Sailak (A. Davis eta G. Maté)

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[Music]

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[Music] good morning good afternoon and good evening thank you thank you for being here my name is Mauricio Beno my name is

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Zia benatu and welcome to this conversation from Palestine to the World

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on the global struggle for Liberation with Angela Davis and Gabor

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mate um this convers is part of series on talks we are organizing uh on

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Palestine that will be released along with our new film called where olive

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trees weep which we film with Dr Gabor mate in

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2022 may2 in the occupied West Bank where we follow him um he was offering

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trauma healing work for Palestinian women who have been in prison and some

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of them tortured in Israeli prison and I want to read a brief bio which I know it’s completely unnecessary but

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never know in life Angela Davis is an international renowned activist scholar

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and writer who has dedicated their life to combat oppression in the US and abroad with a commitment to prisoners

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right and a powerful critique of racism in the criminal justice system Gabor

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mate renowned Canadian physician and author his work explore addiction childhood trauma and human development

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velopment his last book the meat of normal is a powerful critique of the impact of modernity and capitalism on

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our well-being just have to add Angela as a teenager in Italy Angela

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Davis has been my hero her and chear were they were giving me the strength to

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combat and to be a rebellious young teenager in it to me such an honor to be here so I bow to to this moment and

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thank you thank you thank you Gabor and Angela you have both been um advocating

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for Palestinian rights for for decades does this moment feel

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any unique or different um than any other times before

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and just gab I remember when we were in the West Bank uh you said I don’t hope

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to see any change in my lifetime and I wonder there was two years ago I wonder

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if that might have changed for you um maybe we start

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yeah when I said that I meant that I don’t expect to see any dismantling of designist apparatus I

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don’t see any easing in the occupation I see nothing more than further um

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imposition um Angel and I’ve been in know ways

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engaged with the struggle for a long long time and over that period of time

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we’ve seen the occupation get more Stark more oppressive more brutal uh less even

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um willing to hide its depredations from the public um the change that I have seen

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since October the 7th lo and behold the New York Times in

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the last two days had some pretty decent articles talking about what the occation actually looks like

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and the crimes of the occupation and the experience of the Palestinians I didn’t expect to see that and I didn’t expect

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to see the massive um uprisings uh in favor of Palestinian rights in favor of

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the truth that we winess witnessing October 7th Angela said a long time ago

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that the Palestinian issue is a moral lmus test for all of uh Humanity um I

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didn’t expect to see that litmos test become so clear to so many people so

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that’s the change that I’ve seen

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Angela you have anything to add to that oh yes

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um you know this is a on the one hand a very very difficult moment uh uh because

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we’ve seen uh an escalation of violence and

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and and torture uh intensification of of

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Zionism uh and so many Palestinian people are suffering but at the same time uh I know

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I have never experienced uh such a moment of hope uh for the cause of

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Palestinian freedom and I think it’s important to to

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recognize that um when we are involved in these struggles uh for Liberation uh

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around the world often times there is no Clear

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Vision of what the outcome will be there are no um

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guarantees but at the same time uh we we we have

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evidence that our activism does make a difference the work we do does make a

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difference difference and even though we may not know when we will see the evidence of that difference uh I I think

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that is what we have to keep um at the center of our vision like Gabor I never

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really expected to experience of something like this Global

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surge in um support uh around uh the the the cause

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of Palestinian Freedom uh I but on the other hand I

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knew and I have known that if we continue the struggle that one day um

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the the fruits of our struggle will become manifest U and I think that you

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know those of us like Gabor and and myself who’ve been involved in this this

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this movement for decades and decades we’re really privileged to be able to

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see uh some of the consequ quences uh uh of of the work that so many people have

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done over so many decades uh so I think that you know those who um are often um

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very sad that they don’t see immediate results uh uh can learn U from this

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experience not only with respect to the cause of Palestinian Liberation but the

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cause of global Freedom uh people all the world in in the Sudan in heti and

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and and in other uh places that where people continue to

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suffer angel I have a question for you um when I looked at my Instagram website

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there’s you know announcing this conversation with me you and I there was

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the usual enthusiastic hellos there was the acknowledgements than there the usual um

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impersonal um insults to either or both you and I that’s that’s

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just part for the course but one comment that I do did see a number of times is

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all this talking and nothing’s going to change and

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um it’s true I have to admit this conversation is not likely to save the

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life of or the living the little finger of one Palestinian baby or for that matter um and I have to say the

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tragedies on both sides I mean I looked at some list of Israeli soldiers killed in the last week or two they listed four

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four Israeli soldiers dead last week so and so Sergeant so and so 19 Sergeant so

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and so 19 Sergeant so and so 19 and force Sergeant so and so 19 imagine a

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society that when 19y olds are sergeants and they’re dead you know and

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so not that I equating the suffering or the responsibility on the both sides

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that’s the last thing that I do what I’m addressing is for all this talking that we do it’s true we’re not going to save

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a single life so I’m not asking this cynically and I suppose it’s a rhetorical question because I’m My Own

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answer but what is your answer to this question of we can do all this talking and advocating and activism it’s not

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going to save a single life well uh Gabor I think that of one

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um simply considers one instance uh uh then yeah of course uh one conversation

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will never make a difference one individual may never make a difference uh um and of course we who live in the

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west are accustomed to think um on those with those terms uh uh we see the

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individual as the unit of society we focus myopically on on on on single

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experience is but if one takes all of them together if one you know multiplies

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this uh this conversation by um a thousand or a

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million if one uh multiplies the the the protests that are themselves multiplying

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all over the world uh one can begin to see a difference um and I think that um

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what is um perhaps so important uh during this period especially is to

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imagine ourselves not as single individuals imagine our acts not as

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isolated acts uh but uh connected to uh vast numbers of people and vast numbers

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of protests all over the world that is what is capable of bringing about

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change can tell you why in your life um you’ve considered um Palestine such a

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moral as as I have by the way too uh such a moral litness test for the

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hor and in one of your books you talk about an amazing incident where um you were when you were in jail

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yourself in 1970 I think it was um and then you were tried on quy terrorism

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charges and you were eventually quitted but you received many

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um many um messages support and solidarity from people over the world

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including from Palestine yeah including from Palestinian prisoners and then when

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you went is did Palestine yourself you actually met some of these people who had who were prisoners at the

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time when you were a prisoner and and they had supported you it was a serendipitous meeting well apart from

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your personal experience why is Palestine such a Lo Stone such a l mostest for the

