Palestina, erresilientzia (55)

Song, kanta

“My Name is Gaza“

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1809903714389385382

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Noctis Draven@DravenNoctis

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Noctis Draven@DravenNoctis

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Noctis Draven@DravenNoctis

uzt. 20

BELLA HADID: “IM NOT AFRAID TO LOSE MODELLING JOBS & I WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK UP ON PALESTINE”

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1814480092934148348

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Patti Politics @impattipolitics

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Thomas Fazi@battleforeurope

Sulaiman Ahmed@ShaykhSulaiman

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Khalissee@Kahlissee

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Double Down News@DoubleDownNews

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Mohamad Safa@mhdksafa

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Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil@ivan_8848

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sarah@sahouraxo

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Megatron@Megatron_ron

Uzt. 27

NEW: The woman who mocked Jesus Christ at the Olympic Games in Paris is the Jewish woman Barbara Butch, coming from a traditional Jewish family according to Wikipedia

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Gehiago erakutsi

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Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil@ivan_8848

Jake Shields@jakeshieldsajj

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1817243861582049563

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“We Need A One State Solution” – Prof. Avi Shlaim Destroys Israel’s Myths

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/live/BU1H7I3dE-I

Avi Shlaim is one of the great living historians: Professor of International Relations at Oxford University, he’s a proud self-described Arab Jew, born in Baghdad in 1945. That heritage has deeply influenced him, and we talk about Zionism, the real history of Israel that is often erased, defying the attempt to start the clock on 7th October, the question of state terrorism, how there could have been a different approach to Hamas, genocide – and why a one state giving equal rights to all is the solution.

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

hello I’m very honored today to be joined by a very distinguished guest Professor ABI slame I know very many of

0:06

you have been very excited I I gave people a heads up um that I’m talking to you today AB so thank you so much for

0:12

joining me for those who don’t know very distinguished historian Specialist of course in the Middle East Israel

0:18

Zionism and in the current horror um one of the best pieces of work that I’ve

0:25

certainly read was by you in Prospect magazine and that went viral um now I me first it’s a huge honor to

0:33

be joined by you so thank you so much for joining us I just want to start by talking about yourself if that if that’s

0:39

okay um because you’ve got a very fascinating and relevant backstory and I think we’ll end up going full circle

0:45

with this actually by the end you’re Jewish and you were born um in Iraq so

0:51

just wondering if you want to tell us just a bit about that history because it’s obviously extremely relevant um I was born in Baghdad in

1:01

1945 to a Jewish family uh and when I was 5 years old my

1:07

family moved to Israel so I went to school uh in Israel and I recently wrote

1:15

an autobiography uh which is called three worlds Memoirs of an Arab Jew uh so

1:24

today I describe myself as an Arab Jew

1:30

and this is a very controversial term in Israel Israelis say that it’s a

1:36

contradiction in terms it’s um an ontological

1:41

impossibility if you are a Jew you cannot be an Arab and if you’re an Arab

1:47

you cannot be a Jew well I beg to differ and I can think of no better way of

1:53

describing my initial identity as that of an Arab Jew um uh we

2:01

were um Arab Jews in Baghdad we spoke Arabic at home we spoke only Arabic at

2:09

home uh culture was Arab culture uh uh

2:14

Customs were Arab uh Customs my parents music was a nice blend of Jewish and

2:22

Arabic music uh and the Iraqi there was a

2:28

Jewish community in every Arab State throughout the Arab

2:34

world um and the Jewish community in Iraq was the most prosperous the most

2:42

successful the most uh well integrated community and it contributed to um um

2:51

nation building at every level so the Jews were a very positive element in

2:57

Arab Society in the 1930s and 40s um this all changed with the

3:05

establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and the Arab the defeat of the Arab

3:11

armies uh in Palestine there was a backlash against

3:17

the Jews and it was uh this backlash that uprooted my family and

3:24

myself but I still like to describe myself as an Arab Jew controversial as

3:32

it is because I’m proud of being

3:37

Jewish um and I’m equally proud of being an Arab I’m proud of my Arab Heritage

3:44

and I don’t see any contradiction between the two um and my Memoirs have

3:51

aroused a lot of interest in the Arab world because uh anyone who was born

3:58

after 194 48 has no idea that once upon a time there was a very extensive Jewish

4:07

community that lived in the Arab world and for the most part lived in harmony

4:14

with coexistence um and uh for my family and

4:19

myself Muslim Jewish coexistence was not an ideal was not an abstract idea it was

4:27

a everyday reality and it is this world that has been this old world very happy

4:35

world was Swept Away in the 20th century by the Cold War uh cold Winds of

4:42

nationalism and it’s that world that I um wanted to

4:49

recreate um reanimate in my Memoirs and as you

4:54

suggested uh hopefully we’ll end up at um in a full circle and come back to

5:02

this idea of Jewish Muslim coexistence possibly in one Democratic state in

5:10

Israel Palestine I I I think that is how we will go full circle I should also

5:15

explain by the way I mean I I spoke before I’m in Paris there’s building work currently going on so I’m siling to

