From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (61)

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Andreas Motzfeldt Kravik@akravik79

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Jackson Hinkle @jacksonhinklle

Aipamena

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(32:37 m)

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Sal the Agorist@SallyMayweather

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COMBATE |@upholdreality

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Gaza Notifications@gazanotice

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Chay Bowes@BowesChay

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M̶I̶T̶ Coalition Against Apartheid@m1t_caa

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api. 24

Israel comes to a standstill when the siren sounds on Holocaust Remembrance Day. A moment of silence — renewing our eternal promise to keep the memory of Holocaust victims and survivors alive.

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ADAM@AdameMedia

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Sarah Wilkinson@swilkinsonbc

Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

Jackson Hinkle @jacksonhinklle

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Norman Finkelstein Destroys the Israeli Narrative

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MY1aXOBVnY)

Norman Finkelstein does in thirty minutes what most journalists and world leaders have failed to do for decades: he calls it what it is — genocide. He exposes what Israel is doing in Gaza, why it’s doing it, and how the media politely calls it “complex.” There’s no dancing around. Just facts. Brutal, documented, undeniable.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

let me ask you a simple question okay if you’re at war with Gaza why are you

0:06

shooting children in the skull and in the chest i want to warn you upfront this is not just another debate what

0:12

you’re about to watch is a clash between moral strength and PR talk between truth and propaganda this is the conversation

0:18

between Norman Finkelstein and Flur Hassan on Piers Morgan’s show and trust me it’s worth watching not because it’s

0:23

polite but because it isn’t on one side Norman Finkelstein son of Holocaust

0:28

survivors scholar author of Gaza’s gravediggers and for decades a strong voice against injustice he speaks with

0:35

facts with history with pain in his voice but clarity in his words a man who despite everything refuses to stay

0:41

silent when innocent people are being crushed on the other side Flur Hassan the polished marketing face of the

0:46

Israeli state her job to frame the destruction of Gaza as an opportunity to sell the Israeli blockade as if it’s

0:52

some kind of humanitarian project a perfect spokesperson for a regime that dresses up war as self-defense and

0:58

apartheid as democracy and in the middle Piers Morgan the man who calls himself a neutral moderator but mostly just does

1:05

what his sponsors want he praises himself for giving pro Palestinians a voice but avoids any real uncomfortable

1:11

conversations unless they give him more clicks his neutrality is for sale and you can feel it why is this video

1:17

important because in this episode Norman Finkelestein does something almost no one on TV dares to do he calls the

1:23

genocide in Gaza by its name because he refuses to be intimidated not by mouthpieces like Hassan not by Morgan’s

1:30

gaslighting he holds his ground even when they try to label him as mentally unstable which already says a lot about

1:35

the Israeli PR machine if you don’t fit their worldview you must be crazy in short this video isn’t for people who

1:42

just want to hear both sides it’s for people who are tired of lies of hypocrisy of the normalization of brutal

1:48

oppression did you find this powerful show it like the video share it comment and subscribe if you want more truth in

1:54

your feed instead of another polished script from a PR officer in wartime israel’s war on Hezbollah is over for

2:01

now the ceasefire ends almost 14 months of fighting and two months of a direct and deadly assault by Israel inside

2:08

Lebanon president Biden and the US administration pushed to get the deal done before Thanksgiving and no doubt

2:13

this is the first good news from the Middle East in a long time but 170 mi to the south there’s very little to feel

2:19

grateful about israel’s war on Hamas continues unabated and the IDF’s conduct is facing intensifying scrutiny prime

2:26

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and sacked Defense Minister Yo Galant face ICC arrest warrants for war crimes reports

2:33

by the New York Times and others accused the IDF of habitually using captured gardens as human shields president Trump

2:40

has assembled a strididently pro-Israel cabinet with little patience for his critics many supporters of the

2:46

Palestinian cause fear that life beyond the war holds precious little calls for optimism and that the very concept of a

2:52

two-state solution may now be dead to debate this I’m joined in the studio by two of the strongest voices on this

2:58

conflict both with very opposite positions flur Hassan is the Israel special envoy for trade and innovation

3:04

as well as the former deputy mayor in Jerusalem norma Finkelstein is a political scientist and pro Palestine

3:10

activist author of the new book Gaza’s Gravediggers: An Inquiry into Corruption

3:15

in High Places well welcome to both of you i never met either of you i’ve interviewed you both uh several times

3:20

but it’s great to meet you both in person and I appreciate you prepared to do this a lot of people in this uh in

3:27

this war period have not wanted to debate with people especially on the other side so I appreciate that uh

3:33

Norman you got a new book out um and I’ll come to that in more detail as we go on but

3:40

just talking about where we are right now we’ve got this ceasefire between

3:46

Israel and Hezbollah there is no ceasefire yet with Hamas but where do

3:52

you think this this war now is well with all due respect I have to disagree with

3:57

your characterization of where it began and where it now is in my opinion speaking

