Palestina, erresilientzia (35)

Aipamena

Karmen Joller @KarmenJoller

uzt. 1

Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur oPt@FranceskAlbs

uzt. 2

This perfectly sums up my life as a UN Independent Expert. In my case, Palestinians—and those who stand in solidarity with them—know very well how hard it is to speak the truth in a world where those with power and privilege have chosen to live a lie.

oooooo

uzt. 3

BREAKING: Israel has killed Professor Hassan Hamdan, a consultant and the Head of burns and plastic surgery department at Nasser Medical Complex, along with all his family members.

uzt. 2

A photo has emerged from inside Israel’s Sde Teiman concentration camp where detained Palestinians face torture.

Khaled Mahajneh, the first lawyer to visit the facility described the facility as ‘more horrific than anything we’ve heard about Abu Ghraib’

https://youtu.be/ge7eF3_M4io?si=MUI7SLKCe_UOVzg4

Thomas Fazi@battleforeurope

uzt. 2

This is what the euro was invented for.

Thomas Fazi@battleforeurope

uzt. 2

This is what the euro was invented for.

oooooo

uzt. 2

The Red Cross has (just) told us the European Gaza Hospital in Khan Yunis has stopped operations. They don’t have the staff or resources after Israeli attacks.

Hospitals are protected under the Geneva Convention.

US and UK have given Israel cover for genocide.

Saul Staniforth@SaulStaniforth

uzt. 2

Israel ordering Palestinians to move, and then move again, and then again, ad infinitum. And each time Israel says the area they are ordering people to move to is safe. And then they bomb it. Now Israel is ordering people to leave Khan Younis, a city they’ve already flattened

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1808019970342691118

Mick Wallace@wallacemick

uzt. 2

How does one become the Vice President of Columbia University when you’re not sure if the #Palestinians are human or not…? The #US of A is in trouble…

Aipamena

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1808158685236961572

oooooo

Richard@ricwe123

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1807779656952639682

oooooo

Arnaud Bertrand@RnaudBertrand

oooooo

Netanel Worthy – נתנאל וורתי@NetanelWorthy

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1808089608195801522

oooooo

oooooo

Courageous Israeli Journalist EXPOSES Netanyahu’s Hideous Plan – w/. Gideon Levy

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkgHDYYRxo

Everyone needs to listen to this incredibly courageous Israeli journalist.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

I’m really delighted again to be joined by the brilliant Gideon Levy who has been one of the most important voices

0:06

throughout this horror more clarity as I always talk about is essential when we’re talking about this and getting

0:12

always his contributions more clarity in Spades G how you doing thank you Owen

0:19

thank you for having me again always pleasure always a huge pleasure so much has happened since we last spoke I just

0:25

quite interested in terms of firstly just in terms of the Dynamics within Israeli society as regard a war which has gone on now since if we

0:33

call it a war it’s probably not really an accurate description but since well we’re getting on for nine months and I’m

0:40

just interested because Israel’s official War aims haven’t been met at all Hamas has not

0:46

been destroyed the hostages have overwhelmingly not been returned by military force more have been far more

0:53

likely been killed um just by area bombing than have been rescued and obviously the big EX ches happened

1:00

through a ceasefire deal and and a prison exchange has that I just trying tojust how much that’s cut through in

1:06

Israeli society that General sense of what was promised at the beginning and

1:11

now we’re nine months in that those official War aims have failed pretty badly I would say on their own

1:19

terms the Israeli mindset is still very very limited and very limited

1:28

to certain points of you and all the rest don’t interest most

1:34

of Israelis namely they see this war is a failure no doubt about it but it is a

1:42

failure only because it did not achieve the Israeli goals and above all Israel failed in

1:50

releasing the hostages but that’s this war is not only about the

1:56

hostages but it’s quite amazing how nine months of killing and destruction in Gaza

2:03

didn’t change anything in Israel’s mindset about the price that Gaza is

2:08

paying I would expect that in a certain stage you know in the beginning it was all about taking

2:15

Revenge really blood was really boiling here as we say after the 7th of October

2:21

people looked for Revenge looked for punishment looked for for for aggression

2:27

because they felt beaten humilated and and also mourning and this was maybe

2:34

understandable but after 9 months nothing changed in former Wars there was

2:40

some kind of dynamic always in the beginning supporting anything Israel is doing and then gradually you get the

2:47

critics about what are we doing and what for are we doing it and above all aren’t

2:53

there any limits this time we still are in the same place must go the hostage must be

3:02

released and that’s our only problems in this war it ter of the human cost um I

3:07

mean there’s been a discussion here and I’ve seen some say well actually people in Israel aren’t seeing the human cost

3:13

it’s not you know being presented on the news I guess my worry always about that

3:19

kind of argument is um that everyone has internet connections I mean even here

3:25

the vast majority of the horrors in Gaza um aren’t been shown on mainstream TV

3:31

channels you just see them on social media I’m just wondering how much is there just I mean in terms of you know