5:21

myself which will be to the Delight of much of my audience but we will go full circle with with what you just said by

5:26

the end now I’m just interested your thoughts about the evolution of Zion and I’m interested in this because the left

5:32

and this is perhaps something that the left could be self-critical about but it’s a history people don’t realize the

5:37

the left used have quite a different relationship with cism and indeed when the when Israel was founded much of the

5:43

left supported that um I mean I’m not sure if we can flate the Soviet Union with the left but the Soviet Union at

5:49

the time was the first state to to draw back the foundation of Israel people might remember 1985 Neil kinnick’s

5:56

famous speech when he attacked militant and Eric heer walked off the stage um very much a left wi stalwork also a

6:03

Zionist Tony Ben used to denounce the PLO it’s quite interesting that history is often not discussed and I’m just

6:09

wondering what you thought about that how Zionism was originally seen but whether what we see now was actually The

6:16

Logical endo and evolution um of Zionism it used to have these socialist

6:21

pretenses but it was always based on that mass displacement of the Palestinians to NABA which at the time

6:27

much of the left didn’t even talk about so I’m just wondering what your thoughts about how Zionism was originally seen

6:32

and whether its reality was airbrushed and whether you see it it’s developed now as its inevitable

6:39

Endo uh Zionism was a liberal

6:44

ideology uh and based on universal values like Freedom Independence Justice

6:54

and um equality and in the 1950s Israel

7:00

was indeed a a socialist icon uh and because it was Democratic because it was

7:07

socialist because it was Progressive it received a huge amount of

7:14

international sympathy and support but Israel has evolved a long way from that

7:21

um early period um and uh we will probably come

7:27

back to that later

7:32

um what happened in reality is that Israel mistreated the

7:40

Palestinians Israel embarked on the systematic takeover of Palestine and a

7:47

huge gap developed between the Zionist rhetoric the Zionist ideal and the

7:53

reality of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians on the ground and um um the

8:01

Zionist founding fathers fill this Gap

8:06

uh with hug and hypocrisy um

8:13

now n chomski once said

8:18

that settler Zionism is the most extreme and vicious

8:25

form of imperialism the Palestinians have had

8:31

the unique Misfortune of Being at the receiving end of both Zion settler

8:37

colonialism on the one hand uh and Western imperialism on the other hand

8:44

first during the British mandate when it was Britain and since 1948 it’s been

8:51

American imperialism that has supported the Zionist uh project so um uh

9:00

Zionism was increasing or rather the state of Israel was increasingly

9:06

seen um as an imperialist power uh Allied to America and there is

9:13

no better demonstration of that perception critical perception of Israel

9:20

than uh the trategy tragedy that is unfolding in the Gaza street today not

9:27

just with American complicity but with American active support for the

9:35

Israeli um massacres I was very stru by something

9:41

which the brilliant um Canadian writer n m Klein he’s had a big impact on myself

9:48

and a whole I’d say generation of progressive writers and thinkers and she’s G Jewish herself and she wrote

9:55

about how the West founded Israel as a form of reparation uh for the crimes committed against the

10:02

Jewish people and obviously within living memory the the Holocaust the attempt to exterminate the entire Jewish population two-thirds of whom are killed

10:08

in Europe in a very short space of time but she said that involved granting a form of exceptionalism um whereby for example

10:16

the forms of colonialism that the West was at that time increasingly been forced uh to abandon um because of the

10:24

struggle of the peoples who’d been colonized but Israel almost was given an optal out of that and a form of

10:30

exceptionalism there something actually razi gal the Israeli American um scholar

10:36

of genocide and Holocaust I’ve I’ve interviewed I mean he talks about this how there’s a form of exceptionalism

10:41

granted in international law to Israel as a consequence and I was just wondering what you thought about that

10:46

kind of analysis I suppose

10:52

um the Holocaust was a uniquely evil and

10:57

catastrophic event um and it had consequences one of the consequences was

11:06

to um uh make an unable case for an

11:12

independent Jewish State um and in the aftermath of the second world

11:19

war there was a um Western feeling of guilt towards the

11:27

Jewish people um and um a feeling that

11:35

um um they had to be compensated um for the

11:42

Holocaust and something really major something Titanic had to be done for the

11:48

Jews in the aftermath of this catastrophe and that thing was an

11:54

independent Jewish State this explains why the UN um voted for the partition of

12:01

Palestine in 1947 the partition of mandatory Palestine into two states one Arab one

12:11

Jewish this was very unfair to the Arabs because the Jews were a minority and

12:16

then the and they were allocated 55% of mandatory Palestine so the Arabs

12:23

rejected um partition and uh went to

12:29

War um and then in the course of the war Israel expanded its borders to

12:36

78% of mandatory uh Palestine so the

12:42

Holocaust explains the great deal about why Israel came into existence in the

12:50

first place and the rather um permissive attitude towards Israel and its use of

12:58

force after it was um established but I um cannot agree that

13:08

Israel was granted an exceptional status

13:13

under international law because international law is universal the same rules apply to everybody and they apply

