From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (59)

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Jackson Hinkle @jacksonhinklle

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REPORT | Moroccan Dockworkers and Protesters Disrupt Maersk Shipment of F-35 Parts to Israel

Protesters and dockworkers in Tangier and Casablanca took to the streets and ports on Sunday to resist the docking of Maersk ships suspected of transporting components for F-35 warplanes used in Israeli airstrikes on Gaza. What began as mass demonstrations has now escalated into a direct labor refusal at the Tangier Med Port — a clear stand by Moroccan port workers against Israel’s military supply chain for genocide.

Thread continues below Video: Protests in Casablanca today

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Younis Tirawi | يونس@ytirawi

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Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

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Manufacturing a Monster: Britain, America and Israeli Violence with Professor Avi Shlaim

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGVSvL6yQU)

The genocide in Gaza has opened up a new world of intellectual exploration for so many of us who have been for too long ignorant of the details. Many of us have had to deconstruct our worldviews and start again, looking at the world through a more critical lens. The impunity with which Israel pursues its ends is genuinely bewildering. How is it that most Western politicians remain uncritical allies of a regime that is eradicating a people from its land through multiple means, including the systematic use of violence? I met with the eminent Jewish historian Avi Shlaim at the Oxford Middle East Centre. Professor Shlaim has recently authored an uncompromising book on the intent of the Israeli state and her Western backers. Titled Genocide in Gaza, Israel’s long war on the Palestinians – it is probably one of the most lucid historical books I have read on the topic in a while. Today, we want to dip into that history to truly understand the genocidal intent that is sewn into the intellectual fabric of Zionism. In particular, I want to understand the key roles of Britain and America in feeding this settler colonial project and their shared goals. We all know how difficult it has been for food and essential supplies to reach the beleaguered people of Gaza. This, Insha’Allah, is changing. We have partnered with a charity, Baitulmaal, because now, more than ever, there is a need not only in Gaza but also in Turkish controlled Northern Syria and in all the places we routinely talk about in this program where our ummah is subject to abject poverty. We have chosen this charity because Baitulmaal is a non-profit with people on the ground who organize well-thought-out projects and serve the most needy.

Timestamps:

0:00 – Introduction

2:50 – Zionism

6:27 – Israeli Intent

9:34 – Donate to Baitulmaal

10:34 – Zionism and political elites

16:16 – Role of Britain and America

19:56 – Israel and British Empire

22:28 – Role of Herbert Samuel

30:48 – Britain Zionist fall out

40:42 – Oslo accords

48:24 – Become a member

50:20 – PLO and Oslo accords

1:00:12 – America’s role

1:05:39 – Biden’s presidency and Israel

1:11:51 – Trump’s diplomacy

1:19:19 – UK’s Labour government

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

and the logic of settler colonialism is the elimination of the natives balfo

0:06

Lloyd George and Churchill they look down on Arabs as inferior you had to

0:11

eliminate to remove the Arabs in 1917 the Arabs were 90% and the Jews

0:20

were 10% and the Jews owned only 2% of the land and Churchill said referring to

0:26

the Palestinians he said “I think that the Arabs should make way for a better

0:32

race.” You could say that the Zionists learned the really brutal tricks from the British in British eyes a

0:38

Palestinian state was synonymous with a MUI state america continued to give

0:45

Israel economic military and diplomatic support biden is the only person who

0:51

could have stopped that war in its tracks britain under a Labor government

0:56

is an active partner in committing genocide in

1:03

Gaza the genocide in Gaza has opened up a new world of intellectual exploration

1:08

for so many of us who have been for too long ignorant of the details many of us

1:14

have had to deconstruct our world views and start again looking at the world through a more critical lens the

1:20

impunity with which Israel pursues its ends is genuinely bewildering how is it

1:26

that most Western politicians remain uncritical allies of a regime that is

1:31

eradicating its people from its land through multiple means including the systematic use of violence i met up with

1:40

the eminent Jewish historian Abishm at the Oxford Middle East Center professor

1:45

Shalm has recently authored an uncompromising book on the intent of the Israeli state and her western backers

1:53

titled Genocide in Gaza Israel’s long war on the Palestinians it is probably

1:59

one of the most lucid historical books I have read on this topic in a while today

2:04

we want to dip into the history to truly understand the genocidal intent that is sewn into the intellectual fabric of

2:11

Zionism in particular I want to understand the key roads of Britain and America in feeding this settler colonial

2:19

project and their shared goals please do remember to subscribe to this podcast

2:24

and to help the podcast even further do think about becoming a member just head over to our website

2:32

thinkingmuslim.com/membership professor Aish Shalm welcome back to the Thinking Muslim it’s a pleasure to be with you

