Nazio Batuen Erakundea (NBE) eta Nazioarteko Arlo Penaleko Epaitegia (NAPE) (24)

urt. 29

Spain, France: Free our Basque Country!

Gora Euskal Herria Astatuta!

ooo

ooo

Theodor Meron – From Surviving the Holocaust to Judging Genocide

One of the most influential international judges of his time, Theodor Meron, talks to Baroness Helena Kennedy about his remarkable life and career.

When the Second World War began, ­ Theodor Meron was a Jewish born boy of just 9. He survived ghettos, camps and unimaginable atrocities, but lost most of his family, finding sanctuary in British Palestine after the Holocaust.

Now, more than eight decades later, Judge Meron is a recognised world leader in both the scholarship and practice of international criminal justice—having served as the president of three UN tribunals, delivering landmark decisions on genocide and war crimes.

At The Conduit, he will share stories of his time as a legal adviser to governments, often swimming against the tide; as a restless diplomat, a boundary-pushing scholar and, ultimately, a ground-breaking international judge.

He is famous for his 1967 opinion finding Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank to be illegal under international law, an opinion he issued as a legal adviser to Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. More recently, he has advised the International Criminal Court on potential crimes in the Russia–Ukraine war, and in Israel and Gaza since 2023.

The founding institutions of international justice today face unprecedented threats. Meron’s life story could not be a better-timed reminder of the importance of accountability.

Transkripzioa:

3:57

Hello, good evening everyone and a very warm welcome to the conduit. Hello, my

4:02

name is Lily Blackel and I’m head of programming here. I have the immense pleasure to be introducing tonight’s

4:08

event with Judge Theodore and Baroness Helena Kennedy focused on Moron’s new memoir, A Thousand Miracles.

4:16

Judge Miron, Ted to his friends, was born in Poland and was just nine years old when the Second World War began.

4:22

Surviving ghettos, camps, and unimaginable atrocities, losing most of his family, he found sanctuary in

4:29

British Palestine after the Holocaust. And now, more than eight decades later, he is a recognized world leader in both

4:36

the scholarship and practice of international criminal justice, delivering landmark decisions on

4:41

genocide and war crimes. The founding institutions of international justice today face unprecedented threats and

4:48

Moron’s life story could not be a better timed reminder of the importance of accountability.

4:54

In conversation with him this evening is Baroness Kennedy, one of the UK’s most distinguished lawyers and a leading

5:00

advocate for human rights and social justice. I’m under strict instructions to keep her bio brief here. Um, but one

5:07

of my favorite of her many impressive accolades is that she holds 42 honorary degrees. Uh,

5:13

and was made a life peer in 1997 and appointed to the Order of the Thistle in 2024 for her pioneering work in

5:19

advancing human rights and social justice. I’m pleased to say that you too will have the opportunity to join this

5:25

momentous conversation between Ted and Helena towards the end of the event. Please raise your hand and we will bring

5:31

you a microphone for your question. I’m also very excited to say that there’s a new human rights community group open to

5:37

conduit members launching today, this evening at 7:30 after the event um is

5:43

their inaugural meeting which will be on the third floor in our Abuntu lounge. I’m pleased to say that the champions of

5:49

the community group, Kirsty and Hillary, who are just here, um, uh, will be welcoming, uh, conduit members to that

5:55

meeting, as I say, at 7:30 upstairs. And you can find out more about the work that that community group will be doing

6:01

and the ways you can get involved if human rights sound like your kind of thing, which I expect in this room uh,

6:07

is quite a few of us. Anyone who’s with us tonight as a guest um, and would like to find out more about becoming a member

6:13

of the conduit, please do come and talk to me and my colleagues after the event. We would be delighted to tell you more about the club and the work that we do.

6:20

Our friends at Stanfords are selling copies of A Thousand Miracles and a book signing will be taking place just here

6:27

um after the event. So you can buy your book at the back and then come and get it signed just here. But with all of

6:33

those logistical details out of the way, please without further ado, let’s give a warm welcome to Baroness Helena Kennedy

6:38

and Judge Theodore

6:51

I am amazed that so many people came in this rain.

6:56

Well, it was you. You see, they couldn’t miss the chance of this great man. No way. It was you,

7:02

I love I love I love I love the cover of this book. This is You see, you’re

7:07

seeing uh that Ted Oh god. Of course, I I I’m so sorry. Apparently, there’s a

7:12

recording being made and therefore it matters and my voice usually reaches to the back of most rooms. But, um, Ted,

7:19

Ted, you look so judicial in this picture. You’re very, you know, handsomely looking sort of firm and

7:27

wise. You know, I was I was visiting one of the mas graves in Bosnia.

7:34

Oh, this is what when this was taken. Yeah. Oh, and this was not a very cheerful

7:39

occasion. No, I know. But you do look very wise and uh and very judicial, I think. Um

7:46

well, listen, it’s really great to to have so many of you in this room. And can I just tell you, you’re in the

7:53

presence of a truly great man. Um and I I’m really glad that you’ve come to

7:59

hear. Great man. Oh, the truth is we’re in love.

8:06

Anyway, we we do love each other. is fair to say we’ve become very good friends since working together and I was

8:12

sitting upstairs when we were having a discussion with some of your team that Ted um being I was part of a panel of

8:20

lawyers and we were reviewing evidence um uh um for the International Criminal

8:26

Courts prosecutor chief prosecutor in relation to the terrible events in uh in

8:31

the Middle East um in Gaza um on the 7th of October and thereafter in the war

8:37

that that followed on and uh and um the court was going to pursue warrants in

8:43

relation to the leadership of Hamas. Um but also we were very secretly told that

8:50

um they had they thought enough evidence to pursue warrants in relation to uh

8:55

Premier Netanyahu and the defense minister Galant who’ led the um policy

9:01

on the war. And uh and so uh a number of us were asked to to look at that that

9:07

evidence um and to see our role was to really just as lawyers apply our

9:13

lifetimes experience to see does this evidence reach the threshold um for uh

9:20

application for warrants. Um and that’s a very different threshold legal threshold from the one that you need in

9:27

order to try someone or convict somebody. It’s a much lesser level of threshold, but it still makes demands to

9:34

make sure that you’re not there’s no sort of if you like um motivations than

9:39

my other than being based on the evidence and and a panel was put

9:44

together and there were two judges um distinguished judges um Ted Meron and uh

9:51

Adrien Sir Adrien uh Fulford who was a court of appeal judge here um and who

9:56

recently retired at that time. and then four sort of sort of senior council and

10:01

then two leading academics and um and we gathered together. I had known Ted some

10:08

slightly because of our I met you in Oxford when you um came and you had dined at my college I think

10:14

you invited me to Mansfield. I did. I invited him to Mansfield because I was a terrible sort of fan fan

10:20

girl. I’m still a visiting fellow and you’re my visiting fellow and so I I

10:25

we had met and but I had never worked with with Ted and then um working on

10:31

that panel with you and I always say to everyone and everyone who was else who was on the panel agrees with me it was

10:38

being a master class. We all sat at his feet and he really it was really

10:43

witnessing a truly amazing and brilliant lawyer

10:48

cut through the detritus recognized the places where evidence was of such

10:54

substance that it couldn’t be um in any way ignored. It was a a privilege to

11:00

work with you on it. And uh and then of course we um we did that over a number of months and um I will never be

11:08

forgotten. It was a really changing point for me in my in my legal life but it created a great friendship for us.