13:21

to Israel as well uh and it’s because of Israel’s

13:27

Behavior because of its use of military force because of its violations of

13:33

international law because of the uh occupation that it alienated uh World opinion and today I

13:43

think that more and more people no longer give Israel this immunity this

13:51

exceptional status uh because the Holocaust the Jews

13:57

were the victims of of the Holocaust whereas today in Gaza it’s Israel which

14:04

is the per the per the perpetrator of a genocide of Palestinians so things have

14:13

changed very radically uh and now Israel receives much less

14:18

immunity uh in public opinion uh because of the

14:24

Holocaust I just interested in as a historian obiously of this of of Israel

14:32

of Zionism the Middle East um the the attempt to start the clock on the 7th of

14:38

October and obviously 7th of October is a huge trauma it was a huge trauma for people obviously in Israel and and

14:44

Beyond and it included war crimes civili war crimes which committed against

14:50

innocent Israeli civilians which no one should be any doubt about um what what

14:56

there’s been is obviously often this all the way through an attempt to say this is when this all began essentially and

15:02

everything else apartheid occupation mass displac of the Palestinians is from

15:08

1948 onwards before arguably I’m just wondering what your thoughts about that and why it’s

15:14

important to have a historical context and both for sth of October but also to

15:21

explain everything that’s happened since uh it’s impossible to make any

15:28

sense of what is happening today without understanding the historical context of

15:34

the Israeli Palestinian uh conflict uh the Hamas attack on Israel on the 7th of October

15:43

was utterly horrific um and cannot be justified

15:50

because it involved the killing of 1200 Israelis mostly uh civilians and

15:59

atrocities were committed so it was a horrific event which has been denounced

16:06

and must be denounced uh but as the Secretary

16:12

General of the United Nations said at the time this attack didn’t happen in a

16:20

vacuum it happened in the context of 56 years of suffocating Israeli

16:29

occupation and he went on to say uh that the

16:35

context uh doesn’t justify the attack but it helps to explain it and the

16:42

Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Mr Eran immediately launched a vicious

16:49

personal attack on the Secretary General of the United Nations he accused him

16:54

falsely of anti-Semitism he said nothing that was anti uh Semitic he called for his

17:02

resignation he um um uh appealed to

17:08

members of the United Nations to stop funding the

17:13

organization uh and he even said that the Secretary General of the UN is a

17:18

threat to World Peace um now there is nothing new about

17:25

Israeli um hostility towards the UN but the contrast between the civility the

17:32

decency the humanity of the Secretary General and the cruess and the crassness

17:39

of um uh the Israeli representative is very

17:44

striking uh so uh we I would

17:49

follow uh and I have followed in my writing the example of the secretary uh

17:57

general of the UN in trying to put the war in Gaza in a historical

18:04

context and the brief historical context the long historical context

18:10

would take us back to the Balo Declaration of 19 uh 17 but I would like to start uh with uh

18:19

the Israeli occupation of Gaza in 1967 um and um the fact that the

18:29

Palestinians for 56 years have been living under

18:35

occupation the most prolonged and brutal military occupation of modern times so

18:44

this is the everyday reality for Palestinians on the West Bank in Gaza a

18:49

brutal military occupation arbitrary occupation that denies them Independence

18:56

denies them human rights izing all the basic rights that every people is um uh

19:03

entitled to um and um what Israel experienced on the 7th of

19:13

October is a very very extreme and dramatic and painful uh attack but it is

19:22

uh has to be seen against the background of longstanding Palestinian

19:28

uh suffering and there is one other point about the context for the Hamas

19:34

attack prime minister Benjamin netanyahu’s line to the Israeli public

19:40

is that um he is the guarantor of Israeli

19:46

security uh and that the Palestinians are finished the Palestinians are

19:53

defeated Israel has a free hand to do whatever it likes on the US Bank and as

19:59

for Gaza um It’s contained um within the prison of Gaza

20:08

Gaza is the largest open air prison in the world and part of his policy was to

20:15

allow Hamas to govern Gaza but Gaza was contained there was an Israeli blockade

20:22

of Gaza which has been in force um for

20:27

six 16 years and a blockade is a form of

20:33

collective punishment which is prescribed by international law after the Hamas attack on Israel

20:41

Israel um Extended the blockade that had um inflicted so much suffering on the

20:49

Palestinians in Gaza and now they cut of water food medical supplies and and fuel