2:38

again well it’s so lovely to have you with us um professor now uh we would like to cover today um Britain and

2:46

America’s role in this settler colonial project uh of Israel and um I really

2:53

want to cover the history but also the current contemporary genocide in in Gaza

2:58

and uh a lot of what we’re going to talk about is covered in your in your fantastic book genocide in Gaza uh but I

3:04

would like to start with uh the idea of Zionism maybe to uh to take us back to

3:10

our first interview um you place the current genocide within the context of

3:15

an ideology an ideology of Zionism can you explain uh a little bit more about

3:21

why you you argue Zionism as an ideology its logical outcome is what we see today

3:28

in Gaza the Israeli Palestinian conflict was made in

3:33

Britain and the current war in Gaza is a direct consequence of the

3:41

Balfur declaration of 1917 because during the towards the end

3:49

of the first world war Britain allied itself with the Zionist movement

3:57

um and Zionism is a settler colonial movement its ultimate aim was to

4:07

establish an independent Jewish state in Palestine but the word Jewish state

4:16

would have uh provoked opposition and therefore the Zionists didn’t talk about

4:22

a Jewish state but a national home for the Jewish people and Britain went along

4:29

with it um and supported the Zionist

4:37

movement and um the Zionist movement was a settler

4:43

colonial movement the aim was to take over the land for a

4:51

Jewish state and the logic of settler colonialism is the elimination of the

4:58

natives so this was the logic and um um

5:04

we have seen the implementation of this logic over the last century and this

5:12

process has reached its climax in the war in Gaza where the aim is the ethnic

5:19

cleansing of the whole of the uh enclave noam Chomsky once

5:28

said that settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of

5:40

imperialism the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism and for the last century the

5:48

Palestinians have been at the receiving end of Zionist settler colonialism on

5:55

the one hand and western imperialism on the other hand first under Britain and

6:03

uh then later under uh America and once again we see the climax of American

6:13

imperialism supporting Zionist settler colonialism in the person of Donald

6:19

Trump um many Israeli leaders over the decades especially those of the more

6:24

liberal or socialist persuasions have rhetorically talked about a Palestinian

6:30

state a country within which uh Palestinians could live u uh separately

6:36

or with uh Israelis um and they’ve talked about limited Palestinian

6:42

sovereignty um do you believe from the outset the Israeli settler colonial

6:48

project as you as you call it uh had no intent uh in in um uh in giving some of

6:55

this land uh to the Palestinians uh there were some liberal Zionist Jews

7:02

like the philosopher Martin Bubber who advocated a bational state because um

7:10

there were two nationalities uh Palestinians and Jews uh and they had

7:17

to live together so uh in the n in the inter war period there was this movement

7:24

for a bational state and Hana arand was a critic of zionism because it was

7:31

ethnosentric and she support in an article in 1943 that she published uh

7:38

she advocated a bational state for Arabs uh and Jews so there were always liberal

7:46

Jews progressive Jews who advocated um a bational

7:52

state but the leaders of the Zionist movement were single-minded

8:00

um nationalists Jewish nationalists take Benorian for example

8:05

the first prime minister he was a socialist the ruling party was Mapai a

8:11

socialist party but if there was any conflict between socialism and

8:17

nationalism nationalism always triumphs so the Zionist movement was a

8:23

nationalist uh project and um uh we have

8:29

to distinguish between the rhetoric of the Zionist founding fathers and the

8:35

actual practice on the ground they spoke about universal values like

8:42

freedom and democracy and equality uh but

8:49

the in actual practice with the help of the Balffor

8:54

declaration the Zionist movement embarked on the systematic takeover of the whole of Palestine so it was

9:01

ruthless and uncompromising and there was a huge gap between Zionist rhetoric and the reality

9:09

of the Zionist movement treatment of the Palestinians on the ground and the

9:14

founding fathers filled this gap with hamburg and hypocrisy so my answer to

9:20

your question is that there was never any intention serious intention to share

9:25

the land with the Palestinians [Music]

9:40

fore foreign foreign

10:02

thanks for vetting mal to build our school to give us the hope today is the

10:07

first day in the school and thanks so much to make us to continue to do new

10:15

successes

10:22

right so to understand this um Zionism as a project was always had as an intent

10:29

to expunge Palestinians from their land to remove Palestinians from their land

10:34

and this was shared by most of the political elites if not all the political elites who subscribe to the

