Palestina: erresilientzia (24)

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

Transkripzioa:

0:00

[Applause]

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thank you anas uh thank you the Cordova

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Foundation uh Middle East Monitor Halal

0:08

Center special thanks to my dear friends

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Rada and N for sharing uh the podium and

0:16

Dr dud Abdullah and one world for

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enabling me to publish this book I’m

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particularly moved by having the friends

0:28

here with me on the panel I think I met

0:31

rather in 1981 for the first time you

0:34

can calculate the years we don’t want to

0:37

calculate the years we met at the house

0:40

of parliament of all places by an event

0:42

I don’t know if you remember rather

0:44

organized by The

0:45

Spectator uh with the PLO representative

0:48

at the time uh I rather was aware of

0:52

something I wasn’t aw when we met when I

0:56

told her because she liked much of what

0:59

I said already 1981 and I said to her

1:02

you see not all the zionists are bad and

1:05

R said to me you might not be a Zionist

1:08

but you don’t know it and it took some

1:10

time before I realized myself that

1:13

actually the views I express could not

1:16

have been defined as Zionist ideas but

1:21

it took time for me to liberate myself

1:23

from that

1:24

ideology and uh as already mentioned uh

1:27

I uh rather I appeared again uh in the

1:31

book uh and at a time in the UK when it

1:34

was very difficult to speak for

1:36

Palestine to stand for

1:38

Palestine uh and it took a lot of

1:41

courage and a lot of effort and

1:43

commitment to insist that Palestine

1:47

should be represented in the public

1:48

domain in the media in politics and uh

1:53

we are standing on wide shoulders today

1:56

due to the immense and incredible work

2:00

by activists like Dr Rak Cari GRE V also

2:04

great pleasure to see my dear friend N I

2:07

was trying to remember when I met you

2:08

first but it’s also in the very distant

2:13

uh past although n and I were born not

2:16

far away from each other geographically

2:19

I think we only met outside of

2:21

Palestine uh and uh what I do remember

2:25

is that that n and I participated in a

2:28

very naive effort by our dear friend

2:31

Edward the late Edward S he was

2:33

sometimes naive he brought Israeli and

2:36

Palestinian historians to Paris in 1999

2:39

we won’t mention the names of the

2:41

Israeli historians 97 97 in ’97 Paris in

2:45

Paris and he uh thought that there was a

2:48

common ground to to agree about the

2:50

version of History if you remember no

2:53

and he was deeply deeply disappointed

2:55

that there was no common ground and this

2:57

is important for him it was important

3:00

because at that time together with

3:02

Daniel burb may he live long uh they

3:05

thought that they found a recipe for

3:08

coexistence that was not very relevant

3:10

to the reality on the ground and Dr dud

3:14

I think you you invited me many years

3:16

ago for a conference in London and it

3:18

was for me the first experience of being

3:21

introduced to the world of the Muslim

3:23

Community in Britain and its very

3:26

special

3:27

commitment uh and devotion to the

3:30

Palestine question it opened for me and

3:32

new world of uh alliances

3:37

friendships uh and winning the

3:39

confidence of the community is something

3:41

I really cherish and appreciate and uh

3:44

without the help of this community it

3:47

would have been very difficult for me to

3:49

withstand the kind of pressures that all

3:51

of us uh are witnessing when we speak

3:54

freely and truthfully for uh Palestine

3:57

so thank you all for being here and I

4:00

really appreciate it I uh wanted to

4:04

write this book because of a conundrum

4:06

that really interested me and intrigued

4:09

me over the years how come a state that

4:13

is declared to be a high-tech state with

4:16

the strongest army in the Middle East

4:19

with the full support of the United

4:21

States and the West still tries to

4:25

advocate for its legitimacy so many

4:28

years after why is this lack of

4:31

certainty by the state itself and

4:33

whoever represents it that maybe its

4:36

legitimacy is questioned on the one hand

4:41

on the other hand why the Palestinian

4:45

case and cause which is very simple in

4:49

many ways and very easy to understand as

4:53

a basic moral

4:55

issue still does not succeed to become a

4:59

legit imate cause in so many places

5:02

where decision are made where policies

5:05

are

5:05

pursued and uh I thought that this kind

5:09

of conundrum needs uh not a soundbite

5:12

answer which usually we we need to give

5:14

under the pressure of media and so on

5:17

but maybe I need to go back in history

5:20

and very uh slowly

5:23

reconstruct the history of lobbying for

5:25

Zionism to try and understand why today

5:28

we are where we are and this is why I

5:32

apologize for the length of the book I

5:35

know that many people don’t like to read

5:38

books at all and many people don’t like

5:40

to read long books uh there’s sometimes

5:44

people who prefer just to look at the

5:45

screen of the

5:47

smartphone uh it’s not an SMS book um

5:51

but I do hope that uh the the patient

5:54

will pay because you need to really go

5:58

step by step from the begin beginning to

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understand the longivity of the lobby