3:39

we’re talking potentially 14,000 children minimum have been

3:44

killed even not withstanding the that you know immediate after M after s October and that kind of

3:50

mentality I mean we’re so far in and there’s been just one of some of the great atrocities I would say the 21st

3:57

century has any of that cut through at all I mean how much has the ne you know with within Israeli

4:04

Society look at this whatever’s happened to us look at this horror I mean has that not changed at

4:11

all I wish I could give you another answer but the answer is still nothing

4:17

penetrates the Israeli conscience it’s it’s I say it with not

4:22

only pain but I’m even surprised me who is suffering really suffering for years

4:29

of Israel apathy and is Israel de humanizing the Palestinians and ignoring

4:36

their suffer for decades and still I can tell you what is happening this time shocks me in the

4:45

level of blindness and the level of not wanting to know and above all this level

4:51

of justifying everything every atrocity every crime

4:57

that the Israeli Army is Comm meeting in Gaza will immediately be justified by I

5:03

would say 95% of the Israelis immediately automatic you don’t even ask

5:10

what why it will be justified to release four hostages and to kill 200

5:17

Palestinians totally justified and would it be 1,000 Palestinians it would have

5:23

been also Justified to get into some neighborhoods to look for bodies of of

5:30

Israel hostages and by the way to kill tens and maybe hundreds of Palestinians

5:36

justifi 15,000 children Justified there are no doubt no Craigs in this position

5:44

and and you really think what happened here this time which is still different

5:49

because in the former Wars there were more voices who really felt some kind of

5:55

human feelings also to the Palestinians here is Israel is still on the 7th of

6:01

October on the eve of the 7th of October 7th of October in the evening we are

6:07

still there we still remember only what

6:12

happened I mean on that that’s why you know back it there was an Israeli Peace movement I mean it was large it brought

6:18

huge numbers of people to the streets including for example the war in Lebanon in the

6:23

1980s I mean there’s not I mean there are I mean they’re extremely voices like

6:28

yourself there’s very courageous Israelis but they’re courageous aspace because they’re so marginalized but there’s not even the seeds as far as I

6:35

can tell of the of of even what we had in the 1980s in Israel that you know the big peace now

6:42

demonstrations you can’t even compare it when Israel committed not committed but

6:47

was a partner to the massacre in Sabra and Cha a passive partner no Israeli

6:55

soldiers participated there were 400,000 people in the streets only for this not for

7:02

nothing else no changing the government no hostages only for the killing of

7:07

Palestinian refugees the slaughtering of them in sub people went and and protested

7:15

Against The Killing against the crime today you will not get

7:22

400 for the same crime um we’ve had just in terms of the

7:29

the the broader context the West Bank and there’s been I mean I know this is coming from um smotrich his one of the

7:38

more extreme elements of an extreme government talking about the potential annexation of the West Bank and even

7:44

suggesting that benim Netanyahu um approves of that and it does strike me that actually when you

7:50

hear that it’s not just saber rattling eventually the general direction is this the annexation of the West Bank in which

7:57

there are 3 million Palestinians living I mean huge numbers of illegal settlements I think 700,000 Israeli

8:04

settlers it do you think that’s where partly we’ve seen huge numbers of people

8:09

hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank very little media attention people driven from their homes in terms of just the general

8:16

context at home and that I mean is there do you think that’s plausible and do you think Israeli Society again would

8:22

generally approve of that it’s not a question because it is

8:27

happening it’s not like it is only a plan while we are speaking it is

8:33

happening and not only the West Bank don’t underestimate the plans about the Gaza

8:39

STP I don’t see that the northern part of the Gaza Strip will remain Palestinian of after this

8:46

war I will not exclude the possibility of settlement even there they have their

8:52

plans and trust them they know what they are doing they are devoted and the government and all the institutions of

8:59

the government are supporting their military police everything and same now obviously in the

9:05

West Bank smotri has a plan and it was just revealed

9:12

recently and don’t underestimate his capabilities because there is on one

9:19

hand total empathy about what’s going on in the West Bank and those who care are

9:24

only the settlers and they are ready to do anything and they’re doing anything I don’t know when you have been when have

9:30

you been Last Time in the West Bank but I go every week and from week to week I see new scenes there from week to week

9:38

it’s not something to be happened to to to for the future it’s something that is happening right now including many many

9:47

new outposts each Outpost means more land which will be

9:54

confiscated and finally it goes toward an annexation if not the legal one and

10:01

the factor one from my point of view the annexation happened long time ago by the

10:07

way I don’t think that anyone can reverse and make the West Bank

10:15

Palestinian again I don’t see how to make it because I mean the whole point of

10:20

vision about the disengagement so-called from Gaza was to the real jewel in the crown was the West Bank wasn’t it that

10:26

was the whole point for the Israeli withdrawal back nearly two decades ago it was to