10:41

Zionist ideology is that a a fair way to express express the intent of Zionism

10:48

to achieve a Jewish state

10:54

um in a situation where the great majority were

10:59

Arabs you had to eliminate to remove um the Arabs

11:10

and Uh in the late 1930s there were major debates in the

11:19

Zionist movement about transfer transfer is a polite word for expulsion

11:27

um so there were debates so this was not a foreign idea to Zionism it was one of

11:33

the options that were uh considered but it’s only in

11:41

1948 that um that um ethnic cleansing

11:47

was actually practiced so I’d like to go back please to the

11:54

British mandate in Palestine yes uh and I’d like to go back to the Balfur

12:01

declaration in order to understand what happened subsequently yeah

12:07

um the Balffor Declaration of 1917 was a British pledge to support the

12:15

establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in

12:21

Palestine in 1917 the Arabs were 90% and the Jews

12:28

were 10% and the Jews owned only 2% of the

12:33

land um and yet Britain allocated to the Jewish minority

12:40

national rights a national home and denied um political or national the right to

12:48

self-determination to the Palestinian majority britain only um Britain said

12:54

that it would support a national home for the Jewish people provided it did not compromise the civil and religious

13:04

rights of the what was described as the non-Jewish

13:09

communities in Palestine so the 90% were just marginal insignificant the

13:15

non-Jewish um um communities in Palestine and only the the Jews uh

13:24

mattered and the League of Nations mandate for

13:33

Palestine britain inserted the Balfur declaration into the League of Nations

13:39

mandate uh no one wanted no one asked Britain to it insisted on inserting the

13:44

Malfo declaration so what had been uh uh British promise to the Zionists became

13:52

an international legal obligation um and the British mandate in

13:59

Palestine was unique the other three mand the other three mandates were the

14:04

League of Mand League of Nations mandate for France over Syria and over Lebanon

14:12

and the League of Nations mandate to Britain over Iraq the aim the purpose of these

14:18

mandates was to prepare the people for selfgovernment

14:24

um and to uh hand over power when they were capable of running their own

14:29

affairs but the Palestine mandate was different it was not Britain’s um

14:36

obligation Britain’s uh duty was not to prepare the population of Palestine for

14:43

self-government but to help the establishment of a national home for the Jews in order to bring the Jews from

14:50

Europe to Palestine to take over the country and this is what happened the

14:55

cornerstone of the British mandate in Palestine was to deny democracy until

15:02

the Jews became the majority and this only happened in 1948 during the war as

15:10

a result of the Jewish minority carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Palestine

15:17

um the um three quarters of a million

15:23

Palestinians um became refugees and the name

15:29

Palestine was wiped off the map there is a debate among Israeli historians as to

15:36

whether the ethnic cleansing was the result of a Zionist master plan uh or

15:41

whether it was the result of the war but this is insignificant the outcome was

15:47

the same the outcome was the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and I would argue

15:53

that this was implicit uh uh in the nature of settler

16:00

colonialism this was the logical consequence of settler colonialism

16:05

u professor Shalem I today I want to talk about the role of Britain and America

16:12

um in in um this settler colonial project now all of what you’ve said so

16:17

far about uh Britain’s complicity at the very early stages the Balfur declaration

16:23

how they incorporated that declaration into the League of Nations mandates um

16:28

how they permitted and encouraged uh Jewish migration to to Israel how they

16:35

denied the rights of Palestinians all of that seems to imply that um Britain saw

16:42

the settler colonial project in the same terms as maybe the Zionists saw their

16:48

project as a as a a means to expel Palestinians from from their land i mean

16:54

do you think the early architects of of Balfur and David Lloyd George and you

17:00

know Herbert Samuel did they uh share this uh Zionist zeal maybe to remove

17:06

Palestinians from their land i wouldn’t go as far as to say they share the

17:11

Zionist zeal to remove the Palestinians from their land but this is what they were doing and they knew what they were

17:19

doing uh and Balfuro Lloyd George and Churchill have all said subsequently

17:26

that when they talked about a national home for the Jews they meant a state so

17:31

there was no doubt um uh about about that and um um Balffor the Balffor

17:42

Declaration was a classic colonial document because it completely

17:48

disregarded the rights uh and the aspirations of the majority of the

17:55

people so they were all old-fashioned British colonialists and Zionist colonialism

18:02

fitted in with the world view uh and there was also a racist element behind

18:10

British policy in Palestine and that is they look down on Arabs as as

18:18

inferior uh and in

18:24

1937 against the background of the Arab revolt against Britain and its Zionist

18:30

protetées there was the Peel Commission of Inquiry and Churchill gave evidence to

18:37

the commission and Churchill said referring to the Palestinians

18:45

uh just because a dog has lived a long time in

18:50

the manger doesn’t give the dog a right over the manger yeah and I think that he

18:58

said I think that the Arabs should make way

19:04

for a better race a wiser race a worldwide uh w a worldwise race um they

19:14

they should make way for them for the Jews so you couldn’t have a most stark

19:20

example of the racism of the British um ruling

19:25

elite and this famous speech by um

19:30

famous uh testimony by Churchill is shocking

19:36

um but it’s not surprising because racism and uh imperialism always went

19:43

hand in hand together why do you think uh the project of Israel was so important to Britain in in those early

