Palestina, erresilientzia (32)

Mark Flowerchild #MMT #RealProgressives@MarkFabian21

Rep. Brian Mast@RepBrianMast

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806329566215938058

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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Pelham@Resist_05

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806090055104295151

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Victor vicktop55@vicktop55

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806259999645053333

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Iran Observer@IranObserver0

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Abier@abierkhatib

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806321183794626886

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Sony Thang@nxt888

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Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur oPt@FranceskAlbs

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UNRWA@UNRWA

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ADAM@AdameMedia

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1805839277776900207

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Pelham@Resist_05

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806223412744089788

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Chay Bowes@BowesChay·

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806211939799798221

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Afshin Rattansi@afshinrattansi

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806292912029708668

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Max Blumenthal@MaxBlumenthal

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806177589502804249

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806211409623007435

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Gabe@GabeZZOZZ

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806209244867211696

Two weeks ago Bolivia improved relations with Russia.

And … COUP x.com/mylordbebo/sta…

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806226418646339864

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Tiberius@ecomarxi

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806326365794509042

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Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

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Tucker Carlson@TuckerCarlson

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806372267146051738

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1806341257175728462

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XD LAW@XDlawyers

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Jeremy Corbyn@jeremycorbyn

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eka. 27

BRICS to Launch Gold-Backed Currency at 2024 Summit? https://watcher.guru/news/brics-gold-backed-currency-to-launch-at-2024-summit

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(https://jacobin.com/2023/04/helen-keller-socialism-disability-socialist-party )

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The Democracy Report Card, June 28, 2024

(https://scottritter.substack.com/p/the-democracy-report-card-june-28?r=1vhv3f&triedRedirect=true)

Scott Ritter

Jun 28, 2024

Iranians vote in the 2024 presidential election (left); Trump and Biden at the CNN debate (right)

A Democratic Republic and Islamic Theocracy put their respective democratic systems on full display for the world. In one, democracy emerged victorious. In the other, two geriatrics embarrassed themselves.

The American presidential “silly season” has been in full swing for more than a year and a half. Former President Donald Trump announced his candidacy on November 15, 2022. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. did the same on April 5, 2023, followed by the incumbent, Joe Biden, on April 25, 2023. A score or more of other persons who announced their candidacies have since withdrawn from the race. A few remain who aren’t serious contenders. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been raised and spent by these candidates and their supporters. More than a billion dollars will be spent before this race is finished. Money, more than politics, is the litmus test for American democracy—if you have it, you can throw your hat into the ring. Without it, you have no chance.

Scott will discuss this article and answer audience questions on Ep. 172 of Ask the Inspector.

Iran lost its President, Ebrahim Raisi, in a tragic helicopter crash on May 19, 2024. Under the Iranian Constitution, a new election had to be organized within 50 days; Iran announced that the election would be held on June 28, 2024. The Guardian Council, under the Iranian Constitution, evaluated several candidates, including former President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who had indicated their interest in running for the vacant seat. Six candidates were deemed qualified (Ahmadinejad was not one of them). The principal factor considered by the Guardian Council when approving a candidate is their adherence to the Islamic values of the Islamic Republic of Iran. Money does not factor into their consideration at all.

The Iranian Presidential campaign season ran from June 12 through June 27. During this time, five televised debates were held where all candidates were provided an equal opportunity to respond to questions and articulate their respective positions on the issues of the day. Two candidates eventually withdrew from the race, leaving four—the speaker of the parliament, Mohammad Ghalibaf, the former nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, a reformist, Masoud Pezeshkian, and Mostafa Pourmohammadi, a former Minister of Justice.

On June 27, CNN held the first of two scheduled debates between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., was not permitted to participate. There was no live audience, and the moderators of the debate were able to silence the microphones of the participants to prevent disruptions from either candidate. One candidate looked as if he was more suited to a retirement home. The other showed a disturbing inability to tell the truth. Neither did their nation proud.

On June 28 the people of Iran went to the polls. Voting was extended until midnight to accommodate those eligible voters who wanted to cast their votes.

There are parts of the world where democracy thrives.

And then there is the United States.

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Israel’s Global Isolation: International Decisions in the Wake of Israel’s War on Gaza

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/live/qNgX4u_QOSg

Experts discuss Israel’s international isolation in the wake of its war on Gaza. Speakers included Ahmed Abofoul, Senior Legal Research and Advocacy Officer at ‎Al-Haq, Susan Akram, Professor at Boston University School of Law, Tahani Mustafa, Senior Palestine Analyst at the International Crisis Group, and Yousef Munayyer, Head of the Palestine/Israel program at Arab Center Washington DC.

Transkripzioa:

0:13

head of the Palestine Israel program uh here at the Arab Center uh and thank you

0:19

so much uh for joining us uh for this webinar uh panel entitled Israel’s

0:25

Global isolation International decisions in the wake of the Gaza

0:32

War Israel’s brutal war on Gaza now in its ninth month has shocked the

0:38

conscience of much of the world during this time several International

0:44

decisions have been made against the Israeli government contributing to its International isolation including at the

0:51

international court of justice which is hearing a genocide case brought by uh

0:57

the uh nation of South Africa uh which has been joined by many other countries

1:03

uh as well as by the international criminal court whose prosecutor has

1:08

applied for arrest warrants for Israeli leaders including the Israeli Prime Minister and minister of defense and

1:16

also Decisions by European states which have recognized a Palestinian State for

1:22

the first time last month Norway Ireland uh and Spain on the same day announced

1:29

their recognition of Palestine and it came in the same week as the icc’s

1:35

announcement uh of an application for uh arrest warrants as well as Decisions by

1:41

the international court of justice highlighting just how much Israel’s war

1:46

on Gaza has hurt its International standing we’ve convened this panel of

1:52

experts to discuss the impact of these decisions in the long and short term but

1:57

what do they foreshadow about the future and how have Israel and its allies responded to them how have Palestinians

2:05

and others responded how what how might we see International decisions evolve

2:11

from here how can International actors with limited leverage over Israel best

2:16

contribute to peace Justice and accountability we’re very fortunate to

2:23

have this panel to talk through these questions and more uh today uh for

2:28

today’s convers ation we’ll begin with about 10 to 12 minutes of remarks from

2:33

each panelist followed by uh moderators questions and then a question and answer

2:39

session with you and our audience uh please note that you don’t need to wait until the Q&A portion to submit your

2:46

questions for this morning’s speakers you can send in your questions at any time using the Q&A feature in Zoom or

2:54

via email to events at Arab Center dc.org

3:00

now in the interest of time I want to move directly to briefly introducing our guests now in the order that they will

3:06

be presenting their introductory uh remarks and then beginning our uh discussion uh Susan Akram is a professor

3:15

at boson University School of Law Ahmed Abu fu is international lawyer

3:21

and senior legal research and advocacy officer at alhak a human rights

3:26

organization based in Palestine and to Mustafa senior Palestine analyst the

3:32

international crisis group Daniel Levy who was scheduled to join us unfortunately cannot be with us this

3:39

morning due to unforeseen circumstances but we look forward to having him uh at

3:44

another time we welcome all of you thank you for being with us today uh Susan the

3:50

mic is yours thank you so much for inviting me uh Yousef and the Arab center it’s

3:57

always a pleasure to share the con ation with you and I think the first order of

4:03

business is to briefly set out the legal framework under which the international courts have been engaged on the question

4:11

of genocide and related International crimes genocide is of course the among

4:17

the gravest of international crimes that include crimes against humanity

4:22

aggression and war crimes genocide is defined in the 1948 genocide convention

4:29

which has been ratified by 153 States as well as in the Rome

4:34

statute of the international criminal court which has been ratified by 124

4:40

States the definition of genocide is the same in both treaties it is the

4:46

intentional destruction in whole or in part of any national ethnic religious or

4:52

racial group through specific acts and these acts are killing members of the

4:58

group causing serious bodily or mental harm deliberately inflicting conditions

5:03

of Life designed to bring about the group’s physical destruction imposing measures intended to prevent births or

5:11

forcibly transferring children of this group to another group now there are two

5:16

important points to make about genocide as a universal crime in order to understand the International court of

5:23

justice and the international criminal court cases first it’s what’s called a use

5:29

code prohibition meaning that no state can derogate from it or suspend its

5:35

application for any reason second genocide triggers urga omnis obligations

5:42

meaning that it places obligations on all states parties to act and to prevent

5:49

and punish genocide crimes So based on these obligations under the genocide

5:55

convention South Africa filed a case on December 29th of last year in the

6:00

international court of justice the icj claiming that Israel’s prosecution of

6:06

its war on Gaza after October 7th amounted to genocide after extensive pleadings and

6:12

oral arguments the icj issued provisional measures first on January 23rd of this year on South Africa’s

6:20

claim now provisional measures for those who aren’t familiar are akin to

6:25

preliminary injunctions in domestic courts there issued on the basis of Prim

6:31

aasa or preliminary findings before a full hearing on the merits of a claim in

6:37

its January 26 precautionary measures the icj found that it was plausible that

6:43

Israel is committing genocidal acts and that elements of the genocide convention

6:48

have been met it ordered Israel to stop its military from killing causing

6:55

serious bodily or mental harm and inflicting a deliberately conflicting

7:00

conditions of Life calculated to bring about physical destruction of Palestinians in Gaza it also ordered