10:32

cement the project to essentially Annex the West

10:37

Bank I don’t know I think that the main issue was that shaon

10:44

realized that Israel cannot hold the Gaza Strip the price will be too heavy

10:52

especially as you say if you want to maintain the West Bank and he decided

10:57

yes he decided to se sacrifice the Gaza Strip not for the sake of the Palestinians by all means not to

11:04

sacrifice the Gaza Strip sacrifice in terms of Israeli interest in order to

11:10

guarantee the control of the West Bank and this what happened you raised that respect to the

11:16

annexation of at least large parts of Gaza and when we say large parts of Gaza Gaza is a small strip of land it’s the

11:23

size of East London 2.2 million people before the War live there we have no

11:28

idea what the horrible clinical term excess death toes which takes into account not just those killed by direct

11:35

violence but there are thousands of cancer patients in Gaza who haven’t been treated I’m just throwing one example

11:41

into the into the mix in terms of how you know the general long-term death toll but do you think I mean we just had

11:49

this I’ll just say it a catastrophic performance by Joe Biden in the um debate against Donald Trump there’s a

11:56

presidential election that with June in the beginning of November it’s not long away do you think Netanyahu is just

12:02

waiting out for that US presidential election with a possible Trump victory

12:08

in which he thinks then he could get away with for example annexing large

12:14

parts of Gaza driving its po people out maybe Trump doing some sort of deal with

12:19

the Egyptian dictatorship to get some of them driven out into the Sinai desert I mean what do you think is there a kind

12:24

of there’s a holding pattern until the presidential election and then the full plan in Gaza can be

12:31

executed no doubt that net is really counting the days for the elections in

12:37

the United States because there is a chance that things

12:43

will be easier for Israel after even though Trump is unexpected and I

12:48

wouldn’t count on him on anything but yes from this point of view

12:54

the plant are very clear it is a wide

12:59

Zone security Zone separation zone along the entire Gaza

13:06

Strip and the South the northern part of the Gaza Strip will remain Israeli Jewish not

13:17

Palestinian that’s the plan by the way by the time we are talking they are

13:23

destroying in north in southern Lebanon systematically Villages and houses in

13:29

order to have this same security Zone also in Lebanon so it’s the same strategy which

13:36

by the way doesn’t guarantee any security for sure not in times of long

13:41

range missiles what does it mean 20 kilometers 10 kilom I mean it’s it’s

13:47

relevant only to certain kind of of weapons I I say the bottom line I don’t

13:53

see Israel leaving Gaza in the coming years and that’s a catastrophe by itself

13:58

but but before I ask you about Lebanon I mean just in terms of we discussed obviously a peace movement in Israel which once did exist non-existent in any

14:06

meaningful Mass form at least um when the we had that rescue operation in

14:13

which four Israeli hostages were um rescued about 300 Palestinians were

14:19

slaughtered including many kids um in the process has that just because obviously

14:25

you do have within Israeli Society those who will prioritize rescuing the hostages um

14:31

returning the hostages to their loved ones over wiping Gaza out off the face of the earth I mean there is at least

14:37

that contingent Israeli Society but has that been marginalized basically by that successful hostage deal which then

14:43

ironically means less hostages get saved because obviously the vast majority of

14:49

hostages are only ever going to get released by these prison exchange deals has that just basically that F

14:55

particularly the families of the hostages who’ve often been a moderating force on the Israeli government has that

15:00

just they’ just been you know any prospects of that deal now is just

15:06

dead yes but you describe reality as it

15:12

is most of Israelis don’t see reality as it is because it is being presented to

15:20

them introduced to them by the Israeli media who shows an entire different

15:26

picture you mentioned the release of the hostages which I mentioned also before

15:32

in Israeli eyes this was a h of a success Israel was in Euphoria for one

15:38

or two days it’s not that people were happy that 200 or 300 Palestinians were

15:43

killed they didn’t care about it it was so marginal that it was hardly

15:50

mentioned which in many ways is even worse it was hard to

15:55

mention it was only mentioned they even had the to call it a a surgeon very kic

16:07

operation a very precise one nothing to do with 300 or 200 people

16:15

who were killed I mean it is not in the discourse at all it’s very hard to describe it to people outside because

16:22

it’s hard to believe that that’s the discourse it’s hard to believe but take my word the discourse is totally

16:29

different than you imagine yourself and totally different that it should be or than it is in Europe United States or

16:36

elsewhere and therefore those question are not being raised at all but with

16:43

because obviously I would expect that obviously the Palestinian life it’s worth being completely ignored and marginalized I get that but I suppose

16:50

what I mean is before there is a sense of look if we’re going to get our hostages out we have to do a deal we don’t like it but that’s how you do it

16:57

does the success of getting four those I mean obviously no one’s talking about the Palestinian um f mass killings but

17:06

basically is there a sense of that’s how we get the hostages we go and and we we we’re going to rescue them we don’t need