19:51

days what is it about Israel and its its geography and where it sits um um and

19:58

and its its importance to uh the British Empire at the time uh so we have to go

20:04

back to uh the first world war and Britain had already made

20:12

uh an agreement with Hussein the Sharif of Mecca in

20:19

1915 that um if he led a revolt against

20:25

the Ottoman Empire at the end of the war Britain would help create an independent

20:32

Arab kingdom under his rule this and then in

20:38

1916 Britain signed a secret agreement with France the Sykes Pico agreement

20:45

dividing the Middle East into spheres of influence and in 1917 Britain issued the

20:52

Basel Declaration which wasn’t secret to the public decoration promising

20:58

um to turn Palestine into a Jewish um

21:04

homeland britain was fighting a war and

21:10

uh the war wasn’t going well in 1917 uh and the motive for issuing the

21:17

Balfur declaration was to acquire

21:22

um an ally in Palestine so that Britain would have a solid ally and control over

21:29

Palestine through the Jewish movement and Lloyd George was anti- French he

21:38

became prime minister in December 1916 and he reneged on the Sykes Pico

21:46

agreement because he wanted Britain to control the access to the Sewish Canal

21:53

and also to block any French influence south of Syria and Lebanon south of the

22:00

Levant so there were imperial um uh called imperial considerations

22:06

that led him mistakenly in my opinion to side with the Zionist movement when the

22:13

natural allies for Britain were the Arabs um can you talk a little bit about the

22:20

role of Sir Herbert um Samuel uh the first high commissioner of uh of

22:26

Palestine and in particular how the demographics of um of this land uh

22:34

changed between the mandate and 1948

22:40

um Sir Herbert Samuel was a Jew and a

22:45

Zionist and he was the first British high commissioner to

22:52

Palestine so his role was crucial in setting the tone for what was to come

22:59

later and uh Sir Herbert Samuel was one of the

23:05

one of the first people to urge the British government to support

23:10

Zionism in a paper he wrote in 1915 and then he was appointed as high

23:18

commissioner uh in Palestine and um he was completely

23:27

one-sided and gave preference reference very overtly to the Zionist

23:35

movement so he helped the Jews to create national institutions the institutions of a state

23:43

in the making and he discouraged and created problems for the Palestinians

23:51

uh in doing the same so he approved and supported a Jewish agency to represent

23:58

the issue of the Jewish community in Palestine but he didn’t do anything similar for the um Palestinians and he

24:07

did choose Hajamin Al Husini as the Grand Mui of Jerusalem that’s when the

24:14

British thought that Hajjamin would be a stoogge that um but when he turned out

24:20

to be a serious Palestinian nationalist he fell out with them and they chased him out of the country in 1937

24:30

but Herbert Samuel um uh

24:37

betrayed the mandate because the mandate um the League of Nations mandate said

24:44

that the mandate for Palestine is um

24:52

um is a great trust of civilization and he betrayed their trust by abandoning

24:59

the Palestinians and the and denying their rights and this manifested itself

25:05

more concretely in two areas one was Zionist land purchases which he

25:13

facilitated um against Arab opposition but also he

25:20

facilitated and permitted um massive immigration of Jews from

25:27

Europe to Palestine uh at first there was a trickle of Jews

25:32

to Palestine but after the Nazi party was to power in in Germany in

25:40

1933 then the pace of immigration increased um very

25:47

dramatically and this led to the Arab outbreak of the Arab revolt in

25:53

1936 which lasted 3 years and the British army um um suppressed the Arab

26:02

revolt with the utmost brutality and committed a lot of serious war crimes in

26:09

suppressing the revolt and I would argue that the way in

26:16

which Britain crushed the Palestinian society decimated Palestinian society

26:21

and crush the Palestinian par military forces uh in the late

26:26

1930s was the real reason for the loss of Palestine as opposed to the conventional

26:33

wisdom that Palestine was lost in the late 1940s yeah so Britain played a

26:39

crucial role in um promoting and helping

26:45

the Zionists and curbing um and

26:50

restricting the um uh uh influence of

26:55

the Palestinians and also denying democracy to the Palestinians and this

27:01

policy was set in motion by Sir Herbert Samuel uh in your uh in your book you

27:08

discuss uh Sir Herbert Samuel and uh how they crushed the Arab revote and you’ve

27:14

just mentioned there that in 1936 for 3 years there was a very brutal crackdown

27:20

of of Arabs and uh I just wonder whether um a lessons were learned or models were

