we know already

6:26

particularly in light of the

6:28

international court of justice

6:30

opinion that Israel’s occupation is

6:33

unlawful and must end that all the

6:35

settlements are illegal and must be

6:37

dismantled and that all third party

6:39

states must cease to provide any legal

6:42

political or material material support

6:44

to Israel’s occupation therefore in

6:47

light of this there are four obvious

6:49

ways to pressure Israel and to change

6:52

the political status quo and here I also

6:54

mean the UK number one a comprehensive

6:57

arms

6:58

embargo number two sanctions number

7:00

three accountability and number four an

7:04

immediate former recognition of the

7:06

State of Palestine may I ask you to

7:08

pause that because it’s a very

7:10

comprehensive answer and we have some

7:12

other questions specifically for you and

7:15

we don’t need we don’t want to to repeat

7:17

that but there may well be many things

7:20

that you’ve said in your statement that

7:21

we would like to ask you further

7:23

questions on so given the time

7:25

constraints that we have if if you if

7:27

you wouldn’t

7:28

mind

7:58

e e