11:16

There’s no question about the friendship. I think that you were really our leader in that group.

11:22

No. Um but I must tell you there were so many things on which we were exactly on the same page.

11:27

On the same page. It’s really true. Things to do with women and things to do with children and things to do with

11:34

women. Yeah. Particularly with the women. Yeah. So, let me just um uh tell you that that’s how we know each other. And uh

11:42

and I want us to go back because I do want you all to buy this book because it tells the most incredible story of a

11:48

life. A life very well-lived, but a life that has been full of both rich and

11:54

wonderful experience, but full of pain too and loss. And I’m afraid loss is the

12:00

price that we all pay for love. And uh and you it is true. And so, um, I’m going to

12:07

start by asking you to sort of just cover over that that piece of the your

12:13

early landscape because I mean, you were there. You’re a Holocaust survivor. Um,

12:19

you were a child in Poland, nine, running around and playing visits to your grandfather’s um, uh, warriors.

12:27

That’s right. And to the to the place which were great playgrounds for a for for a nine-year-old boy. and um and all

12:34

the the the the things that made up a really rather lovely childhood. And then

12:41

there was the day that uh Poland was invaded by the Nazis. Tell just tell tell our audience a

12:49

little bit about that experience and about your family. Your your big brother was a was some years older than you. How

12:54

how old he was five years older and it was just the two children. But you were but you had an extended

13:00

family and you it was your parents but you also did your grandparents and you’d aunts and uncles and so on.

13:07

How many how many how many survived? Very few. Yeah. I mean in your immediate family it

13:12

was you and my father and your dad. That’s right. Your dad. Yes. Of course. But it was sorry it was sort of

13:22

incredible change overnight. the Kalish the city where I was born was

13:29

very close to Germany and uh it was occupied by by the vermach

13:38

two three days after September one when sar’s army

13:45

committed this terrible aggression against Poland and my life completely changed from from pampered childhood in

13:54

a middleclass family. Uh suddenly it’s a total loss of

14:00

autonomy. Uh it’s a total loss of

14:06

being able to decide what you would like to do next. Uh the total

14:12

uh lack of schools and uh children to play with. Uh I found it extremely

14:19

difficult. I wrote a poem recently which was published

14:26

which I called he was a lonely boy and I spoke about the importance of

14:31

daydreaming during those days and how critically important daydreaming

14:37

was about sort of escaping the reality in which I was so much involved.

14:44

And uh it was these were horrible years. And uh and it had those years also had a

14:52

tremendous impact on me because one of the things that I missed most during

14:59

that period between the age of nine and the age of 15 was not going to school,

15:06

not having an education. And I still have tremendous holes in my education

15:11

which I would be ashamed to admit to you. How’s your algebra?

15:18

Horrible. Horrible. But there are things like uh remembering

15:24

how many days a month has one of those

15:29

things which you didn’t learn the rhyme. You know 30 30 days has September,

15:35

April, June and November. No, you have to be a child of a certain age

15:40

to know this by heart. I know but and I missed that. Uh and then that uh

15:47

so I emerged from the second world war with a sort of obsession,

15:53

tremendous hunger for education, for being with people my age, for not

15:59

being only with adults, for not being constantly guided by the instinct

16:07

which was dominating everything, instinct of survival. Mhm. And it it was it was very hard. Uh it

16:16

was not an easy way but I tried to do it and I tried to to

16:22

do it in a way in which looking backwards and you know my age and I will

16:30

he is a man in his 90s I should tell you but we don’t have to take it further than that. 95 95 and that um

16:41

you you look backwards and you say to yourself, “My conscience is very clear.”

16:48

Yeah. Well, well, reading this book, um your your that moral compass that has

16:55

guided you in your life is obviously incredibly strong. Um I I I wanted just

17:01

to refer to the fact that I mean you describe in the early part of the book

17:06

that whole business of being turned into a refugee sort of almost overnight

17:12

having to take to the roads the the incredible business of you know finding

17:17

woodlands to camp in uh and to and to hide in um um as you made the long trek

17:23

to try and get to a place of safety. the the way in which an uncle helped you to

17:29

eventually get to the Warsaw Ghetto as a as a family. Not the Warsaw Chen ghetto, sorry,

17:34

Chen Stova. Chen Stoova. And then and and and then the horrors of what happened um to your

17:42

to your mother and father. Well, you your dad survived, but to your uh and your brother, your brother.

17:48

Um I mean the Nazis and my paternal and maternal grandparents. Grandparents

17:53

and all the rest. Yeah. and and the the you in your book

17:59

you’re incredibly you show in a way that often um is not

18:05

included is the way in which others too suffered those horrors the Roma um and

18:11

and other different minorities the persecution but but the shocking thing

18:17

that a third of all Jews in those occupied countries a third of

18:24

All Jews were murdered. I mean, it’s incredible. It’s just

18:30

extraordinary to imagine. I uh was invited by the UN Secretary

18:35

General a number of years ago to speak to give a keynote.

18:42

I I I have the date of it. It was the 27th of January 2020. And uh one uh

18:47

woman from Israel who came for the occasion by the name of Shahar I believe

18:55

spoke about her experience in the Holocaust. And she said basically her idea

19:02

the point she was making Hitler failed because I am here I have survived.

19:09

And I said to myself, well, if this is called failure for Hitler having been

19:14

completely unilated, a culture, a community,

19:20

those incredible numbers of people, no, I don’t think that Hitler has failed

19:26

in that respect. But

19:32

I have been asked over time to give a number of talks about the Holocaust. I

19:38

will give a few later this month. And I’m trying to put the Holocaust in some

19:44

kind of more ecommenical context because while there’s no

19:51

question that Hitler had an obsession about Jews and the Jews were

19:57

the primary target of the Holocaust. At that time the world genocide did not

20:02

exist. That’s right. There were others who were clear targets

20:08

for for an inhalation and

20:14

Roma is something that you all know about and we think about but take polls.