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whole world I think it is I’d love to have your words explaining why um well first of all uh let me say

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that um I have quoted my friend my um my

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my close friend and comrade who’s no longer with us the poet the black

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feminist poet June Jordan uh who said many many years ago

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that Palestine was a moral litmus test so I just want I I I I want to uh make

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sure that people uh recognize uh June Jordan as someone who was a Pioneer uh

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you know calling upon uh people all over the country uh all over the world and

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especially calling upon people involved in movements for black black liberation

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uh to stand up uh uh for Palestinian Freedom uh I truly believe that

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Palestine is a moral litmus test that um that one’s position on Palestine is

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indicative of of of one’s um sense of

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what Global Liberation is all about so that when we support Palestine we’re not

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saying that we only support Palestine uh uh we’re saying that we support

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struggles for freedom and Liberation all over the world and be precisely because

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of the tenacity of the Palestinian people uh precisely because they have

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refused to give up uh uh since 1948 since 1967 the uh I when when I visited

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um Palestine in 2011 I talked to a a man who was a

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storekeeper uh just um you know a conversation in the in the in the course

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of purchasing something at his store and he said to me he said as long as there

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is a single Olive Tree left in Palestine we will fight for the

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liberation of our people and that has stayed with me uh uh and I think that is

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the the the the the reason why we point to Palestine um as indicative of struggles

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for Liberation all over the world uh black people have been very much

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inspired by the struggle in Palestine um uh people in other parts of the world

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have been inspired by that and we know that if we manage to defeat

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Zionism we will be able to defeat racism everywhere we will be able to defeat um

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we will be we will have a sense of what it means to engage in struggles to

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overturn uh racial capitalism uh uh you know from

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Palestine uh to uh um Alabama let me

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say I think U there’s something unique about Zionism that you touch upon

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um um in one of your pieces uh you talk about that Israel is um not only the

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purveyor of a colonial settler project but also one of the active one that

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actively continues its violent expansion in the 21st centuries now the last seven

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months I have to say have been the heaviest darkest time of my adult life you know I mean and I this is subje for

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me and maybe it’s my jewishness and my own close relationship to the issue um I don’t know what it’s like for you you’ve

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lived through the same times that I’ve lived through the Vietnam War the Civil Rights struggle the South Africa

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aptide um and and you know struggle but there’s something about this and I’m not talking about numbers of deaths because

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I mean in Iraq half a million civilians were killed um not that long ago in in

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Vietnam millions of people died but there’s something about the quality of it that seems even more deeply

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disturbing and upsetting for me than what I’ve seen elsewhere and I if that’s

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true for you um but I think what it is for me is yes this is a colonial settler

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project it had to become one otherwise you couldn’t have succeeded but it’s almost like we’re

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seeing world history in speed it up fashion in a few months because this is

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went on for centuries here in North America here’s what this is when went on in in Africa for centuries and decades

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and so on but here it’s almost like we seaing up on our TV sets and our and Instagrams and our Tik toks and we’re

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seeing it in real life it’s almost like we’re looking at this horrendous version of our own past speeded up and magnified

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I don’t know if it’s if it strikes you that way but it’s like the whole Colonial history is like shown us now in

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this untrammeled horror and we can’t overt our

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eyes yeah thank you so much for um making that point and

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um you know I would add that uh the influence of of Zionism has been so

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powerful uh that it has blurred uh people’s Vision uh who who are otherwise

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uh take Progressive positions about the need for to support human rights in in

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in in in the world uh there you know this phenomenon of progressive except

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for Palestine yeah it’s something that we have been challenging uh for a very long

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time and it um continues um it continues today uh uh and as someone who went to a

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Jewish University I attended brandise University uh so that uh and I and I

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come from the segregated South as a matter of fact I grew up in the city that was uh

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the most segregated city in in the country U and

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our our first White allies were Jewish people yeah so you know I grew up with

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this uh sense of of the need to challenge anti-Semitism you know but at the same

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time when I found out what was happening in in in in

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Palestine uh early on um um attending a university that was founded in the very

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same year as the state of Israel uh I learned from my Jewish

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friends about the contradictions uh uh and and and so so I grew up with a sense

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of the need both to challenge anti-Semitism and to stand with

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Palestinian people struggling against the setler colonial violence uh

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inflicted by by Israel so so I would say that

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um that has been the the most difficult issue the

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assumption that if you are against

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anti-Semitism then you have to be opposed to the Palestinian struggle for

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Freedom if you are against anti-em ISM you have to stand with the state of

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Israel uh uh

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and my experience has been that Progressive Jewish people are the

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ones who have given leadership to this struggle precisely because they recognize the kinship between what is

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happening in pal in the occupation of Palestine and what happened historically

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in terms of of of the Holocaust uh um so I you know I I I I think that um the the

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the contradiction the apparent contradiction uh is something that we uh

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have to um uh recognize is is not a contradiction uh to be opposed to

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anti-Semitism to be opposed to racism to be opposed to settler colonialism and

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its impact on the Palestinian people is

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one struggle one Global struggle for human rights I think one aspect of that

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difficulty is that um Zionism isn’t just a standalone

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movement it’s very much uh embedded in interwoven with the much larger and much

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more powerful Imperial project so therefore as long as the Empire and its media

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acolytes um see Zionism as necessary to their purposes is very difficult for

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people here to even hear the other side and as I mentioned earlier today

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perhaps for two days in a row now the New York Times I had take my take take my hat off I’m also almost speechless

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has presented today and yesterday two articles that actually tell the truth about the occupation but that

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extraordinary unusual and usually and for decades the emphasis has been on the

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violence of the other side and it’s some point you actually right I’m just going to quote you if I may you say uh and you

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wrote this in your book uh freedom is a constant struggle published in 2016 so

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lest anybody think thinks that history began on October the 7th we’ve been

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talking about this for a long long long time and Angela wrote in 2016 is that um

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placing the question of violence at the Forefront almost inevitably serves to obscure the issues that are at the

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center of our struggles for justice and uh can you just talk about that how the

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the violent um I don’t know anybody

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that justify some of the events that happened on October 7th I don’t know anybody who does um but at the same time

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if we assume that that’s where it all began and the only issue is Palestinian violence what can we possibly understand

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so placing this issue of violence at the Forefront is is is a way of

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ignoring all the history and all the systemic issues that actually result in the eruptions of that violence can you

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talk about that uh yeah thank you um gavor this is um an issue that um has