7:08

Israel to stop direct and public incitement to genocide and urgently allow all basic services and

7:15

humanitarian assistance to be delivered to gazin on March 28th after South

7:21

Africa returned again to the court with additional evidence the icj reiterated

7:26

its prior precautionary measures giving more more specificity to its orders to immediately and unconditionally open all

7:34

border crossings and allow unlimited humanitarian Aid to Gaza including food

7:40

water fuel medical and other necessities and then again for a third time on May

7:46

24th the court ordered Israel to immediately halt its military offensive

7:52

in Rafa open the Rafa Crossing for unimpeded Aid and allow access to Gaza

7:58

of an investig ative body to determine evidence of genocide now in a separate case

8:05

Nicaragua instituted proceedings against Germany at the icj in March for Germany’s support for Israel claiming

8:13

that Germany is facilitating the commission of genocide by providing arms to Israel in violation of the genocide

8:20

convention the icga declined to issue provisional measures in that case but it

8:25

did not throw out Nicaragua’s case as Germany had requested so that case is also ongoing meanwhile

8:33

on May 20th the ICC the criminal court special prosecutor Karim Khan announced

8:40

that he had requested arrest warrants for three Hamas principles and for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and

8:47

Minister of Defense Galant the charges against uh hamas’s Muhammad da isma

8:54

hania and yah Yahya sinir include murder hostage taking sexual violence and

9:00

torture as either war crimes or crimes against humanity while the charges

9:06

against Netanyahu and Galant are on starvation willful killing targeting of

9:12

civilians extermination and murder as war crimes and crimes against humanity

9:17

now it’s important to note that genocide is not among the crimes against Netanyahu and Galant at least so far

9:24

though it’s important to note that the evidence of many of these charges as war crimes or crimes against humanity will

9:31

also prove elements of genocide conversely much of the evidence developed in the icj cases will also

9:39

support the ICC charges there are many unresolved issues in the requests for

9:44

warrants as far as the charges have been made public which will have to be addressed as Khan presents his evidence

9:50

to the pre-trial chamber however these warrant requests have come after years

9:56

of the ICC prosecutors sitting on claims by Palestine of war crimes since

10:03

2019 in June in a separate event the un’s independent Commission of inquiry

10:09

on the occupied territories issued its latest report finding that Israel is responsible for war crimes and crimes

10:16

against humanity in Gaza and that Palestinian armed groups are responsible for war crimes committed in Israel the

10:23

commission also called on Israel to immediately stop its military operations and attacks in Gaza

10:30

including the assault on Rafa finally there’s also a request for an advisory

10:35

opinion pending at the icj that was submitted on January 9th of last year by

10:41

the general assembly on the legality of Israel’s ongoing occupation of the occupied territories and its actions

10:48

against Palestinians including the denial of self-determination the icj is likely to

10:54

issue its advisory opinion on this request fairly soon perhaps this summer

11:00

while the outcome of the two contentious cases is unlikely for several years both

11:05

contentious cases and the advisory opinion depending on the final decisions but even now with the precautionary

11:13

measures have far-reaching consequences a finding of genocide or

11:18

the possibility that genocide is occurring triggers as I said obligations

11:23

on all other states to take steps to stop it and ensure non-c complicity

11:30

the genocide report that my clinic and other human rights clinics have published ends with a review of what

11:36

this means to the world community of States stop all Aid and assistance to

11:41

Israel’s military operations refrain from dealings with Israel that imply its actions are legal and punish Israeli

11:49

principles who are ordering or engaging in genocidal acts so I’ll end with just

11:54

saying there’s no doubt that the icj and the ICC cases are major development in

12:00

the efforts to end Israel’s impunity for decades long crimes against the Palestinians and that there is a chance

12:07

now that international law can deliver some measure of Justice despite the impass from the political bodies of the

12:14

UN the security Council and the general

12:20

assembly thank you Susan before we move on to Ahmed I do want to just ask you sort of a follow-up question if you can

12:27

um uh elaborate on it a little bit um you know obviously we know there are

12:33

consequences if decisions are finally issued in some of these contentious cases that can take a very long time we

12:39

don’t know how long it will take but it can take a long time I don’t think there’s any expectation that anything is

12:44

is imminent um but what what are sort of the legal obligations of other states

12:49

and what can and should they do now before those final decision decisions are issued what um uh what yeah what

12:58

obligations do they have and um what’s happening what’s not happening and what

13:03

should be happening uh yes well the first obligation is to cease all arms and

13:11

weapons related supplies to Israel that’s very clear and that’s clear from the uh provisional measures it’s also

13:18

clear from the um from the fact that the icj has continued the uh Nicaragua

13:26

versus Germany case um that it hasn’t dismissed it that there’s a claim there

13:31

and that is precisely on the issue of complicity by supplying arms uh now

13:37

individual states have already begun taking measures and Civil Society

13:43

particularly uh um legal groups have filed lawsuits and Ahmed can say more

13:49

about the one in the Netherlands um to challenge their own States sending of arms and uh weapons

13:56

related supplies so I think those cases are going to multiply um we I believe this earlier

14:05

this week um um South Korea issued

14:11

warrants against principles Israeli principles um so that is a second form

14:18

of action to build on the provisional measures of finding of gen genocidal

14:24

acts to have domestic courts um begin to issue warrants and to

14:32

take up claims against war criminals uh the other most important perhaps at this

14:38

stage measure is uh ceasing diplomatic relations with Israel and a number of

14:44

states have already done that uh and then the final really important step is

14:51

uh the institution of a sanctions regime uh now individual states have uh have

14:57

actually taken some steps steps on sanctions against particular for example settler

15:03

groups um but in terms of the kind of sanctions regime that we saw uh against

15:10

the aparte regime in South Africa that remains to be done but I know yesterday

15:15

or the day before South Africa actually announced that it was going to have a global conference in May about how to

15:23

trigger a a global sanctions regime to build on the work that was done

15:29

uh against uh apartheid South Africa and just one more followup from my end so you know obviously um the the

15:37

the icj and the ICC you know different countries have different relations with those those different groups some

15:43

countries have accepted the Rome statute and and you know recognized the the the

15:49

role of the ICC and others uh obviously don’t like the United States for example

15:55

um but but uh the icj is is different in that uh regard um are we seeing some sort of a um

16:03

different response from uh the countries based on sort of those uh relationships

16:09

are we seeing sort of more adherence to the icj’s decisions uh than uh the the

16:16

icc’s you know this week we saw the Israeli defense minister who you know we obviously saw an application for an

16:23

arrest warrant for him from the the ICC welcomed here with great Fanfare in uh in Washington

16:29

uh DC um do do we see different behavior from from States in this regard based on

16:34

their relationship with these different International entities yes I mean of course there there seem to now the world

16:41

is divided into two camps and that is the Israeli supportive Camp which is a

16:46

smaller and smaller group of states but they are the powerful states and the ones that hold the veto power at the

16:53

security Council uh the US seems to have unwavering support for Israel as does

17:01

Germany um but I think in Europe the support for Israel is

17:07

crumbling uh as more and more states are recognizing Palestine and distancing themselves from the um both diplomatic

17:14

and weapons support for Israel uh the vast majority of the populations and the

17:21

members of the general assembly are uh of course have voted again and again for

17:27

ceasefire um and for an end to Aid in Israel um so without a doubt there there

17:34

are these two camps and uh that creates this impass that we have in the

17:40

political bodies at the uh at the United Nations now having said that uh as I

17:47

said individual countries can take their own steps to issue warrants to uh Target

17:54

both principles and individuals who are who they have evidence are committing

17:59

war crimes genocidal acts and as I began uh our discussion what’s really

18:06

important is that the vast majority of the countries of the world are states parties to the genocide convention so

18:12

whatever the international court of justice says about third state responsibility is going to be binding on

18:20

all those States thank you very much Susan uh we

18:26

will now turn to uh Ahmed F from alhak who joins us from the the ha in the

18:32

Netherlands uh Ahmed floor is yours uh thank you Yousef and thanks for

18:39

the um um Arab Center in DC for the kind invitation um it’s pleasure to to be

18:46

with you today and with the distinguished um speakers it’s also a pleasure to speak on behalf of alhak the

18:52

oldest um Palestinian human rights organization um in the region uh um

18:59

perhaps I would start a bit with um um some introduction about Al hak’s work

19:05

and explaining alhak uh uh mandate hak is an independent Palestinian

19:11

non-governmental human rights organization based in rala and the Ws bank and um it was established in

19:18

1979 and it’s mandated to protect and promote the human rights and the rule of law in the occupied Palestinian

19:25

territory so we conduct legal research uh draft legal reports studies um

19:32

provide interventions um uh and uh document of

19:38

course human rights and international humanitarian law violations in the occupied Palestinian territory we also

19:45

undertake advocacy before local Regional and international bodies this includes

19:51

of course Communications to the IC position papers on the icj were were

19:57

relevant in different proceedings submissions to the UN different organs including to the Human Rights Council