20:21

Poland was regarded polls were regarded as subhuman and Poland was regarded as

20:29

something very suitable for Hitler’s lab.

20:34

will take over Poland and Germans will be able to settle there.

20:39

And we don’t we don’t often remember

20:45

that more than a million Poles were slaughtered by the Germans, the entire

20:52

top clergy, the officers class, the academics.

20:58

And I think it’s terribly important when we think about the Holocaust and that was before the later development of

21:08

international law introduced through Rafael Lankin the word the term genocide

21:17

that that genocide was

21:22

in part implemented already with regard to non-Jews And had

21:29

Hitler won, I don’t know what remained from from liberal progressive Europe.

21:37

Yeah. And um so um I am trying to put the Holocaust in that context and I I I

21:46

often discuss I’m I’m um I still after all

21:52

those years unfortunately I don’t think about it too often because otherwise I would do nothing else.

22:00

I think how can we explain the Holocaust?

22:06

How can we explain that a country which has produced K and Bach and Betto

22:16

could be led could agree could be complicit in being led by a monster

22:23

and commit all all those crimes and live with it.

22:30

And um so in my talks about the Holocaust I try to talk a little bit

22:36

about my um mystery of the anti-semitism

22:41

which is also I think something which is very very difficult to understand.

22:53

You you went on an incredible journey as the war ended. You were only 15. You

23:00

were only 15. Your you were without

23:06

family really. Um your father had survived but for reasons

23:12

um of of the family. He didn’t make the journey with you. But you went to

23:20

British Palestine. Um I mean I think you were it was made possible they were

23:25

looking for places to um get people to um as refugees after the war and you

23:32

went there and you had an aunt and uncle and they took you under their wing and

23:37

they recognized that you had been without a childhood that your childhood ended when the wars when the invasion of

23:44

Poland took place and they uh and they really did give you those educational

23:50

opportunities which changed your life, but there must have been a hole left in

23:55

your heart over what you’d experienced.

24:01

Um I think that it has happened not only to me but to quite a few people who

24:08

survived the Holocaust that the first sort of reaction which was very instinctive not something

24:16

rational that you would think about is that for years after that you tried you

24:23

tried to forget. I never thought that victimhood is

24:28

particularly glorious. I did not want to think about it. I after the war I had I

24:35

suffered frequently from nightmares. So I did not I did not want to add to that. My uncle

24:44

and aunt in Israel were really quite amazing in providing me me with with

24:51

tutors for practically every every subject that you had. Because of my age,

24:57

I had to go to a fairly high grade of high school. And in Israel, here is

25:04

somebody who basically went on to to two or three first grades of primary school

25:12

and then has to go to one of the higher grades of a high school. And the

25:17

languages which would be relevant would be either Hebrew or English. And I did

25:25

not know a word of either of these. So this was this was a very hard time and

25:32

and somehow somehow it worked. I um

25:38

a very important need to hold it closer.

25:44

I’m terribly sorry. a very important French statesman woman

25:51

who whom spent some years in Avitz Mrs.

25:56

Simon veil Simon veil wrote a book called uni

26:02

alive alive yeah and she spoke of something which I and I found I was amazed by the similarity she

26:10

spoke of the fact that after she she was liberated from Awitz and returned to

26:16

France during the first few years in France she completely refused both to

26:22

think or speak to talk about about an Amitz and then

26:28

years some years passed and she reached the conclusion wisely that you have to

26:35

live the life that you still have. You have to laugh to form a family to think

26:41

not of those terrible things but perhaps to learn from them to know that

26:49

you should you should not in any way tolerate things in which you are

26:57

somewhat com somewhat or more than somewhat complicit with those things. um

27:05

um a famous professor of history in Oxford

27:11

gave a number of years ago a talk to the Kabat society in Oxford and he said if

27:19

I’m praying I am praying that none of us should ever contribute to things like

27:27

the genocide and that none of us should do the things or I think the thoughts

27:34

that make genocide possible because genocide and holocaust would not have

27:40

been committed were it not for the complicit for the acquiescence of

27:46

millions of people. Yeah. Now you you as you’ve described you were your your aunt and uncle were

27:52

incredibly uh supportive. you um went to the uh university and you got a law

28:00

degree and uh and you entered government service as a young lawyer and uh and you

28:07

ended up being in the foreign ministry and rose to great heights within it.

28:15

Well, I was very lucky. You were very clever and uh and very

28:20

studious and very diligent. Well, I had a lot of luck, I must tell you. when I finished the Hebrew

28:26

University and uh I had to during those uh four

28:31

years in the law faculty I also took a job because my family was did not have much

28:38

much money much money of that time and I was terribly interested in international law

28:46

and in public in human rights and I said to myself I would like to make a small

28:53

contribution to avoiding tolerating situations such as

28:59

in the 30s and 40s and I realized that I

29:04

would like to continue my education. So I went to my professor of public international law for whom I wrote a

29:11

fairly decent paper and uh asked for a recommendation and he gave me a

29:17

recommendation. And then I said to myself, well the place to go to continue my studies would be the United States

29:25

which they had a lot of they had a lot of international law. So I applied to eight universities.

29:32

Seven of them said no way. Send you down. We are not interested. And imagine I had one years and the one

29:40

years came from Harvard Law School. Well, just that little place, that

29:46

little place which was I called my book a thousand miracles and that was one of the the

29:53

very first ones and u I think one of the first ones was surviving what what happened before but

30:00

uh but the miracle of getting into I don’t know how miraculous that was but I’m glad you did go to Harvard

30:06

and then the first year at Harvard was extremely difficult my father was allowed under the Zen regulations

30:14

currency regulations in Israel to send me $100 a month. And I can assure you

30:21

that this was not even then a lot of money. And the scholarship I got, you

30:28

will not believe it nowadays, was $800 from Harvard.

30:33

Now $800 at the time was enough to pay the entire tuition. The tuition now

30:40

maybe 60 $70,000 whatever. And um fortunately my grades at Harvard

30:48

were strong. I I did not much like my

30:54

first um legal education which I got which which I found extremely sort of orthodox

31:02

conservative. Um you had to learn things by heart special rules of procedure. the

31:08

idea of having open book examinations did not exist at all.

