From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (60)

Ibaitik Itsasora

******

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1887980771178070396

******

******

Nikki Haley@NikkiHaley

oooooo

Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

oooooo

Diana Panchenko @Panchenko_X

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915033725693284757

oooooo

Middle East Observer@ME_Observer_

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915073731346497726

oooooo

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915290428577911086

oooooo

Russia is not Enemy@RussiaIsntEnemy

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915072656841249006

oooooo

Assal Rad@AssalRad

BreakThrough News@BTnewsroom

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915121683502960669

oooooo

Eye on Palestine@EyeonPalestine·

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915150922696827340

oooooo

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915019366938067107

oooooo

Suppressed News.@SuppressedNws

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915049544590426292

oooooo

Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur oPt@FranceskAlbs

Aipamena

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights – PCHR@pchrgaza

oooooo

Gaza Notifications@gazanotice

Jackson Hinkle @jacksonhinklle

Quds News Network@QudsNen

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915194427557241096

oooooo

Bideoak: https://x.com/i/status/1915178568998674931

oooooo

Lord Bebo@MyLordBebo

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915099035913916426

oooooo

Chay Bowes@BowesChay

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1914970521273323988

oooooo

Al Jazeera English@AJEnglish

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1914993947803586642

oooooo

Sulaiman Ahmed@ShaykhSulaiman

Mohamad Safa@mhdksafa

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915059085332078979

oooooo

ADAM@AdameMedia

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1915113695895781777

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

The World After Gaza | Pankaj Mishra, Selma Dabbagh, Navtej Sarna with Lindsey Hilsum

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmdNxPI2MOU)

Pankaj Mishra, Selma Dabbagh, Navtej Sarna in conversation with Lindsey Hilsum

The war in Gaza has exposed deep divisions in historical narratives and global power structures. It challenges our understanding of justice, decolonisation, and the postwar world order. Pankaj Mishra, Selma Dabbagh, and Navtej Sarna join Lindsey Hilsum to explore its historical roots, fractured responses, and shifting global dynamics.

Pankaj Mishra is an essayist and novelist, a frequent contributor to the New York Review of Books, London Review of Books and the New Yorker, and the author of two books of history, From the Ruins of Empire and Age of Anger: A History of the Present. His most recent book is Run and Hide: A Novel. His new book The World After Gaza is being published in February 2025.

Selma Dabbagh is a British Palestinian writer and lawyer. She is the author of the novel Out of It, set mainly in Gaza, and writes short stories, radio plays, and works for stage and screen. Dabbagh is the editor of We Wrote in Symbols: Love and Lust by Arab Women Writers. A judge for the EBRD Literature Prize 2025, she also contributes regularly to the London Review of Books.

Navtej Sarna is the author of the recently published novel, Crimson Spring, which has won the KLF award for the Best Fiction Book of 2022 and has been longlisted for the Dublin Literary Award. His earlier books include The Exile and We Weren’t Lovers Like That; a short story collection, Winter Evenings; works of non-fiction, Second Thoughts, The Book of Nanak and Indians at Herod’s Gate; and the translations, Savage Harvest and Zafarnama. A professional diplomat for nearly four decades, Sarna was India’s Ambassador to the United States, High Commissioner to the UK and Ambassador to Israel.

Lindsey Hilsum, Channel 4 News’ International Editor, is a celebrated war correspondent and author. Known for covering major conflicts from Syria to Rwanda, she has won numerous awards. Her biography In Extremis: The Life of War Correspondent Marie Colvin earned the 2019 James Tait Black Prize. Hilsum contributes regularly to leading newspapers and journals.

Transkripzioa:

0:04

hello and welcome to the front lawn oh I can see very few people are interested

0:09

in Gaza just a handful of you here then thank you so much for coming to

0:15

this session the world after Gaza which my colleague there has already introduced the panel so there’s no need

0:22

for me to do so um Pang gash Mishra is the writer of this new book which is

0:28

coming out in February anybody who’s here for the previous session uh you’re not seeing double he has done two

0:34

sessions back to back I just want to say one thing before we get to the essence

0:42

of this which is to ask the question how do we know what’s going on in

0:47

Gaza I have been to Gaza many times as a journalist but I haven’t been recently

0:53

because neither the Israeli nor the Egyptian government would allow foreign journalists to go there so what we know

1:00

about Gaza comes from three sources from the official Israeli

1:05

sources the government and the military from Aid workers and from unbelievably

1:11

Brave Palestinian gazan journalists [Applause]