17:12

to do a deal has that basically is that is that now the consensus not for the

17:19

families most of them most of them are clever enough to understand and they say

17:24

it again and again and they keep on saying it that only a deal will bring to the release of their beloved ones the

17:33

problem is that the hostages are not the political basis of this government it

17:39

became a political issue and therefore the government can totally ignore the

17:46

protest again and again I’m being asked does the protest risk the

17:53

government does it influence the government not at all they can to ignore it because in any

18:00

case that’s not their political basis almost most of them are not from their political basis would it be

18:07

seters taking hostages believe me they would have been already released months

18:13

ago months ago that’s not a political basis those

18:18

are kutnik leftists or or those I don’t know there

18:24

were obviously also good supporters among so many Israelis but they are not perceived

18:32

as Rivals to the is endangering the government because in any case they

18:38

wouldn’t Vote for This government and as you know finally so much is in decided

18:44

in Israel by domestic politics I mean I mean on that Benjamin

18:49

Netanyahu because clearly after the sth of October deeply unpopular um blamed

18:56

for the fact for the basic security failures which obviously led to a Mass

19:02

Slaughter So within Israeli Society there was a broad consensus it does strike me that he’s re

19:09

he’s clawed that back Ian there’s always been this mistaken narrative indulged here um in Europe in the United States

19:15

that the problem is Netanyahu and clearly that’s that’s not true that’s a very he’s a very convenient bogey man

19:20

but it strikes me that actually he’s outmaneuvered his opponents and he’s clawed back support within Israeli

19:28

Society certainly in a kind of you know keep hold of nurse for fear something

19:33

worse perhaps that’s the mentality of Israeli Society is that true is Benjamin Netanyahu is essentially outmaneuvered

19:39

his his opponent and Consolidated his his support in enough as of Israeli

19:46

society that if there were elections there’s a very good chance he’d end up being prime minister

19:51

again I couldn’t describe it better than you he is recovering he didn’t make it

19:59

yet but no doubt that he went a long way ever since the first weeks after the SS

20:05

in which it was clear that his career is over things look different and he has

20:12

many explanation it’s not only one explanation don’t forget that in front

20:18

of him against him around him there is no one the alternatives are so weak and

20:26

by the way not very different from him when it comes to core issues there is not a real

20:33

alternative yes the others would be more decent they will be less corrupted they

20:39

will behave in a more human way maybe at least to the hostages families and so

20:46

they will be very nice with the Americans they will even negotiate with

20:52

the PA but by the end of the day who who who who is the Alterna the ter

20:59

in Israel or the opposition in Israel supports this war supports the occupation supports the

21:06

aparte so what are we talking about so when the alternative is so weak and not

21:11

really an alternative and N has what nanyu has you

21:18

cannot undermine his capabilities and yes it might be don’t forget that he has

21:26

a whole operation he increased his power in

21:31

certain media Outlets which are quite influential which he didn’t a few years ago there

21:37

are now more and more Outlets which really serve him him personally even not

21:43

the right Wingers him personally in a very efficient way so the game is open

21:49

in Israel even if there will be elections people s recently that elections mean the end of his career not

21:57

not sure anymore I mean on that um there’s a certain type of political

22:03

tendency within Britain and elsewhere who are more focused on tone or Vibes if

22:08

you like than substance um so for example this is why you end up with a rehabilitation of George W bush uh

22:15

responsible for terrible terrible crimes um but suddenly he’s he’s less vulgar than Trump he doesn’t do these vulgar

22:22

embarrassing tweets for example he may have laid waste to Iraq gr Grant talo

22:28

All Is Forgiven is there a bit of a similarity there basically which is Netanyahu is’s just too crude and vulgar

22:34

and actually you replace him with someone else he would just continue the same approach but it would be less he’d

22:40

be less of an embarrassment almost but I mean that there’s no real divide within Israeli Politics the same policies would

22:48

continue the same colle the same view of collective punishment and Collective guilt for example would continue

22:53

absolutely I’m not sure that is vulgar that’s not the notice I mean Donald

23:00

Trump is vulgar no but corrupt I know what you mean exactly in in his cases he’s corrupt yeah but he is more

23:08

sophisticated and more educated and more knowledgeable and more impressive by the

23:13

way he’s good for yeah absolutely much more than Donald Trump or George W bush

23:21

but by the end of the day that’s the biggest weakness of Israeli society

23:27

today that it has no alternative plan except of the plan of the right

23:34

Wingers and then it doesn’t matter much who will be the Prime Minister when it

23:39

comes to the core issues and then also people say okay let it be net I

23:45

mean who else they don’t offer us any anything give me one thing that people

23:51

like guns La the even the the Zionist left what do

23:57

they suggest which much which will look different did one of them call to stop the war one of