20:58

so they use starvation as a weapon of War this is a new level of um of U

21:05

brutality of Cruelty even of s uh uh s

21:11

sadism so um um uh that is the

21:16

background to the Hamas attack because the message that that sent was we are

21:23

not defeated we are not finished um and Hamas it’s true that the Palestinian

21:31

Authority doesn’t represent any uh resistance indeed the Palestinian

21:38

Authority in ramala has become the a subcontractor for Israeli security

21:44

that’s why he doesn’t enjoy legitimacy and Hamas said we are still here we

21:51

cannot be ignored and we continue to lead the national struggle against um

22:00

the occupation and there was one other reason for the timing of the Hamas

22:05

attack and that is that um

22:10

America uh persuaded a number of Arab countries for

22:15

Arab countries to sign uh the Abraham Accord with Accords with

22:23

Israel uh and America put very strong pressure on Saudi Arabia to join the

22:28

circle of the Abraham Accords and there was a deal that was on the table it

22:34

would have taken a few more weeks and uh Saudi Arabia would have joined um um the

22:41

circle of Arab states who are at peace with Israel and Hamas wanted to prevent

22:48

that um and uh indeed at the very least Saudi Arabia has suspended the the

22:56

attempt to sign a p peace agreement uh with Israel the Abraham Accords

23:03

represent a stabbing the back to the Palestinians because they give Netanyahu

23:08

what he wants netanyahu’s line is that Israel U can make peace with the Arab

23:16

states without making any concessions to the Palestinians and he seemed to be

23:23

Vindicated but now as a result of the Hamas attack it is clear that the Arab world

23:32

cannot continue to ignore the Palestinians and that the Palestinians are going to continue to put up

23:39

resistance to the occupation I’m interested in how you

23:44

termed Israel’s Onslaught against Gaza State terrorism given I mean terrorism has been used by Western States

23:50

basically to claim their violence is legitimate moral and uh in contrast to their opponents as they politicize term

23:56

terrorism is interesting actually in the context of the so-called dier Doctrine developed in the 2006 Lebanon war um in

24:05

which essentially Israeli strategy is to you you inflict uh terrible damage on

24:11

civilian populations um with terrible civan fatalities in order in the context of

24:18

Lebanon to get them to put pressure on hezb and in in Gaza to put pressure on Hamas and a very brilliant Israeli and

24:26

Palestinian publication called 972 magazine plus 972 magazine actually used

24:33

Source they spoke to sources of military intelligence to kind of confirm this was actually happening but I’m just interesting that your your view on state

24:39

terrorism Israel given obviously the claim the official claim of Israel is this is self-defense that they’re waging

24:46

self-defense to shut down terrorism so just what’s your thoughts on how terrorism is used and why we should talk

24:52

about this Su State terrorism terrorism is the use of

24:59

military force against civilians for a political

25:05

purpose um and uh a Hamas attack on

25:11

Israeli civilians is a form of terrorism and an Israeli attack on

25:19

Palestinian civilians in Gaza for political purposes is a form in my book

25:27

is a form of State terrorism now Israel claims that it has

25:34

the right to self-defense and all its Western uh

25:41

allies like Biden like um Rishi sunak

25:46

like um um Sama repeat parate fashion that Israel

25:54

has the right to uh defend itself but it doesn’t under international law

26:01

because although Israel um withdraw unilaterally from Gaza in

26:07

2005 it is still the occupying power because it controls access by L SE and

26:13

air to Gaza so Israel is the occupying power and you have the right to

26:19

self-defense if the attack comes from another state or if the attack comes you

26:27

you you uh uh but you don’t have the right to selfdefense if the attack comes from an

26:34

area under occupation to put it more simply Israel doesn’t have the right to

26:41

self-defense against the people that it occupies and therefore I call the

26:48

Israeli attacks on Gaza um this is by my count this is the sixth Israeli military

26:56

offensive in Gaza and all of them are acts of State terrorism in as much as

27:03

they are directed not against Hamas but against the people of Gaza as a whole

27:10

and uh if I may I’d like to refer to the first Israeli attack on Gaza uh

27:18

operation castled in late um

27:24

December 2008 and early uh Janu 2009 that was Operation castled there is

27:32

the Goldstone report about that operation and uh it’s a very impressive

27:38

report very detailed uh um account of 33

27:45

Israel episodes and many Israeli war crimes and the conclusion is that the

27:50

Israeli attack on Gaza was in a broader sense an attack on the people of Gaza

27:57

and it its aim was to um to punish humiliate and terrorize the people of

28:06

Gaza and this uh current offensive in Gaza is also intended to terrorize to

28:14

punish and to terrorize the people of of Gaza um uh and the strongest argument is

28:24

the one that you mentioned the dahia doctrine this is a doctrine that was

28:31

developed by the IDF uh during the second war uh in Lebanon and what it

28:38

says is that Israel is entitled to inflict very very severe damage and

28:45

suffering on civilians for the purpose of den denying

28:51

the resources denying their support to um um

28:58

in that in that uh in Lebanon it was hisbah in Gaz Hamas so under the dahah

29:09

uh Doctrine Israel is um entitled to

29:14

cause massive um Carnage and damage to

29:20

uh civilian infrastructure and buildings uh in order

29:27

to turn the population against

29:33

Hamas but this war has been counterproductive and self-defeating

29:38

because the Israeli atrocities um and

29:45

inhuman uh Behavior towards the civilians in

29:50

Gaza has turned the people of Gaza not against Hamas but against is Israel and

29:59

public opinion shows that if there was a Palestinian election today um fat will

30:06

receive 16% and Hamas would receive 60% so

30:12

Israel has failed in its aim of using military force against civilians in

30:18

order to turn them against uh Hamas I mean in in terms of Hamas and

30:26

you know I think some people find this challenging they would have found it challenging before the seventh of October attacks and they certainly would