1:18

159 Palestinian Gaz and journalists have been killed by Israeli fire during this

1:25

conflict and that compares to 69 killed in in World War II and 63 in Vietnam and

1:32

they are doing the work which means that we know what’s going on while living in tents while trying to look after their

1:40

families while having to dig latrines and look for food so the first thing I

1:46

want to say is to thank Palestinian guards and journalists for keeping us

1:53

informed so let me turn first of all to panash since since this uh session is

1:59

named for your book you have written no disaster compares to Gaza nothing has

2:06

left us with such an intolerable weight of grief perplexity and bad conscience

2:14

now given all the terrible things that are going on in the world the way the Taliban treats women in this

2:19

neighborhood what’s happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo what’s happening in Sudan why write that about Gaza

2:30

thank you um thank you Ry um I think you know largely because um

2:38

unlike the other atrocities you you you mention I think maybe you could hold the

2:44

microphone a bit closer can you hear in the back can you hear me yeah good okay um unlike the atrocities you mentioned I

2:52

think um Gaza or what has happened in Gaza the extermination of a of a whole

3:00

people is something in which we are all to varying degrees complicit complicit

3:06

because um the people we work with whether it’s journalists uh the people we vote for

3:14

politicians um they have in in in varying degrees expressed support for it

3:19

they have funded this this extraordinary act of violence and and dispossession so

3:25

I think you know people keep saying making this foolish argument m is why are you not so concerned about what is

3:32

happening in Sudan or or in Myanmar or in or in China um in in in various other

3:39

parts of the world and the answer is very simple it’s very straightforward in in none of these places uh do we have

3:46

such an extraordinary degree of complicity in a moral obscenity which is

3:52

which is what is happening in Gaza over the last few months and why but you your

3:58

book you you place what’s happening in Gaza very much in the context of the shower of the Holocaust of what happened

4:05

to Jews in World War II can you can you explain that a bit to us yeah I think you know it’s very important to think

4:13

about this uh what has happened there not just as uh something emerging out of

4:19

a long-standing dispute between uh Israel and

4:25

dispossessed Palestinians but you know I think the whole

4:30

justification for the way Israel has conducted itself over the years not just

4:36

in the over the last few months but during the long years of the occupation during the long years of of you know

4:42

systemic violence that justification is drawn from a very carefully cultivated

4:49

memory of the Holocaust um and that this happened to us and therefore we will not

4:55

let this happen to us again which you know again when you extend this argument

5:01

um everyone who’s opposed to you turns into either a Nazi or an anti-semite so

5:08

you see how you can draw a particular memory a particular lesson from the Holocaust which is put at the service of

5:16

Israeli expansionism or Israeli colonialism and have you seen that change over the the years that

5:23

consciousness of the Holocaust that that if we can call it weaponization of the Holocaust have you noticed that change

5:29

in change in the years that you’ve been following this you know I think historians have have obviously you know

5:35

charted uh the ways the years through which a very particular memory of the

5:41

Holocaust was weaponized you know of course we know that the people the actual survivors of the Holocaust were treated with great contempt by the first

5:49

leaders of the state of Israel they were not seen as you know fit material for a for a strong uh Jewish nation and they

5:57

were really very badly treated many of of them it was only much later from the 1960s onwards that politicians in in

6:06

Israel started to invoke the Holocaust as a sort of nation building narrative

6:12

as a nation building glue so since the 1960s to answer your question I think

6:17

that narrative has entrenched itself not only in Israel but also in the most important uh constituency of supporters

6:24

that the that the state of Israel has which is in the United States where the Holocaust you know even though it

6:30

happened a long time ago has entire museums devoted to it you know no other atrocity in the world has the same place

6:38

in the American moral imagination as the Holocaust and this has all been an incredibly deliberate effort to

6:45

essentially create a very strong support base for the state of Israel so s let me

6:50

turn to you because you as a a Palestinian British writer you’ve been writing a lot in the London Review of Books you’ve been sort of blogging about

6:57

this do you is there a do you see this as a different context now for your

7:03

writing about Palestine than from earlier before what happened on October

7:08

the the 7th 2023 and the assault on Gaza since um um thank you Lindsay and I’d

7:16

just like to say thank you to the jaipore Festival of literature because there are few platforms available to

7:23

Palestinians and so thank you for hosting me um thank you

7:31

I think um one of the um misfortunes and slight shame in being a Palestinian

7:37

writer is that your the demand for your writing is contingent upon the new cycle

7:45

which is often only dependent upon mass killing so you have you have to kind of

7:53

Step Up at situations when you’re not entirely convinced that you are necess

7:59

necessarily the best voice uh the most authentic voice but you are trying to get out the voices on the ground as best