24:04

them there is one of them ready for the two-state solution but ready to go for

24:10

it now is one of them even ready to bring the PA to togethera all kind of

24:15

ideas which I don’t support but at least it is a plan nothing so therefore we are facing

24:24

not only Nan we are facing a soci soety which will not be able to change in the

24:31

coming future without a real change in its leadership and this change is not

24:37

foreseen right not foreseen by any direction by any

24:44

candidate um the British government uh is about to be W wiped out essentially

24:49

in our parliamentary elections next Thursday it’s going to face a catastrophic Landslide defeat for pretty

24:56

obvious reasons it’s had a r ruinous for 14 years in power as a Parting Gift it

25:01

has intervened in the international criminal courts case uh well the chief prosecutors request for arrest warrants

25:07

against Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister yo Gallant uh in order to claim that the IC does not have

25:14

jurisdiction in Palestine um I mean I would imagine that that have no faith in the labor

25:20

government uh reversing that when they take power in a week’s time I mean I’m just the ICC that none

25:26

of I mean I’m just wondering just your general thoughts about what that represented um but within Israeli

25:33

Society in any case you know there’s that as suppos there that kind of this is just a big conspiracy against Israel

25:39

that would that’s the general just kind of gist isn’t it but but I’m interesting your thoughts about the British government intervening as well in order

25:46

to protect Netanyahu Gan and the Israeli state from claims of obviously well

25:53

grounded of crimes against humanity and war crimes I think the UK is only the first

25:59

one but not the last One MH I don’t see any Western European country maybe Spain

26:06

I don’t know maybe Ireland I don’t see anyone of them

26:12

collaborating with the with the resolution of the IC but but something

26:19

must be said it changed the atmosphere even if we are not expected

26:26

to see neither n no guns being brought to Justice in the he

26:33

I don’t see it happening but it change something in the

26:38

atmosphere and you know every time something is happening people ask me do

26:43

you think this will make a change no nothing will make a change and still

26:50

it’s incremental I mean more and more and more developments more and more

26:56

changes in the international atmosphere in the international climate which

27:03

finally something will bring a change but we are not there yet so neither the

27:09

I icj nor the ICC will change the picture not the recognition of one 140

27:16

States in Palestine including recently two more European

27:23

countries none of this will make the change will be a game Cher

27:28

but finally the the atmosphere is changing and unfortunately it is changing only outside and not inside

27:37

Israel Lebanon I wanted to talk about Lebanon um I mean the statements from Yo

27:43

Galan a for mentioned there obviously there’s an attempt by the chief prosecut of the ICC to well have him arrested uh

27:50

for crimes against humanity and war cries um he’s I guess the statements amount to in terms of Lebanon and

27:58

Hezbollah nice country you’ve got there shame if something happened to it um

28:03

Talk of we don’t want to but we have the capability of reducing sending Lebanon

28:09

back to the Stone Age I Googled that he’s it’s a phrase he’s used before repeatedly in fact before the 7th of

28:14

October yo Gallant has menacingly spoken about returning Lebanon to the Stone Age

28:20

I mean that’s implicitly a genocidal acts clearly certainly would involve a

28:25

Litany of war crimes how serious you think it is with Lebanon because actually hezbo is not Hamas um and

28:34

obviously we’ve seen throughout Hezbollah because you know and they Justified based on on on on Gaza but I

28:42

mean they they have the potential capacity to overwhelm Israel’s air defenses so it’s just not the same thing

28:48

at all what do you think would what do you think would happen do you think actually Israel doesn’t actually want that confrontation for that reason

28:55

because it’s nothing like Hamas or do you think it’s inevitable at this point the key is in

29:02

Gaza and people tend to ignore it his as usual was very clear stop the

29:10

war in Gaza and we will stop the war in Lebanon or in the

29:15

Galilee but Israel is not ready to stop the war in Gaza and therefore the fight

29:21

must be over stopping the war in Gaza which is a

29:26

precondition for in the war in the North again I I can hardly understand my

29:33

fellow Israelis the dangers are really screaming from the

29:39

walls war with bala can be a real catastrophe not only in the north but in

29:45

the place that I’m sitting now in the center in the north part of Tel Aviv

29:51

which is peaceful and life is as usual almost as usual here this will not

29:57

continue continue if there will be a war with his Bal and still there is this

30:03

sense of apathy okay no other choice we have to fight also in Lebanon we have

30:09

nothing there’s no way to to stop it there’s no solution a war will be a

30:15

solution you you ask people okay there will be a war what do you think will be after

30:20

this what will be you will gain exactly and Achieve exactly what you achieved in

30:27

Gaza namely nothing you will only lose and here the sense of aathy of

30:37

fatalism no other choice we have to fight we have to show them we have to

30:43

to get some returns I mean all kind of really rubbish which are put in the mind

30:50

of people here and nobody stops for a moment asking just a second it’s our

30:56

sons it’s our lives are we really ready and the answer is

31:01

yes but I wonder if what your thoughts about this there’s actually a crisis

31:07

there in that as things stand I mean in it reported this week that in the first

31:13

six months since 7 of October over half a million Israelis left the country and

31:19

this is a population of N and a half million that’s a very substantial chunk of the population and obviously the