4:05

on the basis of what Israeli leaders leaders themselves said after October

4:10

7th this isn’t a war against Hamas this is a war against Gaza in fact it’s not a

4:18

war at all it’s a genocide and in the course of that genocide we could say as of now the best

4:25

estimates are there are about 42 million tons of rubble in Gaza it would take

4:31

about 10 to 15 years to clear out the rubble and even if the rubble were

4:37

cleared out there are no prospects for rebuilding Gaza because Israel will claim that any cement that enters Gaza

4:44

will be used to build tunnels and so they’ll bar cement as they did after operation protect cast lead in

4:53

20089 so where we are now I would say Gaza is no more uh Gaza has been

5:00

pulverized it’s been obliterated and that was the Israeli goal from October

5:06

7th as you recall for sure the statements that immediately came out after October 7th spoke about AMLC spoke

5:15

about there not being any civilians in Gaza the intention was to once and for

5:20

all liquidate solve the Gaza question and in my opinion they have succeeded in

5:28

that regard and um the prospects for the people of Gaza my guess is and it’s pure

5:35

speculation here by hook or by crook they’re going to find a way to leave

5:40

because there is nothing that remains about the estimate is about 60 to 70% of

5:45

Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed the hospitals were targeted the universities were targeted obviously

5:53

homes were targeted uh so there is nothing left and that was the intention

5:59

the Gaza Hamas aspect was pretty much a sideshow so for example if you look at

6:06

the statistics from the Israeli government less than one less than one

6:11

Israeli soldier has been killed each day in Gaza i have always supported Israel’s

6:18

right to defend itself in fact I’ve always believed it had a duty to it’s to me always been a case of what is a

6:24

proportionate response flo let me bring you in i personally feel it has gone way too far gaz has just been flattened i

6:32

mean it is I know people who’ve been there who just say it is an utter devastation i actually think they have

6:38

an incredible opportunity because in 2005 when Israel left Gaza in order to give the Palestinian leadership a chance

6:44

to create maybe the pilot of a Palestinian state in beautiful Mediterranean coastline they could have

6:50

turned it into Dubai or Singapore but instead the when Kamas got in in a brutal coup in 2006 what happened is

6:57

they turned Gaza essentially into a military base they filled it out with tunnels 800 km of tunnels they built

7:04

under hospitals they built those tunnels they built booby traps they didn’t build

7:09

They didn’t build tunnels under hospitals they built hospitals on top of tunnels there’s like 30 hospitals in

7:15

Gaza in in the whole of Israel there’s like that’s 20 years ago all right well no no they’ve spent 20 years understand

7:22

turning the whole of Gaza into one booby trap for this Armageddon moment but

7:27

that’s not an answer to my question the answer is what happens now wait what happens what happens to 1.9 million

7:32

people who’ve been sent to refugee camps that have now been attacked as well what happens to these people a lot of their

7:39

homes are just gone to be clear the refugee camps there are safe spaces where kamas also infiltrate and that’s

7:46

they put their own people they use them as human shields as we know as has been reported and they put their people in

7:51

harm where is what happens now you ask me where the light is yeah on that one

7:56

point you just said though where are they supposed to go to be safe well right now where did Gardens go mr

8:02

finkelstein said that we’re engaged in a genocide if we were why are we asking people to get out of Let me ask you

8:09

again where can they go why are we giving warning why are we damaging our own our own element of why are we doing

8:15

that my question was where should the guards and civilians go to be safe the guards and civilians today have an

8:21

opportunity after kamas subjugated them to rebuild their society that wasn’t my

8:27

question my question is where can they currently go to be safe to the safe spaces that Israel has decided where

8:33

Israel is not attacking well it depends where at one point they move them from Rafa they said it couldn’t be done you

8:39

can’t move a million people we did with absolutely almost zero casualties and so it can be done you can move a population

8:45

out of the way kamas is actively putting them in the way that is what nobody talks about war crime but the other Yes

8:53

but the other argument is that Israel is indiscriminately attacking everywhere and then saying you know what Hamas are

9:00

there and because no hang on because no journalists are allowed in to verify this because the IDF won’t let them

9:07

there is no independent way of verifying whether any of that is true if we were indiscriminately attacking why are we

9:13

asking people to get out of the way why are we creating safe zones all all of what he’s saying you have to understand

9:20

where normal Finkelstein is in his head okay first of all he doesn’t believe in the existence of the state of Israel so

9:25

it’s very difficult arguing somebody that doesn’t believe you should exist at all secondly um as a Jew he’s got what I

9:32

as a Jew as a Jew let me finish my point and then you can interact as a Jew talk

9:38

about your head as a Jew um you know Norman Finkelstein has got what I

9:44

describe as the abused wife syndrome the abused wife that stays with her abusive

9:49

husband has to justify her staying in three ways one is saying it’s not all that bad which is what he says about