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always clouded struggles for Liberation uh uh I can talk uh just briefly about

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the the Black Liberation movement in the US uh and uh there were of course those

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who advocated uh um the use of violence um mostly for self-defense uh uh and and

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and and we were often interrogated about um

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um uh why we didn’t take a position of absolute nonviolence

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uh uh and we pointed out that you know self-defense is about defending not only

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individuals but defending the right to be in struggle for Liberation uh uh but

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violence was always a central issue and of course that misconstrued the extent to which the

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state used violence against struggles for a better world uh and it

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uh prevented people from recognizing the extent to which the state was in

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possession of the Monopoly of violence uh and so you know Palestinian young

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Palestinian um uh uh people who use rocks uh uh to indicate their uh uh

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their refusal their refusal to Ascent to

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occupation U becomes the um the emblem of violence whereas the tanks and the

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bombs uh of the IDF uh are not considered uh violence in that respect

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uh so I I you know I I I think we have to talk about violence

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because violence does corrupt violence does uh you know I mean I would be happy

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if we didn’t see any more violence in the world but to assume that those who

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are fighting for a better world and attempt to defend themselves or attempt

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to express themselves uh uh uh through U

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modes of violence that are often times in significant in comparison to uh the

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vast uh violence of of of of militarism and Armed Forces uh uh that that that uh

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makes it impossible for us to really understand uh uh the right side of

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History I think we can give one example of that in the very contentious and very

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sad issue of hostages um people say release the hostages and yeah

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it’s you you broke for a second who abducted oob hostages not be there but

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we don’t talk about okay but so there’s it’s it’s very

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sad about the hostages and we all wish they were free what we don’t talk about is the hostages on the other side in

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2016 already Angel wrote that about the thousands of Palestinians in Israeli

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jails including uh something like you mentioned that 800,000 men this is by

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2016 we’re talking about eight years ago now

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800,000 Palestinian men had been through the Israeli jails 40% of Palestinian males 40% of Palestinian males have been

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jailed by Israel at one time another

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40% and the only G and we talk about hostages the

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orthopedic Department of alifa Hospital who was a orthopedic surgeon who saved

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lives he was arrested he was 53 a man in his in the height of his Vigor and

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health father of six children he was arrested while doing his Orthopedic work

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in Aliva hospital he was beaten and tortured to death in an Israeli prison

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didn’t even D to mention it and this time Palestinian thousands

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of them may year children are captured with a charge not if there was not that even

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there could be a legitimate charge against them and occupying power has no right to arrest anybody um for resisting them if a child

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writes a sign saying done with the occupation they can be jailed and they don’t talk about the

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torture in Israeli jails they don’t talk about the fact this is written in the Israeli press that some of the prisoners

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taken in Gaza had their hands and feet tight so tightly that the circulation was cut off and they had limbs had to be

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amputated and this has been divulged by Israeli Physicians you don’t see a mention of it

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in the western press absolutely and and and thank and so so

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that there’s no you know all I’m asking for and I think all you’re asking for is some equivalence of

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concern rather than this one-sided presentation of of one party is always

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the perpetrators of violence and the other as just defending

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themselves absolutely and and thank you so much uh Gabor for all of your work uh

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in um bringing uh this um uh lopsided

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assumption uh uh about um uh violence

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and incarceration to light uh uh and and and let me say that um you know I’ve had

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the opportunity on several occasions to meet um sah Frances uh who is the head

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of adamir uh and and um we have learned so much about the

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role of incarceration those of us who do work around prisons and let me say that

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uh uh that was that has been my first connection with Palestine political

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prisoners and struggles around uh issues uh of imprisonment uh and our effort to

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create an Abolitionist Movement uh in in in this country that has uh uh benefited

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so much from the experiences and from the theorizing of the role of

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incarceration uh in in in in in Palestine uh the role of administrative

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uh uh detention as you were pointing out the vast numbers of of of uh uh

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Palestinian uh men the the majority of whom have had some connection uh with

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the uh apparatus of of incar eration but we learned also that

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imprisonment is not an isolated phenomenon that it it it it is is not

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simply about placing people within institutions of jails and prisons

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that that um that the the society um

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that is um uh that has been created

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it by um the by Zionism by the

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occupation that it is a carceral society uh that uh I mean we learned many years

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ago that we can’t simply consider the issue as one of

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incarcerating individuals in a par inside of a particular institution that

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that carcerality gets expressed in the checkpoints it gets expressed uh in um

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in in in in the fact that um you know Gaza has long been represented as the

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largest open air uh prison in the world uh that Palestine has been represented

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as an open air prison uh so um uh I I I

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I think the all over the world we’ve we’ve we’ve benefited from the experience of of

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Palestinians with respect to the um various modes of of of carcerality uh

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and um let me you mention this in the beginning but but but I’ll emphasize uh

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uh the fact that when I was myself incarcerated back in the uh early

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1970s uh one of the most memorable moments of that period was a solidarity

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message that I received uh uh from Palestinian prison uh prisoners uh the

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message had been smuggled out by their attorney and it was brought in uh to my

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jail sale by my uh attorney and uh I um

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you know I’ve always considered myself an internationalist uh but moments like

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that uh uh emphasize and reemphasize how

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important it is for us to feel connected across oceans across geographical uh

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boundaries for us to uh recognize that um that in that that that we are one

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people we really are particularly considering the fact that that we live

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on a planet uh that is one of billions of other planets uh in in the universe

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and Beyond uh and the fact that it’s often so difficult as

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a consequence of systems like racial capitalism and and Zionism and

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colonialism uh to um uh experience the Affinity we should all have with each

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other uh is uh is is one of the saddest uh uh um experiences and the sad is

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consequences of of of

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capitalism Gabor we hear you speaking of unity and

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Oneness last night an Israeli friend sent me a YouTube link to a ceremony

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that was held in Israel I think a couple of days ago by a group called combatants for

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peace and these were mothers there was a mother who

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spoke who son went dancing on October the 7th ended up dying in a box bomb

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shelter a beautiful young man Palestinian mothers who’ lost their sons

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and these people had all come together to mourn together and to pledge to work

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for peace together and uh to pledge to respect and honor one another and these are

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Palestinians and Israelis coming together in this Unity of grief but also

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of commitment to peace and um it it it was mesmerizing and

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beautiful and heartrending but ultimately so full of Truth and and and and peaceful

