From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (65)

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1887980771178070396

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Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgMPIhBLp1I)

China is taking an increasingly assertive role in world affairs, helping to broker a restoration of relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia, offering a 12-point peace plan for Ukraine, and strengthening its relationships with European and Latin American powers. Last week, China continued its diplomatic outreach by offering to hold talks between Israel and Palestine. “China doesn’t want the United States to be the preeminent power. It wants to live alongside the United States,” says economist Jeffrey Sachs, director of the Center for Sustainable Development at Columbia University and president of the U.N. Sustainable Development Solutions Network. He has also served as adviser to three U.N. secretaries-general and currently serves as a sustainable development solutions advocate under Secretary-General António Guterres. His latest article is headlined “The Need for a New US Foreign Policy.”

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

this is democracy Now

0:02

democracynow.org The War and Peace

0:04

report I’m Amy Goodman in New York

0:05

joined by democracy Now co-host Juan

0:07

Gonzalez in Chicago hi Juan

0:10

hi Amy and welcome to all of our

0:12

listeners and viewers across the country

0:14

and around the world

0:16

China is facing criticism in Europe

0:18

after China’s ambassador to France

0:20

questioned the sovereignty of former

0:22

Soviet States under international law

0:24

during a television interview the Baltic

0:27

countries Lithuania Latvia Estonia

0:30

condemned the remarks and summoned

0:32

Chinese envoys to explain beijing’s

0:35

official position the Chinese foreign

0:37

Ministry walked back the ambassador’s

0:40

comment saying quote China respects all

0:42

countries sovereignty Independence and

0:44

territorial integrity

0:46

The Diplomatic spat comes as China is

0:49

making headlines across the globe though

0:52

maybe not so much in the United States

0:54

for its diplomatic efforts in late

0:57

February China released a 12 point peace

1:00

plan to end the war in Ukraine on March

1:04

10th Iran and Saudi Arabia announced

1:07

they would restore ties as part of an

1:09

agreement brokered by China days later

1:12

in mid-march Chinese president Xi

1:15

Jinping hosted the Brazilian present

1:17

Luis inacio Lula de Silva to talk about

1:20

Ukraine trade and moving away from the

1:24

U.S dollar

1:25

Xi Jinping then met with French

1:27

president Emmanuel McCall in Beijing

1:30

during macomb’s visit she spoke about

1:32

the roles of China and France in world

1:35

affairs

1:40

the world today is undergoing profound

1:43

historic changes as permanent members of

1:45

the U.N security Council and major

1:47

countries with the tradition of

1:48

Independence China and France as

1:50

promoters of the multi-polarization of

1:53

the world and the democratization of

1:54

international relations have the ability

1:57

and responsibility to transcend

1:59

differences

2:00

adhere to the comprehensive strategic

2:02

Cooperative Partnerships between China

2:06

reciprocity development and progress

2:09

practice true multilateralism and

2:12

maintain World Peace stability and

2:14

prosperity while in Beijing the French

2:17

President Emmanuel macron suggested

2:19

France and European nations should not

2:21

become a vassal of the United States

2:24

when it comes to Taiwan

2:27

France

2:28

supports the single China policy and the

2:31

search for peaceful solution to the

2:34

situation for that matter it’s Europe’s

2:36

position it’s a position so it has

2:38

always been compatible with the role of

2:40

an ally but it’s precisely why I’m

2:42

stressing the important of strategic

2:45

autonomy Ally doesn’t mean being a

2:48

vassal

2:50

um it’s not because we do things

2:52

together that we can’t think alone that

2:54

we’re going to follow the people in that

2:56

are the toughest in a country that’s

2:58

allied with us when we look at the facts

3:00

France has lessons to be received from

3:02

no one be either in Ukraine and saw hell

3:06

or in Taiwan

3:08

China’s continued its diplomatic

3:10

Outreach by offering last week to hold

3:13

talks between Israel and Palestine

3:15

to look more at China’s recent

3:17

diplomatic actions we’re joined by

3:19

Jeffrey Sachs director of the center for

3:22

sustainable development at Columbia

3:23

University and president of the UN

3:26

sustainable development Solutions

3:28

Network he’s also served as advisor to

3:31

three U.N secretaries General and