8:06

as you can and I really appreciate your tribute to the gazen journalists because

8:12

the the way that the killing in Gaza the destruction of Gaza has been carried out

8:18

is so comprehensive and so multi-layered and so blacked out there have been the

8:25

impossibility for international journalists to get in is has never been so strong I’ve heard Alex Crawford of

8:32

Sky News say that she’s got into the most totalitarian states in the world she’s got into anyone but she’s tried

8:39

num on numerous occasions to get into Gaza and that has been impossible so there’s not very much news coming out

8:45

from the official channels and that which does come out is often skewed it’s biased it uses a passive language it

8:53

refuses to name Israel for some of the as a perpetrator for some of the reasons

8:58

of sensitivity that panash brings out so brilliantly in his book so as a

9:04

Palestinian writer you’re trying to just on the outside trying to find the best

9:09

way to position in I’m not a trained journalist but to try and make the the

9:15

story one which can emotionally resonate and in perhaps in some ways to compound

9:21

the reality for individuals on the ground so that you’re you’re saying that this person who is injured is also

9:27

somebody who is grieving is also somebody who can’t access their family in the north who cannot who has has had

9:34

to move house four or five times whose hospital has been bombed who’s been subjected to sniper attack it’s not just

9:41

the statistics on their own do not conflate the reality for the individual in a way that fiction writing so how do

9:47

you yeah so I think that this is really important it’s a question of you know individual stories which we as

9:53

journalists know is often what reaches people how do you manage to find those individual stories

9:59

um well since uh I have some friends who are in Gaza I’m very lucky and fortunate

10:05

to have some extraordinary Brave um courageous and selfless people as in my friendship

10:11

group a lot of whom are Palestinians one went out as uh as a doctor rasan abusa

10:18

in the um straight after the um October the 7th and was serving in the alah um

10:26

hospital and was nearly killed on several occasions so I had accounts from

10:31

him I also have some one friend who was in the north of Gaza with her children

10:37

and she managed to she hid you know they were hiding in a in a in a flat for a long time expecting to die with her

10:44

teenagers they managed to walk to the south of Gaza she this was after about

10:50

six seven weeks she got her children out she got them to their father who was outside the country and then she

10:56

returned and she’s now working with a humanitarian organization in the south of Gaza so she sometimes gives me

11:02

updates as to what is happening there so I’m sort of following her story and the story of a colleague in in the North in

11:08

jabalia refugee camp so this is really valuable because these are firsthand reports uh navage let me uh turn to you

11:14

because the Indian government is pretty close to the Israeli government and um

11:20

we see a very different uh position here uh towards what’s going on than in other

11:26

governments in what is generally called the Global South I know that doesn’t work completely as a phrase so forgive

11:33

me for it but can you just explain to us a little bit about the evolution of the Indian government position and why you

11:40

see the Indian government as being so close to Israel at this time thank you Linds and privileged to

11:46

be here on this panel uh let me first preface my remarks

11:51

by saying that I no longer speak for the Indian government uh I’ve I’ve done my share of

11:58

that but I am not in government anymore so what I can say only is as as a kind

12:04

of an uh you know an observer who knows and has been there uh you know the

12:10

Indian position on Israel has evolved quite quite distinctly and in stages

12:17

over the last 75 years India was never

12:22

in favor of uh the partition of of Palestine or of on the base or of the

12:28

for formation of a state on the basis of religion India was itself fighting the

12:35

two Nation theory in 47 so in 48 we were not in favor of of of a while retaining

12:42

Sympathy for the Jewish people both Gandhi and Neu did not feel in favor of a Jewish homeland in

12:49

Palestine but recognizing the realities India recognized Israel in 1950 after a

12:57

very intensive 2year debate in India on on the

13:02

issue thereafter for the next 42 years India did not have diplomatic relations

13:08

with Israel that does not mean we did not have informal contacts uh there were several visits informally by very

13:15

significant politicians uh to Israel and there was a connection there was a

13:21

Israeli Consulate in Bombay from 1953

13:26

onwards and during those 4 2 years and this is important to mention Israel was

13:32

an important military partner in cases of need of India in 65 and and in 71 and

13:41

finally in ’92 at the end of the Cold War the collapse of the Soviet Union

13:46

India felt that the world was changing the chessboard was being jiggled and

13:51

given the fact that India’s relationship with the United States was moving ahead

13:57

India set up diplomatic relations now thereafter gradually the relations

14:02

between India and Israel have gone closer and closer and so we get to today we get today we we fast forward I fast

