@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu
Discussing MMT (Modern Monetary Theory) with Warren Mosler https://youtube.com/live/SoThpIdUiE8?si=Sh6E5FHO9LsqC8IM
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Discussing MMT (Modern Monetary Theory) with Warren Mosler
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoThpIdUiE8)
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there we go that that should be good all right so at first i just want to say i just i just hit the live now so we are
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live i was gonna go a couple minutes before we did but uh it might as well just do it while we’re
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on screen um and rather than i kind of have some understanding of who you are your background to a degree but rather than
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me offer it maybe if you just want to take a couple minutes before we start into this discussion you know your background you know what
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position you take why you came to mmt and you know just a little just lay a little groundwork there for the people to know about a
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little something about yourself okay so my background is the financial sector
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and i would like to look into my camera wherever that is is that
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i’m looking into the camera now right now yep yep okay so the um i started my first job in
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banking was 1973 and i went to uh wall street in 1976 i
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worked at bankers trust they were primary dealer i was on the deal the dealer desk there i was uh
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actually they made me vice president in charge of sales and trading of gdma securities which were the hot new
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derivatives at the time and i i got to know of course everything
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that goes on at a primary dealer and at the desk and that’s where i started
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developing these ideas are being made aware of them as i became aware of how the actual payment system worked how banking
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worked uh it all just came together in my mind as
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just an understanding of overall monetary operations from there i went to 1978 i went to
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william boyer company they were one of my clients they hired me to start their fixed income arbitrage department
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which i did and i left blair in 19 well in 1982 i started my own company
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called uh avm securities and triple i securities it was a arbitrage
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fixed income arbitrage and a fixed income broker dealer and william blair was a partner with me
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and we moved that i moved it to florida in 1984. william blair continued
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the company continued to be a partner for a few years and then that company still exists i turned it over to my
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partners at the end of 1998 after i ran managed for the first 25 years
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we were the uh had the number one performance record of any uh fixed income manager in the world as our
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number one unmanaged account reports uh a report that would come out monthly and we had the top performance
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for the five years of 10-year and 15-year performance records uh in 15 years of fixed income arbitrage we
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didn’t have a single losing trade for example so it was a pretty good run and um
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from there i had bought a controlling interest in a small bank and i stayed with that for a while and
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uh then that was sold in 2013.
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and i moved uh to saint croix and u.s virgin islands in 2003.
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part of the terms of my uh exit from triple i and avm in 1990
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at the end of 1997 was that i would um be able to uh continue from anywhere i
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wanted i i gave up 90 of my i gave up my interest i retained a 10 interest in the company
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and i still have a 10 uh residual interest at this point in time
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so you were working home from home before it even became popular apparently yeah i guess you could say that
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right on well anyways like i say i really appreciate you taking the time today warren to uh to come and join me on this live stream
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because as a libertarian especially a canadian libertarian which is almost like a [ __ ]
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neither left nor right field to be honest with you somewhere in the netherlands apparently as compared
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to a lot of my peers and what i’ve understood over the years now now we’ll be definitely getting into you know some historical
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precedent in terms of monetary policy and all that but but my biggest thing is today
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from and from generations like i’m i’m from a general gen x i would assume you’re a baby boomer
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i was in correct uh yeah 1949. right so and then you got the millennials and now gen z so you got
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four generations alive today and i’m listening to you know perspectives and opinions from people
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from all areas because that’s the thing it’s not just political persuasion or your preference in terms of your ideology or even if you’re religious
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it’s it’s you know how it affects you know generations and demographics because that all plays a key role too when you’re talking about economics
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and value and stuff and and there’s definitely a lot of people out there who are massively if there’s one thing i
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could say that no matter if you’re talking about people on the left the right people are disenfranchised the youth
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the one thing that i see that most people share today or at least and yeah most not all
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obviously is that most people are just they see the system they don’t necessarily understand it
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but the current system that they’re functioning under a lot of people are recognized recognizes it seems more or less like a
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rigged system and where it’s benefiting certain people and being quite a detriment to others
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and that’s the area where like i say where i see where there’s uh you know new up-and-comers or people such as yourself like in the mmt school
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who are trying to come out and and i think what you’re trying to do is be descriptive in terms of understanding
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because you do come from finance and you know banking in general to try to be descriptive in terms of the current
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monetary policy and how it’s set up and structured and then uh maybe prescriptive in terms
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of advocating for some things that may be able to be changed in some manners some way on the
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monetary policy side of things do maybe better reflect or to me be more i don’t know that would
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that’s one thing actually let me just ask you what is the the goal of mmt at the end of the day like what what is
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the you know when you come up with this monetary theory like what what is your ultimate goal
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if it was to be implemented right so it’s to promote the correct
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understanding of monetary monetary operations how how the currency works how the monetary system works
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which i think and already has will radically change the debate
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and uh the same issues will be debated whether or not money should be spent here or there but the reasons for spending or not
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spending will be very different and i think we’ll get better public policy overall if
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um we have an informed electorate rather than now where we have a misinformed electorate and we have a misinformed leadership so
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we’ve got everybody misinformed about how it works making decisions and i think they’d make i’d prefer to live
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in a world where they’re making informed decisions right okay so so what i like to do when i
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start a conversation or anything with someone is i like to you know set up the the
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parameters at least so that you know and the most important parameter i would suggest is actually you know acknowledging the
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actual descriptive language the labels and the terms of these words that we use so that to me is a big because one thing
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i’ve noticed and actually is not only extremely inefficient but it’s
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yeah i cut out real quick there sorry yeah my not the greatest i’m waiting for my starlink set up but
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not yet but anyway so like i say because the big thing i’ve noticed is a lot of people when you’re when you’re talking
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about whether it’s said fiscal or monetary policy is or even even when you’re talking in terms
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of capitalism or socialism is you hear a lot of people using these words and these terms they lost them
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around a lot but they they don’t really properly represent their their actual inherent meaning now for me
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i don’t try to reinvent any words i i go by what the proper definition
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right right right the meaning of these words are because that’s that’s i from what i gather for
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especially if you’re you know from a western country and you were raised you know under the western the
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our typical education system and the understanding of the english language if you have clarity of language that
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gives clarity a thought and that’s where i’ve seen the biggest problem is people that don’t have that clarity of language
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which doesn’t give them the clarity of mind to know what they’re actually talking about now me i would just say first and
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foremost at the moment because i did no i have been watching your videos
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and uh and some of your lectures and i even watched the the debate you had there with uh robert murphy
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um right and uh so so i’ve been paying attention but to me it’s like i say it’s the number one thing i hear
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that you keep advocating the problem is this is the one thing that concerns me i think the most is like the definition of government is
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forced it’s a monopoly of force of violence in the particular geographical landmass and i’m not
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sure well i’ve heard that you basically acknowledged that correct well the whole um yeah in fact it’s all
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based on coercive taxation without that government it doesn’t have the ability to provision itself
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right exactly so yeah and that and that’s the area and like i say i understand descriptively
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how you you pointed some of the areas in the back the past and you’ve even acknowledged there’s been some all these failures in the past
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and i guess my initial question since you at least agree that government is you know a monopoly of force
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i i’m just curious and i’m i’m genuinely curious here sincerely why why would anyone that’s an
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advocate of actual uh at least getting people out from the current system of the current structure that seems to economically
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slave entire generations is why you would want to replicate or duplicate that even if there is some
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tweaking or changing in terms of the policy you’re still placing you know in the
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hands of now i i’m sure when warren you might have some good ideas you know like you as the person but once again you
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advocate for government which you’re going to place even if you have great ideas let’s say your mmt is a
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great comes up with a great theory and his great ideas you’re still advocating for place in that theory or or control of that monetary
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theory or that monetary policy in the hands of people who use force as their means to it and
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that’s that’s kind of an area where i find it where i take issue right so i don’t know if you want to respond
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to that well uh i don’t know that i’m advocating for that what i’m doing is describing it
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and once people understand how that force is there how it’s being applied then i think they’ll make more
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intelligent decisions about what to do next or you know again an informed electorate
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for me is better than an uninformed electorate now i’ve spoken to a lot of people and they said they listen they
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say well look if everybody understood what you were talking about all kinds of bad things would happen and
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what they’re what they’re saying is they that the country will run better with people who are uninformed than people who are
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informed i can’t argue with that but it’s just it certainly is a difference of opinion though right
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well i mean from my perspective i can’t speak for anyone else but from my perspective it’s it’s always been the the pretense of what
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break down to the core of liberty is which is the most important fundamental aspect of the human experience is to have to be
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free from force subjugation or any kind of economic slavery and to me once again that always has to