3:34

currently serves as a sustainable

3:35

development Solutions Advocate under

3:38

Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez his

3:40

latest article published is headline the

3:44

need for a new U.S foreign policy

3:46

Professor Sachs thanks so much for being

3:49

with us

3:50

all of the Diplomatic gestures of China

3:55

you know the meeting with macron in

3:58

Beijing with Lula in Beijing brokering

4:01

this deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia

4:04

now offering not only to negotiate

4:08

between Ukraine and Russia but Israel

4:10

and Palestine this hardly gets attention

4:14

in the United States India but around

4:17

the world the headlines are far more

4:20

there are far more headlines about this

4:22

talk about the significance of this and

4:25

you if you see a direct parallel between

4:28

all the Headway that China is making and

4:32

increasing U.S hostility towards China

4:36

thanks Amy very good to be with you and

4:38

indeed this is a a crucial topic and as

4:42

president Xi Jinping said in that

4:45

meeting with macron this is a it is a

4:48

historic Watershed that the world is

4:50

living through right now uh what China

4:54

is after if we view it from China’s

4:57

perspective is what was also said true

5:01

multilateralism and what that means are

5:04

true multi-polarity another term that

5:07

they use and that means they don’t want

5:10

a U.S led World they want a multi-polar

5:14

world and the basis of that is that the

5:19

United States is 4.1 percent of the

5:22

world population China is 17.5 of the

5:27

world population

5:28

China’s economy is comparable to the U.S

5:31

economy and indeed China is the lead

5:34

trade partner for much of the world so

5:37

China is saying we’re there to alongside

5:40

you we want a multi-polar world we don’t

5:45

want a U.S led world and while the

5:49

United States sometimes talks about a

5:52

rule-based order

5:54

the fact of the matter is that the U.S

5:58

Grand strategy if we can use that term

6:01

of the grand strategists of the U.S

6:05

state

6:07

see our grand strategy in the United

6:10

States as being dominance and I often

6:14

refer to a an article that I think is

6:17

very clear uh succinct and revealing by

6:23

a former colleague of mine at Harvard

6:25

University Robert Blackwell and esteemed

6:28

ambassador of the United States who

6:30

wrote in 2015 and I’ll quote from the

6:33

article since its founding the United

6:35

States has consistently pursued a grand

6:38

strategy focused on acquiring and

6:40

maintaining preeminent power over

6:43

various Rivals first on the North

6:46

American continent then in the Western

6:48

Hemisphere and finally globally

6:52

well China doesn’t want the United

6:54

States to be the preeminent power it

6:57

wants to live alongside the United

7:00

States

7:02

Blackwell writing in 2015 uh said

7:06

China’s rise is a threat to U.S

7:08

preeminence and he laid out a series of

7:11

steps that the Biden Administration

7:13

actually is following almost step by

7:16

step

7:17

what Blackwell laid out already back in

7:20

2015 is that the United States should

7:23

create quote new preferential trading

7:27

Arrangements among U.S friends and

7:29

allies to increase their Mutual gains

7:32

through instruments that consciously

7:34

exclude China there should be a

7:37

technology control regime to block

7:40

China’s strategic capabilities a buildup

7:43

of quote power political capacities of

7:46

U.S friends and allies on China’s

7:49

periphery

7:50

and strengthen U.S military forces along

7:53

the Asian rimland despite any Chinese

7:57

opposition this has become the Biden

8:01

foreign policy China knows it China

8:05

really is pushing back but what’s very

8:08

important and interesting to understand

8:11

and we’ve seen it clearly in the

8:14

Dynamics

8:15

involving the Ukraine war most of the

8:18

world

8:19

also does not want the U.S as the

8:24

as the the global preeminent power most

8:28

of the world wants a multi-polar world

8:30

and does is therefore not lined up

8:34

behind the United States sanctions on

8:36

Russia and so forth and this was also

8:38

the message of President Lula visiting

8:41

China saying to president XI ji ping we

8:45

as Brazil

8:46

also want multi-polarity

8:50

true multi-polarity and we want peace

8:55

for example in the Russian Ukraine war

8:58

that is based on not a U.S perception of

9:03

dominance say nato enlargement but

9:06

rather a piece that reflects a

9:08

multi-polar world

9:10

this is real it’s happening all over the

9:14

world and the the fact of the matter is

9:17

the reason why this is a historic

9:19

Watershed is that the underlying

9:22