9:55

anti-semitism the second is saying well they didn’t mean it anti-semitism they didn’t really mean to target Jews and

10:02

the third way which is he’s actively engaging is to saying it’s our fault it’s my fault the wife that says I would

10:08

have come to Norman’s provoked him before I come this is the abusers

10:14

abusive made your point and he will respond that he is in the Israeli Jew is the liberated Jew that has left the

10:20

abusive husband before I go to Norman to respond to that which I’m sure he’ll want to the point that you were going to

10:26

answer and I made you answer a different one because you raised it but what happens at the end of this war given

10:32

what I think should happen no what is going to happen well I believe what’s the plan what have Israel got as plans

10:38

well I believe that with Trump coming into power in the United States and with a Saudi deal on the table which has been

10:44

on the table and this is one of the reasons that they started the massacre on October 7th to begin with they understood where the that the Iranians

10:51

understood where this was all going they deployed kamas and they said this is the moment now so I believe that there’s a

10:58

real opportunity for the gardens for the good gazins who want a decent life for themselves and not living a life of

11:04

terrorism to rebuild how under the maybe civil administration of their own where

11:11

do they go live when all their homes have been destroyed with their own local leaders with Saudis with Emiratis who

11:17

know how to build quickly who have the resources to build quickly if we really have a consortium of countries like the

11:24

Abraham Accord countries together and rebuild there is an opportunity still under Israel control i don’t think

11:31

Israel should be controlling them so Israel would back off completely we have to we have to retain security control so

11:36

we don’t have another so you would have control okay but not administrative control but eventually eventually we

11:41

don’t have to have you know eventually it’d be really nice actually if Israel had no control yes why did we leave in 2011 let me let me bring Why did we

11:48

leave i’ll come back to you first i’ll come back to you norman your chance to respond okay number one totally trivial

11:55

point if I need psychoanalysis I wouldn’t go to a representative of a lunatic state i

12:02

would go to a rational person number two Israel never left Gaza that’s not my

12:09

opinion in 2005 Israel relocated its troops from inside Gaza to the periphery

12:18

of Gaza what goes into Gaza what goes out of Gaza who goes into Gaza who goes

12:25

out of Gaza the airspace the water everything was controlled by Israel the

12:31

guardian of the fourth Geneva Convention is the International Committee of the Red Cross the opinion of the Red Cross

12:38

from 2006 to the present is that Israel ret Israel remains the occupying power

12:45

in Gaza that’s the opinion of the United Nations it’s the opinion of all human rights organizations i don’t disagree

12:50

with you about any of that but let me ask you this nor great question great question hang on let me hang on i

12:56

actually don’t disagree with your assessment right i do think Israel has exercised a control over the people of

13:02

Gaza ever since they said they seeded control to a government but let me ask you one question before you finish your

13:08

answer which is this hamas there can be no doubt that Hamas

13:13

was given billions of dollars a lot of it encouraged by Netanyahu given billions of dollars which they did in

13:20

fact squander which they did squander to the detriment of their people which they did by building all these tunnels right

13:26

and which they did in the end when they when they invaded Israel October the 7th they knew absolutely what would happen

13:34

and therefore in that moment they sentenced to death tens of thousands of their own people would you quibble with

13:39

that and don’t forget the leaders are billionaires okay their leaders are billionaire i will actually I will

13:44

actually with all due respect because I respect the facts i’ll quibble with

13:49

everything you said number one the money that went into Gaza mostly from European

13:55

countries and other international organizations they monitored where the money went very carefully they weren’t

14:01

about to uh endow uh Hamas there’s no evidence how did Hamas build the tunnels

14:08

well I’ll tell you how they They don’t have one penny of account i’ll come to you not one penny i’ll come to you to

14:14

respond allow me allow me i will challenge both of you but don’t shout over each other not one penny of

14:20

accountability um he’s living in an alternative european governments and

14:25

many of the international economic organizations the International Monetary Fund the World Bank UNED UN Conference

14:34

for Trade and Development they all put out on a probably a quarterly basis very

14:39

precise reports on Gaza none and I’ve read all the reports over 10 or 20 years

14:46

now 17 years uh none of the reports have claimed that the catastrophe the

14:53

economic catastrophe in Gaza has been caused by Hamas none now if you claim

14:59

that you have more expertise in the subject than the IMF and the World Bank

15:05

and UNED well you can believe that i personally don’t believe that the claim

15:11

of all of these international respected organizations is the main source the

15:17

root cause of the catastrophe in Gaza prior to October 7th the root cause has

15:23

been the medieval blockade that Israel imposed on it and which Human Rights

15:29

Watch just in November 2024 a month ago Human Rights Watch described as quote a

15:36

crime against humanity but how did how did the problem how did how did Hamas

15:43

afford to build all these tunnels you know uh peers I never quarrel with facts

15:49

i’ll give you an honest answer how does they afford it i’m going to tell you there’s no tunnels in the country well I think the the