14:10

forward the next 33 years yesterday was the anniversary of 33 years uh India has

14:18

a very strong relationship with Israel both in strategic and diplomatic terms

14:23

and India has largely been careful to balance this with its support for the

14:29

Palestinian cause both on in real terms in terms of Aid Etc in terms of

14:34

statements in the UN it is inevitable that you cannot maintain this balance and that is what

14:43

probably you are you are referring to uh in in recent years there has been a very

14:49

close government to government connect between India and Israel and India Israel is today your arguably your

14:56

second largest supplier of Defense equipment and so I think given this

15:02

these are the things which have led up to it and thereafter that has C to a

15:08

large extent defined the nuancing of India’s position post October 7 October

15:14

7 the first reaction from India saw October 7 as an attack of Terror and

15:20

having suffered I’m trying to explain this having suffered the same terror

15:26

attack on Israel and India in Mumbai in 2008 the Indian reaction was purely

15:32

based on the terror attack thereafter India started nuancing it and certainly

15:37

it did not Nuance it to the point that the global South as you call it did

15:42

because some resolutions we abstained some resolutions we went with the rest of the global South but I must say the

15:49

global South as you yourself said is a very imorph entity yeah and each country

15:55

has its personal or individual relationship India has different

16:00

relationships with Israel with the United States and with the Arab Partners than many other countries in the global

16:07

South so that I think is the without trying to justify a position on any uh

16:13

resolution I’m trying to give you the overall context but let me pass then to to panash so what do you make of the

16:19

Indian position because in this book you write quite a lot about that and about the evolution of your own position as an

16:26

Indian as a boy with a picture of Moshe Diane on on the wall and then your Evolution from your Indian background

16:33

into how you see it now yes I mean you know I did uh grow up naively um

16:40

thinking of you know Israel as this country on which India should model itself uh this is a position now held by

16:46

a lot of people today um but you know I suppose I was one of the earliest uh

16:52

people or earli as Indians to think that way that position was um corrected

16:59

rectified when I came into contact As I Grew Older you know learned a little bit more about uh uh Palestinian history

17:07

personally came into contact with Palestinian students in in in different cities across India especially

17:14

especially in in in Delhi at uh gnu and of course at that time I

17:20

remember you know I think India under uh Rajiv Gandhi um and even afterwards uh

17:26

was still fully committed to I mean you know were developing as enough AG says

17:31

um but I think political politicians and popular culture in general there was a lot of Sympathy for the Palestinians lot

17:39

of support for them and you could see that you know in the high level visits that were being exchanged all the time

17:45

there was also degree of cultural exchange um and I feel like you know in

17:50

in many ways that position of moral solidarity with the Palestinians which

17:56

also gave India kind of moral lead leadership in The Wider World which was also you know a position that was very

18:03

successfully maintained by Neu and others I feel like we’ve we’ve we’ve squandered it uh today India is out of

18:11

Step even with a nuanced position that napes describes with you know Global

18:16

sentiment on this issue it’s only a tiny minority of people that is supporting

18:22

and enabling what Israel is doing today public sympathy around the world is

18:27

overwhelmingly disgusted by it and on this issue India risks you know suddenly

18:34

seem like uh even if it’s not actually actively supporting enabling it seems like it’s lost an opportunity to

18:40

reassert itself as a moral force in in international politics so let me so

18:46

that’s really interesting so s you’re a British Palestinian writer or

18:52

a Palestinian British writer whichever way and we’ve see this outpouring of Sympathy for the Palestinian cause in in

18:58

the UK there’s been a lot of demonstrations much more than there ever were before and a British government um

19:06

which tries the new osor which is fundamentally pro-israel um how do you navigate that

19:13

and why do you think there is so much of an more of an outpouring of support for the Palestinian cause now than there was

19:20

when you were writing about this I don’t know 5 10 years ago yeah um thank you I mean it’s um there has been there have

19:28

been and there continue to be amazing demonstrations in London it’s been quite

19:33

radicalizing in terms of the way that politics has moved onto the street uh

19:39

and these have have been very uplifting occasions which are now being clamped on clamped down on very severely we had 77

19:46

arrests on Saturday the 18th of January um in a in in in a way which uh was very

19:54

disturbing when it comes to um you know public

20:00

freedoms for me um in terms of the outpouring of interest is because I

20:05

think what we’ve been trying to say for a very long time about the nature of the state of Israel and the Zionist project

20:13

and the apartheid which is enshrined within this idea of racial segregation

20:18

has now got a lot more credibility in terms of this was

20:24

prior to October but we had four reports by one Palestinian one Israeli um and

20:32

two international human rights organizations all describing um apartheid a system of apartheid against