30:32

find it challenging now controversial to discuss this but it’s about the relationship between or the approach

30:39

towards Hamas I suppose and when Hamas won the elections in 2006 which they won

30:45

partly because well large part because of huge disillusionment with fata which had previously dominated who were widely

30:51

perceived as corrupt and essentially become ACC appendages of the Israeli occupation that’s how many Palestinians

30:57

in the West Bank um came to see fata so Hamas kind of came to power partly you

31:03

know because people were fed up with fata basically but that caused then a Siege of Gaza which is the longest such

31:12

Siege in in modern times but actually your view is actually there could have been a different approach and and there

31:18

is you know people go back to the chart of Hamas and say well look Hamas just would have wipe out Israel and so on um

31:24

but actually they’re more complicated than fluid than that aren’t they um in the way that they’ve been betrayed and

31:30

actually you know we’re going to build a coalition here Tony Blair of all people not someone I normally quote um on the

31:37

Middle East certainly um but he actually back in 2017 he said it it was wrong for

31:44

the West to have boycotted um Hamas in the aftermath of their win and there should have been a

31:50

different approach was actually you know if even Tony Blair can say it then then why can’t we but I’m just wondering what

31:56

are your thoughts on that because I I think people will find this challenging but I think it’s a very interesting thing to talk about Owen I’m so glad that you brought

32:03

up the Palestinian elections of two January

32:09

2006 because most people um have never heard of it uh and it’s it’s uh it’s not

32:18

never mentioned in the current discourse about Gaza so the simple fact is that in

32:27

January 2006 there was an all um Palestine elections and Hamas won an

32:36

absolute majority not just in Gaza but in the West Bank as well an absolute majority

32:44

in what was generally recognized and as a fair and free uh

32:51

election and Hamas went on to form a government and it was a moderate

32:58

government despite the charter once Hamas was in power it had adopted the

33:03

Parliamentary vote to power um and it won power

33:09

legitimately once it was in power it moderated its program uh and it called

33:15

for um uh negotiations with Israel on a

33:20

long-term truth could be 20 years 30 years 40 years and Israel refused to

33:28

negotiate and um the United States uh

33:34

and European union and Britain and Prime Minister Tony Blair to their Eternal

33:42

shame backed Israel in refusing to recognize the democratically elected

33:49

government and they resorted to economic Warfare to

33:55

undermine um the Hamas government and where was to come

34:02

as the Palestine papers uh a cash of

34:07

1600 documents that were leaked to Al jazer reveal there was a plot against

34:13

Hamas and uh a secret committee was set up it was called the Gaza committee and

34:19

on it were represented fata Israel Brit America and and Egyptian inter elligence

34:27

and the aim uh was to isolate weaken

34:33

Hamas uh and um Israel and America

34:39

armed uh fata and encourag fata to launch uh to mount um

34:47

audet in order to capture power and drive Hamas out of power and Hamas

34:54

preempted the crew against the um uh by seizing power in in

35:01

Gaza now the attitude of the western Powers is very revealing during this

35:08

critical period they say that um they support democracy and they promote

35:16

democracy here was an example of Arab democracy a shining example of Arab de

35:23

democracy it was an incredible achievement for the Palestinians to have democracy under the conditions of

35:29

military uh o occupation um but the Western powers in

35:36

Israel uh said they the people had spoken but the people had voted for the

35:43

wrong bunch of politicians and therefore they don’t recognize them this recogn

35:49

reminds me of something that bertral bre said after the workers Uprising in East

35:56

Germany in 1953 um uh if the government doesn’t

36:02

like the people the government should dissolve the people and elect

36:11

another that’s one of my favorite quotes which I often refer to um uh now I mean

36:18

in terms of I mean it’s interesting the moment I’ve been talking a lot at the moment about South Africa’s case against

36:24

Israel um ACC Israel of genocide taking Israel to the international court of

36:30

justice and it’s it’s a one of the most chilling documents I’ve ever read in my

36:36

entire life a very thorough Loy piece one of the things it it looks like acts

36:42

conduct and it also looks at language um and it is striking I mean again I keep mentioning razi gal the um

36:49

Israeli American Prof associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies but he said it’s very rare for genocidal intent regardless of what

36:56

people think about conduct but genocidal intent to be so explicitly spoken on so

37:01

many multiple occasions and since that document came out there have been so many other examples of genocidal

37:07

incitement which is illegal under the 1948 genocide convention um a state is

37:12

Duty bound to prosecute those who use public platforms to incite genocide but I’m just interesting what you think

37:18

about that is you know is that kind of does this just basically kind of this is the inevitable consequence of any form