6:03

its

6:04

Effectiveness but maybe hopefully also

6:07

realize its deficiencies and weaknesses

6:10

so that we have a hopeful vision for the

6:13

future and not just lament all the time

6:16

what true is true the total imbalance of

6:19

power on the ground in the region in in

6:23

the global system that explains why we

6:26

are where we are uh uh today another

6:30

reasons for the ra rather length uh

6:34

length of the book is the fact that I

6:36

wanted to bring long

6:39

citations uh from British and American

6:43

politicians in particular both those who

6:46

supported Zionism but also those who

6:49

opposed Zionism it’s amazing to read

6:53

statements by both sides of the uh

6:57

argument from 1900 or 1905 which are

7:01

really prophetic are really prophetic in

7:05

the sense of understanding what the uh

7:09

support for a Jewish state in Palestine

7:12

would do to the Palestinians and to the

7:14

area as a

7:15

whole understanding what kind of

7:18

complication it would create for the

7:20

Jewish communities wherever they are so

7:24

you have these people with you know

7:27

ability which is incredible at a given

7:30

moment in history to see beyond the

7:33

moment to see into the future and it

7:36

gives you a sense and I think anas that

7:40

connects well to what you was saying

7:41

that we are still in that historical P

7:44

chapter it’s not we don’t have a closure

7:47

for that uh chapter and I could call

7:49

this chapter the Western idea that the

7:55

problem of the Jews in the West can only

7:58

be solved by colonizing Palestine at the

8:02

expense of the Palestinians and how

8:04

would we continue to defend this

8:07

horrible idea and uh uh give uh immunity

8:12

to its practices and policies against

8:16

the Palestinians wherever they

8:20

are and although I was familiar myself

8:24

with with many chapters uh in the

8:27

history both of Palestine and of

8:30

Zionism uh I was still uh uh surprised

8:34

to be reminded of certain uh stages in

8:38

the progress of the lobbying for Zionism

8:42

which really ring through today and

8:44

relevant today for instance the fact

8:48

that Zionism began as an Evangelical

8:52

Christian project before it became a

8:54

Jewish one that the whole idea that the

8:57

return of the Jews to Palestine is is

8:59

part of a Divine scheme that will

9:02

precipitate the second coming of the

9:04

Messiah the resurrection of the dead and

9:07

maybe the beginning of 1,000 years of

9:10

Jesus’s rule on on earth now it was not

9:14

every Evangelical stream in thinking

9:17

that thought that way but it was an an

9:20

important part of Evangelical

9:22

Christianity beginning in Britain and

9:25

transformed into the United States by

9:28

people at who first you could call them

9:31

theologians rather than politicians but

9:34

very soon some of them became

9:36

politicians of importance and they

9:40

especially in Britain they provided a

9:43

certain theological justification for a

9:46

new Imperial thinking not just about

9:49

Palestine but of the whole Eastern

9:50

Mediterranean the mashrek because the

9:53

British uh uh basic view on the Eastern

9:57

Mediterranean throughout the 19th

10:00

century was that although the Ottoman

10:03

Empire that ruled that area was in

10:05

Decline it was better to keep it intact

10:08

because a disintegration of the Empire

10:11

would create a a a struggle for spoils

10:15

among the European powers and could lead

10:17

to something which would be called later

10:18

on a World War which in fact is what

10:21

what happened but the pressure of those

10:26

Evangelical Christians who to together

10:29

with British imperialists who thought

10:32

that it’s time to seed from the Ottoman

10:35

Empire the Eastern

10:37

Mediterranean brought together first of

10:40

all a non-jewish support for the idea of

10:44

what they would call The Return of the

10:46

Jews to Palestine and the replacement of

10:50

the Palestinian with a Jewish Kingdom or

10:54

state or Republic depends of who we are

10:57

talking about now it means that already

11:00

throughout the 19th century people were

11:03

discussing the fate of Palestine and the

11:06

Palestinians without the Palestinians

11:08

being aware that are becoming a regional

11:11

project or even a global project of

11:14

colonization and I was surprised to see

11:18

how much this kind of thinking

11:20

influenced the early Jewish uh

11:22

supporters of Zionism because I always

11:24

thought that this was were kind of too

11:27

discrete projects that had nothing to do

11:30

with it but then I I read a diary by one

11:33

of the most important early Zionist

11:36

elazar Ben Yuda who reinvented the

11:38

Hebrew language he was very much

11:41

influenced by Evangelical

11:44

Christianity and changed his mind about

11:46

Zionism in the sense that he said yes we

11:50

might we should redefine Judaism not as

11:53

a religion but as a nationalism but I

11:56

think they are right it should happen in

11:58

Palestine and and not anywhere else so

12:00

there was an impact of that kind of

12:03

thinking the Imperial thinking the

12:05

theological thinking coming from

12:08

Christianity on the very nent very small

12:12

number of Jewish intellectuals who

12:14

thought that the best solution for

12:17

anti-Semitism in Central and Eastern

12:19

Europe was to uh create or establish a

12:23

Jewish State uh in in Palestine so

12:26

that’s the beginning which as you can

12:29

probably understand today is not just an

12:33

intellectual uh or an interesting

12:35

forgotten chapter of the past it’s still

12:38

a very relevant Alliance that is still

12:42

working today by the way not only in the

12:44

United States where we are all familiar

12:47

with the term Christian Zionist as a

12:49

Lobby that supports Israel you go to

12:51

Sweden you go to Denmark you go to

12:54

Norway Christian Zionism is a life in

12:57

Europe and in the united k om as well as

13:01

as an idea that uh uh supports Israel

13:05

unconditionally in the name of the same

13:08

theology that began the whole Zionist

13:11

project to my surprise when I was in

13:13

Malaysia I met leaders of the Christian

13:16

Community in Malaysia and they also are

13:18

very much under the influence of

13:20

Christian zionists uh uh in in that

13:23

respect so this is an alliance of the

13:26

past which is still steadfast

13:29

uh uh uh today the second uh uh again

13:34

note in the book that reminded me of

13:37

things that I forgotten and I thought

13:39

are very relevant for today is the

13:43

insistence of every leading finger

13:47

figure sorry in the anglo-jewish

13:50

community and also in some of the

13:52

western uh Jewish communities people

13:55

with uh status with position

13:59

some of them ministers in in cabinet

14:02

some of them important business figures

14:05

in their society I was surprised to re

14:09

reminded that they made sure that

14:11

everybody would understand that they

14:15

themselves would never go to Palestine

14:19

that they felt safe in Britain that they

14:21

saw no reason whatsoever to create a

14:24

Jewish State because they had a problem

14:26

as an anglo-jewish community

14:29

and farers and more cynically and more

14:33

sinisterly they said if there won’t be a

14:36

Jewish state in Palestine the poor Jews

14:39

that are subjected to anti-Semitism in

14:41

Central and Eastern Europe would come to

14:44

Britain God

14:46

forbid and they would are poor we would

14:50

have to take care of them after 1905 the

14:53

sense was that these pows are also Bic

14:57

so they would steer problem for Britain

14:59

as a whole and the Jewish community at

15:02

it uh and uh and therefore it’s quite

15:06

incredible to go back to the material

15:08

itself and to see it word by word

15:11

written in explaining to British policy

15:15

makers German policy makers so on this

15:18

is good for Europe because we don’t want

15:20

the poor East European Jews to come to

15:24

the west or to the United States when I

15:27

started talking looking for the origins

15:30

of uh uh the pro Zionist Lobby in in the

15:34

United States so uh this is important

15:37

because again it sounds like a distant

15:39

chapter in the past but it’s very much

15:42

irrelevant issue today isn’t it I mean

15:45

the whole uh uh connection between uh

15:49

the anglo-jewish community and uh Israel

15:52

and this whole uh walking on egg shelves

15:56

when we start we we begin to talk

15:59

earnestly and honestly and actually on

16:03

Against Racism not because we are racist

16:06

that you cannot be an ambassador and

16:08

ambassadress for Israel and at the same

16:11

time claim that all you care is for the

16:14

interest of the Anglo Jewish community

16:16

and anybody who W who points out to to

16:19

this kind of connection is immediately

16:21

branded as an anti-site or in my case as

16:24

a self-hating Jew this is something that

16:28

we should not be afraid to talk about

16:31

because this is very very important I

16:33

won’t mention name but if you are

16:35

familiar with what goes on in the labor

16:38

party now a full lobbyist for Israel is

16:42

going to be one of the most powerful

16:44

member of the labor party uh I don’t

16:48

want to get into names it’s not

16:50

important the name is not important what

16:52

is important that for 100 years people

16:55

who were part of the organization of the

16:58

lobbying for Zionism later for Israel

17:01

also played a very important role in

17:04

British politics and so no contradiction

17:07

in representing the interests of a

17:09

foreign country and a and a foreign

17:12

State and a state that commits crimes

17:14

against humanity and war crimes and at

17:17

the same time serving ASI civil servants

17:21

or politicians of of Britain everybody

17:24

says well when you’re going into this

17:26

you are going into the territory of

17:29

conspiracies and that leads us to the

17:31

old accusations of anti-Semitism against

17:34

the Jews no this is why we write books

17:36

like this this is why we insist that

17:39

this is a scholarly work pedantic work

17:43

that is not falling into any conspiracy

17:46

theories is just examining the evidence

17:49

in history to show that this is a

17:52

connection that is problematic not just

17:54

for the Palestinians but also for the

17:57

Jews in Britain and they I think we have

17:59

now a younger generation at least of

18:02

American Jews who fully comprehend and

18:05

understand this problem and fully uh uh

18:09

acknowledge that this has not served

18:11

well the American Jewish Community to be

18:14

uh uh the ambassadors and ambassadors

18:17

for Israel and they just jettisoned

18:20

their connection to Zionism and many of

18:22

them feel that in order to show where

18:25

they are today they also want to take

18:27

full part in the solidarity movement

18:30

with the Palestinians so not just saying

18:33

Judaism is not Zionism our Judaism put

18:36

us in the Forefront in the struggle for

18:39

Liberation and freedom uh uh in in

18:44

Palestine a third point that I wanted

18:47

and I I follow your your clock very

18:49

carefully here so keep it

18:53

alive it helps me um I used to think

18:58

that Socialism or social democracy and

19:02

labor movement in Britain would go

19:05

together with universal values that I

19:09

cherish human rights civil rights

19:13

workers

19:14

rights and it’s only when I went into

19:17

the history of the labor

19:21

party before the creation of the state

19:23

of Israel and especially in the early

19:26

years of statehood when the the labor

19:29

friends of Israel were established in

19:31

the early

19:33

1950s that they realized how important

19:37

was this today I think we’ll call it

19:40

gaslighting you know this Social

19:43

Democratic gaslighting what do I mean by

19:45

this you have really the the pillars of

19:49

British socialism really the pillars of

19:52

British socialism who for instance would

19:55

definitely condemn aparte in South

19:58

Africa

20:00

fully supporting Israel to the extent

20:04

that any attempt to show as rather and

20:08

her friends would uh uh any sympathy

20:13

empathy a wish to repes with the

20:15

Palestinians the wish to represent the

20:17

Palestinian cause would immediately be

20:19

destroyed by these

20:22

particular leaders of socialism in

20:25

Britain it’s it gives you some kind of a

20:29

more profound and deeper understanding

20:31

for the Jeremy Corbin or the attack on

20:34

Jeremy Corbin it’s not a new phenomenon

20:37

there are Roots there of of social

20:40

Democrats by the way not only in Britain

20:42

in Europe as a whole providing a shield

20:45

of immunity to Zionism in the name of

20:48

Social Democratic principles this is far

20:51

worse than the new than the right-wing

20:54

support for Israel the right the fascist

20:56

right-wing support that Israel enjoys to

20:58

today and maybe enjoyed a bit in the

21:00

past is easy to challenge is easy to

21:04

deal with because you immediately say

21:06

you see who the Allies are of this state

21:09

who the allies of this ideology but when

21:11

the ideology that uh is being mentioned

21:15

and quoted to explain why Israel is

21:18

supported is one that you can identify

21:21

with as a human

21:23

being H then it becomes a bit more

21:25

complicated and it was very difficult I

21:28

think for anybody challenging the the

21:31

support for Zionism and support for

21:33

Israel when it came from either liberal

21:36

or Social Democrat uh circles and and I

21:40

wasn’t aware of this how deep it went

21:43

into the labor party even before the

21:46

creation of the conservative friends of

21:48

Israel who are now the most import

21:50

important Lobby for Israel in Britain

21:52

but how important the labor friends of

21:54

Israel not to mention the specific

21:57

outfits

21:59

that joined the TU the trade Union

22:02

Council the trade unions in Britain were

22:06

uh giving affiliation to pre-state

22:09

Zionist organization whose role was

22:12

before 1948 to advocate for Zionism but

22:16

the is Israel did not dismantle them

22:18

because it turned it into part of the

22:21

lobbying for Zionism in for Israel in

22:24

Britain so you had pure Zionist

22:27

organization

22:29

having full affiliation and membership

22:32

in the TU while any attempt to even

22:34

create a at the beginning a solidarity

22:37

circle with the Palestinians in the

22:39

trade unions was rejected as political

22:43

and unacceptable un unbelievable if you

22:45

go back to it and this is a time when

22:48

people already visited Palestine and

22:50

Israel it was at the time when people

22:52

began to understand what was going on of

22:54

course it became a bit more difficult

22:56

when it was easier to visit and easier

22:58

to get information what was going on but

23:01

even then it was not yet over for the

23:04

labor party to show unconditional

23:07

support for oppression apartheid

23:10

colonization ethnic lensing and nowaday

23:13

to not to speak openly and bravely about

23:15

the genocide in Palestine shame on them

23:18

and shame on this leadership that

23:20

doesn’t even have one word to say

23:29

but it has an historical uh roote uh uh

23:33

for this and I think it’s very important

23:36

finally I think that uh I want also to

23:40

be optimistic because it’s very clear

23:42

that what I was talking about up up to

23:44

now is a huge powerful Alliance first

23:48

included Britain then the United States

23:50

then multinational

23:52

corporation the Palestinians really I

23:54

mean were

23:55

facing an alliance so powerful

23:59

economically politically

24:01

strategically and it’s all focused on

24:04

the idea of this project of displacement

24:06

and replacement displacing the

24:08

Palestinian and replacing them it’s it’s

24:11

it’s almost incredible that they are

24:13

still there fighting showing resilience

24:16

and resistance this is also what my book

24:19

taught me once and more once more that

24:21

how how unbelievable is the fact that

24:24

Palestine and the Palestinians are still

24:26

there it’s not taken for granted

24:29

but what brings me hope and for me hope

24:32

I want to explain that nobody

24:35

misunderstand what I mean for me hope

24:37

for me is the end of Israel and the

24:39

creation of a free Palestine from The

24:41

River To The

24:41

[Applause]