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come as a consequence a result of government governments have always been whether you’re talking about
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dictator a monarch or a republic or a democracy or a
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parliamentary democracy sorry yeah i like to talk about it as collective action
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like there’s time for individual place for individual action then there are other times where you have to have collective action so
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yeah for sure but it’s it’s the introduction of force right it’s the minute someone is
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proverbially or you know with the gun to the head that’s that’s the area right right i take the
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biggest issue is because what i’ve always understood and not just in terms of understanding micro or macroeconomic theories
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right even like i say even in my own personal life is you know put it this way i’ve raised two sons
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that are both you know uh 29 and 26 perspective yeah i could have like a lot of other parents
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i could have used force and a lot of people do hypocritical language
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and constantly using force like because mike does make right and some three or four times the size of them i
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i have that inherent power i have that you know authority over them but what i’ve understood is actually is
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you know there’s there’s some loose ends if you’re not constantly micromanaging but you end up as a consequence
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and a better result or at least anecdotally for me and anyone else that i’ve ever seen who’s practiced like voluntary
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means and not using forced coercion or or uh you know violence as a metro and i i find
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in my own personal situation and personal setting that has worked out i think my sons have turned it to be
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tremendously superior of course it’s just subjective in my opinion but i would ask you to anyone to compare them to a lot of other
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people who were raised with violence or force as the means to an end and you would probably come to realize they’re
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they’re much better people they’re the kind of people you’d probably want to have as your neighbors whereas the ones that’s advocating for force i don’t know if you
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can trust those kind of people right yeah well look the problem is you know let’s say you want to have the military
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as a government and can you rely solely on volunteers or who are unpaid volunteers or
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or do you have to have some form of coercion to have a successful military if you want a legal system
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can you somehow have volunteers who will come out to do this rather than using our
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monetary system so the government has set up a monetary system which i point out is in the first instance the
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the reason for that monetary system is to provision a government with public health with soldiers with uh
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you know legal system that’s that’s what the monetary system does now if you have some other if you have
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some other way to get these people in government fine but otherwise you know we’re stuck with a monetary system
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right well what you were saying in terms of you need government you know for the mill or forced to to for to have a military
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what i would suggest if you go back to the founding of the u.s actually the american founders actually understood
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instinctually because of the their past relationship over across the pond right and they didn’t set up a standing army
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actually it was set up so that you didn’t actually have a standing r because they recognized that usually that
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can not it cannot just be used as an outwards force you know to to fend off you know
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external threats but it comes with something right look if it’s if it’s decided that
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we don’t need a standing military that we don’t need a legal system then we don’t need a government currency to provision
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those aspects of government then we shouldn’t have one i i don’t i don’t i’m not trying to make that decision
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if someone ever any foreign country or even domestic domestic or foreign any threat that comes to my door
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i have an automatic incentive just by fact that i want to live
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to defend and i want my children to live there’s already an automatic incentive structure without any government with any top without any
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top-down mandates or regulations or impositions or edicts for me to want to defend myself and i
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would suggest that is the case for almost every human being the ones that don’t well you know if you’re unwilling
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to defend and you’re well well i mean i know it’s a sad reality but you know that’s that’s how nature works right
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yeah well yeah i mean if you have a militarized state today that invades a state that doesn’t have a
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standing army you can argue who’s going to win okay you might argue fairly because you’ve got to remember
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america america won like you know the king with all of his you know organized army units couldn’t
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defeat a bunch of ragtag militias right i’m not i’m not arguing who’s going to win but if it’s decided
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if it’s decided if there’s not enough collective that we don’t need collective action there’s not enough support for
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collective action for defense then you know fine there isn’t any defense what i’m saying is once you’ve decided
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there is a reason for collective action and then you need to provision the entity that’s going to provide that
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collective action how do you do that okay and the way we’ve chosen to do it is with a coercive
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monetary system if if we don’t have to do that okay there have been places that don’t have
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coercive monetary systems not not anything of the size and scale of today’s nation states
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or even in the past thousands of years all i’ll say
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or state organized nation states have used coercive monetary systems they’ve used coercive taxation to
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provision their governments if there’s another way to do it fine i mean that should be part of the debate but yeah i’m here to explain how these
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course of monetary systems work so that within that context informed decisions can be made
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right okay well another quick question because like we’ve covered the definition obviously
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that government is a monopoly for us and the other thing i would think is the most important thing especially anyone’s going to listen to
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this is then like the meaning the definition the the proper definition as far as i’m concerned of what money
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is actually supposed to be what money is supposed to represent yeah well i don’t talk about what it’s supposed to be i talk about what it is
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right now and the us dollar is nothing more than a tax credit it’s a thing that the government demands for payment of
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taxes the yen is a tax credit to euros a tax credit that’s all today’s uh floating exchange rate currencies are
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our tax credits no matter what they should be or what they would have been that’s what they are
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right well but that’s what i’m suggesting so if we want to get outside of and i would suggest well you would you would at least acknowledge that
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you’re not happy with the current system i i would what i’m saying is if you if the
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starting with the idea that the currency is there to provision the government the most effective way to get that done
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is to impose coercive taxation and then the currency becomes the tax credit and
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that forces the rest of the uh uh motion to happen
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um well it’s okay but anyway i just want to on from my side of things as far as i
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know and under any historical context and anyone ever and like i say i’m not dolmatic any particular school of
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economics like i say i’ve i’ve looked into monetarism like norton friedman i looked into classical economics you
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know your typical atoms and such and then you got your you got your uh your keynesians and then you’ve
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got your austrian nikon but to me like i said the most important thing for me
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to understand because as anything i produce and provide provide in society it is something that
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has a value it has a it has an actual value so to me what money is supposed to represent
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is a measure of that value just like you know if we’re we’re trying to build a home you need to have a measurement in terms of your
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metric system or the standard system you’re having that might yeah you use the word
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supposed to be but uh let’s but that’s not what it is right now right now it’s just a tax
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credit that happens to function that way to some degree maybe not to the degree you’d like it to
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but but right now it’s a tax credit we can talk about what gives tax credits
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value and that’s what gives the money value kind of both right because people you
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know typical people in society are genuinely using it as a means to measure value to exchange
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value and well not doing much in terms of retaining it anymore yeah but you know if you want to stick that dollar under
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your mattress even though it might only be worth 50 years but i mean there it is still there
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is still what most people in society other than like i say under other than central planners most people in society
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use money based on those three definitions as a medium to measure their value what they produce and
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provide in society and it means to exchange that value and as a medium to retain that value and basically what
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you’re suggesting now and i agree with you central bankers in conjunction with government and policy
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are basically the ones that are completely dictating what a person’s worth is and what you’re
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well right so look um let’s take a screwdriver okay a lot of people use screwdrivers in a
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lot of ways that aren’t the main function of a screwdriver i open up a can of paint you know i
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you know and i say you know i use it to break up ice and i wish screwdrivers should have points on them so i could break up ice better well they’re made
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specifically to do this job and as an ancillary effect we use them for all kinds of
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things so what we have is a state currency that all the government cares about in the first instance is will this thing
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allow me to have soldiers would allow me to have public health officials would allow me to have public education
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will allow me to have a legal system you know which you may want or not want but that’s somehow been collectively decided
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and it has to function to do that first otherwise the rest doesn’t matter
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so what we have are these tax credits that function to do that first now in addition there are all these
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other uses that come about that are side effects that are maybe even compelled because this is the
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tax credit and then we can go from there to to see what can be done about
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making other things you know more compatible with this coercive force of government that is using this tool to provision itself
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i’m just curious why would you not advocate because if you’re kind of disenfranchised with the current system
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why wouldn’t you want to advocate for or what do you take issue with something that actually has
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sound money properties you know whether you’re talking about using a commodity such as silver or now today it’s it’s a
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completely different iteration i’m trying to learn about it too but cryptocurrencies at least such ones such as bitcoin where
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there actually has to be some kind of proof of work to show that there is at least some work provided and
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to measure or to maintain or or to figure that value in some method or some way is i’m just curious why those and those
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would be completely decentralized you know silver and gold if you if you want any any individual if you want to
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prospect and you know paying for gold if you can buy some property or find some area where you can go and come
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and give you the permission you know you can you can go and create and earn your own wealth sure and
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and same with cryptocurrencies today or you can step inside of having any government