31:26

Israeli project is B based on the idea of the so-called right to return it’s

31:31

based on the idea this is a sanctuary for the Jewish people you know obviously

31:37

it would be much safer to be in the United States for example or in a European country than than Israel just

31:42

objectively um but actually I mean isn’t that a potential danger that you end up for example if if that’s if that’s half

31:49

a million since you know Visa Gaza if you have that kind of armed

31:56

confrontation with Hezbollah just a lot of Israelis may just vote with their feet even if they don’t

32:03

actually even if they feel and they’ll still could they might not change the political views what do you think I mean could that actually unravel the Israeli

32:10

project to a degree just just by by net migration becoming you know depleting

32:15

the population no but it will change the face of

32:22

Israel because who leaves leaves anyone who first of all car live not everyone can

32:29

live this is quite a luxury to relocate not everyone can live not everyone can

32:35

find this place in another place not everyone can find the job and not everyone can get even the the the the

32:41

immigration papers for in another place it’s not so easy half a million left is a little bit

32:49

a misleading figure because you never know how many of them will come back after the war or

32:56

not so it is it is I don’t ignore I don’t underestimate this figure but what

33:01

strikes me much more is the atmosphere and the atmosphere is of many many people mainly young people asking what

33:09

do we do here are we really going to raise our children here do we want to stay here what are the Alternatives you

33:16

hear it everywhere the the the the the side Guist right now of at least

33:25

the Young Generation is we have to find ourself an alternative like never before

33:30

by the way I am old enough to remember in the 60s when the joke was that in the

33:37

benguan airport there is a sign please the last one please turn off the light

33:43

yeah I we are not there we are not there Israel will

33:48

not uh get empty from its Jewish citizens it will just not happen I mean

33:55

it might be a wishful thinking for some but it will not happen but it Israel will and is already changing its face

34:04

into something else not what we knew and for sure not what we wish to know and

34:10

those who will stay will be the religious the Orthodox the militants the

34:16

extremists those who believe in the biblical right of Israel to be here

34:22

those who believe in living on a sword and all the rest will great gradually

34:28

not in one way it doesn’t happen those are processes but those who believe in

34:35

different life in normal life in realizing that there are two peoples

34:41

here not only one those will gradually live yes or at least are planning to live which is bad

34:48

enough if you start to plan to live it shows that your commitment to this place

34:53

gets weaker and weaker and it will have many many

34:58

consequences because you can see I mean Hungary is an example of a very reactionary regime and a lot of the more

35:04

progressively minded younger people have just left and obviously that’s emboldened the reactionary forces back

35:10

home in Hungary so you can see a similar process the more progressively minded Israeli citizens leaving and then the

35:16

growth the ever I guess ascendency of of of the most extreme elements I just want

35:22

to end nobody

35:28

questions that if Hungary will exist in 100 years or 50 years of course yeah

35:34

this question is being raised here that’s a big difference nobody raises

35:40

the question if Hungary will exist in 100 years many ask now the questions

35:45

will Israel exist in 50 years what kind of is and what kind of isra I mean

35:51

because before I before I was going to ask my last questions that’s a really good point I want to ask you about that as well which is

35:58

because actually I mean I I I the way this could pan out is actually you know

36:05

quite disturbing in in in Hugh way because obviously ideally you want a land shared on the basis of equality and

36:11

justice by by all those S by all its citizens uh that land belongs to belongs

36:16

to all who live there um but you have now a kind of you know Israeli Society

36:21

bubbling over and impunity has allowed that to happen I mean this is a case

36:27

study of what happens when you have a society which is overwhelmed by you know

36:32

sentiments which are often pretty genocidal I would say but there’s nothing to keep it in check um it’s

36:38

armed and backed by a superpower so there’s there’s nothing really to to keep that in check it doesn’t it doesn’t

36:45

look sustainable I have to say I don’t think this sort of mentality is is indefinitely sustainable not least

36:50

because public opinion of the West is changing anyway not least in the United States not least I would say amongst the

36:56

generation of younger Jewish Americans who are playing a very leading role in the Pro Palestine movement in the United

37:01

States so I mean I’m just interested in that is is there no you know could it kick in eventually a kind of this isn’t

37:08

sustainable and actually you know this could end up with the catastrophic

37:14

collapse of the Israeli projects a lot I mean even things like fact is like Egypt it’s just taken for as read that Egypt

37:20

will be indefinitely run by what is actually at the moment an extremely unpleasant dictatorship which is backed

37:26

and armed by the West itself which is pliant but things can change that’s the point I don’t know what do

37:32

you think is there a sense of you know at least creeping insecurity that you know if we C if some will say well