24:51

Sea what brings me hope is the fact that

24:55

uh the powerful Lobby and the Alliance

24:59

were very effective when it comes to

25:01

politics from

25:02

above they from the very early on they

25:05

understand that all they have to do is

25:06

follow politicians at the early stages

25:09

of their career making sure that they

25:11

are allies in the later stage in their

25:14

career using money influence uh uh

25:17

intimidation if needed in order to get

25:20

whether the American or the British

25:23

political system to abide by their

25:27

demands how ever they find it very

25:30

difficult and always found it very

25:31

difficult to deal with the Civil Society

25:34

they know don’t know how to deal with

25:36

alternative media today they have no

25:38

idea how to deal with it they don’t know

25:40

how to deal with civil society with

25:43

communal action with boycott initiatives

25:47

with divestment initiatives all their

25:50

methodology all the Weaponry that the

25:53

all the Armory that they have is useless

25:56

it seems against people that should

25:58

gives us hope and the hope is that

26:02

probably this is not the only issue uh

26:06

in which the politicians of this

26:08

particular era are not representing us

26:10

well I don’t remember as an

26:13

historian at an age like this when

26:16

politics and I’m generalizing of course

26:18

that politicians were of such a low

26:21

caliber intellectually morally

26:26

corrupt shallow reductionist people who

26:29

have very little to offer their society

26:32

apart from their own careers it doesn’t

26:34

matter which party it’s really uh a a a

26:38

the age of of the the the the the the

26:41

lack of any status for the politicians

26:45

so their ideas of how to deal with

26:48

global warming how to deal with poverty

26:51

how to deal with issues that really

26:53

trouble people are not very interesting

26:56

and are not very successful and are not

26:58

very effective because they don’t care

27:00

about these issues they care about their

27:02

own careers it’s not surprising that

27:05

also their ideas about Palestine are

27:08

irrelevant and are harmful and negative

27:11

so we should hope that when people

27:13

struggle against this Lobby they’re also

27:16

struggling against Lobby other lobbies

27:19

that make their life miserable and un

27:22

and disable them to solve problems of

27:25

poverty ecological danger in injustices

27:29

in society beyond the question of

27:31

Palestine I think this explains why so

27:34

many people are galvanized behind the

27:36

Palestine question as symbolizing

27:38

struggle against injustices anywhere

27:40

else in the world as well and Palestine

27:43

is an indication that there is a

27:47

different kind of politics that we would

27:50

wish for ourselves for our next

27:52

Generations and that’s why so many hopes

27:55

are pinned on the Palestinian Liberation

27:57

movement sometimes probably un

28:00

unreasonably actually that Palestine

28:02

would be the you know the Paragon state

28:05

that all the other failed decolonized

28:07

world uh was unable to to fulfill but it

28:10

explains because this isn’t a demand for

28:13

a different kind of politicians and a

28:17

different kind of the idea what is

28:18

universal justice this is the Big

28:20

Challenge the icj and the IC are having

28:23

it’s not it’s not a coincidence that for

28:27

the first time they at least provided a

28:29

stage for what people think about

28:31

Palestine and not governments if you

28:33

think about it and they did it

28:35

intentionally I talked with them some of

28:37

them they did it intentionally they

28:39

wanted to show that trib International

28:42

tribunals are also listening to people

28:44

not just to the politics of power

28:46

hopefully this is just the beginning of

28:49

a process that would lead for a better

28:52

world first of all for the Palestinians

28:54

and then for all of us thank you

oooooo

28 Countries Joining BRICS With Names and Capacities: What Next? https://youtu.be/FVIed9MicE4?si=_vfShDyTvGrYqJtb

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1801924828506599636

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Dismantling Zionism: Frontline on the Student Encampments with Palestinian Youth Movement

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kVeJJxTewg

Ahmed Alnaouq speaks to Yasmin and Yara, two organisers with Palestinian Youth Movement, about the history of student solidarity with Palestine, the growing student encampment movement and the role of Palestinians in diaspora in dismantling Zionism. Transkripzioa:

0:00 – Introduction

03:57 – Israeli invasion of Rafah

06:16 – Israel’s ‘useful violence’ against Palestinians

09:09 – Who can we mourn?

10:41 – What is the Palestinian Youth Movement (PYM)?

12:31 – What is Zionism to Palestinians?

17:41 – The Palestinian Right of Return

22:25 – What gives you hope that Palestine will be free?

23:39 – Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails

26:23 – ‘The Zionist project is a foundationally genocidal project’

27:39 – SOAS student encampment for Gaza

32:32 – How many encampments are there in the UK?

34:04 – The encampments are a vehicle for students to be active

34:51 – What obstacles have students faced from the state and university administrations?

40:04 – ‘Are these protests threatening to Jewish students? Absolutely not!’

43:11 – How pro-Palestinian students are targeted

44:36 – How Malia Bouattia and Shaima Dallali were both targeted

50:18 – How the student movement has been attacked as a whole during the 2010s

54:18 – The Zionist lobby in the UK

57:35 – How the Oslo process fragmented Palestinians

1:00:50 – The student protests for Gaza now are historic

1:03:11 – Do we live in a democracy?

1:05:41 – ‘The Zionist war machine will fall because it is predicated on a logic that is baseless’

1:09:03 – ‘I have total faith that the students will prevail’

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

it’s necessary to dismantle structures that continue to oppress us no matter

0:05

what these structures or projects are and Zionism is also like I said like if

0:11

we situate it historically it’s also a project that is premised on white supremacy um and racism and colonialism

0:19

and like all of these different structures and that’s why Palestine is so important because of what it means for people globally like if we dismantle

0:27

the zist project then we’re also dismantling capitalism because the zus

0:32

project was essentially a project which wanted to find land that could be generative uh in order to produce

0:39

Capital because it was valuable land and in order to capture that land we need to the the idea was to get rid of the

0:45

people that live on top of it this is a moment where we’re witnessing like the reunification of the student movement

0:51

this is a moment where actually students are coordinating on a national level about Palestine and it hasn’t happened

0:57

in years and we have like the more experience now over all these years and

1:02

we’re going to be funneling that into strengthening the student movement but also because as long as the genocide

1:09

continues and as long as Palestine is not free we won’t rest because it’s our moral duty and responsibility and that’s

1:16

the commitment we make and that’s what a lot of British students recognize is that we have a responsibility and a duty

1:22

to say not in our name the institutional complicity is has to end and the brsh

1:29

British government will eventually have to listen and it’s not because you know of the negotiations it’s not because of

1:35

the conversation with the administration it’s because the power of the movement as a whole is going to also strengthen

1:41

the student movement and the student movement also leads the way um towards

1:48

that so hello and welcome back to Palestine Deep dive today I’m thrilled to be interviewing two amazing

1:54

Palestinian voices powerful voices uh here in the UK Yara and Y from Palestine

2:00

youth movement today we’re going to talk about the UK encampment the Student

2:05

Activities and work in the UK we’re going to talk about the history of student protests and the events uh in

2:12

Gaza first let me um start by asking you

2:17

about the news that we heard this morning from Rafa today the Israeli

2:23

tanks and army invaded Rafa after seven months of this genocide and it came actually after

2:29

Hamas proposed actually after Hamas agreed to the uh to the deal that was

2:35

proposed by by uh by Egypt and by katar and yesterday um when I heard the

2:42

news that Hamas agreed to this deal we saw some footage coming from Gaza the

2:49

Palestinians were rejoicing they were happy they were protesting they

2:55

were they were they were very very very happy and festive environment in Gaza

3:00

everyone thought that finally ceasefire will happen in Gaza finally the circle

3:07

of genocide and death and destruction suffering will end but in the other day we woke to the news that the Israeli

3:14

Army invaded Rafa and the first thing they did is that they went to the Border yeah to the ra

3:21

Crossing and they were destroying the RAF Crossing tearing down

3:27

the Palestinian flags and putting the isra Flags we heard some some news that many

3:34

Palestinians were killed at the ra RAF border and that brought us back to the

3:40

same circle of suffering of trauma that the Palestinians have been enduring for the past seven months it’s actually not

3:46

the past seven past seven months it’s been ongoing for the past 75 years so

3:52

tell me how you felt today after hearing the news of this Invasion and Rafa so

3:58

actually we kind of knew from last night we well we we heard we saw like the bombing intensifying last night um and

4:06

announcement from the Israeli War cabinet that they were going to continue with the invasion of RA despite the fact

4:13

that the resistants had um accepted the terms of the negotiations and accepted

4:20

the terms of the ceasefire and we know that the reason why um the and and we

4:26

know that the demands of the resistance have always been about like the release of political Prisoners the complete

4:31

withdrawal from razza and the allowing the Palestinians who have been displaced

4:37

unconditionally to return to their homes well to return to the rubble and to begin the difficult process of

4:42

rebuilding life in Gazza but it’s also like as as obviously as um as shocking

4:52

and as as brutal and violent and um demoralizing the images are of like the

4:58

tanks coming in and bulldozing around the ra Crossing this is The Logical

5:03

conclusion of you know how how the genocide has unfolded over the last s

5:09

months and we know that we know that also this whole process of the negotiations has been a complete sham

5:16

because the US and the CIA and all these parties that are supposed to be you know

5:21

mediating this process have obviously been green lighting and despite the public claims of you know the US

5:28

government’s uh rejection or like disapproval of the plan to invade we know that they’ve been greenlighting the

5:34

genocide every step of the way um but this just proves once again that like

5:40

what this genocide has been about since since October 7th has been about destroying and decimating every aspect

5:47

of life in Gazza and punishing Palestinian people for choosing to resist the occupation for choosing to

5:54

resist 17 years of Siege over 76 like we’re a week away from the 6th

6:00

commemoration of Thea and over 100 Years of brutal occupation and so it’s yeah

6:08

hope yeah but but the Israeli Army saying that they are invading rafah now

6:14

because they want to destroy the last four Battalion of Hamas of alasam

6:19

brigades but in fact what we see is that every time they invade a city in in Gaza