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centrally man in control or you know devalue your worth so i’m just curious have you have you ever looked into
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any of these other well obviously you’re familiar with gold and silver sure why why why are you uh i would assume
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actually i’m just kind of assuming here but are you against something like a gold standard or a silver like something where it’s actually tied
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to a commodity in some way that could restrain okay so yeah so there are consequences
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to tying tax credits tying the dollar to gold and i can show you the consequences and
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then you can decide do you want to do it or not so uh i wrote a paper on that where um what did
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i call it i called it exchange rate policy which is fixed or floating in full employment
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and it shows that with fixed exchange rate policy which is the gold standard or something like that the state loses
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its ability to sustain full employment if you now our output all real wealth is based on
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people working and producing things there is nothing that isn’t that you know based on working for you know output from labor from one car
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so if you’ve got 10 unemployment you’re losing 10 of your potential outwards so is that
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the trade-off is is it worth not having full output potential all the time to have your currency
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tied value to gold maybe some people it is i don’t know now if you don’t do that
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like we are now uh you can sustainable employment at all the time at all times you can have max real
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output in your economy managed and you can allow people to buy all the gold and silver and bitcoin they
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want there’s no restriction on you having that nobody has to save in dollars you can save them whatever you
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want so we’re given the freedom by not pegging to any of these currencies we’re given the freedom to
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um to save in anything we want and so uh those are the choices you
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decide if you decide gold fine you know then you vote for somebody who wants gold uh well in terms of that like what you
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were mentioning in terms of the full employment actually in canada it’s very very much aligned
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certain parts of this country in particular very much aligned with that kind of train of thought and i remember back even in the 90s and it’s happening
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is we have our furthest province furthest to the east it’s an island all by itself newfoundland
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and unemployment was so bad at certain points in time after the 80s when you had the big ramp up
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in that in the interest rates and stuff and things went pretty sour there for a while but there was times in the 90s
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where there was government it was was basically doing basically something akin to what you’re suggesting
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which is to create some area of full employment because they recognize that people were getting time for the pitchforks to come out so
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so they actually were paying people and i had a couple of friends that were new fees that i i met up in ontario
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that actually did it themselves where the government would literally go pay you to go down to the shore and pick up
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rocks that were in mixed in with the sand and just move them to it to a different
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area yeah and they they were still you know they didn’t make the beach any
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cleaner they just were basically it was almost like a make work program now for me what i would suggest is is that
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seems like a massive waste of not just resources
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but you know that the currency that would have been issued that was basically squandered for nothing more than rocks moving from one
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place from the shore to the other right and there was nothing genuinely productive the people now they did get like i say
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money to buy things but because that money was artificially stimulated and created by leia of
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fiat that the underlying uh factors of that was that people didn’t they lost the grip on what value
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actually what tangible value actually meant which is why i think why today you’re seeing a lot of people
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don’t actually understand what value is because i mean if you believe that you just create value by typing numbers on a
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screen which is basically what government does um you know that might benefit some people like i’ve even said before if i
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had a printing press in my basement for sure that’s going to benefit me and anyone else that i’m willing to share
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share those well those dollars right well for you know i never like proposed a
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policy like that so but government can do things even more wasteful than that okay yeah for sure okay that’s that’s
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nothing compared to the waste you could government can do right all right but
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let’s talk about unemployment for a minute and let’s talk about the money story okay so and i’ll just
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talk about my money story what’s become to be known as the mmt money story which is the money story that applies to
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today’s governments not to some body landing on a desert island or whatever that’s all fine i’m not going
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to argue those work or don’t work but i’m telling you this is the current money story and you
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know a good analogy or an example of what happened was the europeans when they went into africa
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not that long ago wanted uh people working there to come work for them on their plantations and
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maybe wanted to grow coffee okay so how do you get people to do that well you can offer
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your local currency your pounds or your franks but none of nobody would walk away from their village and go work for those
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things on the coffee field so um what they did was they imposed what the british called the hut tax they
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put a tax on everybody’s hut that they lived in and it was
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they came up with some new script for like the crown you’ve got to pay 100 crown a month tax or something like
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that or we’re going to burn your house down okay it sounds sounds like you’re a force
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right they had the british military right there and the french did the same thing okay so
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so what happened when they did that these people who had never heard of a crown nobody else had either suddenly
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they need a hundred crown a month suddenly they’re saying well what do we have to do to get these we don’t want our house burned down you’ve got the
28:56
guns on us but you know we want to be good good citizens here well if you come to the coffee fields
29:01
we’ll pay you 10 crown a day to work growing coffee and they said okay fine and certain
29:07
members would go down and maybe work for a month and earn more than enough to pay their tax and then they’d
29:12
buy things from other people in the village who would sell them services take care of the kids or
29:17
whatever but the economy would earn enough overall to pay the tax at least enough or else somebody’s
29:24
house is going to get burned down okay so you follow and this is what they did for a long time okay and they’re still doing it today in
29:30
uh in some of these spots okay so uh last i heard the french system is only
29:35
now being challenged or something this is what they did so right up your alley course of government
29:42
for the further purpose of provisioning that government that wants you to go grow coffee it’s very effective now what they if you
29:49
go now look at this system a couple of things what was the purpose of the tax the
29:56
purpose of the tax was not to get money from the people living the purpose of the tax was to
30:02
cause them to need the money to seek work that was paid in that money that only the british had
30:09
they have a monopoly on that money they’re the single supplier of the thing they’re demanding as payment now they can tell people what they have
30:15
to do to get the money oh you want money so we don’t go burn your house down fine you come work in
30:20
coffee plantations and we’ll give you so many crown a month you know a day 10 crown a day
30:26
all right so in the first instance the purpose of that tax is to create what let’s talk definition
30:32
what we define as unemployment people looking for paid work that pays in that currency
30:37
so the purpose of the tax and it does it very effectively is to create unemployment it created a village of unemployed who
30:44
now are desperately looking for paid work so they don’t get their houses burned down to survive right and so
30:51
they go down and look for work so number one where did the unemployment come from the government created it
30:57
what was there before the government created this unemployment there was no unemployment you go to any non-monetary society there
31:03
are no people looking to earn money there isn’t any money okay there’s no tax this you know they
31:09
have some form of collective action where they’ll get together for the harvest or to go hunting and share it or whatever
31:14
just like you talk about but there’s no unemployment the grandmother isn’t unemployed she’s helping take care of the kids uh
31:21
if they’re farming and somebody discovers a tractor out of nowhere you don’t have and you don’t need as many people
31:26
plowing the fields you don’t have unemployment they’re doing something else there’s always more in life to do than there are people that do it
31:33
okay so number one taxation is there by design to create unemployment for the
31:39
further purpose of the government hiring the people that its taxation caused to be
31:44
unemployed right so if there’s any unemployment around you you know why it’s there it’s there because the government has
31:51
put a tax structure on the economy that’s created more employment than
31:57
the people it wanted to employ the if the government has full responsibility for what we define as unemployment and
32:03
nothing it just wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for the government policy right and then now the other interesting
32:09
thing is if the total tax in that village if there were 100 huts
32:15
and there were a hundred crown a month 100 times 100 the total tax bill would be uh 10 000
32:22
crown a month that needed to be paid people would come and look for work in the coffee
32:28
plantations and the total earnings would be more than a hundred thousand okay it has to be
32:34
it can’t be any less or somebody’s getting their house burned down they’d run down and look for work okay but people wanted to earn more than
32:42
just enough because they wanted to save now why did they want to save well in case they got sick they
32:47
couldn’t work the next month or you know the wife lost them in the wash and they had to get some more
32:53
or whatever reason economies either save zero or they save something you can’t
32:58
have negative savings it means the tax isn’t getting paid somebody’s getting their house burned down and that will compel somebody to
33:04
show up for work so the british always spent more than they collected okay the other reason they want savings
33:10
is because merchants sprung up because some people were buying things from others and it’d be stores and intermediaries
33:16
and stock brokers and everything else that shows up when you uh have a monetary system and they need
33:22
cash in the cash register people wanted you know to make change they want to cash in their pockets and you give your kids lunch money for
33:28
school there’s all these reasons to have a money supply right you don’t have an a monetary economy
33:33
with no money supply so the basic money supply were the crown that the british spent
33:39
that hadn’t yet been used to pay taxes people earned more than they wanted the british spent more than they collected today we call that deficit
33:46
spending all right now let’s look at the sequence the sequence that every congressman
33:52
would imagine is oh the british would have to get money through taxing to be able to pay the people
33:59
wrong everybody in the village know that was not what was going on they put a tax liability first which
34:05
caused people to work get paid and then the tax gets paid right so they would pay the people first
34:11
and then the tax could be paid it’s the same thing today close examination of the federal reserve in
34:17
our monetary system shows but our government spends first and then out of that those dollars that
34:23
it spends some are used to pay taxes and some are not and those that are not are saved
34:29
they become part of what i call the net money supply which is a very precise definition that people can
34:34
understand and it that those dollars that are spent that haven’t been used to pay taxes
34:41
uh can be held in several different forms that the government makes available it can be cash in what they call reserve
34:46
accounts at the federal reserve it can be treasury securities which is cash in a savings account at the federal
34:52
reserve when you buy a treasury security you give them money you get it back later with interest that’s called a savings
34:57
account or it can be in green pieces of paper which are tax credits that you can carry around so it’s the same dollars for
35:03
either cash register okay the public debt are the dollars spent by the government that haven’t yet
35:08
been used to pay taxes we have the sequence backwards if you take away nothing else
35:14
from this discussion think sequence every congressman thinks he has to get money from us to be able to spend he has
35:20
to tax or borrow from somebody or he can’t spend right it’s the opposite it’s the opposite they
35:27
have to spend first otherwise we don’t have the money to pay taxes or buy their bonds
35:32
they’ve got it wrong now everybody in the federal reserve well you’re what you’re doing though is and sorry for interrupting but what you’re doing is
35:38
and you’re correcting in that in an analysis but it’s as as a consequence of the constant
35:44
government intervention in the economy which has destroyed the free market and people’s ability to actually save retain and actually
35:51
create and measure their own value basically well yeah i’m not disagreeing with other forms of value i’m just talking
35:56
about dollars okay all the dollars that can be used to pay taxes come only from the government or else
36:03
they’re called counterfeit you’re not allowed to print your own up okay are the governments there you go
36:09
right there that that’s an area actually i wanted to get into is so so why what that’s the thing that i i can’t
36:14
quite understand why you would be a proponent of the government having this ability to monopolize
36:20