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possibility um Zio I’ll find that link and I’ll put it into the chat line if you want to spread it uh yeah we did we

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just share and we know them yeah you know okay very good okay I just want to

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mention that positive note um Angela I want to come back to one more issue that

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you mentioned is Progressive about everything else with Palestine um there’s so many fellow Jews that I now

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that are decent really good-hearted people who do wonderful work in the

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world commit themselves to healing and to humanity

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um and who on this issue particularly if they’re in a

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certain generation they cannot [Music] see the forest for the trees they just

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cannot uh I know Wonderful Jew I have wonderful Jewish friends from who live

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through apartheid in South Africa who are totally clear about the Injustice of

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the system that they grew up under but who cannot see the parallels despite the

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fact and you mentioned this yourself that Mandela was very clear

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that as long as Palestine is not free South Africa can’t be free and so you

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you talk about the sanctification of Mandela and what’s interesting is it’s a

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very um selective scientification they scientifi some

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aspect of his work but they don’t much mention how clear he was on issue of

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Palestine and so can you just talk about this phenomena

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you mentioned it of progressive and everything else and being able to see Injustice everywhere else or not on this

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one I think I think it’s a trauma outcome I think it’s a people stuck in a kind of

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traumatized view of the world but um I wonder how you’ve dealt with it in

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your life well you know first of all I think it’s

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really important to uh point out uh that um Progressive and radical Jewish people

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have given leadership to the movements of this moment uh uh and and

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historically my experience has has been that um that that Progressive Jews

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including people who have the experience of the Holocaust and

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background have been the ones who recognize uh how important it is to

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express solidarity uh with Palestine I was on on the Russell Tribunal for

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Palestine and of course that’s an example of a a formation that is that

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came into being precisely because of the fact that Progressive um Jewish people

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felt that something urgent had to be done so I I I I I I don’t think that we need to um

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Ascent to the assumption that to be Jewish uh is uh uh to be uh uh in line

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with the policies of the state of Israel uh and and and but on the other hand as

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you pointed out uh precisely um because of the ideologies

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of the the last um um decades uh uh so

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many people assume that to be opposed to the state of

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Israel is to engage in anti-semitic um uh

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activities that is ideological that is what we have to challenge and I think

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that uh when we see the consequences of the work that has been done over the

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last decades uh now there have been occupations um uh two days ago there

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were occupations that were still existing on um or I shouldn’t say I

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shouldn’t use the word occupation because because of its connection uh you know with the occupation of Palestine

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but but um um uh what is the word that they’ve encampments they’ve been and

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their encampments uh in 180 un I ities in in this country uh uh

40:01

you know what has happened over the last months has been absolutely incredible

40:07

and it it it also lets us understand how we must go about challenging

40:14

Zionism the fact that you as you pointed out the New York Times has had a couple

40:21

of very extensive articles on the occupation which is UN precedented for

40:28

the New York Times Yes and these articles didn’t appear because the New York Times certainly um uh began to

40:36

rethink themselves in isolation uh what their coverage had been and and made a

40:43

decision to change it it’s the impact of all of the protests uh all over this

40:50

country uh but all over the world uh because protesters in the US were not

40:57

the first to stand up to stand in solidarity um with Palestine and I think

41:03

you mentioned uh Nelson Mandela uh uh South Africa has been in the Forefront

41:09

of the global solidarity uh movement uh for you know so many years I can

41:14

remember that I attended the UN conference Against Racism that took place in Durban uh in 20 in

41:23

2001 um and it was the South Africans who were arguing uh uh for an an awareness of the

41:33

aparte nature of the oppression of the Palestinian people uh uh so this

41:41

struggle has a very long history and for those who are accustomed to um uh

41:49

immediate results instant results uh uh uh it has not uh borne very many um

41:57

um fruit but at the same time those of us who see the protracted nature of

42:03

struggle and are willing uh to uh recognize that it is important to pass

42:09

on from one generation to the Next Generation uh uh the uh uh the the the

42:17

the importance of standing with Palestine uh that eventually it does uh

42:25

uh bear fruit we we do see the consequences of that uh very long and

42:32

prot protracted struggle that is why the New York Times articles appear you know

42:38

I said I want to give credit where credit is due it’s not the New York Times that independently decided to do

42:45

that they recognize that if they are going to be on the right side of History

42:50

U they have to respond to the demands of the millions and millions of people all

42:55

over the world who are saying uh uh we want to see uh freedom in Palestine now

43:04

we want Justice for Palestine right now you know you mentioned South

43:10

Africa’s advocacy um for justice in Palestine and I was watching the the

43:17

South African lawyer Advocate that the international court of justice speak

43:23

yesterday and this is a subjective point but when I heard her speak or when I

43:29

hear one of the Irish Representatives speak and the Irish are are uniquely interesting example in Europe because

43:36

they’ve suffered British colonialism imperialism for hundreds of years so when you go to Ireland there’s a lot of

43:42

support for Palestine because those people know on their own skins what it’s like to be colonized

43:48

but anyway when you listen to these Irish people speak or the South African they’re they’re not just

43:54

reciting dry facts or or or statistics

43:59

or um viewing history you can actually feel on the human level on a heart level

44:06

here’s a real person speaking with real emotions and the South African

44:12

lawyer fairly young woman was talking about the sitation of

44:17

children at some point gets very emotional and nearly into tears and then when you listen to the

44:22

Western spokesman and Israeli spokesman you hear these dry

44:28

voices devoid of emotion full of

44:33

superious um sense of superiority you people don’t understand we understand

44:39

I’m just saying that even if you didn’t understand the words that were being uttered on the human level there’s such

44:46

an exchange of there’s such an expression of reality

44:51

and heart-c centeredness on the one side and a refuge into the cold calcul mind

44:57

on the other you can’t by struck by it even if you don’t know the

45:02

facts absolutely and I think Gabor that um uh we’ve missed over the the the last

45:12

decades a sense of what it means to be emotionally connected uh uh to uh people

45:19

who are suffering in other places uh um because of the nature of the media the

45:26

role of of of of uh mass media we and and the way as you pointed out and in

45:33

which uh often times it’s about numbers it’s about facts uh U but um you know I

45:41

I had been thinking uh before October 7th that we haven’t in a very long time

45:48

experienced a movement where we felt that kind of emotional connection uh and

45:54

I remember the the the struggle of for uh this the struggle around Vietnam uh

46:01

when when when we were we were uh allowed to experience our Humanity our

46:08

expansive Humanity as involving people who were suffering from us militarism in

46:16

Vietnam and and I think that’s um that’s that’s that’s so

46:22

essential and and I I don’t want to under estimate all of the horrendous

46:29

suffering that has happened in Gaza and on the West Bank and elsewhere in

46:35

Palestine but I do want to point out that that vast numbers of people now

46:42

have that emotional connection and and and therefore have

46:48

experienced a much more expansive sense of their own

46:55

Humanity yes yes

47:00

um let me ask you about how you see the world like back in

47:06

the 70s when or the 60s when you and I were well same age only as I said only

47:12

three weeks apart in birth terms in that youth of mine I did think

47:21

naively that if we only work idealistically enough and hard enough of

47:28

this world is going to change for the better and um there was that same sense of U triumphant expectation