37:39

actually that’s why we have to behave like this that’s why we’re going to be violently expansionist but is there not SAA voices

37:45

which might think well that’s not sustainable um and this could end up with a cat long-term

37:53

catastrophe so that’s exactly the division line in Israel Society right now those who think that it’s not

38:01

sustainable for long time and those who think that because it is so dangerous we

38:07

should do whatever we doing we are doing now that it is an existential War for

38:14

example so you have the two sides of the same coin the only the conclusions are

38:23

opposite those who say it’s not sustainable and therefore let’s start to

38:29

consider going somewhere else and those who say this is not sustainable so

38:36

therefore let’s become really crazy and do anything possible to save this

38:42

country by force by Power by by violating any International laws by mass

38:49

killings by genocide by anything because we are living on our existence and that’s a very interesting

38:57

point because both parties see the picture the same they only draw

39:02

different conclusions out of it the problem is that we should remember that

39:08

those things take decades those are processes and we always try to see what

39:15

will be I mean after the war will Israel stop to exist in 10 years will Israel

39:21

turn no it is long processes which are already happening

39:28

it’s not like we Israel today is really in turmoil and things are bubbling

39:34

within the Israeli Society much more than we can even admit it but the

39:40

question is how will it end and if there will be no alternative leadership which

39:46

I don’t see if there will be no reset or restart for the zionis

39:53

project then sooner or later this will be over and something else I

39:59

don’t say Israel will stop to exist I don’t share this view because Israel is still by

40:05

far stronger richer and more supported by the West than any other country in

40:11

the Middle East and there and this will not change so quickly we know how the United States is changing its policies

40:19

very very slowly it will take decades but meanwhile Israel is changing

40:25

itself from within it’s becoming obviously for people like me a less less

40:32

place that you would like to live in or for sure to raise your children or

40:37

grandchildren and you hear this this you hear it not from dients like me you hear

40:44

it from mainstream Israelis young Israelis we don’t see our future here we

40:51

don’t want our children to to grow into this you see now soldiers which are

40:56

removed after nine months in Gaza then move them now to Lebanon did you achieve

41:02

something in Gaza no will you achieve something in Lebanon no but we go you

41:07

know in a certain stage this will break because people are I mean even I I’m

41:14

shocked that it didn’t happen yet but I know that those things take time we are

41:20

not aiming at the good at a good direction I can tell you only one thing I cannot think about a a a a a a

41:28

promising scenario about an optimistic scenario for Israel I cannot see it with whom with whom exactly with whom will

41:36

come the change only with a massive intervention of the International Community which I don’t see happening as

41:44

well well just finally I actually want to ask about you if you don’t mind me doing so

41:51

because you know I’ve always been interested you know throughout history individuals who speak out when it’s

41:56

extremely difficult to do so swim against the current um I I know you reported I mean you said someone came up

42:02

to you and called you a traitor I think this was um a little while ago but I’m just interested in just the atmosphere

42:09

for someone like yourself speaking out within the context of Israeli Society often progressives like myself living in Britain where we’ve had you know we have

42:16

we have our we have our political problems difficulties and the United States even worse it which is often hope

42:21

lies with the young for example I mean younger younger people are far more Progressive in other Western countries

42:26

that’s not true that’s not true in Italy for example um in Brazil bolsonaro’s

42:32

strongest support came from Millennial men so it’s not as you know it’s not a universal rule Israeli Society younger

42:38

people are more militaristic and more reactionary than their older Generations

42:43

you know you’ve seen I’ve seen footage of teachers Bas basically nearly getting lynched by their pupils because they’ve

42:49

spoken out in support of peace or something mild I mean in terms of you what kind of pressure you under I mean

42:54

do you do do do you fear violence for example you fear the threat of um you

42:59

know do does your security worry when you speak out in these in these in these ways not until now 2014 was much more

43:08

violent and I don’t have the explanation except of maybe the explanation either

43:15

that I got older or that the social media is replacing the violence and the

43:21

violence is there and not in the streets but except of this I don’t have an

43:27

explanation I and you know you might feel very secure and you are in danger and you might be very in danger and feel

43:34

secure it’s it’s not always expected the same thing by the way with my I I

43:41

continue to travel every week to the West Bank this is also not very secure on the other hand last week I was in the

43:48

Janine refugee camp and and armed people directed their gun with me when they

43:53

heard that I’m Jewish they were such in such a shock that the Jew there to enter

43:59

the camp that it took them some time before they shot until they realize that

44:06

it’s not the Jew they know but in any case ER I still feel free and safe I

44:14

must tell you was all not always very pleasant but I still feel feel really

44:22

free and safe it’s not only about safety it’s also about the possibility to express you views and in both cases

44:29

being a Jew in a real liberal democracy for the Jews which has many cracks now

44:37

many many cracks I know for sure that this should not be taken for

44:43

granted and you see the changes even in this I’m not sure that I will give you the same answer in half a year but I can