i’m not a proponent i’m not a proponent of it i’m explaining how they do it right mmt also rely on
36:28
government basically having access to the printing press and being able to arbitrarily mmt doesn’t isn’t a thing that relies on anything
36:34
it’s a it’s a framework for analysis if i tell you how the russian nuclear
36:39
program works that doesn’t mean i’m advocating russia but it’s from what i gather and this is
36:45
maybe where there could be some clarification is both descriptive and prescriptive okay so let’s let’s
36:53
clarify that mfp is not prescriptive mmt is a descriptive
37:02
framework i include in my description what i call a base case for analysis
37:07
because you have to start somewhere so i’ll start with the case of the simplest case i can think of
37:12
is the british with africa that’s the simplest case for example or pompe i might pick that but you start
37:18
with a base case for analysis and then you can give me reasons why that should be modified that’s fine but
37:24
you have to start from somewhere right and uh so i start with a government that wants to provision itself it does it in the simplest way here’s
37:31
the package this is what we observe this is what we can see as a logical construct of a
37:36
government that wants to use coercive taxation to position itself and then we can
37:42
take it from there if we want to change what we have or throw it all away tear it up i’m not saying you can’t do
37:47
that so yeah so okay go ahead and your turn well
37:52
i was just no i just so i’m just curious because like i say when i so let’s look at let’s so let’s look at government right now what i’m saying is
37:59
they’ve got the sequence backwards the funds to pay taxes the dollars that can
38:04
pay taxes or buy government bonds can only come from the government through its agents in government
38:10
that’s not the president it’s all the agents yeah but that’s basically only because they’ve removed any citizen from
38:16
the country both can the u.s i’ll use can the u.s in particular because that’s where i’m yeah yeah but they basically removed our
38:22
ability like we have to pay you know anything in in canadian independence exactly
38:28
exactly you’ve got it okay that’s because government is basically forcing me yes okay where you know there
38:35
are people and i’ll just say this right now even alive today there are people who do function outside the the current yeah yes
38:41
absolutely absolutely that doesn’t change what i just said the
38:46
canadian canadian dollars to pay canadian taxes as prescribed by the government which
38:52
you may approve of or not approve of but this is how it is the tax liability on your house those canadian dollars can only come
38:58
from the government of canada through its agents and they control that flow through its agents it’s a monopoly of supply of tax credits
39:07
to satisfy their tax liabilities they’ve got you on both sides yeah okay the con every mp in canadian
39:14
parliament has that backwards they all think they have to get the canadian dollars from the private sector
39:20
to be able to spend them they have to tax them or they have to borrow them or they don’t have them to spend they
39:26
think the sequence starts with dollars somehow being generated in the private sector it doesn’t
39:31
it ha it can’t as a point of logic okay they come from credits that the bank of canada makes to
39:37
reserve accounts for canadian banks it says simple changing of numbers in an account it starts it initiates
39:43
it comes from the government yeah let me just respond that cause yeah but
39:48
the issue obviously i take with that is yes government issue and currency what you’re describing there yes but that’s
39:54
actually what’s destroying okay before we get to whether it’s destroying or not which i’m not saying it isn’t
39:59
but right but let’s understand that we’ve got a world that has this sequence backwards
40:05
and what mmt did when it came along is it set the sequence right it and when this when the members of
40:11
parliament understand that the canadian dollars originate with them come from them the ones that they then
40:18
collect and tax that’s why they call it a tax return that’s why it’s called the revenue it reverts
40:24
back render unto caesar that which is caesar’s okay everybody used to always know this that
40:30
the government would spend its token and then people would have to return it to the government if you weren’t able to
40:35
return it you’d lose your house or your car they knew the sequence in the last couple of hundred years only
40:41
is when this knowledge has been lost and mmt is just restoring this lost
40:46
knowledge of how this coercive government is functioning well i’m actually really happy that that
40:52
knowledge is being lost and and new minds are developing new ideas and concepts in terms of
40:57
how freedom and economics is supposed to be and i actually believe that the people who are doing that are
41:03
doing a great service for not just people alive today but for promoting human liberty you know
41:09
going forward i i personally i want to get out and as far away from central planners or anyone in
41:15
government having to use force or taxation which is theft as a means to
41:20
you know pick and choose who’s the winners or losers in the economy and to actually destroy the value of
41:25
anything that i produce or provide as a consequence a result of my labor or my elect yeah you know i’d like to hear any
41:32
alternative you might have but you know what you want to do is make sure you understand how the government
41:37
today is working so the number one takeaway from this for mmt is it’s about sequence they’ve got the
41:44
sequence backwards and now all the schools of economics are recognizing that in the last year
41:50
let me just push a little bit on that because it kind of goes back to the keynesian model because even even maynard is at the time right yeah
41:58
everyone everyone even said well hey it’s you know the idea of keynes it’s it’s a terrible like we we get the
42:04
fallibility and the consequence of government you know being the the final final uh arbiter and dispenser of
42:11
economic prosperity well but they recognize the time is well it’s it’s a i guess the best of
42:18
the the least popular choices yeah and at the time and that’s why they
42:23
even even some of the the austrian economists or even other people have said since then is yeah i guess we’re all keynesian now but
42:29
that’s the problem once you’ve literally severed any ties that restrains government which is what the commodity
42:34
such as gold or silver used to do but once you’ve re removed those restraints entirely
42:40
that is what that’s actually brought us to the place today why you know people are looking to create entire new monetary systems
42:46
entirely not just yourself but people in the cryptocurrency spaces and smart smart contracts and
42:52
blockchains trying to get out from underneath this kind of centralized control because they recognize that keynesianism was actually
42:58
you know maybe a good stop get that measure for the time and no doubt if you were alive at that particular
43:03
time you definitely benefit from it go two or three generations let me just
43:09
say one thing yeah chains keynes had to sequence backwards the austrians have the sequence
43:15
backwards all these people had the sequence backwards that’s the first thing we’re pointing out look you’ve got this whole thing
43:21
but you’ve got the sequence backwards so i’m trying to work through what mmt is we’re still on number one it’s about
43:27
sequence so now the next thing i’m mmt has pointed out is that
43:33
coercive taxation is what’s is the point of force of this monopoly that
43:39
causes unemployment by design so if you’re going to come up with some alternatives understand that and
43:45
understand how you’re going to provision government without doing this you have to come up with an alternative means of
43:50
provisioning government which is
43:59
maybe the semantics are different actually a libertarian where i think we do need collective action for certain
44:05
things now maybe there are people who think we never need collective action but when you say collective action the problem is
44:11
is and that’s to me it comes across as like but we just acknowledged earlier that government is
44:17
forced and taxation is deaf so collective action is is i mean again
44:24
steal my car that’s that’s a collective action right yes it is yes it is yes it is you have to understand that that’s also
44:31
inherently immoral and unethical and once again what i’m concerned about is if you’re advocating for a place in
44:37
like listen i’m not even telling you the truth as a libertarian and because i understand like psychology to a certain degree i
44:43
understand austrian school uh to me i could function under whether it’s full-on
44:48
you know statism or or complete anarchy to me i’ll i’ll function under
44:54
either scenario or situation the problem is though is as each generation grows up and forgets what you
45:00
know function under anything that remotely resembles freedom or actual you know based on our individual choice
45:07
these collective actions it’s constantly seeking and destroying the individual and there is no such thing like
45:12
collective action is just a bunch of individuals we’re all individuals and we can all choose to go
45:17
come together voluntarily right or that is considered a collective action but anything the government does
45:23
i i don’t do it i i don’t you know pay my taxes because i voluntarily choose to yeah i am i you know
45:30
just for building a concept i consider collective action the broadest you know the most uh general
45:37
form of government the most fundamental form of government where people get together to do something i
45:43
consider that as the basis of uh the concept no i don’t
45:48
i i’m not maybe this is a point of clarity that i think might help that’s a starting point to me that’s the
45:53
starting point yeah no but maybe maybe you have only talked i’m not sure because i i know robert murphy
45:59
he’s probably he’ll be in the political camps in terms of libertarianism me what i would say is i’m i’m
46:05
philosophically a libertarian and what i do is i extrapolate those fundamental principles that is libertarian
46:12
libertarian thought yeah and that philosophy which is self-ownership property rights and the non-aggression principle and once you extrapolate from
46:19
those ideas universalize them then you get to the point where they’re and it’s actually
46:24
provable so that what for anyone that’s critical thinking about this is government is it’s a completely
46:30
fictional construct right it’s you can’t even create anything that’s called legitimate government just like
46:36
in the old days like you say render under caesar now people surely believe that caesar was their rightful ruler
46:42
during the roman times but no one alive today would say and matter of fact foolishly and naively most people would say oh i would never
46:49
agree to that now if they were raised in that environment they might be indoctrinated into believing that caesar is their rightful
46:56
ruler as well right because you get certain thought leaders in society
47:01
look at look at europe where all are the leaders were claimed descendants from god and they believed that right
47:06
right right so tell me what what part of the united states what part
47:12
of the united states has the least effective government the most disorganized government
47:17
the you know that what would you guess well i’ll give you a hint it’s where i
47:23
am right now it’s where i am right now and where you where i’m not going to move from the us virgin islands
47:29
yeah you talk about uh uh if that end of the spectrum compared to
47:35
government in the rest of the state states this is it so look we’re not okay but we still have you know uh
47:43
cause for collective action and whether you call it government or whether you call it a group of people getting together to do something for
47:50
some common purpose to me that’s the we need that you know maybe you don’t call that government that’s fine
47:56
let’s call it something else yeah you can’t really that’s that’s why like i said so that’s me okay i won’t call it government i won’t call it government
48:03
so what i start as is we need collective action so what are the things we need collective actions for
48:09
and one of the big things that we need collective action for is to uh work against what i call racist to
48:16
the bottom are you familiar with those yeah what they call racism so if you go to a football game
48:21
and if you stand up you can see better but if everybody stands up uh nobody can see better and nobody can
48:28
sit down so there’s cause for collective action to say all right look you can always stand up for 15 seconds or something and
48:34
then sit down or something like that otherwise you know and we’re all better off if we do
48:39
that and there has to be some kind of enforcement you get somebody drunk who won’t sit down you know you got to do something about
48:45
it whether you’ve got four or five people to move them away or bring in a helicopter and take them out
48:50
i don’t know but you know you got to come up collectively come up with some solution to disrupting what is making it so we have
48:58
we have states in the u.s now they are government and i’m not saying we should have states
49:04
but we do and they and the federal government has set them when they set up the federal government
49:10
they were left to compete with each other and develop what i call these races to the bottom
49:16
that only the federal government can stop so for example uh before we had federal uh emissions rules
49:24
and i’m not saying we’ve got the best federal mission rules believe me i’m not saying that been banging my head against
49:30
the wall with a lot of stupidity okay so don’t don’t put me in a position of defending that stuff
49:36
but we before we had that now it was the state that allowed the most pollution
49:42
got the most businesses got the most money okay and so we had this race to the bottom
49:47
and it didn’t stop until rivers in ohio started catching fire and then at that point there was collective action to say okay
49:54
we have minimum standards for the states today we have something similar going on where
50:00
the states compete with each other for businesses by giving tax breaks and the state that gives the most tax
50:06
breaks gets the most businesses well how do you get the most tech you know how do you
50:12
give the most tax breaks well you spend the least on education or you spend the least on your roads or
50:17
something and so the states that are most starved for public services get the most business now maybe we think
50:24
that’s a good thing but nobody’s pointing it out so i’m the guy pointing it out saying look we’ve got this race to the bottom
50:30
you know amazon is competing with everybody and amazon’s not bad for doing that they’re following the law amazon is not
50:37
the billing you don’t want to demonize amazon you want to demonize congress for setting up the states
50:42
so that they’re in this race to the bottom against each other whoever gives amazon the most money i would say wins but loses the least
50:49
they get a company in it’ll pay no taxes but it’s better they got some jobs and it’s better than no company congress set
50:55
that up and europe has that problem they call it levelized tax structure for all the members so they don’t get in
51:02
this race to the bottom i’m not trying to get in an argument over the this particular race to the
51:07
bottom but but there are a lot of races to the bottom that happen all the time and i see it as a role for collective
51:13
action to limit that happening when it does not serve public purpose
51:18
if people get together and think collective action could serve public purpose for something you know i don’t always
51:25
agree but i understand that that’s a legitimate place for collective action yeah well let me just say in terms of this
51:32
collective action because that’s actually something that’s really important and for libertarians it’s really important for us to talk about that because people do get this preconceived
51:38
notion and of course because libertarians are very individualistic and they want and people interpret i even i have
51:44
arguments and debates with other libertarians trust me but the whole the whole pretense once again
51:50
this collective action is in a voluntary means or in a in a free market environment so you know in the at with
51:56
the absence of government you know the bad things good things can both happen in the economic sphere but
52:02
the beautiful thing about not having a one-size-fits-all approach or or force as the ultimate means to the end in any economic exchange or interaction
52:09
is that actually creates competition and that’s that’s i think competition is what is actually like i say takes you
52:16
from going to the race to the bottom and actually this is an elevate you know that’s actually i i noticed that