15:56

uh amount of tunnels has been vastly exaggerated but I’ll admit I can’t prove that i’ve talked to civil engineers in

16:04

Gaza about the possibility Israel claims 450 miles of tunnels i find that totally

16:10

incredible there are billions of dollars worth of tunnels you accept I I don’t know i’m not a civil engineer he wants

16:16

us to remain in power that’s what I do here i’m perfectly willing to discuss

16:21

what I don’t know i’m not a civil engineer i can’t answer what I can say

16:27

is the following let’s get back to the question of what’s happened in Gaza you

16:32

said Israel is in a war with Hamas yes so has the other guest in this room my

16:37

name is Flur what is your name flur flur so has Flur let me ask you a simple

16:44

question okay if you’re at war with Gaza why are you shooting children in the

16:50

skull and in the chest the New York Times published an article on that came under a lot of flack because they

16:57

published that article they said “We can’t refute the evidence we have the X-rays in front of us they’re shooting

17:03

children in the head in the skull and in the chest if you’re engaged in the war in

17:09

Gaza why are you killing journalists why are you killing medics why are you

17:14

killing UN workers if you’re engaged in the war with Hamas why is it that Human

17:20

Rights Watch just this past week put out a report they tell people where to flee

17:26

they say “Go to the safe zones.” Human Rights Watch says when we uh when the

17:31

people are directed they’re being shot at at the roads but aren’t you seriously saying no but no but hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on when they get to

17:37

When they get to the safe areas I’ve already made that point israel drops 2,000 lb bombs on that very point does

17:43

that sound like a war or does that sound like a genocide does it sound like Well it’s it’s interesting okay let let’s get

17:49

into that because it’s an interesting part of the debate it’s horrendous that UN workers journalists children women

17:56

have all been killed it’s horrendous targeted well okay they quibble with the word targeted they say it’s collateral

18:03

damage as they’ve gone after terrorists when you shoot a child Here’s my question Norman when you shoot Norman here’s my question

18:09

that’s not collateral damage norman can you tell me any war where innocent

18:14

people have not been killed in large numbers i’m not talking about innocent people this this is not he’s talking

18:20

about Hamas terrorism this is not collateral damage this is not even

18:25

indiscriminate killing this is very discriminate killing it’s

18:31

discriminately indiscriminate bombing of the entire

18:37

infra if they wanted genocide though why don’t they just kill everyone in Gaza there’s a very simple answer let me answer i’m going to I’m going to come to

18:43

There’s a very simple answer to that question Piers because even take I know

18:48

you’re not allowed to say it but since I know the topic very well take the case of the Nazis the Nazis needed the cover

18:55

of a war in order to carry out the final solution now Hitler had plans earlier on

19:01

but it required a certain amount of cover propaganda and all sorts of other

19:09

uh devices in order to carry it out gaza is in the news it’s very hard to do

19:16

believe Israel had a right to defend itself after October the 7th actually if you want to hear my full answer I’m not

19:22

giving you a yes it’s a short answer my answer he doesn’t have short answers that’s correct i don’t have short

19:28

answers i’ve said it to you before in my opinion Israel here it’s not my opinion

19:35

i’ll quote Guora Island Israel the former head of Israel’s National Security Council israel create I’m

19:42

quoting him now in 2004 he said Gaza is quote a huge concentration camp Israel

19:49

created a huge concentration camp in Gaza Israel imposed a medieval blockade

19:55

on Gaza which has been characterized as a crime against humanity israel

20:01

periodically went into Gaza on its high-tech killing sprees what it called

20:06

operations i would say Israel created I think I’m quoting now uh the British

20:13

economist called Gaza a toxic dump israel created a situation where you

20:20

have children i understand how old are your ch children from 31 down to 12 13 okay fine imagine if you’re a child

20:29

you’re a father your child was born into what Guierara Island called a

20:36

concentration camp your child was left to languish in that concentration camp

20:44

it sounds like you’re bu you’re working up a justification October completely justifying October 7th maybe if you let

20:50

him somebody get a word in I could explain where he’s coming from allow me to finish i do need to bring her in though i I need your psychologist this

20:56

is not Yes you do you need a psychologist she does need to respond i love lunatics this is one in one

21:02

interview well she probably thinks you’re a lunatic too fine fine um and by

21:09

October 7th as you recall Gaza had disappeared from the international stage

21:16

all the talk was about the Abraham Accords whether Saudi Arabia so your

21:22

child was destined to be born into languishing and die in a concentration

21:29

camp israel created those conditions so was it justified by my view

21:35

is forfeited its right of self-defense based on its criminal abuse

21:44

of the population of Gaza for 20 years okay but so just to extrapolate that it

21:50

was just I’m very clear there’s no need for extrapolation Israel forfeited its

21:55

right I was about to ask does that does that mean then that what happened was justified I will stick by my