44:51

tell you yeah because that’s the other point which you alluded to that the self censor you know do we do do we sometimes

44:57

not say what we think because we fear the consequences it sounds like I mean you’d never come across like someone who self sensors no but but but we are

45:05

reaching it we are reaching it just F ter of what GES to see because I know

45:11

looking for Hope in the current context is difficult but the reason I’m just interest what you think about this the left as I understand the left as I was

45:17

raised in the left the left would not exist without the contribution of progressive G through history one of the

45:22

reasons anti-semites would often Target G’s particularly in the first half of the 20th C was because of the

45:28

disproportionate Jewish contribution to movements of liberation of of of of

45:33

emancipation um and that STS me that’s because you had a Jewish diaspora in many different countries who understood

45:40

the danger of nationalism because when countries became more nationalistic it was often Jewish people

45:47

who ended up being the targets they were seen as Interlopers aliens um disloyal

45:53

to the nation they existed a good example was France dur the draf Affair for example uh but that was always a

45:59

recurring theme in in Russia in in zaris Russia and so on and and it stries me that what Israel tried to do is teach uh

46:07

the the the conclusion was we have to be nationalistic like them we need our own nationalism uh to defend ourselves but

46:14

the consequences are very similar obviously for minorities just as it was for Jewish people in in those different

46:20

countries but but I mean that International lives on you can see it in Britain you can see it in you know the

46:25

United States you know 39% of young Jews in America think that Israel is

46:31

committing genocide against the Palestinian people if I was an Israeli leader I’d be worried about those

46:37

figures if you get a generation of younger Jewish Americans so I just think what do you think that tradition lives

46:42

on and actually it lives on in the United States of all places and that could be How This Ends because they will

46:49

build power and pressure within the United States not just Jewish Americans other Americans of course as well but

46:55

they’re saying this isn’t in our name what do you think is that that Jewish tradition will is being reborn elsewhere

47:02

and and that will help end this nightmare so first of

47:09

all we were brought up in a very nationalistic State without knowing that

47:15

we are brought up in a very nationalistic and militaristic state by the way the first years maybe were even

47:23

worse than now the only difference was that we were to unaware we were brought up into this we

47:30

were born into this if I look now in in in my

47:36

childhood I mean this was in many ways North Korea without feeling in North Korea not

47:43

in terms of Freedom by the way no but in terms of recruiting the Young Generation for a

47:52

collective National goal or goals

47:57

this was unbelievable when I look at my childhood I can’t believe how did we

48:02

where we brought up in this atmosphere feeling that we are a small island in an

48:09

ocean of enemies and everything we were told about

48:14

our David being David against goad and so many other things so and but it was

48:22

made in a different way and it was covered up much better than now

48:27

now yes Israel is turning into nationalism like never before in in in

48:34

the more aggressive and brutal nationalism because na nationalism must

48:40

not necessarily become so aggressive and violent and must not

48:47

necessarily be so blind to the other people surround you you might think that

48:53

you are the best one you might think you are the chosen people people and still leave some room for the others Israel

49:01

does not leave any room for the others this is one aspect the other

49:08

aspect is what you have asked about the Jewish community in the in the world but don’t forget that young Israelis are

49:14

quite disconnected from the Jewish World from the Jewish World Jewish communities

49:20

outside it’s quite artificial this connection what do you think a soldier

49:26

in G now feels or has in common with a with a Jewish student in in Colombia

49:33

even if he’s Jewish so what I mean there’s not so much in common much less

49:39

than you okay we are celebrating the same holiday they are Americans we are

49:44

Israelis with all the meanings to it and most of us are also secular so what do I

49:50

have in common with them what should be in mind and is not in mind is that those

49:55

demonstrators in Harvard and in Colombia are the next Pentagon and the next state

50:01

department and the next presidents of the United States they will all come

50:06

from this generation the only problem is you are smiling because younger than me you have

50:12

the time to waste for it and I I was crossing my fingers I was crossing my fingers exactly I’m crossing my fingers

50:19

as well but I will not see it and you will for you will witness it I will not

50:24

witness it because it will take time a lot of time and here you have a very optimistic

50:30

ending cannot be better than this I know and you know what it’s it’s it’s it’s

50:35

not always the way we do these interviews often we end off in in the most despairing moment so this this is

50:43

this is a first this is a world exclusive we have a positive ending from gide lovey thank you very much um

50:49

seriously gide it’s always such a pleasure um so much Insight you are you know I know you say you don’t you just

50:55

you don’t worry about it but you you are an extremely courageous voice and you know moral you know the pressure that

51:01

you face within Israeli Society just by virtue of being such an isolated voice is is is obviously immense um thank you

51:09

thank you but um I really appreciate it please like And subscribe everyone uh do share this video but Gideon thank you so

51:15

so much as ever for your wisdom thank you very much

oooooo