6:26

when they for example invaded kanun they said they want to destroy Hamas but what we have seen is that they destroyed the

6:32

Palestinian infrastructure they have entered the hospital they have demolished hospitals killed doctors

6:39

nurses patients people civilians women and children now they’re saying that they’re entering they’re entering uh RAF

6:47

they’re invading rafah because they want to destroy Hamas do you believe that this is a tactic that the zionists have

6:54

used from the establishment of the Zionist entity and it’s it’s a way to

7:00

create a legitimate Target in order to sustain the system of domination and this is something actually why I really

7:06

value um studying because it’s actually something that I’ve managed to learn through a master’s program that I’m

7:12

doing this year and it’s there there is a concept called useful violence which is basically the concept of like of

7:19

bombing daily infrastructure bombing ambulances mosques schools um like daily

7:25

daily um infrastructure in order to create this this image that Palestinians

7:30

are a threat and in order to kind of create this separation between civilians and the military and or the resistance

7:38

um so this is actually like a way to create a legitimate Target and to kind of depict Palestinians as subhuman or

7:46

infrahuman um to basically justify the daily bombing no matter where it is if it’s children or not children or whoever

7:53

it may be but it’s basically to create uh like racialized subjects that’s

7:59

that’s how Israel sustains itself as um that was actually very very clear from the the words and the comments of the

8:05

Israeli officials they say that no one in Gaza is innocent even the children in

8:10

Gaza are are not innocent they say that the innocent that the the civilians in

8:16

Gaza they supported Hamas they elected Hamas and thus they deserve this the suffering the the the killing and they

8:23

also say that the children in Gaza Are Not Innocent because one day they will grow

8:28

up and they will be like they will fight Israel how do you see that yeah I mean

8:35

also something that we have to also look at is the fact that like most of the people that have that are leading the

8:42

resistance are actually orphans who’ve lost um their parents as Martyrs in

8:48

previous assaults on and like this is just a fact that we have to contend with and that I mean it’s also we just have

8:55

to trace back historically like how the resistance has been made up and who it’s composed of and it’s composed of

9:01

children of martys and that also just a cycle that repeats itself for as long as the Zionist project continues yeah and I

9:07

guess also on the point around innocence regardless of whether Palestinians choose to resist they’re going to be

9:13

crushed by Zionism anyway they’re going to be crushed by the support of us imperialism because they POS because in

9:21

of themselves like their political existence poses a threat to the Zionist project it poses a threat to the idea

9:28

that um like Zionism will never be satisfied unless it keeps on taking on more land and so the idea of innocence

9:36

in of itself and the fact that like everyone everyone in GZA has been a legitimate Target to the zionists for a

9:43

very long time and what we’ve seen in the last seven months is the intensif intensification of that logic in a way

9:50

where like there is no like it is has it has never been clearer like in any

9:55

historical period since the beginning of the occupation of pal Ian land that it

10:01

is either that you are with the side of the occupier and the oppressor or you are on the right side of history with

10:06

the people who have been dispossessed and displaced for 100 years and so like one of the things we always try to do in

10:13

in the pal Palestinian youth movement is like challenge this challenge this idea that you know we can only mourn

10:21

particular Martyrs in our community we should be able to mourn the losses of our entire Community tell me more about

10:27

Palestine youth movement um so the Palestinian youth movement is a transnational Grassroots Base building

10:34

movement and we’re made up of Palestinian and Arab Youth and Exile as the um as a result of the settler

10:40

colonization of our homeland so we actually see Zionism as a global phenomenon and it’s something that we

10:47

need to confront from wherever we are it’s not just something that manifests like intine like on the ground it’s

10:53

something that is a global project and it’s in it’s inherently linked to

10:58

imperialism and it’s something that we actually need to confront and fight from wherever we are and that’s actually

11:04

something that is like it’s super linked to student movement which is what we’re going to talk about today because we

11:10

also we have a philosophy around the role of student movement and how students also need to be fighting and

11:16

confronting Zionism where they are which is on their universities because universities are a site where

11:23

imperialism is reproduced like it’s an in these institutions especially in this country but all over um it I I find it

11:31

really difficult to say Colonial legacies because uh colonialism is very much maintained um and I can also talk a

11:38

bit about that soon but um but yeah I think the way that we understand

11:43

students as one of our fronts which is like lenses through which we see see our work is um basically that students have

11:51

historically been at the Forefront of social and political movements and have been kind of like the nucleus or the

11:58

core to um to revolutionary change and this is actually um what we’re seeing

12:03

like with the encampments all across the globe like in over 142 encampments across the globe is a testament to that

12:09

we we will come back to the to these protest student protest but let me take you back to a word that you just said

12:16

you said that Zionism is a global phenomenon for some people Zionism means

12:21

the Jewish right to self determination mhm how do you view Zionism what does

12:27

Zionism mean to you as a pales iion Zionism to me really needs to be

12:33

situated in history and we need to see Zionism as a continuation of two

12:38

Traditions so Zionism was actually inspired by European uh nationalisms

12:45

that were occurring at the time of when like Jewish movements in Europe were basically trying to think of like how to

12:52

resolve the issue of anti-Semitism and there were two

12:57

solutions essentially one of them to assimilate in the in the Societies in

13:02

which they were already living in and the other one was a state building project which was the establishment of

13:07

Israel so for me that’s exactly like how I understand Zionism like it’s a project

13:12

that culminated from that specific history and it’s not and it’s not something that like we can’t really

13:18

conceptualize like we actually just need to look back at like how it was formed and deconstruct that in order to be UN

13:24

in order to be able to understand it um so that’s kind of like how it’s a very

13:29

new it’s a very new project like it’s not very old um which means that it’s easier to understand how to dismantle it

13:36

as well why do you feel that you want to dismantle it is it necessary to dismantle

13:42

Zionism I think I think it’s necessary to dismantle structures that continue to

13:49

oppress us no matter what these structures or projects are and Zionism

13:55

is also like I said like if we situate it historically it’s also a project that is premised on white supremacy um and

14:02

racism and colonialism and like all of these different structures and that’s why Palestine is so important because of

14:09

what it means for people globally like if we dismantle the zus project then we’re also dismantling capitalism

14:16

because the zus project was essentially a project which wanted to find land that

14:21

could be generative uh in order to produce Capital because it was valuable land and in order to capture that land

14:28

we need to the the idea was to get rid of the people that live on top of it okay because of how valuable that land was

14:35

and like the geopolitical interest in that land so basically what I kind of going back to what I was saying earlier

14:41

in the podcast was about how like Palestinian life has to be reduced and the way that Palestinian life is seen is

14:47

as waste because it’s like it’s Surplus because it’s extra and we need to get

14:53

rid of Palestinian life in order to take that land and use it for this project so that’s kind of the way sorry the way

14:59

that I understand the Zionist project and like why it needs to be dismantled in order to actually get rid of all of

15:05

these structures that continue to dominate a certain group of people your family came from

15:11

yafa yeah and Zionism which Yar is talking about deprived you from your

15:18

right to live in your ancestral Homeland in yafa yeah yeah um so my family is from

15:27

uh town called man and which I believe now is like a bulldozed car park and theme park or

15:35

like a football stadium or something ridiculous like that sits on top of where uh my family used to live but I

15:43

guess also um I think for me like dismantling Zionism and and the right to

15:51

return and like the resolution to the misery of our people in the camps in like libnan and and s Syria and Jordan

16:00

all these places also means like um understanding that the Zionist project

16:07

the Exile of our people the Exile of my family also necessarily depends on the

16:12

support of like the British government the supports of the US government and like historically Zionism has never been

16:18

like an isolated movement like the we obviously know like historic the historical importance of Lord balfor in

16:24

the balur Declaration but beyond that like the the actual ideologies the

16:30

Practical like infrastructure that made design this project in Palestine possible was was was his like absolutely

16:39

dependent on the support of European Colonial powers and later the support of the US Empire and so the reason why I

16:47

think like for the last seven months the Palestinian cause has gripped so many people is because it is absolutely tied

16:55

to the to the liberation of all people because Zionism is like one element or

17:02

like one manifestation of these like forces that are wreaking havoc across

17:07

the globe you know and and so when when I think about like the dispossession of

17:13

my family when I think about my right to return I also think about like the like

17:19

life conditions in a lot of places in the world including in this country getting better actually when we see the

17:25

dismantling of Zionism some some people would as assumed would assume that calling for

17:31

the right of return m is illogical it’s unpractical it’s like you’re

17:37

asking too much that and you know I’m also from from from

17:44

yaf yeah and my mother came from B saah and every time we talk about the right of

17:49

return or dismantling Zionism people would think that we are crazy we’re too

17:54

dreamy and this is not going to happen and this is not actually helpful to the pales Ians and we should just settle uh

18:00

in wherever we are in Gaza or the West Bank how do you respond to that do you think it’s actually logical to call for

18:06

the right of return I think it’s the only logical thing to call for because

18:12

what even after everything that that’s happening in Gaza yeah yeah because what

18:17

the right of return actually means is the is end suspending completely the

18:23

conditions that our people are living in because what we what we need to understand is that we’re regardless of

18:29

whether you’re calling for the right of return regardless of whether you’re uh calling for the dismantle dismantling of

18:36

Zionism the the Zionist entity is not going to rest until it completely until

18:43

like all Palestinians are dispossessed from their land and that’s what we’ve seen over the last 30 years you know we

18:48

know historically this choice of like giving up on the question of right on the right of return was tried and tested

18:56

and we’ve seen how much that failed with expansion with with the exponential expansion of settlements in the West

19:01

Bank with the with the brutal like containment of razza uh in completely

19:08

isolated and so despite like how brutal the conditions the violence that our people