22:03

formulation Israel forfeited its right to self-defense by having Hamas

22:08

justified by your by your logic was Hamas justified if I if your children

22:18

were in that situation i suspect as a final resort

22:25

they might very well have done what happened okay by his logic there’s a

22:31

hundred children in tunnels and dungeons in Gaza right now taken innocent people

22:37

not soldiers taken hostage if it was your child then it justifies everything by his very logic shooting children by

22:44

his very logic somebody takes away your children let her respond we’ve heard enough let

22:51

her respond we’ve heard enough i gave you I gave you a long first of all let’s just come back from Gothic well hang on

22:57

your response to what Nor because Norman’s gone as far as I’ve heard him do in effectively saying it was a

23:02

justified attack has no right to self-defense but of course he’s going to

23:07

say that because he doesn’t believe Israel has a right to exist he doesn’t believe Israel has ever document where I

23:13

said that could you let me answer my question show me where I said that that Israel has he ever said that if Has he

23:22

ever said that my question is this well you just said he said that if Israel doesn’t have the right to self then it

23:28

doesn’t have the right to exist flare flare just as you self-defense it

23:35

doesn’t have a right to exist he believes the whole of the country is a

23:40

settlement he doesn’t you’ve said it you’ve implied it and we’ve had enough if you let me

23:46

answer the question yes I agree i’m going to answer the question where did I say Israel had no right to exist show me

23:54

can I answer i’ve written 10 books i think you should answer it because you have said it as a fact if you believe that Israel doesn’t have the right of

24:00

self-defense you are basically saying that Israel doesn’t have the right to exist no I never do it’s not connected

24:06

so then we can exist but we can’t defend ourselves after people attack us and let’s just go back you can’t defend

24:13

yourself against concentration camp he keeps interrupting me he just had a

24:18

10-minute monologue i agree i agree a 10-minute monologue give me a fiveminute monologue okay okay since the beginning

24:25

of the establishment of the state of Israel which he believes that we were the terrible people displacing people

24:31

okay we were also displaced jews were also displaced from Arab lands and that’s just what happened postwar

24:37

postcolonization of the world so let’s look in 47 there was a two-state

24:42

solution proposed the Jews said yes the Arabs said no it’s not that they wanted a state it’s that they didn’t want the

24:48

Jews to have a state so we declared a state in 48 what happens all the countries around us come to attack to

24:55

create a genocide it was a miracle that Israel wasn’t eliminated in that moment move forward 67 those territories in

25:02

which we were attacks what there was no Palestine there was no Palestinians it was Jordan and Egypt and Syria and

25:09

Lebanon that attacked Israel if they would never have attacked Israel 67 that land would have remained Arab land okay

25:15

fast forward 73 another war that we didn’t start now do we not have the right to defend ourselves from

25:21

destruction we didn’t start 67 we didn’t start 73 we didn’t start then we go and

25:28

we say we crumble on to hope we we hold on to hope we say “Let’s do the Oslo Accords.” We offered Arafat and Clinton

25:35

will say this himself everything they said they wanted 97% of the West Bank

25:41

half of Jerusalem the lot and they said no and they started a bloody in the

25:46

streets of my city that killed many many innocent civilians Jewish and Arab alike

25:52

then we thought let’s try something else in 2005 let’s do unilateral withdrawal that’s what Chaon did he said maybe if

25:59

we actually just leave they’ll have an opportunity there was never a blockade the blockade started when kamas went

26:05

into power and they were bringing in contrabanding missiles in which to attack Israel that’s when a country has

26:12

to say we need to defend ourselves now if there’s a blockade don’t they have a

26:18

border with Egypt why don’t you say a word about Egypt there’s no blockade when it’s three walls where’s the fourth

26:24

wall it’s Egypt what happened to Egypt didn’t they have tunnels going in and out of Egypt in fact it was Egypt that

26:30

had a much harsher border than Israel we had 20,000 people coming in to work let me ask you a question so what

26:36

concentration club has tell me something what concentration club has a country club what concentration club has a

26:43

country club askor concentration yes gora Island

26:48

thinks we should keep Northern Gaza that’s what he thinks and I quoting him why did Kiora Island call a huge

26:54

concentration camp why 2,000 i don’t speak for him you could just do 2004 yes

27:00

we left in 2005 right he called God’s 2004 2004 a huge concentration let me

27:07

ask you let me ask so we left in 2004 you never left we left in your imagination you left your imagination

27:15

you left according to the International Committee of the Red Cross you didn’t leave we know we know how neutral they

27:22

are according to Human Rights Watch you didn’t leave we know how neutral they are amnesty International

27:28

everybody’s an anti-semite no but a lot of people let me ask a question let me

27:33

ask a question i want to just answer all anti let me just get a time out no I

27:38

want to ask you a question which is this there can be no doubt that even if Israel says we unilaterally pulled out