economics and technological change have

9:25

made it so the the U.S is no longer the

9:29

dominant World economy and the G7 which

9:33

is the U.S Canada Britain France Italy

9:37

Germany and Japan is actually smaller

9:41

than the brics countries in economic

9:44

size which is Brazil Russia India China

9:47

and South Africa so we really are in

9:51

fact in a multi-polar world but in

9:53

ideology we’re we’re in a conflict

9:57

uh Jeffrey Sachs I wanted to ask about

9:59

that uh you mentioned the bricks of the

10:03

the

10:04

uh the the brics bank that is now in

10:08

China uh and the president Lula has

10:11

named Wilma Rousseff as the as the head

10:13

of the Brinks back its importance in

10:16

terms of this multi uh multi-polarity of

10:19

in the world economies the the the

10:22

potential for even the creation of

10:25

alternative uh of major currencies to

10:28

the dollar as a result of the brics

10:30

alliance the impact of that uh on uh

10:34

world affairs

10:36

this is a big deal and in fact the

10:39

United States is withdrawing it doesn’t

10:43

know it necessarily our politicians

10:45

don’t understand this but our

10:48

politicians are withdrawing from the

10:50

world financial and monetary scene and

10:53

opening up the space for a completely

10:56

different kind of Interest international

10:57

finance I’ll give you an example the the

11:00

U.S was the creator of the World Bank

11:03

but now the U.S Congress won’t put new

11:07

money into the World Bank and because of

11:10

that the world bank’s actually a quite

11:12

small institution’s got a big name but

11:15

it’s a quite small institution in the

11:17

financial scheme of things the U.S won’t

11:20

put more money in the Congress says no

11:22

why should we waste our money

11:24

internationally and so forth and we get

11:27

a lot of hubbub about that so China and

11:30

the rest of the brics say okay we’ll

11:33

make our own Development Bank and they

11:35

establish the new development bank or

11:37

sometimes called the brics bank based in

11:39

Shanghai and that’s just one of the

11:43

institutions that is really changing the

11:45

scene there’s the Asia infrastructure

11:48

Investment Bank aiib based in Beijing in

11:53

fact there is as president Lula uh said

11:57

and it’s happening also in the context

11:59

of the Ukraine war a move away from the

12:03

use of the dollar which the United

12:05

States has thought well that’s that’s

12:08

our race in the whole you know that is

12:09

our ultimate hold on things because we

12:13

can use sanctions we can use our

12:16

financial control to keep other

12:19

countries in line but other countries

12:21

are saying not so much will trade in

12:24

Redmond B we’ll trade in Rubles we’ll

12:27

trade in rupees we’ll we’ll trade in our

12:29

own National currencies and they’re

12:31

quickly setting up alternative

12:33

institutions to do this the United

12:36

States doubles down we will confiscate

12:39

your reserves we will if you don’t

12:41

follow and the other countries are

12:43

saying you know

12:45

if you want to go through the UN and get

12:49

really multilateral rules or with you

12:54

but but if you want uh to just impose

12:58

the rules we won’t follow along and so

13:02

we have this very funny expression

13:04

called a rule-based international order

13:06

the United States government uses it

13:09

every day but what does it mean who

13:11

writes the rules and what most of the

13:15

world wants in fact is rules written in

13:19

a multi-polar or multilateral setting

13:22

not rules written by the United States

13:25

and a few friends and allies

13:29

I wanted to ask you uh you’ve been an

13:32

advisor to uh to the United Nations for

13:35

uh quite often the issue of how much

13:39

longer the permanent members of the

13:41

security Council can keep the number to

13:43

five because clearly Brazil and other

13:46

countries of the global South have been

13:48

saying the U.N needs to be reformed and

13:51

countries from Latin America

13:53

specifically Brazil and Africa should

13:56

have representation on the U.N security

13:58

Council permanent members

14:01

yes you know the P5 the permanent five

14:05

which is the United States China Russia

14:08

France and the United Kingdom was the

14:12

World War II Victor group in 1945. they

14:18

wrote Into the rules of the UN

14:20

incidentally that they would be the

14:22

permanent Security Council Members and

14:24

have a veto over any change in the U.N

14:27

Charter so it’s it’s really a group that

14:30

gave itself uh power that the other

14:36

188 countries of the world look on and

14:40

say what is this we need change I I

14:43

would say the country that is most

14:46