47:36

around the Civil Rights Movement as well and so on and for a while things seemed

47:42

to be just expanding and opening up and then to quote the Hollywood movie

47:49

The Empire struck back and uh we’ve

47:54

seen almost the opposite happening over the last couple of decades the

47:59

movements have lost some degree of momentum uh unions are much more

48:06

suppressed um the Press has become much more monolithic and people have become

48:12

more passive now we’re seeing then as George Floyd happens and

48:18

and Traver and Martin and there’s periodic expressions of solidarity and

48:24

resistance um again we’ve seen a surge of that over Gaza and maybe this will

48:30

catalyze something more long lasting but how do you see it going overall since

48:35

you’re enthusiastic and maybe sometimes not I don’t say naive but uh yeah you’re

48:43

enthusiastic youth are you are you able to maintain the same enthusiasm do you

48:48

see still partake of that same momentum

48:53

or do we acknowledge that there are setback and sometimes it recedes and

48:59

sometimes it moves forward what is your sense of this whole thing well

49:06

um you know those of us who have spent um um more than eight decades on on on

49:15

this this Earth uh of course the perspective is different uh from those

49:22

who have spent two decades yeah but I

49:29

um I I value that sense of urgency that comes uh uh from youth uh and that um

49:39

that assumption uh that that we have to

49:45

act now in order to save the planet we have to act now in order to guarantee uh

49:52

that uh more people are not sacrificed on the altar of uh uh racial

50:01

capitalism uh colonialism I um you know oftentimes

50:07

people ask me uh what would you say to your younger self uh you know what what

50:13

would you say to yourself the self that believed that was possible for revolution to happen uh in uh our

50:22

lifetime and and I often respond by saying I’m not so much interested in in

50:29

uh schooling my younger self I’m much more interested in what my younger self

50:35

would think about what I’m doing now uh so that so that um I try to maintain a

50:43

connection with uh with young people you know both as an educator uh and

50:49

especially as an activist uh I remember when I was young the older people I was

50:56

most most impressed with were those who were willing to have serious conversations with those of us who were

51:02

younger are those who uh believed in egalitarian uh relationships across

51:09

Generations uh and I try my best to do that now I don’t know whether I succeed

51:15

uh uh but I think we do need the the the the urgency that young people feel

51:23

without that uh our movements don’t have an an engine they don’t have uh uh the

51:29

capacity to uh push themselves forward and you know of course we believe that

51:37

Revolution was possible that it would happen uh in during that period uh and

51:44

um and of course it didn’t in the way we imagined it those of us who imagin the downfall of capitalism and racism and

51:51

you know all of that uh uh but in the process of fighting for those lofty

51:58

goals we brought about change and I hold on to that uh we would not be here today

52:06

with our um Notions of how important it is to Stand Up Against

52:13

Racism uh and the fact that racism is global that it’s connected to um uh

52:19

settler colonialism uh uh which as you point out Israel continues to try to

52:27

expand uh if we had not done that uh uh during that period we would not be where

52:33

we are now so we may not have we may not have achieved the revolution we thought

52:40

was on the horizon but we did um make the kinds of

52:46

changes that have allowed people to become much more aware of about the

52:54

interrelationships between racism and heteropatriarchy uh and homophobia uh

53:01

and and and and and and why it is um that traumas as your work has uh uh

53:08

pointed out trauma uh uh moves from one generation uh to the next uh and that

53:15

often times traumatized people may repeat uh May engage in the in in in in

53:23

the kind of of of of violence that was inflict did on them uh I mean I think

53:28

we’ve learned so much uh uh you know I often point out that at at the beginning

53:35

of my trajectory in this struggle um uh I was convinced that uh what we had to

53:42

do was free the black man because that is what we were told and now we know

53:47

that we can’t talk in those gender terms uh that is not only about the the

53:53

man and the woman but it’s it’s a challenge to the binary structure of gender uh and so I could talk about so

54:00

many insights so much uh Consciousness that has occurred as a consequence of

54:08

those struggles uh uh but uh you know often times uh it it takes um it takes

54:15

decades it takes hundreds of years uh of you know

54:20

we who are uh the beneficiaries of enslaved people’s uh

54:27

refusal to accept slavery and you know they stood up

54:33

against slavery they could not have imagined that we would be where we are now but we are only here by virtue of of

54:41

of of of their commitment uh to struggle for Freedom well thank you beautifully put

54:49

um to conclude this and I know you have to leave um two things spring into mind that I’ve

54:55

been quoting quite a bit recently one is uh from the bav Gita where it says that

55:02

you’re entitled to your work but not to the fruits of your labor you know so you

55:07

do it because you do it you don’t do it because you’re expecting a certain outcome number one number two there’s a

55:12

Jewish rabbi 100 years before Jesus who said that the task of healing the world

55:19

the task is not yours to finish but neither are you free not to take part in

55:24

it so I do think that those of was engaged at this work cannot be discouraged by temporary setbacks or

55:33

apparent lack of result as you point out we’re contributing to something and

55:38

those of you who are listening who may be overwhelmed by the forces ranged against the truth that as they

55:44

understand it don’t be you’re part of something much greater much more historical and much more essential and I

55:50

think that’s what Angela’s words just all pointed to

55:56

and also if I can um um make a statement uh

56:03

regarding uh the importance of being aware of the fact that those who came

56:10

before us cre uh the foundation for the work that we are doing uh you know often

56:18

times uh uh people um think that they are the firsts that that they are the

56:25

ones who are are uh doing the important work uh uh but we can do what we’re

56:32

attempting to do now only because of what was done by those who came before

56:38

us so I think it’s so important to develop a historical consciousness that

56:45

extends not only into the past but into the future uh and so uh yeah we won’t be

56:53

able to um winess what the full consequences might

56:59

possibly be of the work that we’re doing now but we do know that if we do nothing