27:27

built for the future Zionist state there because of course the British were um

27:33

ruthless in in uh in clamping down on on um

27:38

Palestinians at that time i mean can you talk to you know that uh that model

27:43

between the uh the British and and you know the future Zionist state a very

27:50

important link was forged between

27:56

um the British and the Zionist

28:01

paramilitary forces during the Arab revolt right um and Britain armed the

28:09

Hagana the self-defense uh organization of the Yeshu uh uh armed

28:16

the Hagana and trained the Hagana and there was a particularly

28:23

um significant British officer called Odd

28:29

Wingate and he was a religious fanatic a religious Christian

28:36

Zionist and uh a very unconventional soldier and he trained the Zionist the

28:44

the night squads of the Hagana uh and so Britain

28:52

um conveyed and trained the Zionist paramilitary forces in methods of real

29:00

brutality uh and including um summary executions

29:06

arbitrary arrests um detention without trial uh curfews of whole villages the

29:15

burning of and destroying the houses of rebel Um and also Britain hurt civilians not

29:25

just the rebels but civilians to extract information for them

29:32

uh villages from which rebels emerge

29:37

um would be um put under curfew and then civilians

29:45

would be tortured by the British in order to extract information so you

29:51

could say that the Zanis learned the really brutal uh tricks and also um the

29:59

refu the lack of distinction between combatants and non-combatants from the

30:05

British and that’s what Israel has been doing throughout its history and this

30:10

failure to protect civilians has reached again it reached climax in the genocide

30:18

in Gaza which is directed the war in Gaza is directed not just at Hamas but

30:25

at the entire civilian population of Gaza so yes there is a continuity

30:31

between British imperial brutality and the brutality of um Zionist imperialism

30:37

professor Shalom I mean that’s very fascinating when you talk about uh the role of Britain in in the period before

30:45

1948 but there was a there was a point after the Second World War where Britain fell out uh with the Zionist movement or

30:52

at least it seems like they fell out with the Zionist movement uh and in fact there were series of terrorist attacks

30:59

against uh Britain in in in Palestine in Jerusalem culminating in the uh in the

31:06

King David hotel uh bombings um uh can you untangle these events for me like

31:12

what led to uh this apparent uh friction between Britain on the one hand and the

31:19

Zionist movement and why did Britain in a way it seems like at least from the

31:25

books from the history books it it wanted to just wipe its its hands of of this crisis and and move on move away

31:32

from u from from Palestine Israel throughout the interwar period there

31:39

was some tension between uh the Zionist leaders and and

31:47

Britain because uh the Zionists were very ambitious

31:54

um and uh they wanted more and more land

31:59

and to bring more and more uh Jews and in the process they were alienating

32:05

uh the Palestinians and there were many commissions of inquiry producing reports

32:12

about what Britain should do and

32:18

the Zionists were saying to Britain you you promised us a state right and now

32:25

now we are going back on your promise and the British would reply no we didn’t

32:31

promise you a state we promised you a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine and we’ve fulfilled our

32:38

promise uh uh to you but the real change

32:43

in British policy happened in 1939

32:48

uh with the approach of the second world war when Britain was in a very weak

32:54

position germany had rearmed and Britain needed Arab goodwill so that was the

33:02

motive for the retreat from the mandate and in

33:08

1939 Britain issued the white paper uh which went a long way towards meeting

33:16

Palestinian demands it suggested uh that

33:21

that there would be restrictions on Jewish immigration to

33:26

Palestine and restrictions on uh land purchases and after 10 years there would

33:34

be a referendum to decide the fate of Palestine and this was a very good

33:41

proposal by Britain um but Hajamin al-H

33:46

Husini rejected it and he made a colossal error because by this time he

33:54

didn’t trust the British but uh if he had been wiser he would have accepted

33:59

this and this would have been a death sentence to the issue and this is how the Zionist leaders saw it that Britain

34:07

has turned against them and had abandoned them but Benorian was a very

34:13

very smart politician and he came up with a slogan we we’ll fight the war as

34:21

if there is no white paper and we’ll fight the white paper as if there is no

34:27

war in other words Britain is no longer on our side but we will continue with

34:33

our project of building a state building our military forces and after the end of

34:40

uh the war there was um

34:46

insurgency against Britain uh particularly

34:52

by the national military organization

34:57

commanded by Manahim Begin which was a a right-wing paramilitary organization of

35:03

the followers of the Jabotinski the spiritual father of the Israeli right

35:10

and there was another group a smaller group called um the Stern Gang well they

35:17

they didn’t call themselves the Stern gang um they call themselves the fighters for the freedom of uh