31:15

So um it was really at Harvard that I felt comforted

31:20

with regard to my original project of focusing on on international law,

31:27

humanitarian law and human rights that a socratic approach to education which

31:34

which worked well for me. After Harvard, what was the next step?

31:43

The next step was sort of amazing because one day, still at Harvard, I was

31:50

working on my doctorate for Harvard Law School. I had an aeroggram from the

31:57

United Kingdom. Now, arog for those of you who are too young to know what it is, it is the cheapest type of air

32:06

letter. Flimsy, flimsy, flimsy, flimsy, flimsy, flimsy whichever existed.

32:12

And um I opened it and it was a a type letter with a real signature however

32:19

from her sir hauder. Now, Hersh Lauderact for any of you who are not

32:24

losers was a very famous um creator of if you like of uh contemporary crimes

32:30

against humanity and and did great work on that before anybody knew what it was. Absolutely. And before I mean he was

32:36

really very fundamental to the Nuremberg trials and so he writes to you. So he

32:42

writes to me and said, “I heard about you from one of my favorite pupils, now

32:48

your professor, Richard Baxter, who became later a judge in the

32:54

international court of justice, who recommended you would like to come to Cambridge, something called humanitarian

33:02

humanitarian law scholar. We will offer you second class uh trip

33:09

by a by an boat from Montreal. Boston and Montreal are not terribly far

33:16

away. And we will give you your scholarship will be 400 Guinness which

33:22

was a fortune. That was a lot of money. Yeah, it was a fortune. So I went to Cambridge and and I felt very very rich and and

33:31

very rich and lucky and um When when I was there, I finished my

33:36

doctorate for Harvard. I remember one of the sort of luxurious occupations I had at the time, Lord

33:44

Victor Rochild was a professor in in in

33:51

Cambridge and his wife Tessa wanted a tutor to help her with her Hebrew

33:59

and going from time to time to the Rothschild estate. That must have been grand

34:05

grand and the paintings were completely out of this world as you would expect from from Rochester.

34:11

So you were hanging out with a rather the the high end of British society. Well, not only high end but so it

34:18

happens that quite a few of the people who were in fact scholars either before

34:24

or after me in Cambridge were people who played a certain role in my subsequent

34:31

career. There was an Egyptian scholar whose name might be well known to many

34:36

of you, Georgia Bis who later became a Swiss

34:42

Egyptian very famous scholar of international human rights

34:49

whose daughter is now the empress of Japan merits etc. So

34:57

it was quite a quite an experience and since 45 the contrast between my life

35:06

during the war and subsequent has been an incredible in a way luxury and so

35:14

many of the things that happened to me were something which were amazing and

35:19

that’s why I called it again my book my your miracles a thousand miracles

35:26

have you actually counted them. The truth is that you No, but I had quite a few. You did have a few.

35:31

But I had quite a few and quite a some of them were um were amazing. I tell the

35:39

story of the famous flight Swiss air flight 111

35:45

easy number to remember where I was sort of commuting between my

35:52

main day job at NYU law school and Geneva where I had a professorship and

36:00

my wife was in Geneva working for the United Nations

36:06

and um I was flying and commuting every second week to spend some time with her.

36:13

And I bought a ticket and at the very last moment

36:18

um for reasons which were not terribly persuasive, I decided to change to

36:26

postpone my flight by one day and the flight 111 took off from JFK and when it

36:33

was not far from Nova Scotia, the plane went down the single survivor. these

36:38

things happened and and of course I one of the things where I felt that I had an

36:45

absolutely incredible luck on my when we when the main big ghetto in Chester of

36:52

the city where I spent the war was liquidated and we were moved those who

36:59

survived to have to a tiny ghetto at the outskirts

37:06

of the We found some kind of a very primitive

37:12

lodgings next to the next to the boundary of the ghetto.

37:19

And one day some people came with weapons.

37:25

They were Jews, Jewish resistance and told us we are going to dig a tunnel

37:32

here to go under the wires under the wires to get out from the

37:37

to try and smuggle weapons in and shoot something terrible happen to help people

37:43

escape. And um we of course were not asked. We they were they had weapons. We

37:50

did not. And um um one day the somebody

37:57

denounced what was happening to the SS and

38:02

I came home or what was come that from some kind of a job I had and um

38:10

and you were only I mean you were only a child really and the area was occasal

38:21

parents and my mother were taken out and shot. Mhm. And shot. And had I been at home 15

38:30

minutes earlier, I would have been with them. So I had I had lots of luck and uh I’m

38:36

very My my mother would have said your guardian angel was was working hard and looking after you

38:42

probably. But I was very lucky. I am I often speak to students about careers

38:48

and problems and I say one of the things that we ought to to to try and see is

38:55

the openings we suddenly see the opportunities. We should not let them pass. They are temporal. They will not

39:03

stay. The openings will not be there forever. They will close up. And so um so those

39:09

openings is the luck that I I had had abundantly

39:16

years ago when I was visiting fellow at also I said to my wife I would very much like

39:26

for my the last reincarnation to come back to Oxford and for a

39:33

permanent job and stay there and one day it happened Oxford asked me to come and

39:38

introduce international criminal law that was 10 years ago which did not exist at the time.

39:46

So I I consider myself a very lucky person.

39:52

You deserve as much luck as as might come your way Ted Marin. But let’s just

39:57

also talk about the important contributions that you’ve made. You went

40:03

into the foreign service in Israel. you rose to a high enough level where you

40:09

were a major adviser at the time of the six day war and after the six day war

40:15

you gave a very important piece of advice to the Israeli government.

40:20

What was that piece of advice? Well um I was very lucky too. I was just

40:27

before that at the beginning of the six days war. I was uh um in um in New York

40:35

in the Israeli mission to the United Nations and my previous boss in Jerusalem was a

40:42

famous public international lawyer um an English solicitor by the name of Shakai

40:49

Rosen. He for some reasons was moved to New York and there was an opening for

40:56

the legal adviser and here miraculously I am being catapulted from the job of

41:04

assistant legal advisor somewhere below below below to the chief legal adviser

41:10

overnight and I so I go to I move very quickly we move to Jerusalem and within

41:19

a few weeks After that, I see my first sort of test of fire. The prime minister

41:28

would like to know what I and the foreign minister would what do I think

41:33

of the possibility which was a major

41:38

program of the some ministers in the cabinet of establishing Jewish settlements on the on the West Bank.

41:47

and um um they wanted it urgently and I wrote an opinion of three pages.