27:45

in 2005 and withdrew troops and so on to the border whatever there’s no doubt

27:50

that Israel continued to exercise a form of occupying control and we saw that

27:57

very clearly after October the 7th when Israel was at the flick of a switch able to turn off the supplies of water of

28:03

electricity why didn’t they develop their own water but here’s my question for you why didn’t they use Here’s my question their own here’s my question

28:09

for you here’s my question for you given that Israel had that power you can

28:14

dispute the word occupation but they had a control over the people of Gaza the

28:20

Palestinians which I don’t think they should have had what gives Israel the right to exercise that kind of power

28:27

over the people of Gaza it wasn’t over the people of Gaza it was a terrorist entity that has in its foundational

28:34

charter the destruction of the whole of and you gave them control at least give

28:39

them control we gave the Palestinian authority control are you saying all gardens of Hamas no we gave the

28:46

Palestinian Authority control and then the year later they had elections pushed by the American government at the time

28:52

and then Hamas won that election and then took over in a brutal coup which by the way you know how many of the PA they

28:59

killed this is their own going on listen I think that’s also Israel’s fault i think Hamas everything is Israel’s fault

29:06

you are basically practicing the bigotry of low expectation for the Gazins and

29:11

the Palestinians he’s saying that the Palestinian leadership has no responsibility hamas is a brutal zero

29:18

responsibility hamas is a brutal terrorist organization okay it is so that explains why Israel prohibited

29:27

chocolate from entering Gaza that’s why Israel prohibited baby chicks i don’t

29:33

agree with any Gaza i agree with you that’s why he’s twisting the reality

29:38

actually that is the reality israel was doing that israel produced such a long restricting building material that they

29:45

knew they were using it wasn’t all they were restricting let me ask you listen I want to bring things forward paris we finally agree on more than we disagree i

29:53

listen you’d be surprised honestly I have a lot of sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians and I have sympathy for

29:58

Israel to what happened on I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians because they’ve always had terrible leadership fine let me I you know what I think

30:05

palestinians should be entitled to the exact same human rights as you they should be entitled to their own

30:10

self-determination but why didn’t they do that why didn’t they take one of the pieces i agree with

30:17

why did they not

30:26

self-de talking from the whole world has taken all responsibility away from the leaders my view is a bigger view which

30:32

is that right behind all this is Iran that Iran’s tentacles have been fueling Hamas says BA and the Houthis and that

30:39

that is the core problem in the region in Norman Finkelstein world Islamism is not a problem political Islamist let

30:45

Norman respond now in his world that’s not a problem it’s a very simple answer

30:50

there are there are called four or five final status questions bearing on resolving the conflict

30:57

Jerusalem settlements borders refugees refugees those are the main issues under

31:03

international law the settlements are illegal each and everyone I noticed

31:09

yesterday when I was watching your latest program you referred to the building of new settlements as being

31:15

appalling no under international law confirmed in the July decision of the

31:21

International Court of Justice all the settlements are illegal under the plans

31:27

that uh eh Barack offered in 2000 in the year 2000 and then later under EU Omar

31:36

Israel wanted to keep 80% of the settlements in place it wanted to keep

31:43

all the settlement blocks in place the question of borders israel’s position

31:50

has been excuse me it will not return to the June 1967 border that’s in breach of

31:57

international law israel says it will not return leave East Jerusalem east

32:04

Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory it belongs to the Palestinian

32:11

people very simple very simple i hope everybody will listen who are we occupying Jerusalem from it was

32:17

Jordanian before 67 am I interested no you’re talking about law i’m wrong in

32:23

law but you cannot dispute on that hang on hang on hang on justice there’s never been

32:29

Palestinian do you dispute okay on one point everything we can argue about the

32:34

Hang on we can argue about the history of the settlements okay what I don’t think anyone can argue Israeli or

32:41

Palestinian since the start of this war on October the 7th 8th is that the

32:47

aggressive expansion of settlements on the West Bank by Israelis since the

32:52

start of this war in my estimation has not just been outrageous i think it actually constitutes an indisputable war

32:59

crime what are they doing do you know have you ever read Oslo i I’m very aware of interviewed so let me tell you what

33:06

Oslo Why you assuming things I ask question you I’m asking you a question because when you talk about it you don’t

33:11

understand what was actually sorry I think he understood I’ve literally specifically asked you about the answer

33:18

the aggressive expansion of settlements since October the 7th it is indefensible

33:24

it is illegal and in my estimation it is a war crime now we know that’s happening

33:29

because we can see it we can see there’s no occupation what we can’t see in Gaza is anything because the journalists

33:34

aren’t allowed in there’s no Yes and if the journalists were allowed in and they got killed you’d say Israel’s killing

33:40

journalists so you can’t win can you what do you think of the aggressive expansion of settlement on the West Bank

33:46

since the war started i reject the premise of that and I’ll tell you why let me ask you a question do you support