amazed and frustrated by this in fact is

14:49

India India is now the most populous

14:52

country in the world the United States

14:55

has

14:57

335 million roughly in the population uh

15:02

Britain France uh roughly 60 million

15:06

India 1.4 billion not on the security

15:11

Council a nuclear power a world

15:14

superpower the president of the G20 this

15:17

year

15:18

really not happy about that uh Brazil

15:23

the large largest economy of South

15:26

America similarly uh not on the security

15:30

Council so this has been an issue for

15:32

more than 20 years the P5 in various

15:36

ways have blocked uh particular

15:39

countries but added up the P5 have said

15:42

you know what this is our club we want

15:45

to stay as the permanent five but I

15:47

think as we really face the reality of a

15:51

it’s not just a post-us

15:53

dominated world but actually a

15:56

post-western dominated world because it

15:59

was the U.S as the dominant power among

16:02

the so-called West which means the U.S

16:04

Britain European Union uh and honorary

16:08

Western membership Japan let’s say but

16:11

we’re post-western as well as post-us

16:15

indominance and these International

16:17

institutions will need to change or they

16:21

won’t function in the 21st century and

16:24

if they don’t function it’s actually a

16:26

disaster for us if they didn’t exist

16:29

we’d have to make them because we need

16:31

them to function so we also need to

16:35

renovate them

16:36

I wanted to talk about China negotiating

16:40

these various agreements

16:43

um let’s turn to Brazil’s president Luis

16:46

enacio Lula de Silva speaking before his

16:48

meeting with Chinese president Xi

16:50

Jinping

16:54

what does Putin want Putin can’t keep

16:57

Ukraine’s territory maybe we don’t even

16:59

discuss Crimea but he will have to

17:01

rethink what he has invaded also

17:04

zielinski can’t have everything he wants

17:06

to demand NATO will not be able to set

17:08

itself up at the border so this is

17:10

something we have to put on a table

17:13

foreign

17:17

I think this war has dragged on for too

17:20

long Brazil has already criticized what

17:22

it had to criticize Brazil defends each

17:25

nation’s territorial Integrity so we

17:28

disagree with Russia’s invasion of

17:29

Ukraine because it looks like

17:32

um Ukraine is on the verge of a major

17:35

counter-offensive against Russia and in

17:38

order to do this needs massive support

17:40

from Western countries meaning military

17:43

weapons can you talk about

17:46

what China’s role is here the peace plan

17:50

it has put forward but also these other

17:54

deals that China is helping to negotiate

17:57

like the success the successful

18:00

rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and

18:02

Iran and then with their uh what they’re

18:05

suggesting about Israel and Palestine

18:09

president Lula uttered in a few words

18:12

the core of this issue that our most of

18:16

our media dare not explain to the

18:19

American people and that is the

18:21

expansion of NATO

18:23

this is a war fundamentally about the

18:27

U.S attempt to expand a U.S military

18:30

Alliance to Ukraine and to Georgia

18:35

Georgia’s a country in the caucuses also

18:37

on the Black Sea the U.S strategy going

18:41

back decades has been to surround Russia

18:44

in the Black Sea with Ukraine Romania

18:48

Bulgaria turkey and Georgia all NATO

18:52

members surrounding Russia and its naval

18:56

fleet in the Black Sea with a naval

18:59

fleet that has been the Black Sea naval

19:01

fleet of Russia since 1783. Russia has

19:05

said this is our red line and it has

19:08

said that for decades and it said this

19:11

clearly in 2007 before George W Bush Jr

19:15

had the I’ll call it the harebrained

19:18

idea to announce in 2008 and force NATO

19:22

to announce that Ukraine will be a

19:26

member of NATO

19:28

and this is what president Lula was

19:30

saying and what president what president

19:33

XI ji ping of China has been saying we

19:36

can’t have a war that is essentially a

19:39

proxy war between Russia and the United

19:42

States over the expansion of

19:45

the U.S military Alliance right up to a

19:50

1200 kilometer and more border with

19:54

Russia which Russia views and I would

19:57

say understandably views as a

19:59

fundamental national security threat to

20:01

Russia keep some space keep some

20:04

distance that’s president Lula’s meaning

20:07

that’s what China means when it says in

20:10

its peace plan we want a peace plan that

20:13

respects the security interests of all

20:17

parties what that is is code word for

20:20

saying make peace end the war but don’t

20:23

expand NATO right up to the border the