20:39

the Palestinians in 2022 so that kind of it started to sort of shatter the kind of vocabulary that

20:45

you were being prevented from using in this space I think what has happened

20:51

since October is basically it’s it’s pretty hard to to hide the level of the

20:57

the destruction the completely dehumanizing uh vocabulary that is

21:03

coming out of the Israeli government and the people are responding to that perhaps because the whole situation has

21:10

become a lot more black and white it it is to my mind a genocide and to a lot of

21:15

other reputable organizations I don’t think we should be scared of that word either and and people are just it’s also

21:22

the outrage in the UK for example that you’re saying you know this is a country who signed the genocide convention it’s

21:28

one of the most it’s one of the oldest the most um it’s got more signatories than any other International it was like

21:35

it was it was just an Untouchable you know that you this is these there are certain things that states don’t do and

21:41

I think for to speaking for the British public to feel that not only is this something that is going on but it’s

21:47

something that the politicians are being complicit in aiding and abetting that

21:52

they are allowing you know the the hos so you’ve got this tension in the UK

21:58

between Mass public support which has never been so high at least 70% of the

22:03

population but you’ve never had such hostility and capture within the government and it’s that sort of you you

22:10

say 70% I have no idea I’ve seen different things but it’s actually a very polarizing debate because it isn’t

22:17

um you know it’s not everybody is believes as you do this is quite a polarizing debate and we we see a lot of

22:23

pro-israeli voices coming up as well and it’s actually a very it’s a very painful debate isn’t it because we see uh we see

22:31

a lot of screaming and shouting and not a lot of listening yeah I mean I think that is

22:38

it’s the I there’s something fundamentally binary about this conflict it’s like is it your land or is it my

22:44

land you know and it it means that people can’t sort of get around the

22:50

Nuance or they get bogged down in the in some of the historical detail and it and

22:55

it is from the Palestinian perspective the the Zionist project has our Erasure

23:03

as being Central to it not all early Zionism believed that you had to expel

23:09

the Palestinians in entirety back you know there was quite a healthy debate around this issue but the the the myths

23:17

that were told which um have been very well documented was that either the Palestinians weren’t there they didn’t

23:23

exist or if they were there they were indistinguishable from other Arabs and they’d be sort of spirited across the

23:29

border so you’ve got so when the Zion state was set up and the Palestinians

23:34

were still very much there every every attempt has been made to to eradicate

23:41

their existence through their the destruction of their culture through the closing down of their voices so there’s

23:48

a strong and whereas on the Israeli side they feel you cannot live on this land without wanting to push us into the sea

23:55

so there’s a degree of polariz but there’s also in the UK um Israeli Jews

24:00

would say that there is an upsurge of anti-Semitism as well wouldn’t they they would say that I the a lot of the

24:08

figures on anti-Semitism are I are a little contested and it’s

24:13

definitely a much more heavily monitored than for example islamophobia um and I don’t know whether

24:21

um from my own personal experience I think it is monitored and policed and

24:26

anyone suffering from anti-Semitism is supported far more than anybody who’s being closed down for being Palestinian

24:32

okay that’s interesting so let me come back to you with your um your diplom

24:38

your diplomatic experience so we’re moving into a new situation now we have

24:43

President Trump who’s just come in who I think has described Gaza as um seafront

24:49

real estate is that right and suggested that um the Palestinian gazans um why

24:56

don’t they just go to Egypt to Jordan and that’ll solve the problem um how do

25:02

you see that playing internationally I think it’s a disastrous

25:09

idea uh you cannot you cannot ask people to leave their home uh just to clean up

25:17

real estate potential I’m I’m sorry but I think a lot of people have seen this just as

25:24

territory uh Gaza has been mentioned has having tremendous potential for

25:29

waterfront properties uh it’s been mentioned as yeah why don’t you go to Egypt or Jordan

25:36

let’s not forget this is the home of the Palestinian people and you have to find

25:42

a solution to this problem and the fact remains that there is a certain land

25:48

between the river and the Sea and it was occupied by some people others felt they

25:55

had a right to it somewhere you have to reconcile these two demands and you

26:00

cannot do it either by killing everybody on the other side or by throwing them

26:05

away well you say you can’t but that seems to be what is being attempted well

26:11

well you know I I think if you go back to the original sin I might take the discussion back to the Baler declaration

26:18

somebody should it always comes back to the bord Declaration whenever I’m in Palestine I begin to realize it’s all my

26:23

fault personally do go yes let’s not go back to the B

26:28

let’s let’s look at now because I think one of the things that bangash has written which I really liked is he says