19:15

are facing capitulating in the face of that is absolutely not an option because what

19:20

has happened historically is that when when there was capitulation not only did

19:26

we like lose so so many more of our people as Martyrs not only did we lose so much more land but we also lost

19:33

political institutions that facilitated our uh the organization of our society

19:40

it facilitated the uh our ability to to like Advance our struggle because you

19:46

know it’s what is that phrase that uses it’s like a conversation between the

19:52

neck and the sword there’s no choice you know the Empire will crush you anyway as

19:57

like Muhammad put it so whenever like we get we get questions like these all the

20:04

times like this seems so far-fetched this seems like something that is like not achievable I think like also even I

20:12

would say even that that’s like an implication of like how um pal the Palestinian movement is also organized

20:18

in the west because like the the solidarity framework has been dominant and one of the main interventions we

20:23

make in the Pym is that Palestinians and Arabs in the west are not in solidarity with their siblings on the ground you

20:29

are part of the struggle this struggle your condition in Exile in the west is a

20:35

result of the colonial condition that is facing your people you’ve been expelled so you can’t be in solidarity with your

20:41

siblings on the ground you’re in the same struggle you’re on a different front line and what we need to do is rebuild our our institutions rebuild our

20:49

movement so that we’re able to lead and we’re able to lead in a way that like can ground the Palestinian movement as

20:56

also a part of like the international tradition in in this country the reason

21:01

why the Palestinian movement is so uh is so like embedded and you know we see

21:07

hundreds of thousands of people coming onto the streets is because historically uh like you know or institutions like

21:14

gups like the general Union of the Palestinian students had a strong presence in London that built the

21:19

foundations of that and around that you had Palestine solidarity campaign emerg

21:24

way back in the day you had these in like solidarity organizations emerge but

21:30

our role is is is fundamental and we need to rebuild that commitment that

21:35

discipline that sacrifice to festine because without it there isn’t going to be Liberation and and that’s what we

21:41

learn actually from the people in Gazza you’re talking about the

21:47

liberation of Palestine yes I want to ask you again about this question

21:54

because for us Palestinians we are

22:00

always talking about the liberation of Palestine as it is something that is certain that will happen no matter what

22:07

what gives you hope that one day what Palestine will be free that’s a really

22:12

good question I think we have a responsibility as Youth and as youth in

22:18

Exile to maintain a sense of revolutionary optimism and I feel like

22:24

where I’ve learned this sense of revolutionary optimism the most is through Reading um um testimonies from

22:30

our prisoners and I feel like if if if our prisoners who we view as like the

22:36

compass of our struggle we look to them to know the direction of our struggle if they still despite all of the conditions

22:42

that they face as a result of their resistance to um to

22:48

Zionism if they are able to maintain that optimism that we will be free I

22:53

feel like it’s our responsibility to uphold the line that our political prisoners hold and I do believe that we

22:59

will see Liberation especially now like it’s the prisoner struggle is Central to what is happening right now and I think

23:06

that’s actually something that’s not really looked at a lot in the analysis that we’re seeing which is like really

23:11

important for us to reenter and to refocus the struggle around but that is why I believe that we will see a free

23:18

Palestine because of of our prisoners and we need to look to them and that’s what inspires me the

23:25

most why do you think Israel like put these these Palestinians in prison the

23:30

first time because in the west here when we talk about Palestinian prisoners they don’t know that many many of these

23:36

prisoners are children they don’t know that hundreds or maybe thousands of these prisoners are put there in

23:43

administrative detention without trial or without a charge tell me more about these prisoners I mean historically all

23:50

projects that are centered around imperialism need to construct a certain

23:56

type of person and to Cate oriz people and classify them in order to control them like it’s a way of policing people

24:03

it’s a way of managing and controlling people and that’s why prisoners are painted as terrorists so like I think I

24:11

would reject anything a lot of things and a lot of the Frameworks that like

24:17

that we are like we taking from Western he hegemony yeah can I also say

24:22

something about the prisoners yeah I think um so like I guess also so what

24:29

we’ve seen in the last 7 months is like thousands of like the number of our Prisoners has doubled right like now

24:35

there’s like over there’s like around 9,400 I think was the most recent number that I saw it probably is more um and

24:44

we’ve seen like an intentional policy of um of like the the occupation forces

24:51

when they enter an area like Mass detaining people like humiliating like genocidal conditions of

24:58

imprisonment like and the testimonies we’ve heard from our our elders the children everyone in society who’s been

25:05

detained are harrowing but I think like there are two there are two tactics

25:11

maybe that we can think about like in terms of imprisonment first we see like you know these these Mass detentions and

25:18

the way and and this is like you know the British Empire did it the the US Army did it in Vietnam like the this

25:24

Mass Detention of people um to isolate them completely from the rest of society to like basically Collective punishment

25:33

like Mass detention as a way to punish the population for the acts of the resistance is like a classic tactic that

25:38

we see but also what we’ve seen is that there’s an intentional policy of like

25:45

arresting the leaders of our movements of our political movements because they

25:50

the the purpose of the Israeli prison is to completely destroy the capacity for

25:55

our people to exist on a political level and actually there’s a quote that um

26:01

from SMR where he says I’m okay with Palestinians in Palestine as long as they exist as individuals but not as

26:08

like a political entity as any people in the world we have the right to organize ourselves politically we have the right

26:14

to to liberate ourselves but that can’t coexist with a project like the Zionist

26:20

project because it is a genocidal project it’s foundationally a genocidal project and it is inspired by genocidal

26:27

projects of like European colonialism and is supported now by the biggest like Mass murdering force on the planet which

26:34

is the US Empire so so actually the prisoners of of our struggle like they

26:41

capture all of that in their struggle because they’re in the most intimate confrontation with Zionism day in day

26:48

out and also they they lead us in so many ways like they they um they were

26:54

United across factions across geographies before the rest of Palestinian Society became as United as

27:01

that like in the last couple of years and so they lead the way for us as well and that’s why they’re so inspiring and

27:06

they give us hope um yeah so I think it’s also like it’s

27:12

about decimating the political existence of our people I would love to talk more about

27:18

this but we’ll have to move to the next uh yeah to the next questions because

27:23

that’s why we invited you to come uh you came from so encampment

27:29

yeah now so tell me about the environment there when was it set up and

27:34

why and tell me more about the environment how did you feel and and why did you do the encampment in soas um so

27:42

yeah students at soas started the encampment yesterday in the morning it launched and so our students essentially

27:50

started an encampment as part of an escalation tactic um because also I think there’s a misconception that

27:56

students in Britain haven’t been doing anything um in comparison to what students in the US are doing but I think

28:02

it’s important to see it as a unified movement rather than trying to separate the actions of students here from what’s

28:08

happening in the US because first of all like the encampment in Colombia actually took two months to organized like it’s

28:14

not something that just sprouted out of nowhere and the same thing that’s why we’re seeing kind of like staggered um

28:19

encampments that are starting up because it takes time it takes organization it takes structure to be able to sustain

28:25

and deliver these encampments um and it’s the same here and students at soas

28:30

have been organizing since before October um soas was actually where the

28:36

first Palestine Society uh was set up in the Hall of Britain and as in the first

28:41

University where it was set up and soas has always been a hub for where Palestine organizing has happened and

28:47

there’s been annual conferences for the community for academics for students and that is something that’s been facilitate

28:53

facilitated by joints within the Palestinian community and so our students have always kind of recognized

29:00

this history and this Heritage within soas and also like I’ve kind of seen the

29:05

shift of soas from being a super vibrant politically active Community with like a

29:11

booming culture of resistance to the changing policies within soas and the way they govern and it’s kind of become

29:18

increasingly neoliberal and they’re trying to confine students more and more

29:23

and in October they actually suspended many students from the Palestine Society committee and several alumni I was one

29:30

of them um and they they essentially wanted to eradicate Palestine organizing

29:36

on campus and it’s not just Palestine organizing also with the strikes like they don’t want students to pick it

29:42

outside the the front steps anymore they want to confine protest they want students to feel like they can’t do

29:48

anything anymore they want us to feel powerless but the encampments are a testament to the fact that students are

29:53

resisting these shackles and they’re going to continue organizing regardless of how much management attempt to stop

30:00

them what are your demands the demands that’s a good question um so like I said

30:06

soas has been building a campaign for a while and one of the demands is for soas to end their partnership with h

30:12

University and they currently have a study abroad program with h University to send their students who study modern

30:18

Hebrew there and H University is a really horrific institution as our all

30:23

zist institutions and they actually secured a tender to um basically provide

30:31

higher education courses to students there so that they could basically learn

30:36

how to be better soldiers while ensuring that there’s minimal disruption to their studies so they can acquire a degree but

30:43

also learn how to basically police Palestinians better how to carry out a

30:48

genocide against Palestinians better and it’s essentially to basically skill them up so that they can develop research

30:54

that can create weapons and use these against Palestinians and like that’s why

30:59

every Zionist institution is complicit and that’s something that students are now recognizing more and more and that’s

31:05

why we’re seeing actions like this against University so there’s ending the partnership with h University um calling

31:11

on soas to divest from all of their investments in complicit companies which is last time I checked was almost £5

31:18

million in complicit companies it was 44.7 Million when what complient companies so for example there’s Alba

31:25

Mal core which is like a chemicals company which which uh the Israeli military used to develop their Weaponry

31:31

um there’s also Microsoft and Microsoft have been involved in uh surveillance like against Palestinians in the West

31:37

Bank and among many more there’s also Sony Barclays which has um like

31:43

subsidiaries and arms companies as well so like there’s multiple different companies that uh are involved in either

31:49

like the Zionist entities illegal settlement economy or arms trade and that is what students are seeking to

31:55

disrupt these protests started from Columbia University and then we saw that they spread all over the USA now we have

32:03

uh I think War University is the first University that has a protest an

32:08

encampment and now another University Newcastle University and now now so us how many universities joined these