20:27

American people have not heard an

20:29

explanation of this all along it’s

20:32

shocking to me because as a close

20:34

Observer of this for 30 years this has

20:36

been the Casas bellai and yet our

20:39

newspapers won’t even report the

20:42

background to this but this is why China

20:45

South Africa India Brazil are saying we

20:51

want peace but we don’t want NATO

20:53

expansion as the meaning of so-called

20:57

peace we want the big superpowers to

21:00

give each other some space and some

21:02

distance so that the world isn’t on a

21:05

knife edge that’s exactly what president

21:07

Lula was saying and it’s exactly what

21:10

the meaning of the Chinese peace

21:12

initiative is is to say yes absolutely

21:16

make peace protect Ukraine’s sovereignty

21:19

and its security but no to Nato

21:21

expansion but the Biden Administration

21:23

won’t even discuss this issue that has

21:26

been the major failing and the reason

21:30

why we have not been able to get to the

21:33

negotiating table in my opinion even

21:35

when zielinski said in March 2022 maybe

21:39

not NATO maybe something else Russia and

21:42

Ukraine were close to an agreement and

21:45

the United States into being with

21:46

Ukraine and said we don’t think that’s a

21:49

good agreement because the U.S neocon

21:52

so-called have been pushing for NATO

21:54

enlargement as the core of this issue

21:57

but this goes back to the more General

21:59

point for us which is that what is at

22:03

stake in Ukraine and over Taiwan and

22:07

many other issues from the point of view

22:09

of China or Russia or other countries

22:14

including Brazil now Saudi Arabia Iran

22:17

and others is whether the U.S does what

22:21

it wants to do or whether the U.S

22:24

respects some limits based on what other

22:27

countries say well this is what we think

22:30

so that we need true multi-polarity not

22:34

U.S dominance alone rules written by all

22:38

of us not rules written just by the

22:40

United States

22:42

and Jeff sacks we only have a few uh

22:45

about a minute left but I was wondering

22:47

if you could comment on the the

22:49

parallels between this expansion of NATO

22:53

further and further uh East in Europe uh

22:57

this year marks the 200th anniversary of

23:00

the Monroe Doctrine of President Monroe

23:03

declaring to all the European powers

23:05

that the Western Hemisphere was off

23:07

limits to them coming to attempting to

23:10

move their forces and their militaries

23:12

into Latin America and for these past

23:16

200 years Latin America has essentially

23:18

been uh the major sphere of influence of

23:21

the United States uh and yet here we are

23:24

saying that Russia has no right to

23:27

declare that it’s immediate uh the

23:29

countries in on immediately its borders

23:31

uh cannot uh cannot uh welcome in uh

23:36

NATO troops

23:37

well yes a little empathy would go a

23:40

long way would have spared us actually a

23:43

lot of Wars but for Americans it would

23:45

be useful to think suppose Mexico made a

23:49

military alliance with China with the

23:51

United States say well that’s Mexico’s

23:54

right what are we going to do about it

23:55

or might there be actually an invasion

23:58

in short order or something like that I

24:01

would strongly advise to China and

24:03

Mexico don’t try it at home don’t

24:06

experiment with this but the United

24:08

States government refuses that empathy

24:11

because in other words refuses to put

24:13

itself in the position of the other side

24:15

that’s the fundamental arrogance of

24:18

thinking that you determine the rules of

24:20

the world

24:21

the problem with arrogance is not only

24:24

the comeuppance from it but you can’t

24:27

you stumble into terrible crises that

24:30

you don’t even understand because the

24:32

United States has not been allowed the

24:34

public has not been allowed to even

24:36

think from the perspective of the other

24:38

side so the analogy is is actually a

24:42

very very clear analogy it is what China

24:46

and Russia and others say all the time

24:49

is why have those double standards why

24:53

don’t we actually deal with each other

24:55

with mutual respect not with the rules

24:58

that you write

24:59

we want to thank you Jeffrey Sachs for

25:01

joining us director of the center for

25:03

sustainable development at Columbia

25:05

University president of the UN

25:06

sustainable development Solutions

25:08

Network we’ll link to your new article

25:10

the need for a new U.S foreign policy uh

25:14

Professor Sachs was speaking to us from

25:15

Cordova Spain

oooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

oooooo

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