35:25

Israel and uh the Stern gang assassinated Lord Mo Lord Moine who was

35:32

a personal friend of Churchill who was the high commissioner in Egypt and in

35:40

1948 the Stern gang ass assassinated Count Bernard the UN um mediator in the

35:48

in the uh conflict so um both the Hagana and the paramil other

35:57

paramilitary groups were now fighting the British in order to gain

36:04

independence and they called the 1948 war uh the war of

36:10

independence and uh as you pointed out in there was a particularly important um

36:17

event in this process of uh alienation between the Zionists and Britain and

36:24

that was the bombing of the King David Hotel in

36:30

1946 because the King David Hotel was the head headquarters of the British

36:36

forces in the whole Middle East and uh the Irun bombed it uh and 92 British

36:46

officials and officers were killed and after that Britain really didn’t have

36:53

the stomach to continue and what happened was that the cost of imperial

37:00

policing was escalating and Britain had something like 100,000 troops in

37:07

Palestine and Britain was in economic um was economically bankrupt after the

37:15

war so it needed to scale down its expenditure uh and um that was the

37:24

situation in 1948 uh and by this time the Zionist

37:33

thought of Britain as the enemy and the Zionist case against Britain during this

37:40

period is that after the UN partition res after the UN voted for the partition

37:48

of Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state in 1947 Britain armed and incited its Arab

37:59

um allies to invade Palestine upon expiry of the mandate and strangle the

38:06

Jewish state at birth this was the charge but it’s completely um baseless

38:13

because Britain’s aim towards the end of the mandate was not to prevent the birth of a Jewish state but to pre prevent the

38:20

birth of a Palestinian state because in British eyes a Palestinian state was

38:28

synonymous with a MUI state and the MUI was a renegade so what Britain did

38:36

behind the scenes during this critical period was to support its um client King

38:45

Abdullah of Jordan to to support his bid to capture the West Bank the heartland

38:52

of what was going to be the Palestinian state and then annex it to his kingdom

38:57

so there is a case against Britain during the twilight of the British mandate in Palestine but it’s not that

39:04

he tried to prevent the birth of a Jewish state but that it colluded with

39:09

King Abdullah of Jordan in aborting the birth of a Palestinian state and this is

39:17

I elaborate this thesis at great length in a book that I published in 1988 under the title Collusion Across

39:25

the Jordan King Abdullah the Zionist movement and the partition of Palestine

39:32

and I advance the main um thesis that I advance is

39:40

that by 1947 King Abdullah and the Jewish agency

39:46

had reached a tacit agreement to divide Palestine among themselves at the

39:52

expense of the Palestinians and the subsidiary um argument is that Britain knew and

40:01

approved the collusion across the Jordan so um there is an Arabic

40:09

saying something that starts crooked remains crooked and this the project

40:19

um started by the Balfur declaration settler colonialism was crooked to begin

40:27

with and it remained crooked to the very end when we’ve turned to the Oslo

40:33

Accords um you dedicate a lot of your book to Oslo and the Oslo process and

40:39

what led to uh the Camp David uh agreement

40:44

uh between uh the Israelis and Arafat um and you argue that Oslo was not really a

40:51

genuine peace process or a peace effort but more a means by which Israel could

40:56

continue and maintain its dominance um explain that to me please uh the Oslo

41:02

Accord was signed uh in September

41:07

1993 between the PLO and the government of

41:13

Israel uh and this was a historic moment

41:19

uh a historic agreement between the two conflicting national

41:24

movements and the deal was clinched with a hesitant handshake between Yasa Arafat

41:32

and its hakrabin in the white

41:37

house um I was euphoric at the time of

41:43

Oslo i thought this was the real deal this is

41:48

the beginning of a solution of the conflict

41:53

um and I realized that the Oslo Accord had

42:00

many limitations and shortcomings but I believe that it’d be the be a step in

42:05

the right direction and it would set in motion a process

42:12

of slow controlled gradual Israeli withdrawal from the occupied

42:20

territories and at the end of the

42:25

process there would be a Palestinian state and I was wrong i was wrong because the

42:34

process was not um irreversible and when Rabbin was

42:41

assassinated and the Li could came back to power in 1996 under the leadership of Benjamin