20:04

mechanisms um of course including the uh special rurs and the special proced

20:10

procedure of the Human Rights Council and the commission of inqu on the situation in Palestine so in doing so we

20:17

document violations of individuals um of the of the individual and Collective rights of the Palestinian

20:24

people irrespective of the identity of the perpetrator um and we seek to end

20:30

such preaches and and and provide accountability for such uh crimes before

20:36

National and international mechanisms and aim to hold these perpetrators U

20:41

accountable so therefore we also engage and strategic litigation cases in different domestic uh legal systems um

20:50

including on accountability for international crimes business and human rights and corporate responsibility um just to explain alh

20:58

alhak Vision on how we um approach international law in addition to our

21:03

engagement with International instit institutions we believe that of the

21:08

necessity of having so to say a bottom up approach in international law uh

21:14

we’ve always believed of um people L legal work where it’s uh victims and

21:20

survivors um centered their um perspectives are being uh Amplified and

21:27

I think the need for such an approach is more evident than ever now especially in

21:33

this age of um Western governments complicity and full-fledged support for

21:39

this uh genocide we’re seeing Civil Society organizations around the world um have been challenging these uh

21:47

governments from within uh their legal systems atak we have taken legal action

21:53

in a number of states uh including in the US we have a case together with

21:59

defense for children Palestine um and uh several um individuals where um we are

22:08

being represented by the center for constitutional rights in the US and this is a case against um Biden Lincoln and

22:16

Austin for uh their complicity in genocide and for their failure uh to

22:23

prevent uh this genocide it’s important to note that the the obligations under

22:28

the genocide convention are not only to persecute genocide when it of course it’s not to wait for genocide to happen

22:35

and then prute those perpetrators there is a duty to prevent and this is a duty

22:40

that is not only in sh in international law but in also in us uh domestic law U

22:47

that adopted the genocide uh convention within its domestic law um the case is

22:53

that the appeal stage uh uh and we’re hoping for um a good outcome we hope

23:00

we’re hoping that the judges will do the right thing this is also an interesting case because I think it’s a test for um

23:07

um the American democracy so to say because we’ve always learned this is a system of chicks and

23:12

bances um and somehow um now we’re faced with a situation where the Judiciary

23:18

have to answer whether it can tell the executive crunch what to do or not um

23:23

this goes back to us law and the so-called political Doctrine where it’s

23:28

understood that the Judiciary cannot tell the executive branch to decide on a matter of foreign policy but what we’re

23:33

arguing here this is not about foreign policy choices genocide should never be

23:40

the uh foreign policy choice we’re talking about the legal obligations of the United States uh government

23:47

represented by the president uh the Secretary of States and the secretary uh of Defense we also have several other

23:55

cases in relation to Arms uh experts uh including in the UK in Australia Denmark

24:02

uh Canada where the government by the way announced its intention to stop such arm experts based on um um a parliament

24:11

uh parliamentary advice which is usually not uh binding but they chose to uh

24:17

implement it nonetheless this was after we started a case in uh in Canada hak

24:24

also supports other cases including in Norway Netherlands and and many other

24:29

states but um in particular in in the Netherlands a case was taken by our partners the rights Forum uh packs for

24:37

peace and Oxfam uh and Amy International where they uh challenged the um the

24:43

Dutch government responsibility uh and its duty to stop exporting F-35 fighter jets parts to

24:50

Israel the um Dutch Court ruled that the Dutch government must stop exporting

24:57

these parts to Israel because of the risk of violations of international humanitarian law the Dutch government

25:04

shamefully to be honest asked to abild this decision and this is still uh um in

25:09

appeal stage so these efforts what I’m why I’m I’m I’m explaining all of these efforts I think it’s important to to

25:15

know that these are efforts that are coming from the people of the world through Civil Society

25:21

organizations uh um this is I think what we’re living now it’s it’s a moment that is very similar to the last phase of

25:27

over South Africa where the people of the world were United took things in

25:33

their hand took the streets uh um where it was also evident the the gap between

25:39

what people wanted and what their governments did especially uh in the west it’s important to note that Western

25:46

governments were the late comers when it comes to denouncing aparti South Africa as a matter of fact until this very

25:51

moment most western governments are not party to the aparte convention and refuse to

25:56

ratifying uh um so I think we’re living a similar uh moment

26:03

and I hope that we will see the end of of this uh racist Le regime very soon

26:09

and and here I think let me commend the the important efforts of students around

26:15

the world including uh in the US who are in my view are teaching us all a lesson

26:22

on how this should be done how we as citizens of the world can challenge uh

26:27

um these decisions uh they are truly um I think filling the moral vacuum created

26:35

by this age age complicit and and morally corrupt

26:41

politicians and I think they’re also providing us all of the much needed

26:47

glimmer of hope of a future that is hopefully better than our Pleak reality

26:53

um maybe I conclude with that on on alak’s work um for just to give you an

27:00

idea of how difficult the situation is at the moment since alhak establishment in

27:06

19179 um at the beginning of this genocide it was the first time that we had to announce publicly that we are

27:13

unable to cover the situation on the ground uh uh properly um our own staff

27:20

were displaced they lost family members I did lost family members uh myself and it became almost impossible to do our

27:28

work but luckily Palestinians have for decades had an excellent level of

27:34

cooperation among uh Civil Society organizations across the occupied paltin territory and we still manage to

27:42

document what we can uh uh but this is to give you an idea of how difficult the situation is of course the difficulty

27:49

always um persisted because of Israel um repression of of Palestinian human

27:55

rights organizations and actually lately it was revealed um its uh um policies

28:02

towards the ICC itself the the surveillance and the thuggish styled

28:08

threats whether from Israeli officials or shamefully also from us senates

28:13

sending the infamous letter threatening the IC in such thuggish manner maybe I I

28:19

stop here and if there is more time I’ll will talk more about the Israeli efforts

28:25

to delegitimize Palestinian human organizations thank you thanks Ahmed

28:32

yeah actually I want to give you an opportunity to expand on that um you

28:37

know we we saw as you noted the news uh recently of uh Israeli efforts to

28:42

intimidate the ICC in a in a very overt way um but also uh you know news of

28:50

surveillance uh of the ICC prosecutor himself his office his team um uh which

28:57

um you know might might explain why uh the Israelis began their campaign

29:03

against the arrest warrants um you know months before uh they were uh announced

29:10

um what um uh you know what can you share with us about uh what you know

29:16

about what sort of intimidation repression efforts have been uh directed by Israel against the the IC itself um

29:25

and also against those who are Shar ing information with and reporting to the IC

29:30

like human rights organizations like the one you uh you work for uh as a part of of Palestinian Civil Society uh targeted

29:38

by Israel and uh you know lastly um what laws exist against this what if anything

29:45

our country is doing uh about this effort to intimidate those who are um

29:52

working towards um and and and documenting um you know for for the sake

29:58

of Justice no absolutely to to start with you know threats against palan Civil

30:04

Society are um um anything but new in in the Palestine context um Israel even

30:11

established few years ago um a whole Ministry with u a mandate to Target

30:18

Palestinian human rights organizations and the BDS campaign was called the um the ministry of strategic Affairs um um

30:26

it even issued reports one of I think what was entitled terrorist insuits surprise surprise Israel also considers

30:33

human rights work as terrorism for Israel anything Palestinians do is

30:38

Terrorism um and it Israel also used um

30:44

um spy wear like pigas of spy wear on human rights uh organiz human rights

30:49

organizations staff including alhak staff in the past um as a matter of fact

30:55

in 2016 the IC itself published the report on the per examination which is

31:01

available publicly where the court itself um said publicly that staff of alhak and Mizan have been intimidated

31:09

because of their war with the IC including in the Netherlands so our staff including in the Netherlands have

31:15

been uh uh threatened which was also investigated uh um back then by by the

31:20

government but the the most outrageous thing I think Israel did in in the past

31:27

year is was the so-called designations which was an attempt to criminalize the work of Human Rights organizations which

31:34

was in 19 October 2021 the Israeli defense minister uh then um Gans uh

31:42

issued a a decision in which he designated six Palestinian human rights

31:48

organizations including alhak U as terrorist organizations under the so-called Israel’s um counterterrorism

31:55

law of 2016 notably uh and according to this law any

32:02

member of those organizations so any employee of any of my colleagues in ramala can face up to 25 years in prison

32:10

for being quote unquote affiliated with a terrorist uh uh organization um back then actually we we

32:18

um uh we uh objected this decision and then they actually um issued a military

32:25

order in the whs bank to give if um uh this decision effect in the occupied

32:31

territories because the Minister of Defense of Israel has no Authority in the occupied Palestinian territories

32:36

this also shows you how Israel deals with L with law it gives this image to the to the war that it has functioning

32:42

legal system but it uses every uh bit of it to justify its Colonial project

32:48

andart regime oppos on the Palestinian people as a whole so then after we said

32:53

well you have no Authority you can’t actually designate organizations that are Reg registered under Palestinian law

32:59

in the occupied Palestinian territory they issued a military order and enforcing them in the occupied