57:05

um uh there will not be a future in which uh uh the the the the the the

57:13

borders of Freedom will expand and become inclusive uh uh for uh the

57:19

Palestinian people uh so I I I I also

57:24

like to think of um those of us who are U older as you and I are as representing

57:33

for those who were no longer here uh you know for those who gave their lives to

57:38

to to the struggle and made it possible for us to reach this point we are

57:45

witnessing for them as well

57:50

absolutely wow thank you thank you so much Angela

57:55

for we honor you and for for your work for the global Collective struggle for

58:02

Liberation your voice of many and thank you for keep reminding us that we are

58:07

not individual this is not an individual work and as much as we are fighting

58:13

against Zionism and colonialism and capitalism we have to also be um against

58:20

individualism because this is really what’s the it’s the essence of created a colonial project allowed allowed that

58:28

that mentality that thinking that was imposed on indiv on indigenous way of

58:33

being and um seeing the world as as a collective home as a one inter thank you

58:40

so much for for being here with us today for your time

58:46

and um Gabor has gracefully agreed to to stay a little longer to address the

58:53

questions and we have your mind G gracefully or not but I will stay on

59:02

you let me say that I’m I’m I’m sorry that I had another um uh event and so I

59:09

I do have to leave before the questions but this has been uh really inspiring

59:14

and thank you so much Gore for the work that you have done uh for for so long uh

59:21

and uh and and and thank you for doing this work that will uh reach ever larger

59:27

numbers of people who hopefully will also become a part of our movement for a

59:33

better future uh for the Palestinian people and for all people in the world

59:39

thank you thank

59:45

youel so there’s lots of questions maybe we’ll start with reading a few and then

59:51

bring a few people online sure so um

59:59

we didn’t speak there are a few questions about dehumanization how that dehumanization

1:00:05

paves the way to genocide and how much of that is um

1:00:12

rooted in intergenerational trauma anything you have to say on that

1:00:18

well

1:00:27

so any project that wants to empower one

1:00:34

people to displace or rule over or have more

1:00:40

rights than another has to either subtly but increasingly overtly

1:00:47

dehumanize that other people so it has to begin with I have

1:00:52

more right than you do if eventually it becomes you’re inferior to

1:00:59

me and this is an the whole idea of race for

1:01:04

example you we think that race is a given entity but race is actually a

1:01:10

construct there used to be no racism until about the Advent

1:01:17

of of capitalism where the expanding Colonial

1:01:22

capitalist countries of Europe decided they to take over parts of the world that have were

1:01:29

already populated and so on these people had to be made

1:01:37

inferior otherwise how would be have right to take over what they what they

1:01:43

possess so the whole idea of a black race or a white

1:01:48

race they’re no races in reality I mean you know a skin color or configuration

1:01:53

of nose or lips does not make you A different race there’s only one race the human

1:01:59

race so the whole idea of race itself emerged out of a political economic

1:02:05

imperative to colonize right now the slave owner has to believe

1:02:15

that they are superior to the slave they even have to

1:02:20

believe that the slave is happy to be a Slave so a lot of the southern slave

1:02:28

owners um really lived in this belief that their their were

1:02:38

happy now when it came to Palestine um it had to begin with the

1:02:46

belief that we have more rights here than you do even though we can’t even prove that

1:02:54

we came hor for from here 2,000 years ago maybe some of us did maybe didn’t some of us didn’t but inherently because

1:03:01

we’re Jews we have more rights in fact we even have to pretend that you don’t

1:03:07

exist so the slogan a land without a people for a people with the land as if

1:03:13

there was nobody there and that meant that the people who were there became

1:03:20

nobodies and this is only being exacerbated and deepened and darkened as

1:03:26

the occupation takes further hold so that there was a poll done in

1:03:31

Israel this is reported in today’s New York Times Israeli posters would ask um

1:03:38

their populations about um the importance of resolving the Palestinian

1:03:45

issue over the decades and uh what they found was that uh in these

1:03:52

polls almost every other issue was more important than the Palestinian

1:03:58

one I’m talking prior to October the 7th he says um this is Israeli pollsters

1:04:05

they asked the respondents to rank issues in order of importance it didn’t matter how many choices the pollsters

1:04:12

presented she said resolving the Israeli Palestinian conflict came in last in

1:04:18

almost all the measurements it was totally ignored in Israeli public opinion prior to October the 7

1:04:26

s so that that whole people and what was going on to them just a few miles away

1:04:34

right disappeared as an issue of importance well that’s racism that’s that that’s sort of um

1:04:42

evaporating the essence of the other so that they don’t even exist in your mind and how do you and I’m not blame

1:04:50

and I’m not blaming Israeli individuals among they’re very great ones they’re very brave ones the very courageous ones

1:04:57

and even the ones who are not are just unconscious I’m talking about that’s how that system works we’re talking about

1:05:03

systemic effects we’re not talking about individual evil we’re talking about a system that evaporates the essence of

1:05:09

the other but the system has also penetrated the individual because we see

1:05:15

that hardening of humanity that cruelty that brutality that individuals

1:05:21

Express um yeah yeah but it’s that what is it that creates that evil it looks

1:05:29

like evil that is embodied an individual body it’s an well I think

1:05:36

it’s a social political Dynamic and people are all over the world are very much fairly passive recipients of what

1:05:43

comes at them so that um um in February

1:05:49

the polls in Israel showed that something like 9 94% of Israelis thought

1:05:55

that what the Army was doing in Gaza was appropriate or maybe not even enough and

1:06:02

this is after the deaths of 10 thousands of CH of thousands of children uh but

1:06:07

you know what that’s a universal phenomena it’s Universal if you look at

1:06:15

the United States um or Canada where you and I are speaking from um if you have a TV

1:06:24

discussion of say what kind of parties Travis Kelce

1:06:29

and Taylor Swift go to and did they kiss each other or not you’re going to get millions of people

1:06:35

watching discuss discuss something really important like climate very few

1:06:42

people will watch so I don’t want to blame them too much I don’t want to put blame on individuals these are systemic