33:51

the I’ve had Jewish guests who have condemned there’s no occupation there’s no occupation she said there’s no Do you

33:57

think these expansions are fine i want to answer the question are they justified i want to answer the question yes or no oslo give me yes or no split

34:04

i’m not interested in Oslo oslo split no because the whole premise of I’m asking you a simple question Flur has the

34:10

expansion of settlements in the West Bank since the start of this war been justified yes or no 94% of Palestinians

34:18

are living under their own in Judea and Samaria is it justified what do you mean

34:25

is it justified of course what justified we are building communities there are communities you’re forcing people out of

34:30

their homes nobody has been forced out have you ever looked at any international law says you’re breaking the law there’s no homes there’s desert

34:38

it’s the Judean desert where there’s It’s very interesting because Okay let me come back to Norman come back to

34:43

Norman people are getting kicked out of You know what Norman here’s my thing for you which you’re going to probably like

34:48

me saying this because I’ve had guests from the Israeli side and when I’ve had that very point that question they have

34:54

actually very quickly said “I think it’s wrong.” Right and I respect that completely i got to say Flur your total

35:00

refusal to accept anything in terms of the settlements since October 7th West Bank is wrong i found I just find it

35:06

outrageous why was there terrorism before 1967 if all of No I am talking about the

35:11

last because you’re talking about territory in the last talking about

35:18

territory that was legitimately conquered after a war we didn’t start in ‘ 67 so let me ask you a question do you

35:26

think that when somebody aggressively starts a war they should never pay a price for that no but I would think you should be honest about what the price

35:33

should be you should be No of course they should should they so what’s the price they should pay no that’s the question I’ve been asking for the last

35:38

year jordan attacked That’s the question I’ve been asking territory was Jordanian and let me tell you something after the

35:44

war they said keep them fine i’m going to Norman for response here’s the thing Norman i we agree about more than you

35:51

may realize and and I do with you as well in certain areas and disagree in others right so I don’t come at this

35:57

from an ideological I’m with one side or the other but I do find anyone who attempts to defend the expansion of

36:03

settlements in the way that we’ve seen i just think that they’re so far one-sided they can’t see the wood for the trees

36:09

out there my big issue with Gaza is not that your characterization is

36:14

necessarily wrong it’s that we as Western media don’t know because we’re not allowed in there and my big big

36:21

problem with the IDF and I’ll get a response from you Flur on this is the IDF’s refusal to let independent Western

36:28

journalists in to verify what they’re doing and to report fairly and freely I think is very telling and increasingly

36:35

damning okay Pierers I listened to you yesterday yesterday’s program when you had Katie Halparrage and Alan Dersuit

36:43

and John Corneriss and Matt Kennard and that point you made yesterday which

36:48

you’re reiterating today I’d like to address it very directly yeah you say the problem is that Israel is or a

36:56

problem is that Israel isn’t admitting journalists and you correctly said it’s fair for a fair-minded person to infer

37:05

from that fact yes so they’re hiding something they’re excellent they’re hiding something no question but that’s

37:10

only half the picture the other half of the picture which I hope your listeners will pay attention to the other half of

37:17

the picture is this since Israel imposed the blockade on Gaza it’s been a basket

37:22

case an e an an economic basket case and all these international organizations

37:27

have had to come in save the children World Food Program Care UNESCO UNICEF

37:35

they all have field operations there they all know the lay of the land

37:40

they’re all still there since October 7th now when South Africa submitted its

37:48

application to the International Court of Justice alleging that Israel was in breach of the uh genocide convention who

37:56

did it site it cited all of these organizations it would be better if we

38:04

had journalists there but really at this point journalistic coverage would be

38:11

superfluous we have all the respect it was never superflous okay I will say superfluous

38:17

meaning we have all of these international respected organizations

38:23

many of them headed by Americans like agency for international I get when they

38:29

charge when they charge when they all charge when they all charge Israel is

38:34

using starvation running low on time I just I want to just hang on that Israel

38:39

is using starvation as a We have about 8 minutes left i just want to answer the special adviser for prevention of

38:45

genocide yesterday for the UN was sacked why because she said that what’s happening in Gaza did not meet the

38:52

definition of genocide this is the special adviser for prevention of genocide what he is talking about is a

38:59

blood liel that Jews have suffered for thousands of years and what’s happening

39:04

today that the little blood liel that used to be oh Jews are killing Christian children for making the bread and all of

39:11

that today as the collective country the Jewish country now today we face the same blood libels but in big that’s

39:18

exactly what’s happen genocide is a blood liel partite is a blood liel

39:24

everything this man talks about the blood you made your point I want I want to ask and he’s having his five minutes

39:29

in the sun because today it’s trending to hate Israel and hate Jews okay but it’ll it’ll be over because we’ve

39:35

survived worse than this i think it’s I want to ask uh Norman just about Donald Trump he’s the new president of the