26:33

I’m writing in a strange Chasm between an insufficiently understood past and a

26:39

menacing future so actually let me let me come to you I’ll come back to you what what did you mean by that I think

26:46

we have to um understand um what has happened again you know emphasizing this

26:52

point um not again something confined to that region or you know easily uh

27:00

reduced to a dispute over real estate over land between two you know parties I

27:06

think um the global complicity in this genocide in this act of mass

27:14

extermination points to something far more disturbing and I think we’ve seen this radically confirmed over the last

27:20

few months with the sudden Ascent of trump and over the last you know crazy two weeks these um decisions uh made to

27:28

deport you know over 10 million supposedly illegal immigrants um various

27:34

other you know policies including ethnic cleansing on of Palestine and you see

27:40

what’s happening in Europe today uh with the far right surging in different parts of Europe so I think in many ways Gaza

27:46

has come as a reminder of just how radically our world is changing and the

27:52

ways in which uh responsible people supposedly responsible people have or

27:58

are becoming complicit in monstrous acts of violence and dispossession and that

28:03

is really you know truly the world after Gaza that we have to confront and think very very seriously about let me come

28:10

back to you before I come to you what how do you respond to that because that places Gaza in this terrifying

28:16

International context no I I think I agree with the way buker has has framed

28:22

it because essentially if you’re looking at the powers that be in primarily the United States they are looking at trying

28:29

to find a new framework for the Middle East in which Israel can live in a

28:35

normalized fashion with with with the Saudis and with other Arab countries and

28:41

you know develop projects and economic projects and I mean the

28:46

Palestinian issue seems to be an irritant in these plans but

28:51

unfortunately as October 7 has showed this is not an issue that you can brush

28:57

under under the carpet you have to face it and you have to resolve it and

29:02

unfortunately in the current thinking among the powers that be among the you

29:08

know the people who are in power today in different places this is not something which you know there is a

29:16

death of the statesmanship and the vision and the Strategic generosity that

29:22

this will require yeah so let me tell to you something because it seems to be an important part of this we we see all these horrendous pictures of the

29:30

destroyed homes and apartment buildings and hospitals and the dead children it’s

29:35

horrendous but within that also is this issue about a um an Erasure of culture

29:41

which it seems to me is a really important thing because you know man human beings do not live by bread alone

29:47

and Palestinian culture I think is an extremely significant part of this so

29:53

some can you talk a little bit about that about what that means Palestinian culture what you understand by that yeah

29:59

thank you um I think with the we’ve been seeing over the last maybe two decades I

30:05

mean in running in tandem with the destruction of Palestinian culture we’ve been having an explosion of

30:12

real real creativity and Ingenuity and lots of new voices coming out from

30:19

Palestine who are expressing themselves mainly through film and literature and

30:25

um if you speak about film you’ll find that most sort of um Arab film festivals you get a disproportionate number of

30:31

submissions from Palestine whether they are you know documentary or feature or

30:37

you know animation so people are using what they have to create um and create

30:44

well and to tell their stories in in ways that you know add to the new story

30:50

there’s also within literature you’ve got Palestinian literature being written in English in French in Hebrew and in

30:56

Arabic you’ve got um new voices coming through and I think uh distinguished

31:02

from other parts of other countries in the region you’ve often got a kind of iconoclastic feel to it it’s very much

31:10

um it’s been freed up I would say since the ’90s from being too much um jammed

31:17

within this idea of revolutionary literature where you have the kind of have the cfir and the kalishnikov and

31:22

you kind of surmount all it’s it’s become a lot more uh diverse interesting a lot of very brave and very creative

31:30

and very witty and very absurdist writers both male and female so that’s

31:35

been a positive and I’d like to stress that and I think that is a really interesting thing now before I open to

31:40

questions I’m going to abuse my position as the chair um because I’m aware that

31:45

we don’t have a Garen voice up here and I have just so happens written a book

31:51

which is on sale in the Bookshop uh which is some of my own writing and poetry and I have one poem in the book

31:57

by a gazan Palestine poet called mosa babuta now mosa babuta um was in Gaza

32:04

for the early period after October 7th and he writes in English and he did um

32:10

thank goodness manage to survive despite being arrested and he writes this extraordinary poem called my dreams as a

32:17

child which I think tells us such a lot about growing up as a child in

32:22

Gaza I still have dreams about a room filled with toys my mother always

32:28

promise we could have if we were rich I still have dreams about seeing the refugee camp from a window on a plane I

32:36

still have dreams about seeing the animals I learned about in third grade elephant giraffe kangaroo and wolf I

32:44

still have dreams about running for miles and miles with no border blocking my feet with no unexploded bombs scaring