33:04

Palestinian territory notably um Israel pref prepared the

33:10

so-called secret DCA as Isel always does against Palestinians so we will we never

33:16

saw the evidence of accusing us until it was um um it was actually uh um revealed

33:24

in an investigation by um uh by several Outlets I think was the intercept and

33:29

plus 972 magazine where they got hold of that secret D and they saw that it didn’t

33:37

include any uh evidence as a matter of fact European officials have also

33:42

confirmed that there was no evidence there was an EU investigation that said these allegations were unfounded to our

33:49

surprise there was actually a CIA investigation that was leaked and reported in the news that the US also

33:56

found uh um grounds for such designations but the West government’s

34:03

passiveness uh once again prevailed so basically the Us and other governments they said we we don’t agree with those

34:09

designations but go ahead do what you want they did nothing whatsoever to compel Israel to reverse these

34:15

designations there was also a statement issued by by some states saying we haven’t seen anything to change our

34:21

relationship with palan organizations but had or would uh any evidence emerg

34:27

we review this so so basically thing is right please can you get us something we can rely on which is quite shameful and

34:35

it didn’t stop there and I will I’ll try to be brief on few months after on 18th

34:41

August 2022 Israeli forces um Israeli occupation forces raided the offices of

34:47

these organizations including uh alhak confiscated uh property tampered with um

34:54

uh with evidence and they sealed uh sh the doors of these uh

34:59

organization um um at alh when my colleagues in ramala arrived to our offices the people had already taken off

35:07

uh um the ceiling of the door so we found our office open so we continued uh

35:13

uh our work in our view um it is the will of the people that uh decided to

35:19

open our office the paltin people decided from themselves to open it and we continued uh um our work our general

35:25

director Shad Shin also received uh threats U um from Israeli secret

35:31

services and was was asked to um go to them and his answer which we also made

35:37

public as alhak and I invite people also to review Al hak’s publication on the matter where we provided a complete

35:43

narrative or what what happened and and then shaan told them that I’m a resident

35:49

of rala if you want to arrest me you know how you know the way uh so it’s

35:54

it’s it’s again it’s a long history of uh oppression of Palestinian

36:00

organizations and in our view this was in particular because of two lines of

36:06

our work one our accountability work and our long lasting constructive engagement

36:11

with the IC and the importance of this uh I think that um the one of the only

36:18

or the few sources for information of what’s going on in Palestine are Palestinian human rights organizations

36:24

because Israel denies visa for special rer Commission inquiries or un investigative bodies so it doesn’t allow

36:31

any investigative mechanism to access the territory this has rendered P society as the one of the few if not the

36:38

only source of information for accountability mechanisms and the second line of our work that is business and

36:43

human rights which resulted in a data base being adopted by the Human Rights Council listing all isra all companies

36:51

involved in the Israeli illegal settlements uh Enterprise this is in

36:56

relation to Civil Society in relation to the IC briefly there was an investigation by the guardian and I

37:02

think also um um the plus 972 magazine where they in two parts where they

37:09

showed uh that Israel has threatened the former prosecutor fat pin suda including

37:16

um going to her house sending her envelopes with the money and Israeli uh

37:21

number it was even shocking that was revealed that yussi kohen who was the director of mad back then uh with the

37:28

help of the president of De Democratic U Republic of Congo Joseph capila uh

37:34

ampush Fatu suda into a meeting because she refused to meet with him so she was supposed to meet with the president of

37:40

the of the DRC and then uh um Yi kohin just entered the room and this was the

37:46

meeting and it’s it’s really crazy just to imagine uh um how the US can say with

37:53

a straight face it has shared values with Israel or Israel is democracy while it’s acting as as U as

38:01

as a gang uh um also the current prosecutor was revealed that he also

38:07

received uh threats against him and against his family uh there were also reports of surveillance and spy were

38:15

being used against the IC uh um and I think this this was of

38:20

particular importance uh um because the um the Netherlands as the whole state

38:25

has an obligation uh to protect the court it its staff and those cooperating with it and it was uh yesterday only

38:33

yesterday was um reported that the Dutch authorities have summoned the Israeli

38:38

ambassador to the Netherlands to ask him about uh uh this matter so just to

38:44

conclude I think the the the Israelis have thought that the prevailing climate

38:49

of impunity will just continue with the protection of the US uh um and I think

38:55

now we’re just seeing the true face uh um of Israel and if I may just say this

39:01

is the is isolation is not necessarily about Israel as a state the isol the

39:06

isolation that we’re witnessing today is just what Zionism deserve this is what

39:14

the word has decided back in 1975 when the United Nation General Assembly decided that Zionism is a form

39:22

of racism and racial discrimination using these exact words this resolution was only revoked in 1991 after Israel

39:30

revoked um uh reconditioned its revocation on coming to Madrid

39:36

conference for peace which later resulted in the uh secret Channel and the oso agreement so obviously it was

39:43

just a maneuver to get rid of this of this label but now we’re just going back to this truth that Zionism is a form of

39:50

racism and racial discrimination it’s a suboc colonial racist ideology and it must be dismantled like fascism and

39:57

other racist ideologies it must have no place in our world uh Ahmed I I want to ask you one

40:05

last thing about um uh the designations that uh that you had mentioned um can

40:10

you say something about the timing of that uh uh decision uh and um what uh

40:17

what it may have been connected to in relation to hu’s work with the uh with the

40:23

IC yeah I I think as I said the the reason of these designations was our

40:28

work to to the with the IC and I think the timing was also uh related uh to

40:35

that um it seems that Israel um had Intel of when um the IC will decide on

40:42

the pass situation whether at the permanent examination stage whether at announcing the uh investigation or

40:50

conducting the in investigation itself um and I think they realized um that

40:56

it’s just the matter of time before the investigation will conclude um and where

41:02

arrest of forign will war of arrest will be uh issued and I think they wanted uh

41:08

to label the organizations with this uh label to in a way prepare public opinion

41:15

for what is coming when uh when the court start working which uh I expect

41:21

more repression of Palestinian Civil Society especially in the in the future because our work is instrumental to the

41:29

investigation at the ICC and Israel will do everything it can to uh to prevent

41:36

that it’s it’s important to note that the in the the designations came only a few months after the IC announced that

41:44

it started it will start its investigation in the situation in Palestine uh same goes to the um uh

41:52

surveillance and the US the usage of spyware on the IC so the more that that

41:57

information is being um revealed all pieces are coming uh together showing

42:03

that um Israel have always tried to hinder this uh process Israel even tried

42:09

which is I think a very interesting point even tried to spy on the court to get inail of which cases the court is

42:16

thinking of taking against Israel to create uh mood courts or some you know

42:22

form of of um uh uh um of uh

42:28

alleged Justice Just to Shield those perpetrators from the ICC because the ICC functions under the principle of

42:34

complimentarity so of the national um jurisdiction National authorities um

42:39

prosecuted the same person for the same conduct the court cannot investigate

42:46

that crime but I think uh they must have realized that it’s impossible for Israel

42:52

even to challenge uh this because the level of Israeli brutality in Israeli uh

42:57

crimes goes to the um will NE necessitate that arrest warrants will be issued at the highest level and I

43:04

seriously doubt that Israel will ever uh prosecute uh anyone at the high at the

43:10

highest level let alone even someone lower level and I I conclude with this idea people must understand that the

43:16

Israeli apart regime is premised on a promise of impunity to its soldiers

43:22

that’s why they can’t afford any form of accountability because once someone is held accountable there will be crack in

43:30

this regime and and uh Those who commit crimes will think twice before doing so

43:37

so there is absolutely a deterrence effect to this uh process and that’s the

43:42

the importance of it of course in addition to uh justice that must be

43:48

provided to victims thank you very much uh Ahmed and

43:53

uh before we turn it over to uh toan I just uh want to quickly remind our

43:59

audience that you can submit your uh questions for the panelist through uh the Q&A feature on the zoom or via email

44:07

uh to events at Arab Center DC uh.org uh

44:13

and now uh toany the floor is yours thank you um so with regards to

44:21

Palestinian reactions uh around much of what has been already discussed you know obviously that shift

44:28

in international public opinion uh the the sorts of um uh kind of action that

44:34

we have seen Grassroots and even among states themselves has been more than welcomed however I don’t think

44:40

Palestinians post 7th of October especially um have really deluded themselves uh into being overly

44:47

optimistic about how far the uh International uh institutions can can

44:52

really help uh move things or or change things in any tangible way at least in the immediate term uh if anything I

44:59

think what we have uh been shown is that as Susan mentioned you know you have uh in many of these

45:07

institutions it is the powerful that dictate how enforceable a lot of these decisions are uh and it’s precisely what

45:13

we’ve seen right power politics at its uh at its core in its complete raw form

45:19

where you know International institutions international law is only as powerful as International um or or sorry the most powerful states in the

45:26

International System allow them to be uh and so far it really hasn’t done much uh in order to prevent this Onslaught if

45:32

anything we’re now potentially facing another war on the uh Lebanese front right so that just goes to show how far

45:40

institutions like the icj can actually be a deterrent uh especially when it comes to