37:24

of settler colonialism you get a colonizer it takes the land of the people who don’t want their land taken

37:30

off them you get forms of violence which then are met with terrible repression

37:35

which then feeds more violence very asymmetric way um and you get this cycle

37:42

where eventually the occupi settler State essentially just adopts a increasingly genocidal posture I don’t

37:48

know what are your thoughts about that you know has this emerged in eight Le from Zionism or or is this you know what

37:54

could could a different outcome have been achieved settler

38:02

colonialism has its own Dynamic um it’s not like any other form

38:09

of colonialism where there is a Metropole uh people from that country go and

38:17

occupy and live in another country and they have a home to go back to settler

38:24

colonialism uh is different uh and Zionism was a settler Colonial

38:30

movement from the beginning um and the logic of settler

38:37

colonialism since there is another people on the land is to eliminate that

38:44

people the rhetoric was very different the rhetoric was developing Palestine

38:49

for the benefit of both peoples but the reality was that it was a Jewish

38:55

exclusive setler Colonial movement which after

39:01

1917 embarked on the systematic takeover of

39:07

Palestine so you either carry out the ethnic

39:12

cleansing of uh Palestine um and this is what Israel has

39:20

been doing systematically uh and in

39:25

1948 the was the first nakba 3/4 of a million Palestinians

39:32

became refugees um uh and now we are on the

39:38

verge of uh a second nakba and what is

39:45

utterly um horrific is the genocidal rhetoric that

39:52

we hear in Israel and it’s increasing all the time and it’s not one or two

39:57

people and it’s not marginal people it’s from the president down the president of

40:04

Israel said there are no innocent people in Gaza will Israel has just

40:10

massacred over 22,000 people 2third of them are women

40:17

and children um uh and

40:23

um and and there have been so many other genocidal explicit genocidal statement

40:30

uh a one Rabbi talked about dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza as an

40:37

option and there is a majority in Israeli public opinion for an expulsion

40:44

of all the people in Gaza all 2.3 um million people and this is not

40:52

just loose talk uh if there is a plan

40:57

that was uh of the Israeli Ministry of intelligence dated 13 of October which

41:05

favors uh the expulsion of um uh the population of Gaza to Northern Sinai

41:14

against Egyptian opposition Egypt is opposed to ethnic cleansing Jordan is

41:19

opposed to e cleansing but the direction of Israeli policy seems to be pointing

41:25

to uh towards ethnic cleansing because the the civilians in Gaza were pushed from

41:34

the north to the South and they now they are concentrated in an Ever narrower area near the border with uh Gaza and

41:44

the Minister of Finance Vel smri has

41:50

said that openly that this Palestinian the population of Gaza should be reduced

41:57

from 2.3 million to maybe 100 or 2,000 uh so

42:05

uh I don’t think ever in history there’s been so much evidence of rhetorical

42:12

support uh for genocide which shows a definite

42:19

intention to um commit um

42:24

genocide uh and what is very worrying in all this is the demonizing of the

42:32

Palestinian people increasingly and and the distinction is not made between

42:39

Hamas uh and the Palestinian people uh in general uh more and more Israeli

42:48

ministers are referring to the Palestinians uh as Nazis and this is

42:53

what happened in Nazi Germany first came the demonization of the Jews and then came

43:02

the Holocaust and I’m extremely worried that this dehumanization of the Palestinian people

43:09

as a whole is Paving the way to ethnic cleansing and uh in more extreme terms

43:17

to um um to to to uh to

43:24

genocide just before we go full circle and we go we talk about what happens next and and and prospects

43:31

for well something which emerges from this horror which can provide the only

43:37

solution which is a lasting piece which offers security and happiness to Jews

43:45

Palestinians on the basis of a shared land but before I just ask you we talk about that one of the bleakest things I

43:51

look at the polling in Israel um of the Israeli Jewish population when most

43:58

think not enough Firepower has been used a large majority support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza one of the reasons I

44:05

find that so Bleak it’s very important to say millions of Jewish people don’t live in Israel I mean if we look in the US the Jewish population is more

44:12

Progressive than the average American and a whole generation of younger Jews are actually at the Forefront of this of

44:18

the of the solidarity move in Palestine at the moment I think that’s something which would worry and disturb Israel

44:23

very much younger G’s turning away from Israel in the United States and the us obviously is so instrumental to allowing

44:30

Israel to continue to behave as it does but the reason I just find it so bleep looking at that is the left as we

44:36

understand it would not exist without Jewish people and and that’s one of the reasons actually particularly in the

44:41

20th century early 20th century anti-semites partly used the fact that

44:46

je were always over represented in the left and in movements for emancipation Liberation social justice to hate Jewish

44:53

people even more I mean the Nazis obviously spoke about International Bolshevik uh conspiracy the German left

44:59

obviously again Jews were over represented and I’m just interested in terms of the that form of humanism

45:06

Jewish humanism and the left are so intertwined and in a way Israel’s had to wage war against it hasn’t it and one of