41:55

I did not spend very much time on that. It was an obvious conclusion, an obvious thing to

42:01

I the um later when this opinion became known people asked me did you realize

42:08

this was a sort of existential questions etc. I said no. For me, I felt always

42:15

that the legal advisor has something in common with judges. They should call the

42:20

law that that the way it is. They should not try to cosmetize

42:28

answers, not to make them more palatable to people in the cabinet. It came sort

42:34

of naturally. I think it took me a day or two to write that. And my um um my

42:41

conclusion was that settling settling Jewish civilian

42:48

uh population on the West Bank uh would be a clear violation of the Geneva

42:53

Conventions of 1949 and and should not be done. Now the government ignored it.

43:01

Um I must admit that I did not see any repercussions or vengeance It’s a sort

43:08

of interesting thing. I think nowadays you might have actually found yourself receiving a a a whole kind of set of

43:15

attacks from Smotri and Ben Gavir at the very least. But um

43:20

No, nowadays I would have been fired. Well, you you definitely at least at least but but the reality was you were

43:29

um in fact promoted further and forward. Well, I became an ambassador

43:36

later, but I don’t know. I think that I am amazed that I was so

43:41

well treated. Mhm. I think people said, “Well, he’s he must

43:47

be a bit bizarre to give this opinion to the government. This is not what he was

43:53

expected to do.” For a few months, they hesitated a bit.

43:58

And the first few settlements which were established were quasi military because it was a

44:07

state of occupation and therefore a country can have a can have a military presence military basis

44:13

and then this was dropped. It was developed into proper settlements. This was somewhat of a fiction from the

44:19

very beginning. But the point the point of this this piece of your history is that what was interesting was that they ignored your

44:25

advice. um the your written um u advice was sort of buried in the in the annals

44:32

and uh and uh and disappeared from view and then a very assiduous academic or

44:40

researching uh um those times and went into the archives and found your

44:46

opinion. Yeah, that was that was quite amazing. I I remember I was visiting my younger

44:52

son who lives in in Los Angeles and I had a telephone call from somebody

45:01

I I will not say now who it was but

45:07

a senior British civil servant saying

45:12

Ted do you know you are you are all over the place in the New York Times today

45:18

and other newspapers and said, “What are you talking about?” I got usually being

45:23

in the news is not a good thing. But um he said there is a story about

45:31

the settlements and your opinion on the settlement which was discovered by a Jewish American

45:39

Israeli American historian by the name of Gerson Gorinberg

45:44

who was allowed as you say access to the state archives and was amazed to find

45:50

this and of course this was a very big mistake for the archavists. He should

45:55

have known that the opinions would be found. And apparently he was clever

46:01

enough Golenberg to realize that this is something that he should act upon

46:06

immediately before this before it disappears. Before this disappears. So he took a

46:12

photograph. He had a photo. He had a camera with him. He immediately took a

46:19

took um um took a photograph of that. I must say that looking back at my life, I

46:26

I sometimes am amazed that three pages written by a person who was 37 years old

46:34

uh had more sort of impact

46:39

on reputation on on real life than

46:47

than my 12 or 13 academic books which I’ve written.

46:52

subsequently and but but it’s something that makes me so sad. I think had the

46:58

government accepted your advice. That advice, I think that if not a

47:04

complete peace, there would have been reconciliation between Jews and Arabs. And the fact

47:10

that it was ignored, that the present government has has multiplied its

47:16

activity on settlements makes me um

47:21

sad. Makes me very very sad. and um and um I

47:27

believe a great opportunity for peace and the two-state solution was lost.

47:33

Given that we are with limited time and you’ve had such a rich and incredible life, I’m going to sort of take us

47:40

through the fact that you were an ambassador um um uh for a number of years

47:45

four four didn’t it didn’t appeal to you at all. You didn’t like all those champagne

47:51

parties and canopes and all of that entertaining in a glamorous way.

47:58

I did not think that it was particularly um

48:03

particular my cup of tea. I think you got more than cups of tea

48:09

but you decided it was not for you. It was not actually creating the kind of uh change and things that you wanted. It

48:16

was a great experience to in terms of learning something about international relations.

48:22

Uhhuh. And you then decided that actually you missed scholarship. You

48:28

wanted to go back to scholarship, go back to the world um of writing and

48:34

books and study and you did. So you were for a number of years in sort of leading

48:42

positions in American universities. And uh I want to take us to then the big

48:50

shift. How did you become a judge? Um it was um it’s it’s really quite a

48:59

story like most things in my life. It’s a question of opportunity and luck and

49:05

things that happened. I was uh at that time

49:12

visiting professor at Berkeley in California. Before that I started working on

49:19

international criminal justice. I was a member of the US delegation to the conference in Rome which adopted the

49:27

statute of the international criminal court. I was in the famous Copenhagen

49:33

conference on human dimension which looked at the progress and reforms

49:40

in human rights which under Gorbachov were happening in Eastern Europe. Um and

49:48

I mean you didn’t you didn’t I mean I think it’s fair to say you didn’t lead a quiet life as an academic. you were

49:53

actually because of the nature of your um um expertise you were drawn into

49:58

quite a lot of international conferences, consultations and so on which I very much appreciated after all

50:05

was a newcomer to the United States and the fact that they have appointed me to

50:11

those delegations was something which I very much appreciated but let’s go back

50:16

to Berkeley that year the first part of the year I spent as a visiting professor

50:22

at Harvard law school. I must say I was very touched. It was a poant moment that

50:27

after um the tremendous contribution that Harvard made to my education, they

50:33

invited me as visiting professor. So I really appreciate that. And then I

50:38

was in Barclay and my wife Monique was with me and we tried to spend most of

50:44

the weekends exploring the glorious coast of California and and see the sea

50:54

animals. It was quite quite an experience. And one day I had a um I was contacted by

51:02

the state department and um um they said we have a problem

51:09

with Iran. Iran has been attacking our commercial shipping in the Gulf and

51:17

just for something new and we have we have responded by

51:23

attacking something called oil platforms of Iran and now they’re taking us

51:29

imagine to the international court of justice and we would very much benefit

51:35

from your opinions on a number of issues. So they send me questions and

51:40

since I promised my wife that we will be traveling during the weekend, I had a yellow part like that and whenever I had

51:48

an idea about something, I would stop, write it down and so on and this lasted

51:53

about two or three months and then um note from the most senior civil servant

52:01

in the state department on the legal side. Uh, how would you feel about coming to Washington for a year or so as