52:22
actually when i was watching one of your videos you had mentioned that you’re you’re quite into
52:27
to uh i think you’re into uh building were you building cars or racing yeah i had a car company yeah right so so and as
52:35
you’re aware then someone i i built my first engine when i was 18 years old in the back of my stepfather’s pickup truck i’ve always
52:41
been into it um i was just even as a small kid my dad i learned from him
52:46
and and then ever since then i’ve built them and to me and it’s that that the fundamentals of
52:52
understanding not just how an engine put together like put an intake a car but but stepping back and actually
52:58
understanding the characteristics of how an internal combustion engine works and then once again
53:03
extrapolating that knowledge and figuring things out so once again in the economic realm because i recognize that government is forced taxation is staffed
53:10
but what i would suggest is that’s probably in if you want a collective action then you would at least want to remove
53:17
that threat of force which is the only the only area where that can properly take place or function is in a free market because all the free
53:23
market means is just free people right so if three people individuals just like myself
53:28
how do i discover a price for any particular commodity or service or product how is by voluntarily offering
53:35
in in any kind of exchange with someone on the other side of it and the minute we’ve come to an agreement yeah and we
53:42
both walk away from that transaction right just like you know milton friedman with the pencil thing your dollar you give me the pencil but
53:48
that completely makes sense and most people well anyone i’ve ever talked to completely understand that that’s the
53:53
beauty of the free market of volunteers yeah but now how do you but you have to deal with the disparity
53:58
of power too right so if you’re making an exchange with someone who has a gun and you don’t
54:04
there’s a disparity of power well yeah well you see that’s why that but that’s why i personally would advocate for something that’s
54:10
decentralized where governments can’t control which would be like something like a gold silver or a cryptocurrency
54:16
although as far as i’m concerned um there’s been many times in the past you know whether you’re oh yeah no no i’m not talking about the money i’m talking
54:21
about how do you come to terms with somebody you have to have you know you can’t have a major
54:27
disparity of power you don’t have a free market well no but there’s always going to be people are going to seek
54:32
power that’s always been the case but i understand i understand government is that one entity that creates the
54:38
pretense that can create monopolies right whereas in the free market environment and i know you’re probably not a fan of
54:44
iran but i think she did the most amazing job and in one of the interviews she did in pushing back uh what was it mike
54:51
wallace maybe back in the day that was interviewing her that said that he set up this scenario that if someone had all
54:57
of the nuclear um fuel or energy in one particular and she said you know basically no one could ever
55:04
come to monopolize such a thing because it could never become such a required or demanded product
55:10
you know if one person owned it all right so it wouldn’t ever get out to that to that point where
55:15
and so basically what she was saying is you know and i would definitely agree there if once you remove the mechanisms of
55:21
force government off the table then you can actually have access to a multitude of not just wealth
55:27
wealth producing you know commodities services products or or anything else as far as that matter
55:33
but because it happens in a voluntary means then everyone along that chain every single person without exception
55:40
will walk away from that exchange feeling like they have you know been rewarded or at least properly
55:45
compensated whereas government arbitrary edicts in terms of monetary policy
55:51
even things that as simple as right now under the current system that you’re describing uh minimum wages they’re terrible
55:57
they’re detrimental not just for the people for multitudes of reasons that have already been described and explained in the past
56:04
but i’ll even add like uh because i’ve known people and my family have worked in them and if you see these environments let’s say
56:09
you have a dozen people all getting paid at 14 an hour to work at the grocery store let’s say
56:15
everyone sees it it’s not hard to recognize that pareto distribution principle it’s real there’s going to be
56:20
a very small percentage about 10 of that the workforce is going to be doing you know probably
56:26
50 percent of the work but yet everyone’s being paid so you get this this point where you’re back into that
56:31
scenario that you were describing earlier where you’re racing to the bottom where the people are working the hardest recognize that why am i continuing to do
56:38
this when the other person over there they can take a smoke break every five minutes
56:43
run to the lunchroom three or four times in the day yeah and they’re getting paid the same thing that’s the thing with this kind of or any kind of
56:50
essential that’s called that’s called that’s called moral hazard yes exactly yes
56:55
what they used to say in russia was uh we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us
57:00
exactly yes i know that expression and i assure you that’s quite apt and applicable yeah in many places in
57:06
our jurisdictions as well but see that’s that’s the area and that’s kind of where i’m trying to dig it because i
57:12
i don’t see you like but but again that’s right there’s a guy that’s being reasonable you’re i i get that you
57:17
you’re trying to figure these things out but i i’m just curious just curious in demand here why would you want to
57:23
give government because we recognize the government i’m just curious why wouldn’t you want like market forces and and
57:29
freedom and independence to create that environment this economic environment rather than
57:35
and maybe even or maybe even having competing possibilities like right now in the crypto space you have bitcoin you have
57:41
your ethereum you know being a mainstay and something that will
57:46
you know reproduce those three core values of money where it can give you exchange value retain value
57:52
and measure value how that plays out i don’t know but if it’s if as long as no government intervenes to prevent that
57:57
from taking place in in the freedom and what people really choose to adopt well then that’s how and let’s say some
58:04
people want to do it the crypto or bitcoin way and other people want to do that the beauty of the free market is
58:09
you get to do your thing and people who want to do your kind of thing and in your own monetary system so so
58:15
what’s your what’s your problem with bitcoin you can go buy one sell and you can do whatever you want yeah wrong with them whatsoever
58:23
i’m just wondering why you keep bringing it up because i don’t see a problem no i don’t i don’t i think actually what
58:28
i think and this is like where i can get to is if we do get to the point and i and this is what i believe is where let’s say you
58:35
uh mmt because i consider mmp almost like keynesianism on steroids but is uh you’ll get people
58:43
you must have you must have read that some you must have read that somewhere i i may have but i i’m like i use a lot
58:50
of like on steroids kind of things i’ve actually guys i come up with my own terminology for lots of stuff
58:56
i yeah liberty requires evolution not revolution i i coined them
59:01
i come up with lots of little things but like i said what at the end of the day it’s it’s competing competing whether
59:07
people are what want to create currencies or something monetary system like i say under any competition
59:14
people are allowed to create any currency or whatever they want i i you know to me bitcoin is an investment vehicle
59:20
and i don’t i don’t know exactly what a currency means except i know it’s not a tax credit but technically it’s not you can’t use
59:27
it to pay taxes so it’s not a tax credit like the dollar others but it’s an investment vehicle like gold or silver
59:32
and look it’s a certificate that says you solved the puzzle mining is solving a puzzle if you solve
59:38
a puzzle you get a certificate that says you solve the puzzle that’s all it is now why that is valuable
59:44
i can go into that on another show i don’t want to go into it but that’s what it is and if people want to earn certificates
59:51
that say they solve puzzles and somebody else wants to pay buy them from them it’s their business okay and if it
59:57
goes up to a million and if it goes down to zero it’s of no consequence to me and it should be of no consequence to
1:00:03
the government so uh it’s just another investment vehicle out there that does
1:00:08
what it does same as the price of gold the government doesn’t care what the price of gold is or the price of silver that’s people making their personal
1:00:15
decisions on whether they want to buy it or sell it at that price now when central banks come in and buy gold i’ve got a problem with that that’s
1:00:22
government now interfering in the market and supporting the price it’s like why are you doing that yeah i
1:00:27
definitely agree with you on that one yeah that’s right but at least we can go out and buy and sell all the gold we want
1:00:33
you’re free to do it you know i’m free to do it i don’t see a problem with that stuff so i don’t i don’t even mention it because it to me
1:00:39
it’s not part of the problem so let’s look at um again if we get back
1:00:45
to mmt number one okay why is it there why is it headline news why why is people hear you
1:00:51
because we pointed out that they all have this sequence backwards number two less well-known we’ve pointed
1:00:57
out that the cause of unemployment is taxation by design
1:01:02
to get people to work for the money look for the money so government can hire them you may not like it but that’s the force
1:01:09
at work if you want to deal with what you see and try and fix it i think it helps to understand the forces that
1:01:15
are creating it okay um and the third thing which i’ll bring up now is that
1:01:23
they’ve got the interest rate thing backwards and essential the natural rate the rate that would be
1:01:29
there if the government did not interfere is zero and that’s what i brought up
1:01:34
with bob murphy with a floating exchange rate which is what we have fiat currency tax credits
1:01:40
the the rate of interest the policy rate the risk-free rate not the rate you and
1:01:45
i would pay but the policy rate that they from the at the federal reserve for
1:01:50
balances on their accounts is zero it only goes above zero if they take
1:01:56
action to support it above zero either pay interest on reserves or sell treasury securities which they
1:02:01
don’t have to do if they don’t do either of those things the rate stays at zero so in that sense
1:02:07
from the libertarian sense the natural rate is zero and you’ve got a and the burden of proof is on you to show me
1:02:13
why they should support we should have government intervention to have a rate higher than zero
1:02:18
now they try and make you think the opposite oh government’s suppressing the rate lower than the natural market rate that’s not true for
1:02:25
floating exchange rates it is true for fixed exchange rates like hong kong and bulgaria and the gold standard but not with
1:02:32
today’s system so they’ve got that thing backwards the whole interest rate thing when they
1:02:37
raise rates they’re throwing gasoline on the fire the government is a big net payer of interest to the economy
1:02:43
they’re spewing out more money to people who already have money you might be against for or against the
1:02:49
government handing out money but there aren’t too many people for the government to hand out four or five hundred billion dollars a year to
1:02:54
people just because they already have money and that’s what paying interest on that thing is and
1:03:00
it’s not looked at that way again if the government if if collectively we look at it that way
1:03:05
and decide that’s a good thing fine but that’s not the way it’s not being viewed for what it actually is
1:03:11
so once again lowering rates causes inflation to come down not go up
1:03:18
if you look at japan 30 years of zero rates and no inflation europe 10 years the u.s 10 years it’s
1:03:24
come what i’m saying is that zero rates cause the inflation rate to be lower than otherwise they’ve got it backwards it’s it’s to
1:03:31
them it’s the carpenter with a piece of wood no matter how much i cut off it’s still too short they keep lowering rates to
1:03:37
get inflation higher and it keeps going lower they’ve got it backwards well actually that’s the area that i think
1:03:43
especially when you’re talking about inflation now in terms of the bank of japan obviously that’s that’s a vast case on
1:03:49
its own but inflation i even constantly hear you know whether you’re talking about the the governor this the
1:03:55
bank of canada or even some of the politicians in the of the trudeau regime or even down in
1:04:00
the u.s whether it’s under biden or trump when they’re constantly talking about that you know inflation is
1:04:07
is not there well the problem is is the way they describe or where they measure inflation and as you realize whether you’re talking about
1:04:13
the cpi measurement or gauges yeah everything is good they’ve changed things to the point
1:04:18
where the things that are most important like i’ll tell you in canada housing right is way more
1:04:26
than that i’ve got anyway i’ve got it i’ve got an answer i’ve got to answer that too but let’s
1:04:32
well let me let me just finish here let me give you the okay but the important thing about mmt
1:04:38
what i’m saying here so so basically they tell us here in canada that inflation they’re trying to get up to two percent
1:04:44
inflation and they just can’t hit that target but once again because we all recognize well i mean anyone that pays attention to this
1:04:50
is yes because of the the the exchange of our fiat currencies as it pertains to whether it’s us dollar the canadian
1:04:56
dollar as comparison or contract the yuan or the remember whichever you want well no remember
1:05:01
in word one i think d1 is the edward anyways that exchange rate plays a huge role in
1:05:06
the fact that you know the prices seem to constantly be lowering or decreasing in in terms of
1:05:12
you know whether you’re buying from korea or china and stuff like that right housing the roof overhead which is much
1:05:18
much more important like important to me like i say than going to the dollarama and buying a four dollar hammer right
1:05:24
that’s it’s great that i can buy a four dollar hammer i’m not against that entirely of course right like i said the roof over my head
1:05:29
the gas in my tank right we’re seeing inflation massive inflation actually in canada
1:05:35
groceries and it’s not just there’s a double uh entendre when i talk about inflation
1:05:40
that most people even even average canadians that have no idea in terms of monetary policy are starting to catch on to
1:05:45
it’s not just the pricing trees but the the the the reduction in so perfect
1:05:51
like we what we use in canada is our brick of cheese a brick of cheese used to be 500 grams half
1:05:57
you know half a kilogram is what a brick of cheese used to be now they’re down to 400 400 grams the
1:06:03
prices are continuing to increase and actually you’re getting less of the actual commodities so it’s a double
1:06:08
right it’s a double tax look at look at the swiss they put holes in it
1:06:14
[Laughter] good one yeah that’s right but bacon is
1:06:19
another one bacon used to be considered a pound right 454 grams was a pound of bacon
1:06:24
now there’s 375 grams the price once again the prices is completely outstripped and what any
1:06:31
basic market fundamental would suggest it would be but because in canada we have so much management talk down government
1:06:37
regulation and waste i can say this these are things that have real world effect and like i say
1:06:42
all the things that we need to sustain ourselves so there’s definitely a lot of inflation it’s just that the way it’s being
1:06:47
reported and measured is leaving people that like i say even the unsuspecting the guy that dropped out of grade eight
1:06:53
he’s recognizing that they’re lying to them he just doesn’t understand you know like what you and i do in terms
1:06:59
of how that monetary policy and all that stuff plays into it but that’s the kind of people i try to appeal to and why i
1:07:04
want to discuss this with you there’s going to be a lot of laymen that don’t understand mmt
1:07:10
how this is going to look yeah so what mmt tells you what mmt tells you what the understanding of
1:07:15
monetary operations tells you is that yes you have all those issues but they don’t have anything to do with
1:07:21