32:14

protest in the UK how many encampments we have in the UK so we have 14

32:21

universities currently in encampment 14 14 yeah I I’ll try to list them name some of them please can yeah list them

32:27

go for okay I’ll see if I can remember all of them and growing 14 and more more to come so at the moment it’s Sheffield

32:35

Newcastle Manchester Edinburgh abedine

32:40

um uh Oxford Cambridge leads UCL soas

32:45

goldsmiths have been occupying as well uh swans and that’s quite a lot Bristol

32:53

Bristol yeah yeah and and before before Colombia um started their encampment

32:59

there were six uh I think six or seven occupations as well so Goldsmith was an

33:04

occupation for like almost 2 months uh UCL held over a month occupation in in

33:10

like a big lecture theater inside the university Nottingham Nottingham um

33:16

occupied but they were removed like within a I think like within two days or something like they were brutally

33:21

repressed um and Leeds held a very long occupation um and and

33:28

um there was another University but I can’t remember I have seen that many students

33:36

who joined these encampments yeah were protesting they were not uh politically

33:42

active especially in Palestine issue why do you think these students join this

33:49

these protests at this time I think there’s I think a lot of students have been politically conscious but I think

33:55

the encampments are a vehicle to make them politically active because especially at a university like soas but

34:01

also a lot of different universities like people are attracted to like the political nature of universities um or

34:07

at least not universities but like the student body and um students don’t just go to study they actually want to

34:14

acquire a wider education and to understand the world better and these encampments are a vehicle to do that

34:20

because that’s why students are setting them up they want to draw in and attract more students to actually understand the

34:26

way that the university functions um so yeah I don’t know if they’ve been like inactive politically I think

34:32

they’ve been organizing for a while but like also it just doesn’t necessarily get as much coverage why has it taken

34:38

you so much to start this protest encampment we’re talking about 7 months of genocide why

34:43

now I think well you go first yeah I think that obviously like people were

34:49

galvanized by what happened at Colombia and that was like a model people wanted to replicate but I think also a really

34:56

important point is that you know the genocide has been going on for 7 months and students have tried everything

35:02

they’ve tried to negotiate with their University administrations they’ve submitted demands they’ve held walkouts

35:07

and rallies National demonstrations at the Department of Education they went to Downing Street they did all this and the

35:14

University Administration is not listening the uuk that brings together like the University’s uh administrations

35:21

the universities UK that that body has also been targeted with demands from students they’re not listening and

35:26

meanwhile the death toll is gr is growing inza like we have over 40,000

35:32

Martyrs which is a conservative estimate probably of the death toll and and students feel like this escalation is

35:39

like a necessary step now because the university has not been responding to anything else and so it’s a way for

35:46

students to to demand that the university responds but I guess like

35:52

also on the flip side students have been repressed really badly through through

35:57

different tactics like through things like the prevent Duty through things like suspensions through things like and

36:03

arrests and arrests like students have been getting arrested since the beginning of the genocide uh not just by

36:09

normal police but also by counterterror police so like the the nature of repression of the student movement in

36:15

Britain is like maybe slightly different to the us like we know students have been getting suspended in the US as well

36:21

but the way that what they did is that basically every Palestine Society on campus is registered with the student

36:27

Union the Student Union has like the names of like the Palestine Society president they have probably a list of

36:34

names of people on the committee or in the society and there have been instances where student unions gave that

36:40

information to the police or the university gave that information to the police and then they would get arrested

36:45

and so we saw kind of like a preemptive policing which is the exact logic of like counterterrorism laws like you

36:52

preempt a violent act when actually that is that what you’re preempting is

36:57

student students being outraged at their University’s complicity in a in a genocide so and this is happening in the

37:03

UK this is happening here not the US no this is happening here in the UK we haven’t heard anything about this in the

37:08

news yeah yeah and it’s so why is the

37:14

ignoring you some of it ignoring the demands um I mean universities also there is a cycle

37:21

when you’re doing student organizing and and you’re usually at University for 3 years so they actually just usually wait

37:27

for Le leadership who usually are in their third year of studies to kind of leave University and then there’s kind

37:33

of like a lack of institutional memory memory so people who actually hold all of this knowledge and have been in the

37:39

process of negotiations and understand the campaign demands leave University and then there often isn’t really a

37:45

process of like handing that over to the next batch of students so they actually universities rely on this and that’s

37:51

actually a gap that we need to fill and that’s part of our role as Pym here like we see our role as also part in down

37:57

that knowledge and bridging that Gap because universities rely on the fact that students forget because they just

38:03

go through this cycle every 3 years and have you heard from the universities do they talk to you do they

38:10

hear you yeah and I actually think that they are sharing tactics because for

38:15

example like UCL and soos have released very similar responses through their all student emails or all schoolwide emails

38:21

which has basically said you know like the the isra conflict

38:28

affects everyone we understand that there’s a range of emotions you can have this protest but keep it small and

38:33

peaceful and there’s this tendency to contain and to make things small and to make it um you know just something

38:40

that’s like not non-threatening or nonviolent and like yeah they they’re definitely talking to each other and

38:46

taking instruction um from each other and from the government in order to ensure that there isn’t something that

38:53

they can’t contain on campuses but yeah like they they resp respond in a way

38:58

that ensures that they look inclusive and neutral which is obviously not the case because students have been

39:04

submitting petitions and submitting testimonies to the way that they’ve been experiencing anti-palestinian racism

39:10

islamophobia um you know discrimination based on their political beliefs um so yeah like there’s been multiple

39:17

responses from the University but it’s been in a way that serves their interests rather than the students in

39:22

the US um the protest the student protest have been accused that they are

39:29

anti-jewish anti-semitic pramas and all of that are you receiving the same um

39:38

comments from the University Administration or the police or the students or in other words are your

39:45

protest threatening to the Jewish students here in the

39:51

UK absolutely not um our this is what we hear in the media all the time like

39:56

pramas protests anti-semitic protests people who are they’re threatening to

40:02

the Jewish students and all of that so I need to hear from you yeah so um so

40:08

actually the student movements here have been getting these comments and these have been the tools of silencing like

40:14

any pro Palestinian organizing on campus for years now and so actually the the

40:20

student movement had like the way the way that the student movement gets repressed here has maybe even like

40:26

evolved pass these like just accusations like what we’re seeing happen is that

40:31

actually like for example students who issued statements on October uh 8th like

40:37

after the bombing started like you know the what we what became very clear that it was going to launch a genocidal

40:44

project students obviously released statements you know condemning this and the way that many students were actually

40:50

suspended for the contents of their statements because saying things like um

40:56

we condemn like you know the the the genocidal Onslaught that is like launching in Gazza was perceived to be

41:02

like anti-semitic and so um people students were getting arrested for statements like this and so what we’re

41:07

seeing is that actually these these any arguments and this narrative is like

41:13

institutionalized in such a way in the UK that people like it it goes beyond

41:18

just like you know like uh the University Administration accusing the students of that the University

41:23

Administration is like actively collaborating with the Poli relase to like arrest students based on these like

41:30

false premises so and when you actually go into these spaces you actually see

41:35

that the these spaces have been like probably the only like comfortable and safe spaces for Palestinian students or

41:42

for students who are obviously like very affected by the genocide that they’re watching on their phones because it’s

41:48

the only like space in the University where these where like you’re it it’s

41:53

not like crazy and you’re not accused of you know supporting Hamas and you’re not accused of like these things Ju Just for

42:01

being like affected by it but even like the way that um the way that like the

42:07

tactics of repression on on British campuses as well is that like you target a few individual students you make an

42:14

example out of these students and you scare the rest of the student body and like for years we had a really vibrant

42:20

like Palestinian student movement in the country like especially before the pandemic and the way that the student

42:26

movement was repressed was through these tactics of like uh like there specific

42:33

Zionist organizations like UK lawyers for Israel um stand with us we can get

42:40

into the union of your students but these organizations like have like very

42:45

clear tactics that we almost immediately recognize when someone is being uh like

42:51

suspended or when the university investigation begins to like Target a particular student which we can also get

42:57

into did this happen to any of the students in the UK already yeah this has been happening to students for years in

43:03

the UK um so for example pretty much like everyone we know has experienced

43:09

either an allegation accusation or investigation based on anti-Semitism and we know that actually what the what we

43:15

obviously know that these are all these these accusations are obviously tailored

43:21

in a way to silence student organizing and it’s usually the exact same thing and so usually you get like this

43:27

document that like pulls a bunch of tweets or pull pulls different excerpts

43:32

from like a statement or an email that a student officer in a student union for example would have sent out or like uh a

43:39

a member of the Palestine Society will have tweeted from their personal Twitter account and they’ll pull these quotes

43:45

together and they’ll accuse the student of being um anti-semitic and therefore they need to be investigated and quite

43:51

often the student be suspended or will put on a leave of absence and obviously that affects your personal education

43:57

Journey but also it’s intended to isolate you from the rest of the group whereas what we’ve seen in the US like

44:03

before the Colombia encampments they suspended the entire SJP like as an entire Society right and so the they’re

44:10

slightly different tactics of repression and I would say that there’s something

44:15

about the British way the British University’s way of like targeting student organizing that is like more

44:21

pernicious and historically like if we wanted to get into the history of the student movement in this country that

44:27

that’s always been that’s always been the intention and the strategy so maybe

44:32

we can um talk about like what happened with Malia and like shali who were two

44:39

people who used to be the presidents of the N us like should we get into that yeah I would like to hear what happened

44:45

to Malia so I think the story of Mala is really important to the history of the

44:51

student movement and I think the story of Malia is actually the story of like how the the

44:57

the strength and the power of the student movement in Britain was attacked so viciously by The Establishment in

45:02

this country so what do you mean by the establishment of this country sorry for interrupting no that’s okay um I mean

45:10

like the media the government and the university administrations and like the

45:16

in the police like the institutions that uphold like the status quo and the the

45:22

conditions that allow the UK to continue to you know provide diplomatic cover for