1:06:48

issues they manifest individuals but they’re absolutely systemic and how much

1:06:54

of De is the suppression we are taught to suppress our feelings so the system

1:06:59

can continue because if you feel on a human level we will see what’s we seeing

1:07:05

now with the global rising of the students so how much from a trauma lens

1:07:11

that is fed by frozenness or suppressing our

1:07:17

Humanity well yeah so in in my book The Myth of normal that that you know very

1:07:23

well we have a chapter on the a social character and the social character is the character that this culture

1:07:29

inculcates in us and the way they would have us be and one of the features of the social character is that

1:07:36

disconnection from emotion and a and a passivity COR yes so it it takes

1:07:42

especially sensitive individuals um or sensitized individuals

1:07:49

to actually take part in a demonstration to

1:07:55

challenge their families to stand up for what to believe is right but most people are not to not a fault of their own but

1:08:02

they’re made into passive and rather indifferent observers of the

1:08:09

world which is also part of the design of the of the capitalist project keep you always in struggling and in fear and

1:08:17

that completely disconnect you from trying to think about me individually and disconnect from the it’s not even a

1:08:25

design as it’s not like somebody sat down and designed it it’s that every system knows how to prepare a system is

1:08:32

a self-organizing machine that knows how to perpetuate itself so it’s built in

1:08:38

and it’s encouraged but it’s not like somebody has to sit there and design it it’ll automatically work this way that’s

1:08:45

what makes it so powerful Jamie pen you’ve been so yamie

1:08:52

you have been so patient you are the first person with the hand up we want to bring you

1:08:59

in on you muted can you hear me yes okay

1:09:04

thank you um I feel like I’m gonna ask a similar question as I did with um Rabbi

1:09:09

Lynn Gabel firstly I appreciate everything think you do I see

1:09:15

you I sit here and I observe myself as I hear this and I’ll keep this short I promise the one thing that strikes me is

1:09:21

I don’t think we as a popul population as a species know what solidarity means because the

1:09:28

question I posed is what made Palestine the moral litness test because when we

1:09:35

started to fight for Palestine and please know that I asked this question as a teacher forever student with Grace

1:09:41

loving compassions but I know that when we started to fight for the liberation of

1:09:46

Palestine we’d have a few thought leaders that I respect say what about Congo and San now please understand that

1:09:52

I’m just speaking as part of the mass Consciousness this isn’t just mind but I know I’m part of it how can we learn

1:09:59

true solidarity if we know there are going to be a people that say that I didn’t get

1:10:05

this support from the world when we were going through XY Z and yeah I be to know

1:10:11

your thoughts I think what about the Congo and Sudan Dar

1:10:18

for Syria Iraq the ogers

1:10:26

those are fair questions those are fair questions and when you look at them

1:10:33

overall whatever is happening in those individual countries are manifestations

1:10:38

of the same globalized capitalism system that Palestine also represents so those

1:10:44

are her questions I’ll tell you my personal answer to it here in North America I

1:10:51

don’t see massive propaganda in favor of genocide and are

1:10:56

for I don’t see massive propaganda supporting starvation in the Sudan or anywhere

1:11:04

else I don’t see the politicians lining up enthusiastically sending

1:11:10

weapons and I don’t see the media writing articles every day justifying it

1:11:16

so I’m if I’m engaged in a

1:11:21

uh struggle to bring tooth to the question of pal it’s not because I value Palestine higher than I value some other

1:11:28

place in the world but because the system in which I exist is so doggedly and so determinedly

1:11:37

and so persistently and perniciously lying about what’s happening in Palestine and justifying it

1:11:46

so that I’m not fighting for the truth over there I’m fighting for the truth over

1:11:53

here and in that sense as Angela pointed out Palestine is a Lous test for the

1:11:58

whole world but that whole world also includes Sudan also includes other places it’s all one yeah thank you thank

1:12:08

you so much you want to read question that came before the event how can I as

1:12:14

an Israeli resist this horrible reality without feeling so much shame that

1:12:20

weakens me from being active leor alperin you are okay well I would say to

1:12:27

you first of all um why are you feeling shame you’re not doing

1:12:34

anything it’s being done in your name but you’re very fibrous rebel

1:12:42

against it so any shame that you have drop it

1:12:48

you don’t deserve it and it’s very hard for me to tell you

1:12:55

what to do because if I speak out as the way I’m doing I might get a lot of

1:13:01

people calling me names but I’m not going to lose my job I’m not goingon to

1:13:06

lose my friends because I don’t have friends who who argue the other way I

1:13:11

just have want much to do with them but in Israel you’re part of a community in

1:13:17

a system that’s very much organized to keep you quiet and to punish you if

1:13:22

you’re not quiet I’m not here to tell you what to do but there are others in Israel who feel the same way join with

1:13:30

them don’t make yourself alone and yes you ought to feel some

1:13:37

responsibility not in a sense of guilt but in a sense that I can take some

1:13:42

responsibility here join with others who feel the same way decide together what

1:13:48

under the circumstances that you’re facing you can do can you visit the West Bank and offer

1:13:54

some words of support can you witness the deputations

1:14:00

of the settlers and tell your communities about it can you join with

1:14:05

others in various organizations can you join stand together and at least dialogue with

1:14:11

Palestinians who are also mourning can you do all

1:14:16

that so I’m not here to tell you what to do but I’m telling you drop the shame

1:14:21

drop the guilt and take whatever responsibility you

1:14:29

can Maria Maria bring

1:14:35

Maria hello can you hear me yes wonderful uh Dr Gabor mate I just

1:14:43

want to take an opportunity to extend my eternal gratitude toward you and Angela

1:14:49

for all that you’ve done and the advancement of the collective Consciousness and healing um I’m really

1:14:55

curious about this idea of uniting over the struggle of the Palestinian people

1:15:01

and the implications that can have to continue to perpetuate that which we do not want to see rather than unification

1:15:08

over themes of resiliency and Liberation and I would just love to

1:15:15

hear your take on this because I have a desire to be more masterful in

1:15:21

envisioning that what we want versus that which we don’t want how that actually influences what we’re

1:15:27

witnessing and what’s unfolding right now Maria I heard your words but

1:15:35

I the actual question didn’t emerge for me can you make it in one sentence what are you asking

1:15:46

me sorry they needed to unmute me so the question is what are your thoughts over

1:15:52

the understanding of unifying with struggle rather than unifying in an

1:15:59

Envision of what we want which would be

1:16:06

Liberation what I’m not quite getting what contradiction you see I mean it seems to me unifying and joining if by

1:16:15

unifying you mean joining others in struggle that is the pathway towards Liberation so that the it’s not a