45:45

escalation um so I think in that sense you know the Palestinian reaction has been one of cautious optimism um but

45:52

when it comes to fitting into I mean or or when it comes to speaking sorry of a a broader palestin strategy and where

45:58

all these initiatives really fit in again I think that’s an overstatement to assume that Palestinians actually do

46:04

have some kind of coherent political strategy if anything I think that’s what it’s the absence of that kind of

46:09

political strategy that has led us to the predicament we’re in today uh a lot of that had uh much to do with hamas’s

46:15

own rationale for the 7th of October they you know a movement like Hamas to feel pushed into a corner to have to

46:21

take drastic action the way that it did um really goes to show uh how the

46:27

Palestinian uh I guess strategy has has kind of been driven um in in the in in

46:33

terms of their own internal divisions in terms of the absolute lack of any kind

46:38

of progress really you can speak when it comes to the Israel Palestine conflict and how far uh Palestinian reality in

46:45

the occupied territories has deteriorated uh and I think a lot of that you know the indicators were very much there prior to the 7th of October

46:51

when younger Palestinians were pushed sorry being pushed towards armed resistance when many of them felt like

46:57

you did not have a good faith partner in Israel where many of them felt that uh you know a lot of the International

47:03

Community were not fair and impartial Brokers and where to be quite Frank for a long time International attention had

47:09

completely shifted and it was almost as though the Palestinians had been completely left uh uh to to the the

47:16

complete discretion of the occupation right the military occupation which uh especially since 2021 has been I think

47:23

it’s been some of the most violent years we’ve seen since the second in father and where Israel has been able to quite

47:29

literally kill Palestinians with complete impunity you know to the extent where you actually had uh States like

47:35

the US and the European uh uh and and different European States actually facilitate that in many ways and they

47:42

still are I mean today we’re seeing not just in terms of the onslaught in Gaza but even what’s happening in the West

47:47

Bank where you have a population of 3.2 million who have been subject to Collective punishment uh for events that

47:53

they were they they’ve played absolutely no part in and worse yet um you know you you have a PA leadership that has been

47:59

largely complicit uh in clamping down on any kind of uh resistance or initiatives

48:05

that are trying to push back uh now in terms of you know how different Palestinian stakeholders or

48:11

factions have reacted to to a lot of these initiatives and whether um this has sort of created a bit of a watershed

48:18

moment within Palestinian politics uh I think given uh you know the state of

48:23

Palestinian politics prior to the 7th of October the fact that pal Ians haven’t been able to overcome their divisions uh

48:29

those divisions have actually become far more intractable since the 7th of October and I think you can really

48:34

classify um I guess uh the the debates within Palestinian politics into two strands the first is reformists who are

48:42

now thinking that resistance whether it’s Civic or armed is really the route to change here um or you you have the

48:49

anti- reformist camp which is being led by the PA Mahmud Abbas his two lieutenants and the PA Security Forces

48:55

who are absolutely adamant on on maintaining the status quo on maintaining collaboration and

49:01

cooperation with the Israeli occupation um you have had you know few initiatives come out of of many of the established

49:07

factions including Hamas who has actively worked to engage a lot of these factions uh in terms of pushing for a

49:14

United Palestinian leadership that can try and capitalize uh and try and lead in some of the momentum for political

49:21

change that’s been going on but again that hasn’t been very successful when you know you have mm abas has been

49:27

completely reluctant to to allow for any of that um or any of these initiatives to really take any sort of route and

49:33

what’s worse is that again as Israel he is being backed by the US uh uh and

49:39

other Western allies of Israel um you know that really is the the kind of Lynch pin of his power right now the

49:45

thing the the entities that are maintaining his political survival uh and even Regional mediators will tell

49:51

you that right now more than ever Palestinians need a united front they need a United leader ship but the the

49:57

primary obstacle to that is Muhammad abas and so you know you’ve had Palestinian factions and even I mean

50:04

this has even come out from fat itself uh you know it’s reformist current that has said that without any kind of uh uh

50:11

you know legitimate unified leadership it is going to be impossible for the Palestinians to really lead uh the

50:18

momentum of change that is going on globally uh you know what we have seen is the PA bandwagon on some of these

50:24

initiatives again for for more more self-interested reasons to ensure their own survival um and to saay face in in

50:32

front of their own population um again against a backdrop of the worst legitimacy crisis I think the PA has

50:38

ever experienced since its Inception but other than that you really haven’t seen much coming from from within uh I guess

50:46

Palestinian circles and and it’s it’s quite a tragedy when Palestinians will tell you that if anyone is expecting

50:52

change or any shift uh in the Israel Palestine conflict and anything positive positive to come for

50:58

Palestinians uh that’s going to have to come from from outside Palestinians simply do not have the capacity right

51:03

now to never mind lead on any of this momentum but to to seriously be able to

51:10

to affect change through this momentum simply because they are so hemmed in by numerous red lines uh that the

51:17

International Community have enforced upon them uh even when it comes to to you know decisions around their own

51:22

leadership that isn’t not something that they can independently uh determine on their own simply because the way they’re

51:28

thinking about leadership renewal and a united front is completely inconsistent and and is a complete non-starter for

51:34

for Israel and its International backers um so again it it brings them back to the predicament that they they found

51:40

themselves in or they find themselves in you um so I’m going to stop there

51:46

[Music] um thank you Deany I just have some

51:51

follow-up questions uh for you before we move to our uh audience uh Q&A

51:57

um you know we saw um a number of decisions by European States uh recently

52:03

to recognize uh the state of Palestine um you know this uh has been part of a

52:10

an an effort that the the PA has sort of um you know worked towards for many

52:16

years uh to try to advance bilateral relations with many different countries as part of sort of an

52:22

internationalization strategy um Europe has always uh been sort of the hardest

52:28

place to make uh progress uh in that regard um but uh we saw uh recognition

52:35

from Norway and Spain um and also uh Ireland and I believe Slovenia shortly

52:40

thereafter uh joined as well uh these of course are you know not just um uh

52:47

European countries American NATO allies um and uh you know important States uh

52:53

in uh in Europe and in the case of Norway and Spain of course um you know

52:58

countries that had their own sort of roles to play in the uh in the peace process at different points uh in uh in

53:06

time um what uh what were the sort of pa uh reactions to to this um and what do

53:14

you think these kind of decisions say about um where uh Europe is in terms of

53:20

its relationship with Palestinians um and uh with its uh patience towards the

53:26

United States uh and the way that they uh are hoping to advance their vision of

53:33

uh of uh conflict resolution in uh between Israel and

53:39

Palestine well as I mentioned earlier the PA has bandwagon uh really on on on

53:44

those um uh decisions or or those statements um and for self-interested

53:51

reasons uh again the PA is undergoing the worst legitimacy crisis in its history it’s been seen as as not only uh

53:57

complacent but also complicit in the current Onslaught in Gaza um and generally its position on on resistance

54:03

in the face of what has become an increasingly violent occupation um so I think with that

54:09

regards you know it’s to be expected that the PA would would very much um sort of support and welcome these

54:15

decisions but again I I throw a lot of caution as to why they they have done that um but I think also it’s just worth

54:21

mentioning I mean yes in some way symbolically it is a good thing that you know Palestinian state is is gaining the

54:27

recognition that it should um but at the same time I’d be really cautious about what the Contours of that actually mean

54:33

you know what does that actually mean in practice are we talking about Palestinian statehood within the confines of what you know many have

54:39

already been talking about it within the confines of Oslo which is not self-determination but autonomy you know

54:44

when we talk about Palestinian self-determination are they talking about a sovereign Palestinian state in the truest sense where Palestinians will

54:51

have control over their own land air sea and air sea space sorry and natural resources

54:57

will Palestinians be able to factor in their own security or are we going to have this rhetoric of a demilitarized

55:02

Palestinian state where Israel will continue to have the discretion uh to go in and and conduct what it calls Hot

55:08

Pursuit right which is to conduct targeted assassinations and and arrests whenever it feels like it without any serious

55:14

justification um so what kind of state are they really supporting what is that rhetoric really you know what what is

55:20

the underlying Contours of of of of statehood when when they deploy that kind of rhetoric um are we talking about

55:27

going back to the same kind of peace process that that proved to be a complete failure over the last three and

55:32

a half decades um so I think you know in that sense we do have to throw caution as as

55:38

I said it it is symbolically it is a good win for Palestinians but at the same time I would be very cautious

55:43

because even the International Community I don’t think has acted in good faith towards the Palestinians for the last three and a half years Oso was not a

55:50

good faith um agreement that wasn’t even a peace process when you have one side dictating the terms of an agreement onto

55:57

another that is not a peace process that is capitulation and that’s precisely what Hamas now are refusing to do and

56:03

when they talk about a peace process they want to see a peace process at the end of this they do not want to see the

56:08

same kind of peace process that L fat into a process of capitulation that simply doesn’t exist in their vocabulary

56:15

uh and I I think in that sense you know again the International Community I hope are not willfully taking the wrong

56:21

lessons from the 7th of October because that will not wash down with Palestinians that will not end the cycle

56:26

of violence um if anything it will continue to perpetuate it because Palestinians are no longer especially