42:50

Netanyahu the Li could set about dismantling the Oslo peace um accord

43:01

so Oslo didn’t turn out to be um a step

43:06

on the road to statehood for the Palestinians it turned out to be a track

43:11

their position today is much much worse than it was before um Oslo but uh

43:22

in this agreement is really really significant yeah because the PLO used to

43:30

have a maximalist program they wanted a Palestinian state the liberation of

43:37

Palestine but it gradually moderated its uh political agenda and by signing the

43:45

Oslo Accord what it said in uh reality

43:51

is that well it said explicitly it was giving up its claim

43:58

to 78% of historic Palestine because

44:06

uh after the 1948 war Israel ended up with 78% % of historic Palestine

44:16

everything except the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem by

44:22

signing the Oslo Accord the Palestinian the PLO agreed gave up its claim to

44:31

four-fifths of historic Palestine in the hope of getting

44:36

uh an independence an independent state on the remaining fifth

44:42

so um it was that moderate it was that reasonable in its demands it was

44:51

unreasonably reasonable and yet it didn’t get even that bare minimum that

44:57

it expected to um to gain by signing the Oslo peace accord in answer to that

45:05

question you you mentioned that Likood uh that came back to power in the late

45:11

80s they undid uh the Oslo Accords in effect undermined it but but I remember

45:18

reading in in in one of your chapters that even Rabbine did not seem to be

45:23

very sincere with uh the idea of a Palestinian state and settler activity

45:29

continued if not intensified during that period where he professed to to show

45:34

commitment towards a Palestinian entity i mean is that explain that idea to me

45:41

the Labour Party and Rabinu was typical of the Labor

45:47

Party had a hashamite a Jordanian orientation uh and there was a long

45:54

history of secret um dialogue across the battle lines between King Hussein and

46:01

Israeli uh officials but after June

46:07

1967 Israel captured the West Bank um and

46:14

Gaza uh and King Hussein offered Israel total peace for total

46:21

withdrawal but by this time um the Labor Party had become more nationalistic the

46:29

ideology of greater Israel gained ground and um so there was no agreement with

46:38

King Hussein uh of Jordan but there was a fundamental difference between Labor

46:45

and Liood labor believed in the partition of Palestine preferably with

46:52

the Hashemites of Jordan but also possibly with the Palestinians

46:58

and that was the meaning of the Oslo whereas the liud always claimed

47:04

Jewish sovereignty over the whole of um the historic homeland over the whole of

47:11

Aritz Israel the liquor denied either Jordanian or Palestinian

47:18

uh right to to sovereignty over the West Bank

47:23

so the logic of the Oslo Accord was the

47:29

partition of Palestine between Israel and the PLO and the PLO would get less

47:35

than a a fifth because originally it was Palestinian self-government only uh in

47:42

Gaza and the city of Jericho so it wasn’t even the whole of the West Bank

47:49

so the logic was partition of the land and the liquid was always critical of

47:57

the Oslo Accord and when they got back into power they systematically dismantled the Oslo Accord and

48:05

reasserted the claim to Jewish sovereignty over the whole of the land

48:10

of Israel when the genocide in Gaza began I vowed we would never let those

48:16

responsible get away with this silence was complicity in a world that wants us

48:21

to remain flaccid a world that wants us to be concerned more about our immediate

48:26

lives and interests the system buys our souls in return for acquiescence with

48:32

their empire building project we at the thinking Muslim set about

48:38

changing the narrative and in the process with Allah’s baraka we galvanized our communities to confront

48:45

these political elites and send them a clear message in elections on both sides

48:50

of the Atlantic we brought communities together and led the way in countering

48:56

their pericious agenda such is the power of this new

49:02

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50:02

Allah subhana wa tala accept from all of

50:08

us can I ask you about the PLO and the Palestinian Authority now since um uh

50:14

the Oslo Accords and and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority uh I think many have

50:21

criticized uh that authority for colluding with the Israelis for uh

50:27

providing uh security in you know in many ways for for the state of Israel

50:32

and aiding sometimes Israeli expansionism or at least um um allowing

50:38

the Israelis a gateway into into um clamping down on the resistance um I

50:43

mean what led a um a you know a popular

50:48

resistance movement that had broad appeal what led it to a a point where uh

50:54

it was willing to make such deep compromises uh with u with Israel but also with the

51:00

international community yasa Arafat when he signed the Oslo Accord thought it’s

51:06

the beginning of a process of reconciliation that eventually would lead to full independence

51:15

um but it was not to be because of the asymmetry of power uh between the two

51:21

sides israel was too strong and the Palestinians too weak and they had no

51:27

leverage in the negotiations so all the agreements specific agreements following

51:34

the Oslo Accord were the result of negotiations between two unequal parties

51:41

and they reflected the advantage they’re always to the advantage of Israel

51:47

including the economic aspects of the uh relationship arafat was the national

51:54

leader who had credibility with all branches of the Palestinian family but

51:59

Amu Bazan is only the president of the Palestinian uh

52:05

authority um and um the Palestinian Authority is corrupt

52:13

and incompetent uh and um

52:19

it’s seen as by Palestinians as a subcontractor for Israeli security

52:27

and this is not an unfair comment because 40% of the budget of the Palestinian

52:34

Authority uh goes on security but it’s not

52:40

security for the Palestinians it’s security for Israel

52:45

um and the Palestinians on the West Bank enjoy no security and no protection

52:52

whatsoever they have the militant and violent settlers and they’re armed they

53:00

have the border police which is very brutal as well they have the police and

53:07

the army on their side against completely defenseless um Palestinians

53:13

that’s why the Palestinian Authority doesn’t enjoy legitimacy um Abu Mazen uh the president