45:28

Israel to provide the the Israeli army with surveillance flights as we saw like

45:35

over the months of this genocide and you put the universities in the same category yeah I would put the University

45:41

Administration in the same category as the establishment because you know um

45:46

university administrations meet with the government regularly and I’m sure they’re probably having meetings right

45:53

now scared of what’s going to happen because of the student move mement getting mobilized again

45:59

around and and and so we need to understand them as like like even when

46:04

students enter into negotiations with them we need to understand them not as people that can be reasoned with what they’re interested in is maintaining the

46:11

university as a neoliberal institution that is providing a consumer good to students not actually a university

46:18

that’s interested in the space being a a a truly a place of free education free

46:23

in every sense not just like monetarily but free in the sense that students can express their views that can get

46:29

organized can demand things of their institutions um so that’s what I mean when I say The Establishment thank you

46:36

can we continue to what happened to Malia yeah so Malia was the president of n us she was democratically elected um

46:44

and I started studying in 2017 so it was right after um her election and she was

46:53

basically targeted by the Zionist Lobby in Briton and she was targeted by Zionist institutions but she was also

46:59

targeted by the British government because she understood the power of the student movement when it was organized

47:04

and if they could and if you know progress if the progressive parts of the student movement actually took power of

47:10

the institutions like the political vehicles in in in the student movement

47:15

so student unions the national Union of students and and what and that posed such a threat because not only did she

47:22

believe in free education and like all these like local demands but also she understood the importance of

47:27

international solidarity and one of the main things on her ballot were was solidarity with Palestine was making

47:34

sure that we could pass as many BDS resolutions as possible across the country in universities and that really terrified

47:43

the Israeli Embassy basically that really terrified um that really

47:48

terrified the Israeli Embassy it terrified the Israeli Embassy terrified the British establishment because um the

47:54

student movement historically like if we look at at you know the anti-apartheid movement in Britain if you look at um uh

48:01

like even mobilizations against the Iraq War like in the early 2000s like students have always been on the

48:07

Forefront of these mobilizations and and and and the student Movement Like can

48:12

confront the the the university as part of like the establishment that makes

48:19

that makes uh that makes war that like participates in the genocide unfolding Naza and so what happened after Maya was

48:27

was that she was attacked so viciously even from within parts of the institution of the NS itself that wanted

48:33

the N to play a more conservative role in the student movement and she was also attacked by um by by the government

48:41

itself the home office did a massive investig investigation report into her uh and obviously the accusation was

48:47

anti-Semitism but um but the reason why I’m recounting all this history is that

48:53

actually like I was lucky because I caught the end of like that memory that memory of the movement

48:59

since 2008 around Palestine around free education and it’s been like really lost

49:04

in the last few years in Britain and so um and and what happened is that the the

49:12

way that so like we were talking earlier about the British tactics of like uh repressing student organizing and

49:18

student activism and I said they would Target an individual person but that represses the whole society or like the

49:24

entire campus and we saw the exact same thing so so we saw individually targeting Melia in like a very malicious

49:30

way but we also saw in the years after that like they started cutting the funding of the n and

49:36

so actually it like represents really well how imperialism works because like

49:43

you cut the funding of the N us but you also completely depoliticized it and so

49:49

the weakness the the weakening of the student movement started with the privatization of the University it

49:56

started with introduction of like surveillance programs like prevent that became mandated duties to every part of

50:04

the public sector of society in Britain but it also but it also looked like

50:09

targeting individual people for their political beliefs and it’s these three tactics coming together that represses

50:16

the student movement so effectively and so you know before before in the early

50:23

2010s there was like this massive wave of like pushing student unions which are like you know the Democratic bodies that

50:30

represent the student body at every campus on every University pushing them to become Charities so they so when you

50:37

when you become a charity your your orientation becomes about achieving your charitable objectives it’s not actually

50:44

about democratically representing the student body being a political vehicle for students to like think about their

50:51

position in the University think about their position in society organize themselves make demands of free

50:57

education make demands of like divest from genocide and so these structural

51:03

factors are actually what oppresses the student movement in Britain so effectively um and at the same time you

51:12

then you then see like so that that happens like I know the so Student Union where I used to work like it became a

51:18

charity around 2012 or 2013 and then in 2015 you get the 2015

51:24

counterterrorism and Security Act which makes prevent a a a duty and a an

51:30

obligation across like the entire public sector and then you get like the S the S

51:37

student union is investigated for anti-Semitism in 2018 because of like statements that

51:44

they’ve made and then and so you you get them they’re investigated now not only

51:50

by the charity Commission because the charity commission is a public body that has to abide by prevent and but why is

51:57

the Student Union a charity in the first place you know and it’s because the university has cut funding and so you

52:02

see like privatization securitization and then like the targeting through like you know

52:08

Zionist tactics of like you know we’ll investigate this person we’ll suspend this person all of it coming together

52:15

and and and then it’s like really difficult for students and meanwhile students are like gaining debt students

52:21

you also see a change in the composition of the student body the education becomes like an elite good rather than

52:27

like a public uh service that everyone should have access to the like um in

52:33

2015 there was like this massive student March that was organized and the slogan

52:38

was um no barriers no fees no something

52:44

and and it it really like brought together like the different elements of the ways that the student movement was

52:50

like repressed you know and and what they were confronting they understood themselves fighting for free education

52:57

but also fighting against the securitization of the University fighting against like the dep politicization of student unions and

53:04

like the N us and that’s why Melia Melia represented such a challenge you know to

53:10

to the entire establishment and and that’s why we’ve seen the N US be systematically defunded in the aftermath

53:16

and what happened to sheat was kind of like sheat delali who who was L who was suspended like this two years ago like

53:23

and now is coming to the end of her term um being suspended um and actually today

53:28

she N US settled with shamat um or like shamat settled the case with n us

53:35

um like that was you know the final gasps of you know these repression

53:41

tactics like she was basically removed as soon as she was elected because they

53:47

know like the BR the British student movement has actually you know led the way in a lot of ways like BDS uh motions

53:55

were being passed since the early like uh I think 2006 was

54:00

maybe the first um BDS motion that passed at soas I think it was the first one in the country and so you see how

54:07

like this has been like like a target for years thank you tell me more about

54:12

the Zionist Lobby in the educational institutions at

54:18

universities do we have a Zionist Lobby who works to undermine the work of the Palestinian and the prop Palestine

54:24

movement in the UK or not and are you terrified of this Zionist Lobby no I’m not scared because I think like

54:30

sometimes the ways the way that the Zionist Lobby gets described as like really conspiratorial when actually like if you just understand like how operates

54:37

like you just need you understand that like we just need to like out organize them so like the way that like like I

54:45

was saying earlier like the way they operate is that they just like feed off of like already like repr repressive

54:52

things like in education sector so like the privatization of the university the

54:58

securitization of the university and and which like Zionist institutions like it’s not like figments of like you know

55:05

it’s not like a mystified Lobby it’s like organizations that are dedicated to this you know that that do this work

55:11

like they all work together and so n us has been systematically defunded like I was saying earlier like the the way that

55:18

like these um the way that higher education has been privatized it it it

55:24

like completely like aligns with like what what like you know anti-Semitism

55:29

becomes like a useful accusation that is used to like silence any organizing

55:34

around does fite anymore I don’t I don’t think it’s like effective anymore I think it’s become a bit of a joke even

55:41

though obviously like anti-Semitism is like a very serious like phenomenon in our society and that’s like the tragic I

55:48

guess like nature of all of this as well is that like serious issues then become like conflated with become become

55:54

weaponized to like silence like organiz that is actually advocating anti-racist principles on campus that is actually

56:00

trying to build student power on campus and and and so that’s how like um that’s

56:07

why I think it’s like not that scary because like the solution to all these problems always comes back to how do you

56:13

build student power on campus obviously like the usual vehicles that would have

56:19

built student power on campus were student unions and student unions have been systematically targeted and so like

56:25

now we’re fronted in this with this like really big question of like what’s next for the student Movement we need to be

56:30

able to coordinate on a national level we need to be able to like build um

56:36

student movements on each campus but also bring them together with we haven’t had a student conference in years in

56:41

Britain it used to happen multiple times a year before the pandemic you know and so like these are the these are the

56:48

questions confronting the student movement now and and I guess like in in the United States you have like

56:54

institutions like the national uh students for justice in Palestine that are that play the coordinating role the

57:00

N us used to play like I don’t know eight years ago now maybe like six years ago and so it’s also like you know the

57:08

the students haven’t been in a privatized higher education sector for that long in this country either

57:14

compared to the US that’s been privatized for a very long time and so also like reorienting the like it’s a

57:21

reflection of what’s happened to also like broader the broader um um mass

57:27

movement for like free education for Palestine as well it’s just a reflection

57:32

like the student movement is also always like a reflection of that can I add something quickly yes to that just yeah

57:38

also like I think it’s really important to politicize fragmentation of the student movement because the Stu student

57:45

movement has been fragmented and Y like explained a lot of the reasons why that is and like why it was um like

57:51

orchestrated to be that way but I also think it’s important to to historicize as well because like fragmentation is

57:59

what the Zionist project has has aimed to do to Palestinians and that is reflected to that is reflected in The

58:05

Wider movement um in the diaspora and in Exile so even within the student movement like for example like after

58:12

Oslo like Oslo was was a process which intended to fragment Palestinians further from each other like

58:18

geographically like it split up into different areas and that made Palestinians um like separate from each

58:26

other physically like on the ground okay but that’s also a reflection of like what was also happening in Exile as well

58:31

so if we can’t be near each other geographically then we can’t then there’s also social fragmentation that’s

58:37

taking place but we can’t really talk to each other if there’s social fragmentation taking place then there’s political fragmentation taking place CU