39:41

United States he’s packed his cabinet with very pro-Israeli people that’s no great secret makes no secret of being

39:48

very pro-Israeli what does that mean do you think for this war i mean on one level it may bring an end to the war

39:54

faster which would be a good thing for everybody but what does it mean going forward i mean my big argument with

40:00

Israel I’ve seen no coherent plan for life after the war and I’ve been very

40:06

cynical about Netanyahu that he’s facing corruption charges the moment this is over he’s also there’s a big report out

40:12

today from Israel uh holding his government to account for the failures of allowing October the 7th to happen on

40:17

their watch there’ll be accountability for that there’s no great incentive for him to end this but Trump may want him

40:23

to end it quickly I suspect but what happens then i mean just let’s just just be big picture here what is going to

40:29

happen do you think well I hate to bear be a bearer of bad news and I’ve been

40:35

criticized on that score by people who normally I would count as my allies but

40:41

as I said I do not I think Gaza is no more just gone what will happen to the

40:46

people i think by hook or by crook they’re going to have to figure out a way to leave well they go into Arab

40:52

neighboring Arab countries oh they want I don’t I don’t I don’t know what what’s going on but as you know peers in the

40:59

modern world right now there are 2.5 million Syrians in Turkey there about

41:05

1.5 million Syrians in Lebanon there are large population movements i don’t want

41:10

to go into that area first of all because it’s speculative and second of all it seems to me it’s a distraction

41:17

from what we should be focusing on now and what we should be focusing on now is what happened who is accountable for it

41:26

because that’s one part of historical justice before I go to fur for response just very quickly because we are

41:31

literally in the last five minutes now should Hamas have any form of power in

41:36

any government after this war pierce I’ve answered that question to you

41:41

before but I’ll answer it again i’ll try to be I will be succinct if Hamas by killing 1,200 people on

41:50

October 7th disqualified itself from participating in any future in the

41:57

resolution of the conflict then Israel by a factor of maybe 20 times more has

42:03

disqualified itself and we have to add it’s not just the state of Israel it’s

42:10

the entire population of Israel which gets more and more

42:17

enthusiastic and relishes more and more each time a massacre unfolds in Gaza but

42:25

we also saw the hang on on that on that we also saw scenes of widespread jubilation when the hostages were

42:32

dragged through the streets in Gaza from a lot of Palestinians the idea that it’s just Hamas members who have a view of an

42:40

anti-Jewish sentiment i saw it with our own eyes he is assigning a cult of death

42:46

to the wrong side he is assigning a cult of death to Israel israel is a cult of life let me ask you a question israel is

42:53

I have four children let me ask you four children and they come home singing

42:58

songs one day we’ll have peace and you know what they teach the Palestinian let me finish the very

43:05

Please not let me answer they also sing death to the Arabs that’s not true even when you do not live in Israel you have

43:11

not even Amsterdam they sing death to the Arabs he’s wrong even in Amsterdam they sing

43:17

death to the Arabs in fact even in Amsterdam they sang you know why there

43:22

are no abused wife he’s justifying our children in the abused wife is justifying the chanting in Amsterdam

43:29

he’s justifying the program the abused wife abused abused wife syndrome in the

43:35

program israel has a cult of life for Jews that’s not true and and the 20 and

43:41

the 20% of Arabs who live and 20% of Arab citizens that live in peace in

43:46

Israel that prosper in Israel that are in every single strata of society in Israel you know who the best educated

43:53

people in Israel are christian Arab women and that’s Israel we celebrate diversity everybody gets opportunities

44:01

including our Muslim our Jews and our Christian population he is living in a

44:06

world that doesn’t exist and is assigning everything that is wrong with Kamas to Now let me just finish with

44:12

something this is Israel Ka who we killed thankfully a billionaire the guy

44:18

who obviously followed the accounting of Kamas yes the blood of women children and elderly we are the ones that need

44:24

this blood so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit this is the guy who stole billions from his own people and

44:30

lived like a king in Doha now I think what both of you get wrong is that this is not a territorial

44:37

conflict this is an ideological conflict because kamas don’t want a two-state solution and unfortunately the PA have

44:45

rejected every two-state solution proposed so what happens at the end of the war 194 at the end of the war there

44:51

is no territorial solution because this is not a territorial i pray that the Abraham

44:56

Accords and that the wider peace in the region will bring the Palestinians to the point that they understand that the

45:03

only way forward is to negotiate with Israel not to go this way or that way

45:08

and not to kill Israelis but to negotiate with Israel israel is a country that I’m so proud of my country

45:14

1948 nobody gave us anything we’ve been fighting wars in settle we’ve built a technological superpower we are curing

45:21

cancer we are curing climate issues you know what we need a cure for doing well we have more crisis per capita than

45:29

anybody else including Arab you know what we need a cure for prosper you know what we need a cure for need a cure we

45:35

need a cure no we need a cure for a 75 year conflict

oooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

oooooo

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