52:10

a council on international law? Wow. State Department councel on

52:16

international law. It’s that would be exciting. But I realized that I had one

52:23

year sabbatical from NYU. So I had to ask the dean. He said that would be very

52:28

good for our reputation and yours and and you should you should go. So I

52:36

was there and while I when I was there the American judge on the international

52:43

on the on the special tribunal for former Yugoslavia Patricia Walt who was a very senior

52:50

judge in Washington in the federal court had to resign to go back to Washington

52:56

because of illness of her husband and um the state department made an

53:02

announcement. they’re searching for a judge, for an American judge

53:08

uh for the job. And um I said to myself,

53:13

well, to be involved in judging

53:19

war crimes and crimes against humanity for me, who has in a way learned

53:24

something on the receiving side of those would be exciting. So I decided to

53:30

apply. I decided to apply and there was the

53:35

state department appointed a committee of five which unanimously

53:41

decided to recommend me and that was a long story about which you have read but

53:47

eventually luck again I was nominated because there

53:54

were some problems I was nominated I was listed as a candidate by the UN security

54:00

council And um and then here I was an exIsraeli

54:07

diplomat, a Jew, somebody who knew something about the cost in a way of

54:13

being a Jew of of being nominated by the United States

54:20

for criminal judgment. And I said to myself, if I fail,

54:26

it would be the last time that a Jew with my kind of background will ever be

54:32

nominated because the Arabists in the State Department would not appreciate that and

54:38

they would draw conclusion from my failure. And um I I remember there was a an

54:46

Egyptian permanent representative to the UN who said to my to the election

54:53

officer I had from the was supplied by the US mission. I read Meron’s CV

55:02

and I am quite convinced that he will be fair to the Muslims

55:07

and I’m going to support him and I’m going to persuade

55:12

Muslim states to vote for him and eventually there is a vote. There are 14

55:18

vacancies and um not only I am elected but I get

55:24

the third highest number of votes. And uh then I said to myself my my my

55:31

immediate reaction was sort of um

55:37

almost intimidation. How am I going to do a decent job? I have never except for

55:42

a case or two practiced law. So the last few months before I went to

55:47

the to the hey I tried to read anything I could about international criminal

55:54

justice about procedure etc. And um uh

55:59

how will I be able to dispense justice fairly without fear or favor?

56:06

And um those 20 years or so spend at the H were the most important, the most uh

56:14

creative part of my life because here we were really doing doing the after 50

56:20

years of international criminal justice not existing since Nuremberg being in

56:27

the first international UN court. Um it was um it was like um it was um almost a

56:36

utopian existence that you say I I had to pinch myself. I am really doing that

56:42

and after a year and a half or so it’s a colleague of mine said I want to tell

56:48

you some of us are thinking that we would really very much appreciate it if

56:54

you would present your candidature for presidents of the court for being chief justice

57:01

which you also sounded completely crazy but what happened is the French president decided to apply for judgeship

57:08

in the international criminal court. So I did and I was elected over time four

57:14

times for Mondays on the court and then three times in the following

57:21

following instrument. But one thing which really touched me very deeply in

57:27

terms of luck when the court was being created I was

57:32

one of the editors of the American Journal of International Law and I must tell you Helena even you might not

57:40

remember that at that time rape of women

57:46

in non- international armed conflicts was not considered to be a war crime. It wasn’t a war crime. It was not and

57:52

you know the the mass rapes which were committed in former Yugoslavia. So I

57:58

wrote I found it completely morally unacceptable. So I wrote this piece for

58:04

the American journal called rape as a war crime

58:10

which was quite influential but that’s not the end of the story. The end of the story is that as a very junior judge, I

58:19

was supposed to go on a trial bench. Yes, was this was the correct thing to

58:25

do. And that somebody was already designed to go to fill a vacancy in the

58:31

appeal chamber. At the very last moment, it appears that that person cannot go in

58:37

an appeal chamber because one of the other judges has the same nationality.

58:43

At that time this was no no no no. So I was disappointed. I never was on

58:48

the trial chamber which added of course to my being ignoramous in international

58:53

criminal law. But I was on the appeal chamber and the very first case to which

59:00

I was appointed was a case called Kunarak which pertained to a small

59:06

community by the name of Fcha in Bosnia Herzgoina where

59:12

and where the occupation unit of the Serbian army

59:19

was consisted of only privates, not even a sergeant.

59:24

And they they appropriated to themselves a group

59:29

of teenage girls, Bosnia girls, 23 of them. And

59:35

took them um and as sex slaves.

59:41

Yes. for um and um and we at that time and I was part of the bench and the

59:49

international law on crime was almost as backward as it was when I wrote that

59:55

article some years before some years before and although I did not preside over the bench needless

1:00:02

to say because of my earlier interest in that I had some influence on on the

1:00:09

judgment for example At that time, unless a woman could show that she

1:00:18

showed during the attempt when somebody was attempting she had to fight back. She had to fight back. She has show to

1:00:25

show quote unquote continuous resistance. Come on. A woman who will will show

1:00:31

continuous resistance will have her throat cut in one second. So we changed

1:00:36

completely the law and from use of force what we made as the main element of rape

1:00:43

was absence of consent and it was a great breakthrough. It really was. That was a breakthrough.

1:00:49

That was a breakthrough and I I it I hold it to my heart that you did that. That was such a brilliant.

1:00:55

Yes. I I’m very very I am proud of the Palestine opinions. I am proud of the

1:01:00

Kunara case of the of the because we were really the architects of

1:01:05

modern progressive reasonable international criminal law

1:01:10

which will for once take account of the fact that victims of war so often are

1:01:17

women who are being raped and and the and that rape is often a weapon of war and and

1:01:24

the silence around it uh existed for so you read during what was happening in South Sudan.

1:01:29

Oh, it’s Oh, absolutely atrocious. But I’m I I’m so lucky that I was part

1:01:36

of this of the people who had the opportunity to write the new

1:01:41

real change. Near change. Ted, you know, um I’ve been very very

1:01:47

neglectful in that. Um we’ve got to come to an end, but I want some people to ask some questions before we finish. Sure.