58:44

we can’t talk to each other to get organized we can’t actually um yeah we

58:49

can’t organize together we can’t plan and confront Zionism as sharply as we once were able to do and what Oslo

58:55

actually did as well in the student movement is it it basically like kind of caused or like led up to the disillusion

59:02

of gups the general Union of Palestinian students which was actually the core to the PLO the Palestinian Liberation

59:08

Organization and like yeah that actually is like why we’re seeing kind of like a

59:13

rebuilding of student just sjp’s or Palestine societies and all of these different groups and that’s why we’re

59:19

kind of seeing fragments but like it’s really important to also situate that historically because that is also what

59:25

the zionists have intended to do to us and also because they recognize how powerful students can be like they know

59:32

that we also need to be fragmented because of the the the role that we’ve played in confronting Zionism

59:38

historically and like yeah I think if we’re going to talk about fear like

59:43

zionists fear students who are organized so what we’re seeing today with the encampment is actually like a re

59:51

reunification of the student movement and not because of the tactics not because they’re all doing encampments

59:56

but because the message is the same and the message is Unified so like we’re actually seeing like a building of

1:00:02

political Consciousness like across the student movement and like who recognize the role of their universities and this

1:00:07

is like the way that we’re understanding Unity within the student movement as well for how long are you planning to

1:00:14

camp at universities students are willing to stay as long as possible um

1:00:20

in order to as long as possible I mean a student yesterday said said indefinitely

1:00:26

and the point of this is to achieve the demands and to continue mounting pressure on the University

1:00:31

Administration but also like on government IND Administration as well like they also recognize that students

1:00:37

are kind of like unleashing and Uprising you know like this is what’s happening globally and I said at the beginning like there’s there’s over 142

1:00:45

encampments and Counting globally across all continents and that’s something that

1:00:50

like we actually haven’t seen in a really long time and it’s actually going to be something that it’s a historical moment we’re going to read about this in

1:00:56

textbooks like this is going to be something that we look back like for decades to come because we’re now

1:01:02

reading about the the student protests for South Africa and the anti-aid of

1:01:08

South Africa and the war in Vietnam exactly so are you inspired by these

1:01:13

movements that happened in the past yeah for sure and I think students are actually using these encampments to

1:01:19

learn more about that history like we also have seen students you know organize teachings organized workshops

1:01:26

and actually use the space to develop their own understandings of um of other historical student movements that have

1:01:32

advanced their political goals and have kind of like developed a vision for what Liberation actually means and it

1:01:39

actually starts on campus a lot of the time yeah yeah um for example like in

1:01:45

during the um intense like years of anti-ap partite organizing in London

1:01:51

there was a really famous occupation that happened at LSC and there was like a really famous image of like the gates

1:01:58

to LSC shut down with like a banner in front that says um this building is like

1:02:05

OCC occupied until like AP parthe Falls or something along these lines and I think students here are entering the

1:02:11

encampments in the same sentiment like we’re here until Palestine is free like

1:02:16

uh it’s 100 Years too long but also um I think it’s again like the the The

1:02:24

Logical conclusion of students who have been organizing for months and haven’t seen a response from the University and

1:02:29

so they have to escalate as well let me ask you now after 7 months of of this

1:02:36

genocide after 7 months of protesting mobilizing and

1:02:42

advocacy and all of this work and the hundreds of thousands of for protesters

1:02:48

who go to the streets every week and now the student protests and

1:02:56

and all of this work and still the West still supports Israel with with weapons with arms with diplomatic cover with the

1:03:04

media mhm my question to you and they keep asking other others the same

1:03:10

question yeah do we actually live in democracy in the west is this a

1:03:16

democracy I think that what the national protests and the the regular frequent um

1:03:22

demos have been doing is actually showing that the real power lies in the

1:03:27

streets not necessarily in the polls like we live in a two-party system and that’s not like Democratic for a lot of

1:03:34

people obviously and like I think that what the demos have done is actually shift public opinion and like without

1:03:41

the demos like people have been growing Consciousness because of turning up to

1:03:47

the streets and understanding and like keeping like their finger on the pulse and understanding what’s happening on

1:03:53

the ground and like really understanding these develop and I feel like this is what yeah this is what is actually

1:03:59

shifting public opinion and like does public opinion matter yeah I think it

1:04:05

does matter because like you need to build a mass base of people who are able to continue to confront Zionism again

1:04:11

from wherever doesn’t matter does it matter yeah it does but also but also

1:04:17

like it it let let me just please I I need to hear more from you

1:04:22

why does it matter because right now the public opinion I can say the public opinion is with

1:04:29

Palestine but still the war continues the jde continues the government still supports with the weapon yeah yeah so

1:04:35

what are we doing I actually think we can even bring this back to the student movement cuz what student movement is

1:04:41

doing is actually exposing the logic so like students are exposing for example

1:04:49

how they universities are implicated in Zionism and imperialism by looking at how it manifests in their in institions

1:04:56

and this is what we’re seeing multiple different sectors in in this Society doing as well like you’ve got parents

1:05:03

and families who are exposing like in their daily grocery shops like what products for example uh need to be

1:05:09

boycotted and why how they’re implicated in in the zist project for example and then you’re seeing academics also do the

1:05:16

same in their institutions you’re seeing youth groups do the same you’re seeing multiple different sectors and like for

1:05:22

example there are other formations that have grown for example like healthare workers cultural workers there’s various

1:05:28

different sectors that have actually looked into how Zionism manifests and shows up in their um in their sectors

1:05:36

teachers too like the genocide continues yeah and I think that there’s also

1:05:41

sometimes a sentiment that like we can’t control what the Zionist War Machine

1:05:46

does but like I also think that the Zionist war machine will fall because it’s predicated on a logic that is

1:05:53

baseless and as long as we continue to expose that logic it won’t be able to sustain

1:05:59

itself if that makes sense do you want to explain it better no you explained it really well sorry I

1:06:06

didn’t mean to no no I don’t think I I know what I’m saying like I think that like like I said at the beginning

1:06:12

Zionism is a global phenomenon and it shows up it shows up everywhere and different groups are looking at where

1:06:17

it’s showing up in their daily lives and they’re disrupting that they’re learning more about it and they’re exposing the

1:06:23

logic which just doesn’t stand it’s baseless and that’s how Zionism will also

1:06:29

fall yeah I think that um one of the most important like development since

1:06:35

October 7th is that actually Brit the British public is being confronted with the fact that like

1:06:42

the British ruling class don’t listen to them and it’s never been clear and

1:06:47

that’s exactly what you were getting at like that’s a that that exposure that tear and like you know like the status

1:06:55

quo is like there’s no coming back from it and I think the fact that like you know

1:07:00

hundreds of thousands of people mobilize on a weekly basis and and that is completely ignored and not just ignored

1:07:07

it’s minimized it’s like intentionally minimized by the government is is um is

1:07:12

making people like realize that this isn’t this doesn’t end with Palestine like the

1:07:18

government doesn’t listen to us on free education for the student movement doesn’t listen to us on like housing it

1:07:24

doesn’t listen to us about about food security and it’s about tying all of these together that’s how we’re actually

1:07:30

going to build like a strong movement and I think that’s what we’re seeing happening like what what I’m seeing is

1:07:35

that like the London renters Union is showing up to like shut down the Department of Business and trade you

1:07:41

know last week because that same department is that that’s where like the

1:07:46

contracts for weapons manufacturers are are done but it’s also the these are the same institutions that like block social

1:07:54

housing from like being developed like in a in a in a true like like Democratic

1:08:00

and sustainable way for a society so it’s also about like making Palestine a

1:08:05

local struggle and making local struggles International struggles because actually for years like in our

1:08:13

organizing we used to always identify the grfl fire as like a really important

1:08:18

like site of imperialism like that is here in in this city people were killed

1:08:24

by the same that people in GZA are killed by it’s a very different scale it’s a it’s like in

1:08:30

GZA you’re like at the sharpest confrontation with this violence because there is no space for you to live

1:08:36

there’s no space for you to exist under Zionism but here it’s a it’s a different

1:08:41

kind of manifestation of it but it’s the it’s it’s the same struggle like we need to be United across all these scales

1:08:48

let’s end with some messages that you that I would like you to send to the

1:08:54

students in the UK and all across the world to University administrations and to the government what would you say to

1:09:03

them I have total faith that the students will prevail I think that the

1:09:08

government is intending to intimidate students and they just won’t win because students have been tireless for the last

1:09:15

s months we’re in the seventh month of the genocide now and we kept thinking each month like will we be able to

1:09:20

sustain these mobilizations will students burn out will the organizing um just end and it just hasn’t because

1:09:26

students are motivated by by the steadfastness of the people of

1:09:34

and this is what they’re centering in all of what they do and I think that that’s something that’s going to continue and for as long as the zigner

1:09:42

projects violence continues the resistance of the students will continue and I just I really believe in that and

1:09:48

I think that no matter the attempts that the government and the university administration’s attempt to confine and

1:09:54

attempt to um prevent students from continuing this it just won’t work and I think that

1:09:59

students will win yeah yeah basically exactly the same

1:10:05

because um this is a moment where we’re witnessing like the reunification of the student movement this is a moment where

1:10:12

actually students are coordinating on a national level about Palestine and it hasn’t happened in years and we have

1:10:19

like more experience now over all these years and we’re going to be funneling that into strengthening the student

1:10:25

movement but also because as long as the genocide continues and as long as Palestine is not free we won’t rest

1:10:33

because it’s our moral duty and responsibility and that’s the commitment we make and that’s what a lot of British

1:10:38

students recognize is that we have a responsibility and a duty to say not in our name the institutional complicity is

1:10:47

has to end and the British government will eventually have to listen and it’s not because you know of the negotiations

1:10:54

it’s not because of the conversation with the administration it’s because the power of the movement as a whole is

1:11:00

going to also strengthen the student movement and the student movement also leads the way um towards

1:11:07

that yes and diara thank you very very much thank you so much