56:32

younger Generations are no longer uh falling for the rhetoric that the International Community continuously throws at them in

56:39

order to try and quell uh any kind of uh uh uh up sorry um resistance to the to

56:45

the status quo I think that was something that the International Community should have learned prior to the 7th of October when they were trying

56:50

to Pedal this idea of offering Palestinians half-hearted concessions economic concessions uh in in in place

56:57

of their political rights and that Palestinians were very clear about that they are they were not willing to

57:02

undergo what they called economic sedation uh in exchange for their political

57:08

rights thank you for that and I just want to ask you one uh other follow-up question you know one of the arguments

57:14

we often hear made particularly here in the uh United States um uh is uh that

57:23

you know the the I isolation that Israel is facing uh is only going to deepen

57:30

over time uh especially uh if it uh does not resolve um uh its uh you know uh

57:40

occupation and and come to some sort of agreement with with Palestinians and

57:45

that the key to this is a Palestinian partner like the Palestinian Authority

57:50

uh so that the Palestinian Authority is is sort of seen as a partner in the rehabilitation of Israel’s um you know

57:58

International image um I wonder if you could take uh some time to just respond

58:03

uh to this and uh explain um you know your your thoughts on it and what it

58:09

what it seems to miss well I mean look I take issue with this idea that Israel is isolated I mean

58:15

it may be considered a rogue State and it’s undergoing a PR crisis right now but it is not isolated when you still

58:20

have the most powerful states in the International System providing unconditional support uh to Israel even

58:26

Regional States I mean states that have claimed to have cut to some degree uh economic uh and diplomatic ties I mean

58:32

you still have to on some level some economic um movement between the two so

58:38

I wouldn’t say Israel is necessarily isolated but it’s certainly you know it’s it its image has been completely uh

58:44

dismantled I think uh and the entire facade of of you know the Israeli narrative around its security and um you

58:51

know has been completely uh I would say dismantled um now now with regards to in

58:58

I mean reinstating sorry a PA within Gaza I mean look the pa um itself sees a

59:06

role for itself in Gaza that’s exactly what it’s been preparing for now uh the question is what kind of role does it

59:12

want to uh does it want to reinstate itself um through its institutions or do

59:17

you uh reinstate a security strong man who’s answerable to one man in ramala

59:22

mahm Abbas as you had pre 2007 which is what led to the the rise of of Hamas and

59:28

its takeover of Gaza right um it was the mismanagement by people like Muhammad dlan um those are the sorts of plans

59:34

that are being floated but Israel has already made that clear that that is completely out of the question now I also wouldn’t um necessarily take the

59:42

Israeli narrative that it has no um that it has no postwar plan for Gaza at face

59:48

value because there are certain nuances and realities that you’re seeing being created on the ground at the moment

59:54

right where today I think Israel has something like uh in terms of its actual ground presence something like 32% of

1:00:00

the strip uh where you know you can see that Israel is not going to allow anything more than actual dysfunctional

1:00:07

governance in Gaza where you may have basic service provision being administered by Aid

1:00:12

organizations um families Civil Society committees whatever um but they’re not going to allow for any kind of entity

1:00:18

that can ever be in a position to threaten its security the way or its sense of security the way that it did in on the 7th of October and that position

1:00:25

unfortunately just hasn’t shifted um if anything I think Israel is is standing very strong in that regard the only ones

1:00:31

that are really pedling this idea of reinstating a PA in postwar Gaza is the us but again there’s always a difference

1:00:37

between what different stakeholders actually want and what reality will allow um and I think the Contours of

1:00:43

governance will really be determined um at that point once we actually do see things kind of come to a calm but for

1:00:51

now that seems very unlikely I think thank you for that Dany um we’ll we’ll

1:00:58

start taking some questions uh from uh the audience um in this uh Q&A session

1:01:05

um and as more of those questions come in I wanted to direct uh one to to Susan

1:01:11

uh on this uh question of sort of uh EU recognition um a number of states now as

1:01:17

as we noted have recently recognized Palestine uh I think um uh hany raises

1:01:24

important questions about what exactly that means um uh and I wanted to ask you about sort of what the um legal

1:01:31

implications of that are in the bilateral relationships that those states have uh with uh Israel which is

1:01:38

obviously occupying the Palestinian state that they’ve just uh recognized um

1:01:44

so what um in what ways do those relationships should they change can they change legally what are the what

1:01:50

are the the obligations on those States now that they have made uh thec ision to

1:01:56

recognize a state of Palestine yes so I think tahani began

1:02:02

this um the response to this which is that what really matters is the

1:02:09

individual steps that these states recognizing Palestine take Visa Israel

1:02:16

what are they willing to do diplomatically to cut off diplomatic relations with Israel to uh place Visa

1:02:26

sanctions on particular uh Israeli principles uh or have visa restrictions

1:02:33

across the board um where Israelis are not free to enter their territory uh

1:02:40

without particular scrutiny for their connections uh with uh Israel’s genocide

1:02:47

um so there are a huge range of measures that these states can now take based on

1:02:53

this very important step of recognizing uh in Palestine uh and that remains to

1:02:59

be unfolded um I think you know a lot of this is going to come back to Civil Society

1:03:07

pressure uh what are these uh mobilized students and mobilized organizations in

1:03:13

each of these countries uh going to demand I was just in Spain a few weeks

1:03:18

ago and of course the conversation is completely different there than it is in the United States but I participated in

1:03:26

demonstration where the uh demonstrators were at the municipality building in

1:03:32

Moria demanding immediate sanctions um on uh on is Israel and

1:03:40

saying that recognition is not enough so that movement has definitely started all

1:03:45

over Spain the other conversation that’s happening there is for academic institutions to cut off all academic

1:03:53

relations not to allow isra academics to come to Spanish institutions academic

1:03:59

institutions so uh that pressure is building and I think we continue to

1:04:06

build uh but again it’s going to depend on how how much courage these states now

1:04:12

have to take these particular next steps bilateral steps Visa Visa Israel and

1:04:20

Palestine thank you for that uh Susan um ahed I wanted to direct um this uh this

1:04:28

question to you it’s a sort of a a modified um uh question from what we

1:04:34

have in in in the Q&A you you noted you know having family uh in in uh um you

1:04:41

know having lost family there and for so many people who are watching what is happening on the ground uh in G and

1:04:48

watching the international legal process play out uh at the incredibly slow speed

1:04:55

uh that is playing out um it’s um uh it’s it’s sort of maddening uh to uh

1:05:03

wait for the international legal system uh to go through its various

1:05:09

machinations over months perhaps years when the situation on the ground is so

1:05:14

dire so extreme um what else can be done if these uh

1:05:21

legal options uh are limited uh and and the extent and the speed with which they

1:05:28

can actually address um uh you know a situation that’s that’s not happening

1:05:34

years from now but is but is happening now every day uh and in and in horrific

1:05:41

ways yeah no absolutely legal legal process are always lengthy and and and

1:05:47

take time and this is particularly true in international law proceedings but international law as as it has been said

1:05:54

is worth what states uh make of it and how States um implement it International

1:06:00

doesn’t have an enforcement mechanism we have three advisory three primary um

1:06:06

provision measures rulings from the icj Israel acted in in um uh in in a very

1:06:14

disgraceful manner ignoring these uh rulings even act acting against of these

1:06:20

rulings so the the first one for example after um um after which they like after

1:06:27

every Persian measures order Israel almost after each of them committed several massacres um so it shows

1:06:34

complete disregard to international law but the the question is how to enforce um these rulings and the answer is the

1:06:41

security Council at the security Council you have the American veto so the system

1:06:47

is not perfect but the system can work the problem is you have a superpower that claims to be bacon of democracy of

1:06:54

the war that this supporting the genocide that is taking place that is um

1:07:00

continue to provide arms and weapons to uh an aperti regime that completely

1:07:07

disregarded International humanitarian law it made a mockery of the rules uh um

1:07:13

uh the rules of the laws the law of War um and even went further I think to uh

1:07:20

even for official documents that we saw these the State Department uh issuing

1:07:27

reports and then uh experts from the state department resigning and saying

1:07:33

that’s not what we said the the reports have been falsified so it’s it’s it’s

1:07:38

really crazy what the US is doing the US is complicit in uh in these crimes the

1:07:44

Biden Administration including Biden himself linkoln and Austin they have blood of Palestinian uh uh children’s on

1:07:52

on their hand uh and they’re guilty of of the same crimes Israel is committing

1:07:57

but from if I can say from Palestinian perspective I don’t think any Palestine

1:08:03

was ever under the illusion that international law can achieve Liberation

1:08:09

it’s actually not intended to do so uh um the system doesn’t allow for it to do

1:08:14

so international law can only um um provide uh what it can if there is a

1:08:23

political uh project that can in a way

1:08:28

use international law or try to utilize these decisions politically to to

1:08:34

achieve something so I think it would it would be also unreasonable to expect from international law things that it