45:14

the reasons people like yourself often get the wrath of apologist for Israel as

45:20

a Jewish person who speaks out against what Israel is doing is your a reminder of that tradition

45:26

which in a sense Israel has sought to to marginalize I just wonder what your thoughts about that

45:33

are I’m not a practicing Jew but as I said earlier I’m proud of being Jewish

45:41

and as I understand it the three principal pillars of Judaism are truth

45:49

justice and peace and I look at um the Pres

45:56

government in Israel at Netanyahu uh

46:01

himself and he doesn’t represent any of these values uh he’s a corrupt um and mous

46:11

politician who stands trial on serious charges of

46:17

corruption and one of the reasons that he’s fighting this war and a long War as

46:24

he says in the way that he does is because once the fighting stops the

46:30

countdown will start for uh the end of his Premier ship and if he’s indicted

46:37

he’s likely to end up in prison so this is the kind of person who leads Israel

46:45

today and he personifies the ugliest the most brutal

46:52

the most uh racist um the most xenophobic aspect of the worst kind of

47:01

Zionism but uh he’s one person then his

47:08

Coalition Partners one Coalition partner is um um itamar

47:16

Ben who is the Minister of international internal security and he um is the leader of uh a

47:27

party called Jewish power the name itself is a fascist and he himself is an

47:35

outright uh fascist who uh whose hero was Rabbi

47:42

Kahan um uh who whose party had been outlawed and another hero of Ben was

47:52

baru Goldin who had committed a massacre of

47:58

28 Palestinian worshippers in the mosque

48:03

in heon um and um there is betel

48:12

smri uh who is um a declared um

48:19

homophobe uh and uh an extreme Jewish supremacist

48:26

and those two are calling for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine not just from

48:32

Gaza but from the West Bank uh as well so you have an Israeli government which

48:38

is the most um uh rightwing and racist government in Israel’s history the most

48:46

Pro uh settler and also the most Jewish

48:51

supremacist um uh government so Zionism has evolved over the years and

49:00

it had a liberal phase it had a socialist phase in the 1950s that I mentioned earlier but today it has moved

49:09

to the extreme right and it’s a really reactionary discriminatory racist

49:16

expansionist um uh form of uh Zionism this is what Israel is today and that is

49:25

why um um more and more young people in

49:31

particular have turned against Israel and as you said in America it’s not just

49:38

younger Jews but the whole Community uh has shifted uh its attitude

49:45

towards Israel um and there so what we have is a

49:51

disconnect in the west between the governments the European governments

49:57

British government American government the governments that are remain almost

50:02

blindly and uncritically uh pro-israeli and the public which is

50:09

increasingly Pro Palestinians and increasingly um uh critical of

50:16

Israel uh so we have this disconnect and one reason that I have for optimism a

50:26

very limited reason is that public opinion has shifted very dramatically in

50:32

the last three months uh because of the Israeli actions uh in Gaza and in the

50:39

long term uh for Western foreign policy is

50:44

bound to catch up with public opinion I mean that I certainly think is

50:51

something which is hopeful and something which Israel should be very worried about because I mean I think a whole

50:57

gener huge numbers of people not just younger people you’re quite right have been very politicized by what what what they’re

51:03

seeing and I think the dam will eventually break there but in terms of the future prospects because as I’ve

51:09

said there’s only one lasting piece here and that’s where this land is shared by

51:15

by Jews by Palestinians of Muslim predominantly also Christian and other religions and those of no religion but I

51:23

mean it seems so utopian as like a of a single Democratic state which I’m fascinated in I mean it automatically

51:29

that’s what appeals to people like myself a single Democratic state where all have equal rights because we see you

51:36

know Gaza may be inhospitable its population driven out what survives of it in the West Bank we’re seeing this

51:44

huge level of just State Terror again against the Palestinian population the

51:49

illegal settlements in any case which make it a viable Palestinian State impossible and you know it’s been put to

51:56

me that you know even if you got an Israeli state which try to dismantle those settlements you basically get a

52:01

civil war in Israel that would essentially what would happen um and also there’s just too much Fury and

52:08

anger now so many Palestinians have seen what Israel have done and is doing and

52:13

on on the other side you get many Israeli Jews will say well well you know

52:19

they’ll know after what they’ve done that they risk terrible terrible Vengeance and they’ve seen seventh of

52:24

October it’s not exactly an abstraction so then how could there ever be the Democratic secular state where everyone

52:31

has equal rights which which would encapsulate encaps you know your your

52:37

background your heritage shows what is possible but could it ever be possible and how do we get