32:52

me off I still have dreams about watching my favorite team playing soccer on the beach Beach me standing and

32:59

waiting for the ball to come my way and run away with it I still have dreams

33:05

about my grandfather how much I want to pick oranges with him in yaffa but my

33:11

grandfather died yaffa is occupied and the oranges no longer grow

33:17

on his weeping [Applause]

33:23

Groves let us open up to a few questions one of the things I would say is that I’m aware that this is a subject that

33:28

raises passions please no speeches and rants if anybody rants I will give you

33:35

one of my evil looks you won’t like that so please questions for our wonderful

33:41

panel oh my God it’s hard to um choose okay I’m randomly going to choose a lady

33:47

with dark glasses in the sort of fourth row yes the lady who’s waving with the light colored shirt she’s going to ask a

33:54

very good concise question she’s not going to rant are you I won’t my name is sang I’m a journalist uh in the UK

34:02

indeed you are and hello Lindsay and uh the panel has already touched on um what

34:09

I would describe as a fundamental breach of trust between parts of the general

34:14

public both in the UK and here in India and the way in which politicians and

34:19

journalists Legacy Media have reported and presented the facts around uh this

34:26

assault on Gaza would any of the panel be willing to Hazard a guess as to what

34:32

the short medium or long-term impacts that that might bring in terms of

34:38

culture society and Trust okay I’m going to take another more question so we’ve got bear that in your mind the impact of

34:45

this Divergence between government position um what Zan calls Legacy Media

34:50

that’s me guys and um and public positions um there’s a gentleman in a blue shirt at the front I’m not ignoring

34:57

everybody on this side I’m going to come to you in a minute but let’s go to this gentleman first uh what is the role of

35:05

Hamas and uh the hostage Tak yeah the hostage that’s a very very good question

35:10

thank you for asking that so hostages some of whom are being released um at this time some yesterday the Israeli

35:16

hostages who were taken by Hamas on October the 7th um who wants to take either of those two

35:23

questions go on you take the pan I think I’ll um answer the question about the

35:28

the media since I work in one um I mean definitely a catastrophic loss of faith

35:35

and trust in established institutions Legacy institutions and you know I think um for

35:42

many people it’s actually come really as a extremely rude reminder that many of

35:48

these institutions had um been misrepresenting various political issues

35:55

economic issues for an extremely long time but at no point had they degenerated so

36:02

far as they did while covering or indeed not covering uh live stream genocide so

36:10

I think in that sense this is you know a a really a new new law uh and for many

36:16

people I think the response is to turn very unsatisfactorily to social media or

36:23

or or you know various alternative media institutions and we know that they are also founds of misinformation so this is

36:30

by no means you know the the kind of resolution or outcome we want but I think at the same time people are now

36:35

trying to create alternative platforms for analysis or information because I

36:41

mean the number of Institutions we can no longer Trust on this issue including the BBC the New York Times is truly

36:49

truly extraordinary and unprecedented yeah I have to mount some defense of my own profession we show Gaza every single

36:58

day on channel 4 news and we have an amazing uh reporter and Camera operator there called Yousef hamash who’s now

37:04

left who has a fleet of journalists and I think that those pictures have come out and I I know people feel angry with

37:09

the BBC the BBC is a very large institution and I would say that some of my colleagues have done an amazing job

37:16

including their Garen people who have reported a great personal danger as well

37:22

these the gar and journalists are reporting to the evil Legacy Media and we are seeing some of those pictures not

37:28

however if we live in Israel can we come to the the hostages and so would you like to say something about that because it’s an important Point well I think the

37:35

question was what do you think of Hamas and the hostage taking I I think there was there was no sympathy for Hamas

37:43

certainly I’m talking about India there was no sympathy for Hamas in the way the

37:49

attack on October 7 took place uh having said that I think that sympathy

37:56

unfortunately Ely began to evaporate when more and more exposure of the

38:01

civilian loss of life and in Gaza came came it came into the public domain so I

38:08

think somewhere that that has to be kept in perspective the second point I want to make here is that while Hamas has no

38:17

sympathy for what it did on October 7 the question was a uh why did that

38:24

happen how was allow h allowed to grow to such proportions yes what were the

38:31

questions that were ignored for Hamas to launch this and to be allowed to launch

38:37

this was every had everybody taken their eye off the ball and here I think you go

38:43

to the heart of the problem the proposition has been put forward with considerable conviction that October 7

38:51

is not the cause but perhaps also the result of what happened earlier yeah I think that’s a very very good point