1:16:23

question of envisioning beautiful F Futures and uh wonderful outcomes of

1:16:29

what we’d like to see it’s a question of what can we do right now to join in the struggle with those others who have the

1:16:34

same aspirations and the same ideal so I think

1:16:40

U the question although it seems to see two separate things I think it’s

1:16:47

one so you joining in unity and

1:16:53

participation is the way to Envision the future thank you thank you thank you

1:17:01

Maria want to read another question to what extent can we begin to heal trauma

1:17:07

in the midst of a crisis like Gaza or can we only begin the work of healing the root of the cycles of violence after

1:17:16

people reach relative physical safety if the answer if the question has

1:17:23

to do with what do we do to heal trauma in Gaza right now oh my God nothing

1:17:29

people are being traumatized freshly every day their lives are in their lives hang by a

1:17:36

thread every day I hear about somebody who knows somebody who died his whole family was wiped

1:17:44

out all we can do is the best we can do is to support them

1:17:49

morally and materially if we can but trauma healing will have to

1:17:56

happen later the trauma that does need to be healed in this process is our own

1:18:01

because let me tell you personally whatever I think of this issue and whatever my opinions are

1:18:08

sometimes I can react to the same issues from a traumatized place and then I’m not very

1:18:16

effective so and the more I can calm myself and

1:18:23

get grounded and um come from a a healed Place Within

1:18:30

Myself the more effective my words and speaking and actions can be so those of

1:18:35

us that have the luxury of working on our traumas shouldn’t wait till this is over to

1:18:42

address them because in the lack of that our work itself will be undermined by

1:18:47

our lack of Consciousness and you can only be conscious when you’re healed over there I wouldn’t presume to

1:18:55

tell them how to heal their traumas in the midst of this unspeakable suffering and and and

1:19:02

threat thank you thank you yeah one question uh why do you think

1:19:09

Psychotherapy professionals registration bodies and organizations have been

1:19:15

silent and have not called for ceasefire how do you explain

1:19:21

this it’s not unique to psych therapy organizations I mentioned yesterday I

1:19:27

mentioned earlier today sorry about Dr Adnan Al brush who was the head of orthopedic surgery at alaa hospital I

1:19:37

think he was arrested in the middle of an operation they took him they beat him

1:19:43

they tort tortured him to death not a word of it from any medical

1:19:50

association that I know around the world imagine if the Russian had taken a

1:19:56

Ukrainian order to be surgeon out of the operating theater tortured them to death what the outrage would be when a part of

1:20:03

the American Medical Association so it’s not unique to

1:20:11

the to psychotherapists and and psychologists uh this silence the

1:20:19

silence is almost [Music] Universal it has to do with I think a

1:20:25

number of factors one is that a large number of psychotherapists

1:20:32

psychoanalysts psychiatrists Physicians are

1:20:38

Jewish and um my Jewish colleagues for whose work I have a lot

1:20:45

of respect from whom I’ve learned a lot and who has so much to give the

1:20:50

world I think on this issue very often conflicted to say the

1:20:56

least or hostages to Zionist ideology and a kind of fearful inability to see

1:21:05

the other point of view so they’re silent and their

1:21:11

colleagues are silent number one number two um it’s not

1:21:17

just the Jewish issue and I’m talking about really good people here for who I have a lot of

1:21:23

respect is not just a Jewish issue it’s also an issue of the overall

1:21:31

culture and in this culture with the exception of these two New York Times articles that Angela and I talked about

1:21:38

that appear just in the last two days the information that people have been getting has been for decades completely

1:21:45

one-sided so they have no framework with which within which to understand what’s going

1:21:52

on so it’s um and thirdly when I began to speak on this

1:21:59

issue by the way that’s nothing new for me I’ve been doing it for decades but but for some people it turns out to be a

1:22:07

surprise that I should talk about these issues in the last several months I get all these messages we’re not following

1:22:13

you anymore uh you’ve totally lost your credibility um all your work means

1:22:20

nothing uh you’re self-hating Jew uh you’re a capo a capo is was a Nazi

1:22:27

collaborator people are afraid of getting all that stuff thrown at them I don’t blame them it’s not particularly

1:22:33

Pleasant um not that it stops me but you know um but uh there’s a price to be

1:22:42

paid so if you’re a therapist or a spiritual leader I know a spiritual leader I’m not going to mention their

1:22:49

name but they have been forthright with their followers

1:22:54

they’ve lost followers people have been following them for decades because of the depth

1:23:00

and the inspiration of their spiritual guidance and the wisdom that they’ve imparted into the world and all of a

1:23:07

sudden all that doesn’t matter because you’ve spoken out on this issue

1:23:13

you’re disappeared from my Consciousness and so people are just

1:23:20

intimidated and finally on OP ptic level people are losing their jobs over

1:23:26

this you know if you can if you make a speech justifying the killing of tens

1:23:33

and thousands of Palestinian children you will never lose your job but if you make a speech or sign a

1:23:43

statement deploring that same killing you might be at risk for losing your

1:23:50

job so I’m not judging anybody for not speaking out I’m saying those are the factors that uh play into it and with

1:23:57

that I myself have to bring my participation here to a close thanking

1:24:02

you all and I could answer more questions but um I have to go get

1:24:08

haircut oh priorities thank you so much gab and thank you for for leading us

1:24:14

also You’ve Been instrumental in our own journey of waking up to this reality and taking us with you to the West Bank and

1:24:22

seeing ourselves firsthand the reality there because it’s one thing to read it’s another thing to see it and be

1:24:28

there and and and you’ve lost a lot of followers too haven’t you 50,000 just

1:24:34

50,000 it’s okay there’s no any other way we are getting way more because at

1:24:41

least we have people that we feel Comfort we have a community that we can trust you know and we can okay see you

1:24:47

guys soon thank you everyone so sorry we couldn’t address all the questions but

1:24:53

we’ll continue these conversations and create more space to meet so thank you

1:24:59

everybody just the film will be released on June 6 through June 27 it will be

1:25:06

available on our website so you can watch it directly by donation by donation and each donation that we

1:25:13

receive we’re going to plant an olive tree in the occupied West Bank and hopefully in Gaza so each one of the

1:25:20

donation and and and also will support Qatar is a trauma work for for your

1:25:27

children yeah the West Gaza yeah so please help us spread this message help

1:25:34

us spread the movie where olive trees weep is the website and thank you for

1:25:40

being here today thank you thank you thank you