1:01:53

And we’re running out of time. So um look hands are going up even even even

1:01:59

as I’ as I mentioned those words Ted you are a hero and you have done so much in

1:02:05

your life and I know you insist that it was largely about luck but it wasn’t about luck it was about the fact that uh

1:02:13

your your brilliance your humanity your compassion your empathy all those things

1:02:18

have made you an exceptional exceptional lawyer an exceptional judge and a great

1:02:24

human being but I’m going get some questions in here from this audience. Can we have a rule? One question only

1:02:30

per person. One person by per and and uh and uh we’re going to do really quick fire. Sir

1:02:38

question. Hi, thank you so much for sharing everything I think. So um I run a

1:02:43

charity and we do cash transfers to people experiencing homelessness. So you won’t be surprised to hear that a lot of

1:02:49

my friends are very lefty um and progressive. But I found actually quite

1:02:54

recently a a pretty uh troubling quite scary opinion forming that you know the

1:02:59

collapse of the international war order right now it’s like good because it’s um very thin neoliberal veil being ripped

1:03:06

off because it never stopped the US from dropping Asian orange on Vietnam and

1:03:12

bombing 3 kilometers of residential housing in Hanoi, you know. So, so what would you say to that? I mean it’s the

1:03:19

old hypocrisy question which is you know I mean I mean is international law collapsing that’s

1:03:25

your question. Yes. You say is it collapsing and doesn’t it in some ways deserve to collapse because it was a it was a bit

1:03:32

of a pretense in so many circumstances. It was not too solid before but I am not one of those who who is

1:03:42

completely pessimistic about the future. I am aware of the fact that many of the

1:03:47

institutions which helped maintain peace since Nuremberg are now in very state. I

1:03:56

am aware of the fact that in the United States particularly there is such a

1:04:02

retreat from concepts which were dear to the United States under previous

1:04:08

administrations and I don’t have to spell this out but I

1:04:16

would not subscribe to the to a sort of apocalyptical

1:04:22

con conclusion that this is the end of the Sorry, it is not. If you look at the

1:04:27

past at the development of international law, it has never been linear progress

1:04:34

constantly. You have had ups and downs and ups and downs and sometimes the most

1:04:42

horrible violations of the law have read led also to tremendous improvements and

1:04:49

reforms of the law. Um um American Civil War was a horribly bloody

1:04:58

war in which millions and millions died. But after the war, one of the results of

1:05:04

the war was the labor code in the United States, which one was one of the most

1:05:11

advanced for the time codes of conduct of law of conduct of war which was

1:05:20

influential on later drafting of the of the H conventions, Geneva Conventions

1:05:27

and so on. Take the Holocaust. unprecedented industrial killing that

1:05:34

one could not imagine. There were killings before. There were massacres

1:05:39

and genocides before. But this industrialization, the introduction of the German

1:05:48

efficiency to a killing machine, this was something

1:05:53

new. But then what happened after the war? We had the convention against

1:05:58

genocide. We had the universal declaration of human rights. We had the covenants on human rights. We had the

1:06:06

whole new generation of young people who believed that human rights are something

1:06:12

which is a real thing for which it is worthwhile fighting. So I believe we now

1:06:18

have a few bad years. I am encouraged by the fact that despite

1:06:24

the American sanctions against the International Criminal Court, sanctions which are extremely retrogressive,

1:06:33

sanctions that may endanger if they continue the survival of the

1:06:38

International Criminal Court that they have not brought about the par so far

1:06:44

touchwood the paralysis of the international criminal court which continues to function.

1:06:51

And if I may say so, one of my great experiences and lucky points in life was

1:06:59

that I was part of this group of seven before six before that I was special

1:07:05

advisor to the prosecutor and I worked on um deportation of Ukrainian children

1:07:12

and so on. But one of the great things was that I was a part of this group of

1:07:17

six and the luck here was becoming a friend of

1:07:23

Helena. What what are you going to ask? Similar question. Hands up near the

1:07:29

back. I saw a hand there sir up there. Okay. Hi. Okay. Fine. I think well thank you. Um super

1:07:37

interesting discussion. I think uh as you sort of said there are dark days on the horizon and as someone who I suspect

1:07:44

has endured more dark days than the average person. What advice would you

1:07:49

give to us to to navigate those dark days and indeed even turn them into opportunities as you said might might be

1:07:56

the case. Thank you for asking. I think that people who are um in this field,

1:08:04

international criminal justice, international humanitarian law must be in order to work in their field. They

1:08:12

must be a tiny bit or more than a tiny bit optimistic. You must believe that things will become

1:08:19

better. I’m sure they will become better. Uh Trump will not be the last

1:08:25

president of the United States. Um and um and that um ups and downs

1:08:33

uh will sort of figure itself out and we will be in in better state

1:08:40

uh probably some years from now. But we must believe in what we are doing. And

1:08:47

to believe in what we are doing and to make it worthwhile, we must also be a

1:08:53

tiny bit on the optimistic side. And I realize that with my childhood, this is

1:09:00

not a something that you would necessarily expect me to say, but I strongly believe in that. So, we have to

1:09:06

persist and we have to I think I I really do think that one of the things

1:09:12

that we and I say this because I have my own moments of of uh of the blues

1:09:17

thinking about how things are going. Um, but I do take sustenance from all the

1:09:23

good people that I work with and uh and and the people who go look at what’s happening in Iran just now and the

1:09:30

courage of those people and they deserve our support and our help to keep on arguing for the things that we know will

1:09:37

ultimately make the difference. Um so I just you know take relish the good

1:09:43

things that we also see people around us doing and uh and take some time out as

1:09:49

well. Anyway there was a hand in the back. Yes. Yeah. Thank thank you very much for the

1:09:54

talk. It was absolutely fascinating moving. Uh I just want to ask about you the importance of when one is in peace

1:10:02

processes of building peace of also having accountability because it does seem that compared to some of the

1:10:08

conflicts you were involved in resolving or in the aftermath the current peacemaking misses out the need for

1:10:16

accountability and justice. Are you this in any particular context?

1:10:22

Well, I mean I mean here we are. Um President Trump is busy um serenating

1:10:27

the his triumphs in creating peace in all sorts of places and it doesn’t much look like peace to me. Um and so it’s

1:10:35

that question of um isn’t accountability fundamental to genuine longlasting peace

1:10:41

and yet we’re not seeing much in the way of accountability at the moment. I mean, if if if there was a deal done tomorrow

1:10:47

in Ukraine and uh and uh Russia, you can be damn sure it’s not going to involve

1:10:52

Putin going on trial. It’s not going to I mean, the chances of Netanyahu going on trial are pretty slim. The chances I

1:11:00

mean, you know, there’s even Duterte just now is busy. Um I was I was just telling Ted earlier that we’re um

1:11:07

working with some people on um putting in um an Amicus brief um against this

1:11:13

business where Duterte’s lawyers are trying to say that there’s no jurisdiction in the International Criminal Court although they’ve got him

1:11:19

arrested. He’s in the H in jail um and they’re calling for his release saying

1:11:25

that there’s no jurisdiction. The court decided that there was jurisdiction but he’s now appealing it to the higher court. And so um organizations, human