1:08:41

cannot uh provide unfortunately in the situation in Palestine it is uh um clear

1:08:47

that the the the political um sphere is really uh uh bad Palestinian leadership

1:08:54

I think can do much more in this situation Palestinian Unity is a

1:08:59

Palestinian demand for uh over a decade now uh um and the the big question is

1:09:06

also how states are reacting to this so one of the one of the the things that we

1:09:12

hear all the time that Israel quotequote is the only democracy in the Middle East I don’t know if anyone can say this in

1:09:17

straight face anymore but the US and US officials including those I met Congress

1:09:22

and in since when I was in in DC seem to have a serious problem because

1:09:29

their idea of uh what the Palestinians want and of the Palestinians as a whole

1:09:35

is only what Israel is telling them the Americans only hear about the

1:09:41

Palestinians through the Israeli Colonial lens dehumanizing the Palestinians so we always hear um a

1:09:47

racist orientalist narrative that you know those Arabs are irrational they don’t miss an opportunity to miss an

1:09:53

opportunity we can’t reach a compromise with Etc and Israel Market itself to the

1:09:58

world as a functioning democracy with the respected legal system and this is all of Assad that is just being

1:10:04

instrumentalized to advance a colonial project continuing to steal land continuing to BU to to build Colonial

1:10:12

settlements in in in Palestinian uh occupied territory and continue to deny the Palestinians any form of uh

1:10:20

Democratic process so Palestinians have called for elections for years now even

1:10:26

the the Palestinian um um PA President issued a decree to um to have elections

1:10:35

and then Israel prevented the Palestinians from having elections in in East Jerusalem and it’s really

1:10:42

interesting that some people I talk to don’t even know that so they would be like yeah we want to see um elections in

1:10:49

Gaza or in Palestine in general we want to see a democratic process well why don’t you uh pressure your quote unquote

1:10:56

only democracy in the Middle East and your closest Ally in the region to allow

1:11:01

democracy to take place to allow the Palestinians to have elections uh in East Jerusalem um and the way

1:11:08

Israel is acting I think it’s it’s it’s so uh flattering the

1:11:16

disregard to international law and the question now is not whether you agree with the Palestinians whether you

1:11:21

sympathize or or uh um have solidarity with the pal or support paltin Co the

1:11:27

question now truly is whether you believe in international law or not and it’s quite sad to see the US which

1:11:34

claimed uh for decades that it believed in this uh system and so the so-called

1:11:41

rules-based uh uh order um that is completely disregarding it now like just

1:11:47

imagine how the us can go to any other country in the region and talk to them about their human rights violations the

1:11:54

dou status the hypocrisy is just uh shameful uh to be

1:12:00

honest so the the situation I think is

1:12:05

not only the lack of the lack of international laws ability to achieve something I think it’s a

1:12:11

combination of many other things including political well internationally but also the political life in in

1:12:19

Palestine and that is that is something um that is connected to the occupation

1:12:24

in Israel is doing everything in its power to prevent the Palestinians from uh ever being able to have any

1:12:31

Democratic process and that is the essence of Israel’s apart regime as um

1:12:36

we as alhak provided legal analysis that employs a tactic of strategic

1:12:42

fragmentation of the Palestinians into different categories uh and applies

1:12:48

different laws oppress them in many different ways so they can never meet

1:12:53

group or form any form of resistance and objection to uh this colonial uh project

1:13:01

um again the the now it’s is very clear that we live

1:13:07

in in in a reality similar to that of of South Africa um Israel and its allies uh

1:13:15

um are isolated are a minority perhaps Israel is not isolated yet as South AF

1:13:21

as the AP regime in South Africa was and that is solely because of the support of

1:13:27

the United States this this must be made clear if the United States decides today

1:13:32

that the war stops Israel would stop and the US did it before Israel can do that

1:13:40

but sorry the US can do that but there seem to be no intention and and

1:13:45

something also on on on the the current Administration it it’s quite really ridiculous the the line of policy that

1:13:52

they’re following the bid Administration obviously and clearly think if they achieved another quotequote

1:13:59

normalization deal that this will be their legacy so there is no intention whatsoever in this Administration to

1:14:06

provide any solution or to provide any uh um um political Prospect for for a

1:14:13

solution and and like it’s it’s becoming really difficult not to think perhaps

1:14:20

because the US was really uh um let’s say pissed that its uh project um

1:14:27

wouldn’t continue within the current circumstances after what happened on the 7th of October that it wanted Israel to

1:14:34

unleash hell on the Palestinians perhaps Israel and the US wanted to make an example of the Palestinians in Gaza and

1:14:41

and that is not necessarily what I think but that is a sentiment in Palestine people are are not only

1:14:48

blaming Israel for for being murdered our children are being torn apart by

1:14:54

American weapon Israel is getting away with murder because of American veto so it is

1:15:00

American weapons American Arms but also American diplomatic uh coverage that is providing

1:15:10

Israel that ensures Israel’s uh impunity and and I conclude with that what what the US is doing with such outrages uh uh

1:15:19

foreign policy is actually radicalizing both Israelis and Palestinians what do you expect from society that you give

1:15:25

all the weapons they need and make sure that they never held accountable of course they’re going to elect more

1:15:31

extreme governments so now we have a government U um with racist fascist and

1:15:39

homophobes uh in the government proudly so who decide decide things about the

1:15:44

the the if about the everyday life of of of the Palestinians this is a result of

1:15:52

of US policy and when Palestinians don’t see any Prospect of Peace it is also because

1:15:58

of of US policy so in fact the US policy is not beneficial neither to Israel

1:16:03

Israelis or uh uh the Palestinians and I and I think that’s something I also learned from my conversations in in

1:16:10

Washington is very obvious we we are at moment like like nothing we’ve seen before in the US where foreign policy is

1:16:17

being determined by few people three to four people only and a lot of people

1:16:22

within the administration don’t like that and don’t get the saying and we we saw those who resigned and announced

1:16:29

their resignations there are more who didn’t announc and that there are more who are planning to uh uh to resign so I

1:16:37

think this is this is also damaging the US’s uh

1:16:42

reputation U and credibility as an honest broker or or a state that claims

1:16:48

to have the leadership of the war leadership comes with responsibility uh and that entails

1:16:55

applying uh the law to your uh foes and your friends alike double standards and

1:17:02

hypocracy should have no place in international relations or uh

1:17:07

international law thank you for that um uh Ahmed I

1:17:13

wanted to ask you you know we saw obviously South Africa take the lead with the uh case at the uh International

1:17:21

court of justice uh we saw uh Nicaragua uh with the the case against

1:17:29

Germany as well um a very clear sort of

1:17:36

um acts of of leadership from the global South on this issue um which I don’t

1:17:42

think is surprising in any way um where are the Arab states uh what have their

1:17:48

positions been uh in terms of uh using international accountability mechanisms

1:17:54

um how does that vary across different states and and where is this issue on sort of the bilateral agenda between the

1:18:01

Palestinian Authority and uh the the Arab states with which they

1:18:07

engage thanks Yousef that’s a really great question considering I’m in

1:18:13

Jordan so thank you for that um so look I think Arab states uh I mean

1:18:21

that’s a you know yeah where are the Arab states that’s an excellent question um you know Arab states have been

1:18:29

unfortunately abysmal in their reaction to to the 7th of October Onslaught and if anything um you know not only are

1:18:36

they paying sorry playing a delicate PR game at home in terms of trying to balance public sentiment with their uh

1:18:43

foreign policies that just simply don’t Jael with what public sentiment is now um they’ve also been very complicit in

1:18:50

terms of clamping down on any potential movements uh like popular movements demonstra

1:18:55

s criticisms uh of their foreign policies and their relationships with Israel I mean here in Jordan you’ve had

1:19:02

um you know you have had demonstrations but again the numbers have been quite poor for what you would expect and a lot

1:19:07

of that has to do with the fact that you know there are numerous ways that the Jordanian regime is able to um suppress

1:19:13

uh uh popular um popular mobilization and they’ve done a very good job at that to the extent where even now you know a

1:19:20

lot of protesters are very reluctant to talk to um foreign journalists they’re very reluctant to really um speak on

1:19:27

anything that could potentially be considered controversial uh when you are at these demonstrations they are very

1:19:33

careful to make sure that a lot of their chance a lot of their um rhetoric is geared towards Israel and and its us

1:19:39

Ally rather than the Jordanian regime they’re very careful not to criticize any domestic policy um and what was

1:19:46

worse was we actually saw a lot of these Arab regimes like Egypt Jordan and and and Gulf States and those that actually

1:19:52

had normalization deals with Israel at the start of this Onslaught block any attempt by the Arab League to pass a

1:19:58

resolution that would have seen the severing of of Diplomatic Security and economic ties with uh with Israel and if

1:20:06

anything they have managed to continue um you know those uh those relationships

1:20:12

since um and what’s worse is you have countries uh like Jordan that are even abetting the aggression in Gaza right

1:20:18

now um and have somehow managed to now get themselves involved in in wider Regional um um uh you know

1:20:26

confrontations we saw Jordan providing you know it’s not like he actually has

1:20:31

much of a a choice here given the the memorandums it has signed with the US that basically uh basically gives the US

1:20:37

free reign to use Jordan’s uh air land and se- space to to do as it pleases militarily in exchange for you know the