the low interest rates the low interest rates are actually making it better high interest rates would make it worse
1:07:27
okay and i won’t run through the whole analysis that’s what mmt is about you could disagree but i can give you a
1:07:32
pretty heavy analysis i just who’s your new uh thank you canada president tiff uh
1:07:38
macklemore yeah yeah yeah i actually met with him sorry i can discuss this at whatever
1:07:43
level you want them i don’t want to go into that but what i do want to go into you with is where the source of the
1:07:49
price level comes from why is why do things cost what they do
1:07:54
and there is no mainstream school of economics that can tell you that they can only tell you what might make
1:08:00
it change but they can’t tell you why it is where it is they can only tell you that
1:08:06
okay they can’t they don’t have a theory for that their models
1:08:14
and actually it’s literally economics 101 it’s called supply and demand yeah but that doesn’t tell you why the
1:08:20
price today is a dollar it could everything could be a hundred times we could start trading in pennies now
1:08:26
everything will be 100 times higher and everything still works supply and demand still works they can’t tell you why the
1:08:32
price level in dollars in canadian dollars is at this level they can change tell
1:08:37
you what’s operating you know to get it there but if the whole thing was 10 times higher or 10
1:08:42
times lower it would operate the same way nothing would change if everybody had 10 times as much income
1:08:49
then everything would just work 10 times higher right well i would suggest for me on from my perspective in terms
1:08:56
of the housing market especially in canada the fact that in particular you know if
1:09:01
you get in onto that scheme early on when government was doing lots of stimulating of the i mean that happened you know back after
1:09:07
world war ii right you got to remember the whole uh new deal and that stuff so yes people
1:09:12
gotta get in very early and yeah early on they can tell you
1:09:17
they can tell you i’m just telling you as a fact you can talk to any senior economist they’ll tell you why
1:09:22
our prices are going up or try to they can understand that they can understand why they change they can’t understand
1:09:28
the starting point the the source of the price level they don’t have that it’s not in any of their models um
1:09:36
but mmt knows exactly the source of the price levels so i’ve given you four mmt things the
1:09:41
sequence um the unemployment the um what we just went over uh and
1:09:46
now the source of the price the interest rates now the source of the price level okay let’s go back to africa the british
1:09:54
say the tax is so much how much do they pay
1:10:01
for a day’s work in the coffee plantation where does that come from okay they have to decide because they’re
1:10:07
the monopolist monopolists are price setters they’re not price takers
1:10:13
okay when you have competition you have to assume numerous sellers and numerous buyers you can’t just have one
1:10:19
because then you don’t have competition then you don’t have a free market you have a monopoly okay whether it’s a
1:10:24
state-sponsored monopoly or some guy who’s you know in somalia with a humvee
1:10:30
with guns and it’s his monopoly but there’s a monopolist they’re the drug guy with the monopoly in the neighborhood
1:10:35
no he okay monopolist set price now i know there are limits and they can make a mistake
1:10:40
in a sense that they could set a price that has bad effects but then they have to change the price it doesn’t change unless they change it
1:10:46
the public utility that has the whole city they set the price there’s not some auction continuously because you have
1:10:52
one seller one provider one supplier that supplier the single supplier is
1:10:59
price set the government and its agents the collective thing we call government
1:11:06
is the single supplier of the tax credit of the dollars of the canadian dollars
1:11:11
they are setting price when they spend whether they know it or not whether you know it or not
1:11:17
there’s no as a point of logic they’re setting the terms of exchange we’ll give you 40 000 to be a soldier
1:11:23
we’ll give you a hundred thousand to be a judge will give you you know money for being alive and now
1:11:29
you’re my agent when you go spend it and you’re now setting price for me which is very insidious right
1:11:35
and uh so what the government has the money that
1:11:41
we need or else we’re going to lose our house in their car it’s coercive they are setting terms of exchange when
1:11:46
they spend end of story and that’s where it all starts now that understanding
1:11:52
doesn’t so much tell you what to do but it tells you what not to do it gives you a lot of things that we’re
1:11:57
doing about inflation that don’t work and give bad results because our policy makers our economists don’t understand
1:12:04
that source of the price level so that’s the fourth thing i’m going to have time to discuss about mmt these are
1:12:11
all critical for understanding for having an informed decision made about
1:12:17
these important issues that you’ve brought up okay and so i’ve been doing this for 30 years trying
1:12:22
to get these four things understood so we could have better inputs into our policy that’s all i can
1:12:28
tell you right but once again a little bit respect that would be so once you start down the road and i definitely recognize
1:12:34
like government using force and set pricing is something that has taken place but once again that to me it takes
1:12:40
me back to the same thing yeah shrinking the microcosm in my own personal situation or any kind of setting which is you know
1:12:47
if i use force you know to like if i did that in a family or in my own community setting where i’m the one that’s
1:12:53
arbitrarily setting prices well gonna be as as as what it is with because we
1:13:00
humans do have free will as far as we know right um there’s always going to be people that are going to trying to
1:13:05
escape right the minute you’ve set some arbitrarily priced whether it’s a floor or a ceiling
1:13:10
there’s going to be someone going to try to escape that and find some market mechanism where they can find a
1:13:16
different price discovery on their own so as a government is which is why government constantly from keynesian
1:13:23
radon until now white continues to grow exponentially to the point where now you don’t
1:13:28
not just need central banks but you need coordination of the central banks all over the globe is because
1:13:34
people three people are going to try always to find ways to get it from sure they’re going to try but let’s go back
1:13:39
to the situation in africa you live in a village you have this tax you have to pay the only source of the crown right is
1:13:46
the government the british paying 10 a day to work on the coffee plantation there’s no way there’s no way around
1:13:52
that you could get somebody else to do it for you if you had influence send your mother out to go to
1:13:57
work okay but as far as the government is concerned they’re going to get their people and if the tax is 10
1:14:03
000 they pay 10 a day they’re going to get a thousand days work at least they’re going to get extra because people are going to want to save okay
1:14:10
that’s that’s just a fact based on this double coercion the tax and the single supplier of what
1:14:16
you need to pay the tax and that’s what you’re up against with government right now so what i’d like to think is that i’ve
1:14:22
enlighten you somewhat on what you’re actually up against in your discussions i’m not giving you
1:14:28
the answers you’ve got yours no i definitely know what i’m up against that actually i think you know
1:14:33
i think you know more now what you’re up against yeah well i definitely appreciate all the additives
1:14:38
i’ve always understood well at least for the last decade government is you know by natural extension you know i’m gonna be a force
1:14:45
of violence and taxation is theft and the fact that it’s it’s basically it’s all built on mysticism to be honest with you because
1:14:51
i don’t have any authority to to dictate anyone’s lives nor do i have any authority like i can’t delegate any
1:14:56
authority that i don’t have and government government literally pretends that people can delegate
1:15:02
authorities they don’t have on to other human beings well the government government has been given taxing
1:15:08
authority by the council no well what it is here’s what it is it’s just like in the end and the means to enforce it okay
1:15:15
it’s no past that human slavery was accepted right it was it was the belief the only reason
1:15:22
why slavery existed as a structure as as a an institution
1:15:27
was because believed in it the minute you remove that belief like today we’re still we’re still quasi slaves but yeah you
1:15:34
know we no longer believe that actual human ownership where some other human being says okay
1:15:39
this person is my property nobody well i’m sure some people do but i ain’t
1:15:46
right we are we are we are awesome if i believe in authority that gives
1:15:52
governments the ability to do what you’ve been saying and why they’ve been getting away with it for for for centuries for millennia to be
1:15:58
honest with you yeah but i think about what i would suggest i would suggest all not just
1:16:03
just like the gutenberg breasts played a key role to bring about the enlightenment era and getting economics out from under you
1:16:10
know the king being the yeah the divine right of the king i would suggest in
1:16:15
in 2021 in the information age where we can have real world exchanges like we’re doing today in real time and long-form uninterrupted
1:16:23
i would say if this is continued unabated and unrestricted and encumbered for for much
1:16:29
longer i would suggest we may get to the point where we might go through another intellectual evolution
1:16:35
i call i’ve coined it actually enlightenment era 2.0 where people will no longer believe and
1:16:40
once you’ve removed that belief in these authorities they’ve lost all power entirely over your purse
1:16:48
it’s already happened we’ve had we’ve had a former president lead an invasion
1:16:53
of a physical invasion of congress where people were killed you can’t say it’s not happening oh for
1:16:59
sure it’s happening and that’s why i’m saying which is why i don’t know why you would want to advocate for anything where
1:17:04
government’s going to have central planning control right well you’ve got to stop uh if anything else i guess i haven’t
1:17:10
been successful until convincing you that that’s not what i’m advocating for anything okay actually yeah so let’s get to that
1:17:16
point because that’s the part that i think maybe you know i get you’re helping to describe the current system but what but
1:17:22
mmt suggests that you still maintain most of the current structures of the
1:17:27
system that’s like it’s not it’s not saying that at all what we’re saying is if you have a goal
1:17:35
of no inflation two percent inflation i will show you how to do that through
1:17:41
my understanding of the monetary system if you have a goal of full employment i will show you how to do that
1:17:47
if you want the people who are unemployed to transition back to the private sector i will show
1:17:52
you how to do that because that’s they were taken away by the government if you want them to to work in the public sector i will show
1:17:58
you how to do that i can show you how this tool called the monetary system works
1:18:05
and how to use it for specific goals within the system if you don’t like any of it and you want to change the system
1:18:11
abandon it eliminate taxation i’m not saying you know you certainly have a right to
1:18:16
move in that direction i’m not so i’m not like i’m saying that i’m trying to have people make more
1:18:23
informed decisions by giving you the information as to how this look everybody out there has got
1:18:28
these diesel cars and they’re arguing about the right spark plugs okay and i’m trying to say look there’s no spark plugs in the disease and a diesel
1:18:35
it’s a compression-fired thing i’m not telling you to drive a diesel or drive a gasoline car just trying to get the debate on you
1:18:42
know the actual terms of what’s that are grounded in the operation of the system
1:18:47
so what i’ve told you are what’s ground you know or how the system works it’s bulletproof
1:18:53
it’s tied into it tells you how the debits and credits work where the forces are and if you want to then do something
1:18:59
about it now you’ve got the raw material to go out and do it right but what you’re describing is once again only way
1:19:05
that scenario works and i think you would agree to this is because you keep using that and even a couple of the gentlemen today it only
1:19:10
works with coercive taxation exactly that’s what i’m saying so with that that’s my opening line
1:19:16
that’s number one in mmt this system is based entirely on coercive taxation
1:19:21
right that’s that’s our open mind so that that’s not the same as advocating
1:19:27
for it right right well i’m i’m very glad that you actually point that out because that’s that’s a very important key factor and people are at
1:19:34
least if people are listening to you in terms of the monetary uh school or whatever mt at least they’re
1:19:40
getting that basis and understanding because to me like i say how things are going to play i i don’t know i’m not a central planner
1:19:45
i’ve never played so let me add one let me add one more thing of there are a lot of mmt proponents out there
1:19:52
who are who are totally out in the weeds okay yeah there are a lot of keynesian
1:19:57
economists that keynes would not agree with okay all right yeah but i’m the source of the
1:20:03
monetary side of of all of this and of the uh monetary operations side i started this
1:20:10
uh in 1992 i think within the financial sector and these
1:20:16
are people who you know central bankers people like that i introduced it to the academic community maybe three years later in
1:20:22
1996 and i’ve been working with them but both communities have developed
1:20:27
proponents who are way out there okay but that’s just the way it is i would assume the academic those in the
1:20:34
academic field or anyone who predominantly come from the public sector yeah
1:20:40
they’re probably fine except in any of these uh policy procedures because i i got to tell you i’ve got a few of them
1:20:46
in my family they’re not they’re not the greatest they’re not on the greatest footing but these people have no clue how
1:20:51
value is actually created i’m telling you the keynesians are still um you know out there telling me i’m
1:20:56
wrong and and disputing things that are accounting identities it’s just madness they’ve been a bypassed okay um
1:21:04
it’s like you know libertarians i’m sure there’s a lot of libertarians who are way out there right you guys are not all the same yeah same
1:21:11
thing with mmt proponents right exactly if you get that if you get back to the source this is it here what
1:21:17
i’m telling you but do you believe okay let me bring one up i’ve got to go to another
1:21:22
uh meeting oh you have another meeting oh cause i had a i had lots more there but anyways i don’t
1:21:28
want to dig up we can do this again anytime you want yeah for sure warren actually that’s that’s what i want to do because i
1:21:33
at least want to break them up today and and to show you you know that i not here to just try to play it got you
1:21:39
in like i don’t get oh i won against some guy that i you know i’m not interested in that
1:21:44
let me let me tell you something i am hoping that you would do that so i could stop doing this and get a life okay
1:21:50
but so far after 30 years of people of all levels it hasn’t happened so here i am
1:21:56
unfortunately yeah well like i say well then we’ll if you wouldn’t mind warren like i say i wouldn’t mind
1:22:01
you again because there was quite a lot that i didn’t quite get to okay um but i like but i like the free
1:22:08
flow of the conversation you know what i mean so that’s why i kind of let it just kind of go at its natural course
1:22:14
i would have obviously liked to been able to get to a little bit more of the the um there’s a lot more that i wanted to
1:22:20
dig down into it but once again i’m appreciative you did take the time of today and would maybe at some point
1:22:25
time you know in the not so distant future if we could maybe touch down on this uh topic again and we’ll hammer in a
1:22:31
little bit more of these ideas but i do really do really appreciate you coming on here and have this chat with me today
1:22:36
good i appreciate the invitation thank you very much all right have a good one warren take it easy
1:22:43
all right okay folks so uh i unfortunately didn’t quite get to
1:22:51
uh like i said i wanted to let him get all as much information out as he wanted to
1:22:57
and because you know i i want to be fair to anyone that i have an interview with you know what