1:11:33

rights organizations like the one that I currently am leading um can put in an amicus brief and that’s that’s what

1:11:38

we’re doing. Um but you know it’s important to to keep working at these things and to make sure that there is

1:11:45

accountability because I don’t see it happening in relation to either Ukraine, you know, the the Russian persons who

1:11:52

have got warrants out against them. I don’t see the Taliban being leadership being arrested any day soon, although

1:11:58

there are warrants out for them. Um I don’t see um Netanyahu. I’m sure that a

1:12:03

a free pass will be given to him at some point soon. Um and so the the the Duterte is our one hope of showing that

1:12:10

it doesn’t matter how much long afterwards. Sometimes you have to wait a long time but that eventually justice

1:12:17

will catch up with uh certain people and we have to let people shiver in their timbers thinking the long arm of the law

1:12:25

might come and reach for me at some point. I very much agree with

1:12:30

what Helena said. Accountability is absolutely important for prospects

1:12:37

for a more peaceful society. Unless conflicts end with some kind of a sense

1:12:46

that there was a measure of accountability, the feelings of vengeance and uh and uh

1:12:55

um attempt to recover territories over which you claim some kind of a title

1:13:02

will persevere. That’s why so important that we now have still international

1:13:09

criminal tribunals that that the tribunals

1:13:15

realize that their vitality and survival

1:13:21

will be based on fairness and law and evidence that those tribunals apply.

1:13:29

They know that if they look for agendas which are political or politically

1:13:35

influenced that will be the end of international criminal justice and that

1:13:40

would be terrible. And one of the things about which I feel good uh looking back

1:13:47

at my own two decades or so on the international bench is the extent to

1:13:54

which we managed in contrast to Nenburgg, in contrast to Tokyo to show

1:14:01

that international tribunals operate on the principle of fairness

1:14:07

and operate on the narrow judicial agenda. agenda that we have established

1:14:13

for ourselves. Agenda which is based on law and evidence and nothing else. And

1:14:19

even if you have objects which in themselves are desirable,

1:14:24

you cannot take them into account for your judicial decisions. And what we are

1:14:31

doing in terms of accountability is important not only for criminal law and

1:14:36

humanitarian law. It is important also for its influence on peacemaking and the

1:14:43

reconciliation between people. So I’m very grateful for the question that you have asked.

1:14:49

Before we um um wind up completely, I just want to say in that business of judging, one of the things that was so

1:14:56

interesting to me, Ted, is that um that the seriousness with which you took

1:15:03

that role, judging, as you’ve said, over two decades, and the and the

1:15:09

responsibility of of fairness in all that you were doing that there was the

1:15:16

occasion when in one of those cases you acquitted the person in front of you and

1:15:21

there was an outrage because people wanted everyone to be convicted and you you acquitted because the evidence

1:15:28

didn’t reach the standard that was required for conviction. Yes, thank you for asking that because

1:15:34

this is an issue. It’s such an issue on feel on feel on which I feel very very strongly. Um I sat or presided over

1:15:45

something like 30 plus between 30 and 40 bills. Every fifth appellant I reversed I led

1:15:55

the court in reversing the judgment and in quitting and I was very much

1:16:01

concerned about the fact that in public opinion if an international prosecutor

1:16:08

bringing charges against somebody the public reading of the situation would be

1:16:16

if a an international prosecutor bricks charges Yes. It surely means that the

1:16:21

person comes not only with a narrative of guilt, he’s probably guilty. Mhm.

1:16:26

And this is that I strongly resisted. And um um I was very harshly

1:16:35

criticized for for leading the bench in reversing

1:16:41

convictions. And it’s something of which I’m very proud because it showed that

1:16:48

international criminal law is reaching some kind of a maturity

1:16:53

that if every fifth or every sixth appellant is acquitted. It shows that we

1:17:01

do not come with a predetermined agenda that any everyone who is accused must be

1:17:08

must be convicted. Uh, one of the chapters in my book is called the

1:17:14

surviving the quit of General Gotovina. General Gotovina was an Russian war hero

1:17:21

was convicted by the trial chamber for something like 20 four years of

1:17:27

imprisonment because of bombing or artillery use of

1:17:33

by using artillery of four SER inhabited

1:17:38

townships. And um um we on the appeals we found

1:17:44

that there was no basis for the basic rational used by I will not bother use

1:17:50

the details by the trial chamber and with a very tiny majority three to two

1:17:58

you could not have a smaller majority we acquitted

1:18:03

reverse the conviction of Gavina and uh let him go and Um the whole world for

1:18:12

two or three years was against me. I mean not only enemies of international justice but friends of international

1:18:20

justice. How could you let this man go

1:18:25

and I had applying guiding principles principles. We had no we had no choice.

1:18:33

Did the evidence reach the threshold and and then luck in life. Eventually the

1:18:41

question got to the international court of justice which as you know has no hierarchical authority over our tribul

1:18:51

but it’s the principal judicial organ of the United Nations. And the council for

1:18:56

Serbia criticized me in personal terms

1:19:02

saying had judge me not made those terrible errors in Gotovina case our

1:19:10

chance of proving that Serbia is committing genocide would have been so much better. So they made it such a

1:19:18

critical point in their pleading that the international court of justice had no choice but had to deal with the

1:19:25

gotoina case and eventually six printed pages. It’s a lot for a court accepted

1:19:34

unanimously by the bench that you were right by the bench that that not only I was

1:19:39

right but that they looked at the evidence and they could find nothing which would undermine our conclusions.

1:19:47

So you have to do those things to do things which are right and don’t give a damn about political consequences. Well,

1:19:54

I mean, it’s that whole business of that otherwise it’s seen as victor’s justice, utter racist and and and victor’s

1:20:00

justice. It will will never have the respect of uh the general p the wider public. Now, listen, I have to to call

1:20:07

it to an end. It’s been a really wonderful wonderful opportunity to hear from you, Ted, and uh and you really are

1:20:15

a heroic figure in our midst. And uh and listen, um I’m going to encourage all of

1:20:20

you to get his book. and he’s going to be sitting over there signing it. And thank you. And would you show your

1:20:27

appreciation to Ted

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@tobararbulu # mmt

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From surviving the Holocaust to judging genocide: the extraordinary life of Theodor Meron

(https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/16/tv/video/amanpour-meron-thousand-miracles)

(19:29 m)

speaks to an architect of modern international law about his new memoir, “A Thousand Miracles.”

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