52:46

there there used to be a solution to the Israeli Palestinian

52:52

conflict and it’s the two state ution uh and there’s been a massive

53:00

International consensus behind a two-state

53:06

solution um but it has become fashionable to say that the two State

53:11

solution is dead why is it dead it’s because Israel

53:17

killed it with the settlements uh if you want a two-state

53:24

solution uh that means a Palestinian state with on the West Bank and Gaza

53:32

with a capital city in East Jerusalem that is uh 22% of historic

53:39

Palestine it’s not asking very much um it’s asking for an independent

53:45

Palestinian State on a fifth of the Homeland and by signing up to the Oslo

53:52

Accord in 1993 the PLO accepted the two-state

53:58

solution but it was not to be because Israel continued to expand settlements

54:04

on the West Bank and Israel built uh the so-called security barrier uh uh on the

54:11

West Bank uh and Israel by its own territorial

54:17

expansion has killed the two states

54:23

solution I believe that the two-state solution was never born because no Israeli government since

54:33

1967 have offered a formula uh for a two-state solution that

54:40

is acceptable that would be acceptable even to the most moderate Palestinian

54:47

leader and no American government has ever put any serious pressure on Israel

54:54

to move to towards a two-state solution uh so today there is no

55:01

possibility of a two State solution and Israel rejects it utterly and

55:09

totally um uh so what are the Alternatives today and the alternatives

55:17

are more of the same continuing Israeli

55:22

occupation which uh by necessity would become more and more brutal and would

55:28

involve more and more ethnic cleansing um um and Israel is already an

55:35

apartheid state and this would carry aparti to a new and more uh brutal

55:45

form uh that’s one alternative uh uh the status quo uh plus

55:54

the current Israeli agenda of destroying Hamas alog together and deep

56:03

populating Gaza that’s one alternative it’s not acceptable to me and the other

56:10

alternative uh the one that I support is uh one

56:17

state from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea with equal rights for

56:23

all his citizens regardless of religion and um and

56:30

ethnicity and I would add that the reality today is one state with

56:38

Israel dominating the whole area uh and this is not a democracy it’s

56:45

an ethnocracy it’s a political system in which one ethnic group dominates the

56:50

other and the Israeli government is I already said is the most

56:56

overtly um Jewish supremacist government in

57:02

history uh Israel is the only member state of the United Nations that I know

57:09

which is officially racist why do I say this I say it because the nation state

57:18

law the Jewish nation state law of July 2018 says that the Jews

57:25

have a unique right to self-determination in the state of

57:31

Israel so that creates two categories of people um Jews uh who are superior and

57:40

Arabs who are inferior that’s racist but the present government has gone even

57:46

further than that racist law because the policy guidelines of the present

57:53

government say Jews have an exclusive right to sell

57:59

determination in the whole land of Israel that includes the West Bank so

58:05

now this government denies any Palestinian national uh National

58:12

rights uh and this brings me back to the solution that would be acceptable to me

58:18

and that is one Democratic State uh with equal rights

58:26

and this uh would seem like an Impossible Dream maybe it is an

58:33

Impossible Dream but it’s a noble vision and it’s a democratic vision and

58:42

moreover um because of the history of my family and of the

58:50

Jews of Iraq when Muslim Jewish coexistence was the everyday reality was

58:57

the normal thing that experience enables me to think of a

59:04

better future for our region uh than the one that we um uh see

59:12

today um uh and um I believe that more

59:20

and more people would come to see this way to see one state with equal rights

59:27

is the only viable uh formula um and the only formula that

59:36

would ensure security for Israel and safety for the Jews because Israel was

59:43

created as a Haven for the Jew Jews anywhere but today Israel is the

59:49

least safe place for Jews in the world

59:54

and Israel demands 100% security for itself which translates into 100%

1:00:02

insecurity for the Palestinians and that and um Israel would never have security

1:00:10

unless there is Palestinian Independence and equal rights and my only um

1:00:19

solution my only um um formul

1:00:25

the only formula I can think of that would provide peace and

1:00:32

security um for both people is the one state and one final point is that Israel

1:00:41

has been demonizing the Palestinians calling them terrorists not

1:00:46

just Hamas but the entire Palestinian people I regard Palestinians as a normal

1:00:53

people is a people which like any other people in

1:00:58

the world would like to live in peace uh in uh freedom and dignity on its

1:01:06

Homeland Israel has prevented them the Palestinians from achieving uh this goal

1:01:13

and one state would enable the Palestinians to realize their

1:01:18

basic rights I think that’s a wonderful place to end I mean it’s been such an honor to

1:01:25

have you um an honor for lots of different reasons um obviously providing us with with a crucial historical

1:01:32

context which I mean you know our media particularly the British media ill serves the public um because it often

1:01:40

treats news events as though they you know think day one was last week um but

1:01:45

that’s particularly pernicious when it comes to something you know like when we’re talking about Israel and and

1:01:51

Palestine but the other the other reason such an honor to have used the the most important two words for me uh since this

1:01:58

current round of horror has began um is is moral Clarity and and you’ve shown I

1:02:04

think moral Clarity in in in spad throughout everything that you’ve said um and I think moral clarity as I’ve

1:02:10

said is uh is is crucial when we’re talking about all this so for those who’ve watched please do share this

1:02:17

video like And subscribe um but a very special thanks to you uh Professor thank you so much thank you and it’s been a

1:02:25

pleasure to be in conversation with you it’s big honor thank you

oooooo

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