1:23:02
i’m not the short-term thinking kind of guy right i want to to dig down deep into these kinds of
1:23:09
conversations or debate and and like i say hopefully i’ll be able to get that opportunity at some point and i’ll just throw this
1:23:15
out for you folks that are in the chat here because uh just to just throw out a few things
1:23:20
and by actually i was going to do this first and i probably should have um what are your underlying principles
1:23:27
that guide your decisions perspective and opinions regarding economics as it pertains to real human beings
1:23:32
or are you just making a utilitarian argument because as you recognize you know if government is forced i mean i can make the utilitarian or the
1:23:39
utility argument that using force you know can benefit well especially if you’re the one on the receiving side of
1:23:45
that that force it can be beneficial not just to individuals but entire collectives no doubt but it comes at the expense right of
1:23:52
someone else it’s it’s not it’s not just you know wealth isn’t just magically created
1:23:57
out of nowhere it’s somehow when you’re talking about these schemes some something is being harmed or someone is
1:24:04
being harmed right when you’re when you’re picking winners or losing to the economy and i always like to know is what what
1:24:10
are what once again what are your underlying morals your ethics or the principles that guide your decisions and
1:24:15
that that can usually help expand on a lot from a person’s thought process and one
1:24:20
another one too is although we already got that government is a monopoly of force so yes so so that and and he agreed oh i didn’t
1:24:28
get the chance to uh and once again i don’t like getting too personal about this stuff with people but i will say
1:24:35
you know john maynard keynes himself um you know i did he didn’t have any children and from
1:24:40
what i gather i believe he might have even been gay nothing against that once again but you know if you have no
1:24:46
offspring or success of generations that you got to think about right and i didn’t get to the point of
1:24:51
asking him and i feel bad about this which is why i don’t want a straw man i don’t want to misrepresent the man in any way but i would have liked to ask
1:24:57
the question because i heard a another lady that’s a promo proponent of mmt
1:25:02
say uh and the big thing about the the deficit myth right it’s like well no
1:25:08
because each generation that comes along right taxation goes towards paying off
1:25:14
the debts or the deficits that were accumulated from past or prior generations so economically enslaving you know entire
1:25:21
generations to pay for you know the malfeasance or the or the bad choices economic choices from people in the past
1:25:27
right i would like to ask warren what what are your thought processes on that why why you know
1:25:32
now if you don’t have kids right you’re not thinking of that not to suggest that he’s a bad person in
1:25:38
any particular way i don’t like i said i don’t know the man well enough to make it a judgment as far as that goes but if
1:25:43
you don’t have kids you’re maybe not thinking about you know like the the long-term effect or that
1:25:49
intergenerational effect that big government and deficits and debts and money printing might have right
1:25:55
and that’s just one aspect of it right there’s also the inflation aspect of it the loss in that productivity and
1:26:02
purchasing power there’s all kinds of other areas too um and of course any system or structure
1:26:07
that is built on the use of force as a means to the end will always appeal to and entice the worst among us to join and control
1:26:15
them power crops so so this is what i was going to get to to it like is if government you know is is in control
1:26:21
what i recognize is the current system today and this is an area like say i agree with warren in terms of his description
1:26:28
of this underlying structure but i would suggest and i i think he would probably or at least i would hope he would tend to agree that it’s quite
1:26:34
cropped in nature and causing a tremendous amount of harms economic and social harms to a lot of people so
1:26:41
why advocate for the continuation or ramping up basically this current system but once
1:26:46
again i don’t want to like i say the last thing i want to do is straw man or misrepresent anyone so i
1:26:52
will actually i’m going to put this way like i said i had lots and lots lined up that i wanted to get to and like i say i’ll reach out to warren
1:27:00
um maybe give it a month or so um not sure but give it some time and i’ll reach out and
1:27:05
possibly will have another subsequent conversation and maybe you know i’ll get it set up so that it’s
1:27:11
more just boom question and answer kind of deal but like i said i want to at least get
1:27:16
to know the man you know give him the time to to expand upon his thought processes and
1:27:21
the description of the current system so i i don’t know i think it was all right i think it’s pretty good right
1:27:26
and like i say we’ll get to the bottom of this kind of stuff at some point in time all we really require is like say to be
1:27:33
able to engage and interact with each other there’s nothing we humans can’t do that we can’t accomplish
1:27:38
if we put our minds to it and you know one mind right is a great and it can be very
1:27:44
powerful extremely powerful but multiple minds coming together right this is the kind of
1:27:49
collective action that i’m all for but once again it has to be built and based upon us treating each
1:27:55
other with dignity and respect and and recognizing our each each other’s individual sovereignty and
1:28:01
our liberty and using voluntary means rather than government as a means to an end and like i say the sky’s the limit
1:28:07
in terms of how we get out from underneath this current destructive
1:28:12
structure that incentivizes only the worst of the worst among us and the and and really bad habits and behaviors
1:28:19
so anyways i’m just going to check through the the comment section here see what’s going on i see steve’s in the chat
1:28:24
what’s going on stewart what’s going on stuart my friend what’s up y’all look at that look at all the emojis hey
1:28:31
what’s going on tax leave i love that username that’s the best my government is my enemy don’t call
1:28:37
your government yeah that’s calling it my government’s
1:28:42
almost sounds stockholm synergy just kidding just joking but yeah i get what you’re saying
1:28:48
banning government is a trap oh blaming government yeah yeah
1:28:53
uh well belief right the belief government and the belief thereof i’d
1:29:00
say both of them come in go hand in hand right i was not sure what’s that a oh
1:29:09
pirate flags sky lowry what do libertarians actually believe in
1:29:15
that’s a great question sky lowry and let me help you with that so libertarians believe in
1:29:22
self-ownership i am me and no other human being or entity right in case they exist right
1:29:29
but nothing in the universe has any legitimate claim of ownership over me i am me right
1:29:36
nobody owns me right so self-ownership i am me i own myself the and because i own
1:29:44
myself it naturally extends into my property rights which is anything that i produce and provide
1:29:50
as a concept of self-ownership my intellect the ideas or what i produce in the
1:29:55
physical realm in terms of labor right or the combination of labor with
1:30:00
resources or tools is whatever i create and construct is mine nobody gets to claim ownership
1:30:06
over that other than me and then the third tenet and an important principle of
1:30:12
libertarianism is the non-aggression principle that people should not use
1:30:17
preemptive force of violence or theft as a means remain don’t hit don’t steal don’t rape don’t
1:30:23
kill right pretty simple concepts matter of fact most of us if you were really raised you know with christian
1:30:30
fundamental values right and the ten commandments even if you weed them down a little bit right two to
1:30:36
four principles they’re basically aligned with like i say those fundamental values and principles of christianity
1:30:43
which is the individual the sovereignty of the individual like i say self-ownership
1:30:48
property rights and the non-aggression principle is not moral or ethical to use violence force
1:30:55
uh theft or anything like that towards a felon and those all of those things because
1:31:00
their negative rights mean they can be universalized or any right that someone claims to be positive
1:31:07
so when people say you know i have a right to health care well that’s a positive right
1:31:12
right a negative right is i i have the right for people not to use force against me yes you can universalize
1:31:17
that out and that is how a proper ethic you know plays out it has to be
1:31:23
universal it has to be consistent and it can’t be contradictory in nature whereas a positive right if i say that i
1:31:29
have a right to health care well how could i have a right to health care when i don’t have the ability to provide that health care someone else has to
1:31:35
provide that for me so if i say i have a right to it then that means i have some right or authority
1:31:41
to force someone right to provide that service
1:31:48
and no that that there’s no such thing as a positive right this stuff has kind of been has been
1:31:54
talked about and debunked extensively by lots of figureheads in the past
1:31:59
but i’m going to help reiterate it now it’s no you can’t put forth any premise or pretense that
1:32:05
you have a right to force anybody to do anything other than to not use force violence
1:32:10
like i say there are some things that can be universalized and many many things that can’t and that’s usually the best descriptive form
1:32:17
to help you understand what is a proper right and what isn’t what is it a privilege or an entitlement
1:32:24
right but hopefully i i answered your question uh in terms of uh what do libertarians
1:32:31
actually believe in because that is a really important question sky lowry that’s a that’s a really good hey what’s going on mr g rich thank you
1:32:37
for joining the stream my friend it’s all good hopefully you got it all and if you did not yeah you can always
1:32:43
go back and check it out a little later
1:32:48
uh what’s going on jesus hey jesus hallelujah ayn iran the one that went on government
1:32:54
food stamps i love how people like to use that right
1:32:59
governments like listen people go on government programs and you know if you’re intellectual enough to realize
1:33:05
that government is inherently immoral unethical and these are terrible things but hey they’re stealing from me
1:33:12
that’s the thing if you’re willing to recognize hey government steals from me every day or every paycheck or every
1:33:18
time i consume anything right or anytime i you know if i own a property in the tax
1:33:24
if you if you if you understand these things that government is by its definition using force and
1:33:31
theft as it’s being ten to end towards you and constantly claiming ownership
1:33:36
over a portion of your income or your wealth the fact that you’re willing to try to get a little bit of that back and
1:33:42
once again i i get how it can go terribly negative but that is just the reality
1:33:48
you know when someone is stealing from you and you want to get a little bit of that back at least if you understand that now if
1:33:54
you’re just someone that don’t even understand what government is and you just oh i want to get me some freebies at someone else’s expense
1:34:01
yes that makes you an unethical and immoral person whereas iran fully understood
1:34:07
acknowledged as much suggested that yeah i don’t want government to provide me with anything
1:34:13
i want zero from government but since government is already stealing large portions of my income or my
1:34:19
productivity and squandering wherever they choose to right picking winners or losing the economy
1:34:25
yeah sure i want to get a little bit that back but does that make her unethical
1:34:30
i mean you have to be willing to override ignore and overlook the fact that government like someone has already forcefully
1:34:37
taken from that woman before you can suggest that she’s somehow inherently immoral for clawing back a
1:34:43
little bit of of what the government took from her but i get it that is a that is a it is a to be honest with you
1:34:50
jesus or jesus it’s really tired man i mean that’ll play that’ll that’ll play to some people
1:34:57
and if you put that like i’m sure to a socialist right oh they’d be [ __ ] oh they’d be
1:35:02
sucking that up they’d be plodding you jesus they’d be like yeah jesus yeah of course if you talk to them
1:35:09
just a little while longer and figure how intellectually vigorous vigorous there and they’re thinking
1:35:15
uh you might not be so happy with the kind of people who are applauding or giving you accolades right so that’s the
1:35:20
thing who do you want to surround yourself with knuckle jaggers the people that are the ones that don’t think critically
1:35:26
or maybe people like myself because it seems like the fact that you’re watching this uh this um
1:35:33
video maybe you’re you’re curious or i don’t know maybe maybe you’re uh friends with uh someone else and maybe
1:35:41
you’re uh not a fan of vine rant i don’t know like i say i i i think the woman was
1:35:46
and the fact that you’re saying that she won’t debunk anything that she said how about you try to actually go against her
1:35:53
ideas that’s one thing i’ve never seen any of the any of the people that are are haters of
1:35:58
iran i’ve never he heard one of them debunk anything that she’s ever said attacker personal character oh yeah get
1:36:04
that all the time but debunk any of her philosophical thought processes or concept
1:36:10
not so much he’s definitely jacked up on whatever he’s getting at right on david uh like i say we were we
1:36:16
were getting there folks we were getting there and i i say i’m appreciative that he did come on and have this conversation
1:36:22
i just caught in or just caught in missed a bunch yeah sorry about that lamb not you can check this out after i
1:36:28
type the stream which will be shortly i’m just like i say just going through the comments see what everyone’s up to
1:36:33
i remember the last mmt stream the mmt guy was flustered this time mr cain libertarian seems flustered
1:36:38
but he keeps taking mr bozar is advocating mmt rather than he’s explained how it
1:36:45
functions um but modern monetary theory is
1:36:52
something that he thinks is both descriptive and prescriptive i i think he even acknowledged as much
1:36:59
and um so have a lot of other people that
1:37:04
follow his school of thought so that that’s why i had this uh conversation with today today now hopefully by him
1:37:10
maybe if if you’re if if it is the case that um uh warren moser if he’s not
1:37:18
advocating for mmt well then that’s a great clarifying thing and thank you for pointing that out there jesus i
1:37:24
i do appreciate that because maybe maybe just maybe this stream if people haven’t understood
1:37:30
it in the past will help expand on the fact that um based on what jesus is saying and his
1:37:36
interpretation of of warren mosler’s response here in this stream is he doesn’t advocate and actually i would
1:37:42
even agree that it seemed based on some of the pushback that he was given towards me in terms of
1:37:48
whether i was saying or when i was suggesting are you suggesting this is prescriptive or descriptive then i would actually agree with you
1:37:54
there jesus maybe it is the fact maybe it is a fact entirely and maybe i’ll get to figure that out
1:38:00
in our next chat that warren moser does not advocate for mmt and why wouldn’t he
1:38:07
maybe he recognizes that it won’t work either because he didn’t seem like to be i mean
1:38:12
he had you know things to say negative towards john maynard keynes
1:38:17
keynes in economics and like i’ve said before keynesian economics well mmt is basically keynesian
1:38:24
economics on steroids so hey if he’s just descripting or descriptive in terms of
1:38:30
of suggesting what mmt is then i’m with you there warren i’m with you so let’s let’s figure out something else here and
1:38:37
uh like i say there’s already lots of great minds out there doing just that which is why some of these
1:38:43
cryptocurrencies or actual commodity-based that’s something we never got to too is there are actually commodities or
1:38:50
cryptocurrencies that are coming out today there are some out there in the real world today
1:38:55
that are not just cryptocurrencies but also backed by a tangible commodity such as gold and silver
1:39:00
shut out the load paid and the fine folks over there for uh offering that a silver-backed
1:39:07
cryptocurrency what a great idea and concept that is so yeah so if that’s the case jesus that’s like
1:39:12
i say i’m great uh and once again i have nothing i have no animosity towards the
1:39:18