38:57

let’s take a few more from this side we’ve got a a lady here um yes you with

39:02

a sort of dark redened cream color hi um you know now we see that there’s almost

39:09

a dichotomy between the people in different democracies and how they feel about the issue versus the politicians

39:15

and why do you think that politicians therefore continue their position on Israel is it that they don’t think it’s an election issue or is it ipac or what

39:22

else oh yeah so the dichotomy between politicians and what is perceived as

39:28

general public opinion and there’s a gentleman behind let’s go to him as well

39:37

yep so um no rant but I have to situate

39:42

myself fine uh I understand the word a partite you can tell from my accent that

39:48

I grew up in South Africa I am a Jew an Israeli and a Zionist and possibly the

39:56

only person person in this uh area who um has been to bomb shelters on many

40:03

occasions with my children and grandchildren I wonder and I’m glad that

40:08

William is standing over there I wonder when the jlf decided rightly that this

40:16

was a crucial question to have for this year’s jlf and I’ve been here many times

40:22

before why the decision was made to have panels

40:27

which would not include voices like my own which are opposed to the present

40:35

Netanyahu regime but feel very strongly

40:40

that the position of Israel and the history of Israel has not been in any

40:46

way presented in an honest fashion by the

40:51

jlf and I I have to say I am fearful of

40:57

the responses of many of the people over here because of the the the way certain

41:03

ideas were were applauded and uh there is a book that I recommend to many of

41:11

you and it’s about why people prefer dead Jews thank you for your

41:18

intervention it wasn’t a question but under the circumstances I thank you very much for it and let’s take the first um

41:26

question which was this Gap as perceived by the the lady in the in the lovely stripy top um about a a perceived gap

41:36

between populations and governments would you like to address that Selma um

41:41

yeah I mean thank you I mean just to go to the last week I don’t really like the aspersion that there’s a dishonesty

41:47

going on up here on the you want to point your mic yeah so just to um yeah

41:53

say that’s not quite how it is but on on the issue of um the government um in the

42:02

UK the labor party has been decimated from uh from containing anyone who has

42:08

ever expressed any pro Palestinian view this happened with with Corbin there’s a

42:13

very good documentary um the lobby by El jazer there’s another one called the

42:19

label files which is based on a lot of leaked whatsapps and if you look at that you’ll see how uh that party in

42:26

particular was had any any voice that stood up for Palestine in any way shape

42:32

or form removed and it’s I think it’s also had the effect of really disabling

42:39

the the left in the UK uh within the conservative party there’s been a bit of

42:44

a Witch Hunt uh with regards to anyone who speaks out on Palestinians there are very few of them but one example is s

42:51

Alan Duncan who was asked to who was kicked out of the conservative party

42:57

apparently because there have been complaints about um that he was seen to be anti-semitic he went to lawyers he

43:04

challenged the conservative party it was revealed that no complaints have been made so people are being pushed out for

43:12

really having often done nothing for there not being any complaints I think the chill factor around politicians to

43:19

deal with this subject honestly and with Integrity is enormous and I think it needs to be challenged it’s just it’s

43:27

it’s we’re in a deplorable state which is regrettable and I hope I think bridging that gap

43:33

between public opinion which is of in being increasingly informed by different

43:38

forms of media which are trusted and what’s going on in government finding a

43:43

way to to bridge that is something one thing I would say is that I think it is

43:48

always a mistake to think that public opinion agrees with oneself because I do think public opinion is is quite divided

43:55

we are actually coming to the end Willie did you want to say something in response to the gentleman there because

44:02

I can’t speak for the uh jlf but we have a man who can and his name is Willie Del

44:08

rimple and he’s going to say something but you have 1 minute and 25 seconds I won’t even take that long but we have

44:14

three Israelis and one Palestinian at this Festival just to make this clear

44:20

and um this panel was inspired by the fact that panage uh was trying to give a similar

44:28

panel in London and the panel was closed down by the barbacan and the session was

44:34

cancelled one of the great glories of this country is that we can speak about these issues here and this is why we

44:40

have nine nine sessions on this important issue at jao

44:47

Festival thank you very much ladies and gentlemen thank you for your contributions all of you thank you to

44:54

the panel um you must buy pan ‘s book tragically it’s not out till next month

45:00

so you can’t buy it can they buy it right now they can’t can oh it is available fabulous you can get an

45:06

advanced copy go to the book shop or wherever he’s signing um you guys do you

45:12

have a book out which you’re signing he’s got a book out which he’s signing have you got a book out which you’re signing I think no yes we’ve all got

45:18

books out that we’re signing go and buy our books and get them signed and thank

45:24

you so much for coming to the session on the world after Gaza

oooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

oooooo

---