1:20:45

billions of dollars that it gives Jordan in Aid um and again you know we saw Jordan’s uh uh intervention during the

1:20:51

Iran Israel scuffle where they allowed Israel and and the American Amic an to use their airspace to shoot down drones

1:20:56

and missiles overpopulated areas by the way uh they’ve been very good at clamping down on any potential reporting

1:21:03

suppressing any kind of media coverage um Egypt the same thing uh when it comes to

1:21:09

humanitarian uh Aid which again you know has been in terms of the sticking plasters of the International Community

1:21:15

um have been trying to apply in in getting around the fact that they they’re not doing enough to put concerted pressure on Israel to open

1:21:21

land Crossings to ensure sufficient amounts of Aid are going through through instead they’re they’re engaging in

1:21:27

these um sort of public postering practices of you know medical convoys and air drops and uh providing Aid

1:21:34

through the sea which have ultimately killed Palestinians in the process right um the very benefactors of this Aid as

1:21:40

well as not actually being nowhere near sufficient um so a lot of it has just been public posturing really to to try

1:21:46

and quell what what they think is public um sentiment and and and outrage at what is going on that hasn’t been missed but

1:21:52

unfortunately these states um are very good when it I mean they have a very sophisticated uh I’d say Machinery of

1:21:58

suppression here uh and and what’s worse is that these states I mean they’re no more than you know ultimately us

1:22:04

satellite States I mean these states are heavily dependent on Western age so just as you know Palestinians are very much

1:22:11

um hemlin into strategies that they can uh adopt around you know the growing

1:22:16

momentum in favor of their cause the same thing with Arab states you know they’re very much hemlin around these these red lines that uh that their

1:22:23

Western patrons have put thank you for that Dany

1:22:30

um Susan you know people around the world I think are looking at the

1:22:36

situation on the ground in in they see um blatant violations of international

1:22:43

law um no accountability they see uh International

1:22:50

organizations um making statements day after day about how desperate the

1:22:55

situation is U how it’s unlike anything they’ve ever seen before uh they see a

1:23:01

United Nations security Council which is effectively you know um

1:23:06

stalemated um on on this issue um and you know they wonder if this

1:23:12

International legal system functions uh and so much of it um

1:23:18

is a a product um like like the state of Israel of the immediate aftermath of of

1:23:24

of the the the World War II period

1:23:30

um is is it time for a reconsidering of this system is there going to be

1:23:37

momentum you think internationally in the aftermath of this moment to um try

1:23:43

to create perhaps um new international mechanisms for justice and

1:23:50

accountability given the the failures uh of the ones that that currently exist

1:23:56

and what might that look like yes I mean that’s that is the question of the hour um there is no

1:24:04

doubt that the dysfunction in terms of the uh separation of powers between the

1:24:11

security Council and general assembly that there’s huge pressure for

1:24:17

Change and that actually has been going on within the UN system for some time

1:24:23

there’s been a demand for an expanded Security Council uh the bricks countries have led

1:24:31

that effort uh the most populated countries on the Earth are de demanding

1:24:37

a seat at the security Council table um back in

1:24:43

1950 uh this amazing resolution was passed called uniting for peace which

1:24:49

tried to adjust the balance between the security Council and general assembly and actually and what uniting for peace

1:24:56

says is that when there is an impass at a time of threats to peace and

1:25:03

security when there’s an impass at the security Council the general assembly can take that issue and pass resolutions

1:25:12

on that issue basically taking the decision making from the security Council and that process is what we’ve

1:25:19

actually been seeing in these ceasefire resolutions at the general assembly

1:25:25

now in 1956 the general assembly passed a

1:25:30

resolution uh that um authorized peacekeeping forces in Gaza and those PE

1:25:37

this was after the Suez Crisis and those peacekeeping forces remained in Gaza until Israel left the Gaza Strip so the

1:25:47

general assembly under uniting for peace actually has more Powers than than we

1:25:52

have been seeing it utilized at the this point in time and I’m at a bit of a loss

1:25:57

about why that has not moved forward and I I’ve reached out to the Palestine

1:26:05

delegation and haven’t gotten a satisfactory answer but countries like

1:26:10

uh like Malaysia have actually said that they are ready to send peacekeeping

1:26:16

forces uh to Gaza and we have other states that have made similar statements

1:26:22

so there there is movement but but whether it’s a lack of political courage

1:26:28

or a lack of a sense that there will be sufficient support for this I can’t really tell you why these additional

1:26:35

Avenues are not being pursued um however I do think that this

1:26:41

is a watershed moment for the entire structure under the UN Charter and I

1:26:47

think there is going to be tremendous pressure additional pressure on the

1:26:52

already uh existing momentum for massive change in the way the UN Charter

1:26:58

distributes power now having said that uh I think what this also this moment is

1:27:05

also going to uh is showing us is that um uh Civil Society movements are going

1:27:13

to be using the uh authorizations that are coming from the international uh

1:27:20

tribunals and courts as a uh as platform

1:27:25

for pressuring their own states and their own court systems their own Judiciary and Executives to take the

1:27:33

steps that the international tribunals are saying need to be taken um so I

1:27:39

think there is now a a new kind of momentum both from Civil Society to see

1:27:45

that law is a tool it’s only a tool but it’s a powerful tool and that the um

1:27:52

onuses now on civil Society to translate that tool into action um so yes on both

1:28:00

fronts in terms of the whole structure of the system and also how law is going

1:28:05

to play out domestically I think there’s momentum I think there’s movement but it’s up to us ordinary folks who are

1:28:13

working on this uh to ensure that this moves

1:28:18

forward thank you very much uh Susan and uh just a final question for for Ahmed

1:28:24

if you can very very briefly as we’re about to close um what are the next steps for the IC we have the the

1:28:30

applications for arrest warrants uh that have been uh issued um do you expect uh

1:28:38

decisions uh approving these uh uh applications uh to come when uh do you

1:28:44

expect that to come and then um what will European states do if uh the

1:28:49

Israeli Prime Minister or the defense minister um arrive uh as indicted war

1:28:58

criminals oh yeah no thanks for for this question when the uh arrest warrants will be well as the the procedure of the

1:29:06

status says in due course um I think they will be uh issu they will be um

1:29:12

approved it shouldn’t be difficult the even the um the legal threshold um is

1:29:19

lower low at this stage reasonable grounds to believe and usually such R warrants are issued but it’s also

1:29:27

interesting how the prosecutor announced the um the the application for RIS warrants before being issued um by the

1:29:34

chamber that is unusual practice usually they’re only announced after the judges approve them in the situation in Ukraine

1:29:41

for example there were three sets of arrest warrants that were issued were only anounced after the court um issued

1:29:49

them but there there could be several reasons for that maybe the prosecutor um facing pressure because of the delayed

1:29:56

uh risk warrant I wanted to put it out there to uh show people that things are uh moving or could be that they wanted

1:30:03

to shift pressure to the judges political pressure from uh other states

1:30:09

especially that this particular practice is actually against what the manual of the preach out chamber itself says it

1:30:16

advises against making anything public before the judges uh approve them um so

1:30:21

I think they will be approved um my um what I think that there will be more arrest warrants legally speaking there

1:30:28

have to be uh uh more arrest warrants um and I think we can only judge the

1:30:34

current arrest warrants um when we see what is coming for which crimes and uh

1:30:40

for which perpetrators then we can decide on that because history did not start on October 7th and Israel is

1:30:47

committing crimes in the West Bank including East Jerusalem including uh uh settlements especially settlements of

1:30:53

transfer population into the occupied uh territories whether European countries will um um implement the arrest warrants

1:31:00

or not uh I think some states have already um made it clear that they would

1:31:06

uh of all places uh interestingly Germany signal that they might um

1:31:12

implement the arrest warrants Norway have made it clear that they will Implement them if

1:31:18

any those accused landed in these countries and it was reported actually a

1:31:24

few days ago that the Israeli government is even considering a scenario of what

1:31:29

if Netanyahu heading to the US uh next month will the plane will um have an

1:31:35

emergency landing in one of these states so the very fact that Europe the the

1:31:41

Israeli government is considering that they also know that some European countries will uh enforce them again

1:31:46

this is not about Israel Israel cannnot get away of everything European countries have invested so much in the

1:31:52

international criminal court and it’s it’s such an important institution uh for the world as a whole and I don’t

1:31:58

think we can afford uh um to lose it because if an Israeli uh accuse for

1:32:05

which an arrest warrant has been issued will land in any of these countries who are under the obligation to cooperate

1:32:10

with the court and they will not uh arrest him I think it will be the end of the international criminal court and

1:32:15

perhaps of the all so-called rules based order well thank you very much uh for

1:32:23

that uh answer Ahmed and on that note we will uh conclude our panel for today I

1:32:29

want to thank uh very much all of you uh for joining us today um both our

1:32:35

panelists uh and our audience and for engaging with our our speakers um thank

1:32:40

you for being so generous uh with your time and your insights and apologies to anyone whose questions we did not get to

1:32:48

answer uh in time please continue to follow uh the Arab Center’s work at Arab

1:32:53

Center DC uh.org thank you all again

oooooo