warren moses i don’t know the man enough right so if he’s he’s not an advocate and basically based
1:39:24
on what he said and what you’re suggesting here he’s not advocating for mmt then that should be something that maybe
1:39:30
a lot of the people who are fans of the mmt school probably should learn right that
1:39:36
he’s just pointing out you know what things can happen and if you want to keep the current very corrupt structure in place
1:39:43
then these are some of the descriptive measures that you would take place if you want to continue using force
1:39:48
violence and theft as your means to use
1:39:57
like i’m against it and maybe like you are against jesus then we’re all on the same we’re all in the
1:40:03
same boat i guess well so to speak right proverbially and being not just against the current
1:40:09
system but looking for ways to disrupt it entirely and i’m completely on board like i say i personally have chosen
1:40:17
to delve into finding ways to protect myself against the ultimate not just collapse
1:40:25
but potential whether it’s through the inflation deflation but the constant manipulation of my
1:40:31
worth and what i produce and provide in society in terms of economics but yeah thanks for mentioning that there hey rand paul
1:40:38
good one rant paul’s awesome rand paul would definitely like to see some more
1:40:43
from this conversation ah right on john doe yes and like i said i will hopefully get an opportunity to have another chat
1:40:50
um late is warren’s still on yeah sorry about that boss mandela mandala uh no uh he had to go
1:40:57
hit another prior arrangement but we did get to go an hour and a half we did cover some pretty good stuff
1:41:02
although like i say there was definitely a lot more uh to the conversation i was maybe a little bit longer getting into
1:41:08
the weeds of it because like i said i didn’t want to just go too hardcore on the guy i want to give him the time to explain
1:41:14
get you know get his i i want to treat a man fair and respectful and hopefully i did so and like say we’ll
1:41:20
get an opportunity to talk again let me move on here leon fisher you definitely need a follow-up chat yes
1:41:27
i would agree he would have a very clear answer to the question about whether deaths are passed from generation
1:41:32
awesome that’s that’s that’s really important that’s what i want to uh
1:41:37
because that’s a you know intergenerational theft something that you know as a as a father of two sons you know
1:41:44
something that not just me but affects a tremendous amount of people so yeah but thanks for mentioning that leon
1:41:49
fisher and thank you for joining the stream appreciate that okay let me go back up
1:41:58
here
1:42:08
okay okay here we go i don’t have offspring
1:42:15
but i want investments to benefit all our citizens and future citizens why do i need offspring to believe that
1:42:21
well if you had kids you would you would firmly grasp and understand that it’s it’s hard to explain it until you’ve
1:42:27
been placed in that position right but you know because you have an
1:42:33
automatic instinct because well i mean unless you well that’s not necessarily true either actually that’s you know
1:42:38
that’s not a universal actually there are some parents that don’t give a flying fashion with their kids actually there
1:42:44
are some parents that see their children as competitors in the marketplace right
1:42:50
of not just ideas but in the social and economic realm and want nothing more to keep them under
1:42:55
their thumb right so that’s not universal but good decent moral upstanding people you
1:43:01
know you you don’t want to place any burdens hardships or harms on your kids knowing that you know
1:43:07
life’s difficult enough as it is so when you actually have your own kids like i say
1:43:13
you really there there is no replacement for that right and i get it you can try your best
1:43:18
and i’ve tried my best you know to put myself in positions of people that i’ve never been in
1:43:24
and i try to do my best to explain or i mean to better understand people in those positions
1:43:30
but at the end of the day right for to have that real world applicable knowledge you have to be put
1:43:36
yourself you have to put yourself in that position because then you have that entire 18-year timeline
1:43:43
at least right or or so when you’re raising your you can’t imagine the kind of things that play out over the
1:43:49
course of those at least 18 years that will change so many areas of your minds and how you think about things or
1:43:54
perceive things right whereas when it’s just you yourself and like when you’re done like that’s it
1:44:00
right you know like once like you know if you’re a single person and you’re done i mean sure you might claim to care
1:44:05
about some people in the future and maybe you do but it’s not going to be the same as you know if you have that true love for your
1:44:13
kids you know kids that you put your own skin blood toiled and sweat and tears into
1:44:20
raising and educating and forming and doing all that stuff trust me there’s there’s a real world
1:44:26
applicable experience that is kind of required and needed for you to have that full grasp of understanding
1:44:32
not saying not suggesting that you can’t do your best to try to think about these things and i don’t know you as a person but it
1:44:39
definitely helps a tremendous amount i’m not sure he’s arguing for oh that’s a thing right it
1:44:45
maybe not maybe not he’s just describing a theory on how the current system operates um yeah so well that’s basically
1:44:53
keynesianism right because that’s what keynesian economics were that’s how governments are run today keynesian
1:44:58
economics where you give government right the ability to just print money to stimulate the economy
1:45:04
you know and then like tax it to get some of that so yeah so like you say in the
1:45:09
descriptive form yes i agree there’s he’s definitely describing
1:45:15
and economics but it’s that keynesian economics that has gotten us to the place today where you know most people are disenfranchised
1:45:22
with the system and finding or seeking alternative methods or measures to have
1:45:27
economic economic exchange or some kind of different alternative monetary policy or monetary system
1:45:33
keynesian was that bad that people are today willing to completely throw the baby
1:45:38
with the bad water and start completely anew right so keynesian was a big old fail for some it was it
1:45:45
was a boom for others right if you’re part and parcel of government if you’re the recipient of those proceeds of theft or forced wealth and
1:45:52
income redistribution you’re doing great and people on that side of the equation you’re always going to hear those people
1:45:57
they’re like yeah keynesianism is great mmt is great
1:46:03
but if you’re the on the opposing side of that the one that’s have to be forced to produce and provide
1:46:08
and not seeing that kind of proper compensation for a result or as a result or a consequence of that
1:46:14
genuine labor and that value and the intellect that you provide that’s not being properly measured or gauged
1:46:20
then yeah you’re not so happy you’re keen with that once again this is this is where the perspectives truly break down and where there’s a
1:46:26
genuine divide is are you the taker or the maker because trust me trust me
1:46:33
you’ll see it’s like almost perfectly correlated it’s you could put it on a graph it’s like holy [ __ ] that’s a
1:46:38
perfect look at that the makers not a big fan of big gum essential planning
1:46:43
and people that have this arbitrary ability to destroy your productivity your wealth and the value of that
1:46:48
uh productivity and your labor and your wealth and those are like i don’t care just give me some cheddar
1:46:54
just give me the chat those people two totally different mindsets
1:46:59
two totally different constructs and even in terms of ethics and morality
1:47:04
right so yes totally which is why you’ll never create a situation or scenario where it’s going to be a one-size-fits-all
1:47:10
that’s going to benefit everyone once again it’s always about picking winners or losers in the economy and like i say
1:47:15
the losers have been winning in the economic sense for a long time now how about given the actual winners
1:47:22
a leg up for once right i think it’d be great but yeah thanks yeah i thought it was a great conversation as well jesus really
1:47:29
appreciate that i can’t be very good in the mind of most
1:47:35
mmters it can’t be a very good system if used properly uh once again i i can’t speak for anyone
1:47:42
else other than myself how it’s i haven’t heard any mmt or
1:47:48
opposed their the basic structure but more how it’s misused right that’s what i was trying to get to right
1:47:54
um uh so what about this one so what about freely entering into debt contracts
1:47:59
should people be liable to go into indentured servitude or debtor’s prisons
1:48:05
not our president not not sure what you mean if you’re freely entering well i mean if
1:48:10
a debt contract yeah if you there’s nothing if you voluntarily choose like if you go to a bank
1:48:16
right or anyone like if i come to me and if you say i’d like to borrow a thousand dollars but i’ll give you
1:48:22
you know eleven hundred dollars back and call it an interest rate and figure out what that would be over a certain time
1:48:27
frame or the or the length of the loan let’s say caroline you’ve chosen to to compensate
1:48:33
me in excess of what i’ve owned you because the fact that you know i’ve given you that money and i could use that money that might have been going
1:48:40
towards things that are more productive or maybe i would have got a higher rate of return then yes for sure there’s as
1:48:46
long as it’s voluntarily once again but i don’t know why you would use something as simple or something like describing
1:48:51
should people be liable to go into indentured servitude or debtor’s prison
1:48:57
i mean what human what human being would you be talking about that would want to enter into indentured servitude
1:49:04
or a debtor’s prison i’m not quite sure what that question means there bosch mandela maybe if you
1:49:10
want to clarify it i’ll check it out a little further down or should the government out ownership
1:49:17
of people government is the ones who claim ownership over people basically right what do you think sin numbers and
1:49:23
what do you think those bonds are what do you think a government bond is right it’s basically government claiming to
1:49:29
own the value of your labor and sell it to other people and investors so government is not the answer government
1:49:37
government is the exact opposite of that government is the ones who claims ownership over people so i’m not sure
1:49:43
where you’re coming up with that one boss mandela uh
1:49:51
and it it can look at world war ii mmt was an implicit implemented in government
1:49:57
dictate all resources go to fight the war and return people get their needs met with limited wants because of the war after the
1:50:05
[Music] war the returned soldiers and women working the assembly line were able to
1:50:11
have kids boomers they bought houston cash and their cars in cash which then
1:50:18
trickled down to boomers being able to
1:50:24
move by the headset 14 15 16 or whatever they said they left it that was actually just a normal it
1:50:30
had nothing to do with monetary policy but you know historically people moving out of their houses at younger ages
1:50:35
i was just you know society was not so infantilized you know in those times and
1:50:41
it’s not just them talk to some you know they’re not a whole lot of them left today but talk to some some folks from the silent generation
1:50:47
the greatest generation or even generation while you won’t find them any older than the silent generation that’s for sure
1:50:53
because they’re pretty much all past this point time but actually moving out of the house and becoming responsible at a young age was
1:50:59
quite normal quite normal historically and not just for one small demographic called boomers
1:51:11
okay do you believe that we should have no collective action at all if no then how do we organize for that
1:51:17
collective action is that not government no collective action like i i cl i do
1:51:22
collective action all the time right if if me and a bunch of my buddies
1:51:28
right decide we want to go for a big rip-on or four-wheelers that’s a collective action or if we want together to create a
1:51:34
charity or crowdfund you know to help someone because their house burnt down they didn’t have health house insurance that’s collective action
1:51:42
i am not against collective action right collective action but it has to be voluntary right
1:51:48
when you’re talking about government and as it pertains to collective action government and warren himself even
1:51:53
acknowledge is a representation of force and violence so that kind of collective action is someone using force i mean
1:52:00
the minute someone puts a gun to your head or proverbially threatens you with force right without actually physically
1:52:06
holding the gun up to your head like the politicians and the ruling class and then forces do today they don’t
1:52:12
necessarily always pull the gun but it’s implied it’s implicit that that threat of force is right there
1:52:18
backing up their collective action right so once again you have to properly define what
1:52:23
are you talking about when you talk about collective action am i guessing no as long as it’s voluntary but once
1:52:29
again the minute force or violence or the threat there up is involved then you know
1:52:36
collective a gang like i i said to warren again coming up here in my driveway to steal my my car that’s a collective action but of
1:52:44
course i’m against that and you should be too right pretty sure you’re against collective action
1:52:50
if that collective is coming after you or your thanks or someone you care about so come on we
1:52:56
got to be a little bit more clear that’s why like i said at the very starting of the conversation and why it was really
1:53:02
important to be the clarity of language is clarity of mind right all these words have actually
1:53:09
described definitions and meanings and once again i stick to them rather than try to
1:53:15
reinterpret or reinvent them
1:53:22
anyways i’m just going to scroll down see if there’s anything else down here
1:53:28
new offspring song let’s go on you got to keep them
1:53:35
liberated nice freedom nice i’m with you g rich
1:53:41
i’m with you anyways uh mmt is post-keynesian
1:53:49
post-kanji it does kind of seem that way but anyways like i say i really enjoy you folks uh joining the stream with me today like
1:53:55
say i’ll be looking forward to our next conversation with warren and i’ll be definitely looking for other people to reach out to actually john hicks i
1:54:02
got to reach out to john we got to have a chat here soon and we’ve been kind of
1:54:07
trying to set something up here for a little while um tim tim mullen i’m probably going to
1:54:13
reach out to tim again he’s been putting out some great material tim mullen the leader of the libertarian party if canada great guy
1:54:19
probably be looking to reach out to him again and yeah anyone else out there like any of you folks in this in this stream in the chat if you ever
1:54:26
want to have a conversation engage in some dialogue debate or discussion with me i’m always always willing to do so so
1:54:32
you know reach out to me on any of my social media pages and we’ll get her done we’ll get her done and like i said i’ll be looking forward
1:54:38
to finding more and more people to have conversations debates and uh discussions with because like i
1:54:43
say at the end of the day that’s that’s what’s going to help us folks is sitting down
1:54:48
and talking and discussing and hammering out these ideas that’s what’s going to be required
1:54:54
that’s what’s going to be needed and necessary if we’re going to escape this current paradigm and i’m sure just like you there’s a lot
1:55:00
of other people out there who maybe not privy to this video or listen to uh conversations like this are in the
1:55:06
same boat in the same position so maybe we you folks and i’ll do my best to try to help out
1:55:11
to help reach out to some of these people and bring them into the conversation because right now if you’re not part of the conversation
1:55:17
as it pertains to those who are disrupting the statu quo or the or the establishment are you just
1:55:23
playing along with the current establishment and you’re not getting much out of that unless like i say you’re part of the
1:55:28
establishment and that still represents a minority
1:55:33
there’s still a majority of us in any country who aren’t part and parcel or
1:55:39
benefactors of big gum in the state so far there’s still a majority of people who
1:55:45
are forced to thrust into paying for that minority who’s benefiting at all of our expense
1:55:50
anyways you folks have a great day we’ll see you in the next live stream libertarian i love liberty
oooooo