53:23

um is a figurehead he’s in his late 80s he doesn’t enjoy any

53:30

legitimacy and the last Palestinian election happened in January 2006

53:38

and it was an election not just in Gaza but in Gaza and the West Bank and Hamas

53:47

the Islamic resistance movement won a clear majority in what was a fair and

53:54

free uh election and Hamas proceeded to

54:03

form uh a government and Israel refused to

54:09

recognize this government israel resorted to economic warfare to undermine that government and the United

54:17

States and European Union sided with Israel in undermining and plotting the

54:23

downfall of that government there was a plot to support Fata in driving Hamas

54:30

out of power so Hamas preempted a Fata plot by seizing power in

54:37

Gaza and uh since then the two branches

54:42

of the Palestinian family have remained fir firmly divided firmly separate with

54:49

Israel not allowing any contact between between them why did Hamas win a

54:56

majority it is because it represented resistance to the occupation whereas the

55:03

Palestinian Authority had ceased to was a collaborationist

55:08

uh body it was not posing any resistance to Israel that’s why Hamas won a clear

55:16

majority um and if there was an election

55:23

today Hamas would win that election but paradoxically because Hamas is seen as

55:30

responsible for the destruction of Gaza it has less it has lost support in

55:37

Gaza but it had gained support on the West Bank because it’s the only

55:42

Palestinian body that represents resistance to the occupation there is a

55:48

belief that the Palestinians were the reason behind the failure of of Oslo um

55:53

how do you understand um uh its failure there are two explanations for the

56:00

failure of the Oslo peace process one is the official Israeli narrative which

56:06

says that the process failed because the

56:12

uh Palestinians um return to violence

56:20

uh and that the second inifer

56:28

um and um and right-wing Israelis

56:33

said that Oslo was a mistake because the Palestinians did not mean it they did

56:42

not mean reconciliation but they were proceeding with the theory of the stages and the

56:49

theory of the stages says that you gain uh territory not in one go but bit by

56:56

bit and you keep pressing for more and more so you dismantle you fight Zionism

57:04

and you dismantle Zionism not in one battle but in stages um and therefore Oslo was a

57:13

mistake um and Arafat is a liar and

57:19

Arafat is the one who made a strategic choice to return to violence in the

57:24

second inifada and that’s why the process failed i totally totally reject

57:30

this explanation as selfserving my explanation um for the failure of the

57:37

Oslo peace process is that uh Israel

57:44

under the liquood reaged on its side of the

57:50

deal that’s why the process broke down

57:55

uh and the charges against Arafat are not

58:03

substantiated people forget that in the first year after the um Oslo Accord was

58:10

signed there was very close security cooperation between the two sides and

58:16

terrorism was virtually zero so the Palestinian authority under

58:22

Arafat and his successor was a genuine partner for

58:28

peace um it’s the change happened on the Israeli

58:33

side another charge against Arafad is that he instigated the second Inifada in

58:41

2000 not true yeah um it’s uh Ariel

58:48

Chaon the leader of the Liku the leader of the opposition who in October 2000

58:54

stage a walkabout in um the old city of Jerusalem with the intention of

59:01

provoking violence there are some riots some stones throwing but it’s Israel

59:07

which immediately escalated the use of force and um uh so and then they claimed

59:16

that Arafat planned the second antifada he didn’t he was taken by surprise by

59:22

events on the on the ground so uh the Palestinian Authority under Arafat and

59:28

under Abu Mazan were genuine partners on the road to peace it’s Israel which

59:34

reade agreements and returned to brute brutal repression and all this time

59:42

under labor and liquood settlements were expand expanding uh land grabbing and

59:50

peacemaking don’t go together it’s one or the other and if you look at the record it’s quite clear that it’s Israel

59:58

uh which has chosen land over peace how do you assess the role of America during

1:00:04

this period um you know was it really a neutral arbiter in in this peace process

1:00:10

of Oslo and beyond america likes to present itself as an honest broker i say

1:00:18

America was never an honest broker america is a dishonest

1:00:23

broker because America is Israel’s lawyer

1:00:29

uh and you can’t be both a lawyer and an honest broker and an arbiter so America

1:00:35

was always Israel’s not always but at least since 1967 under Eisenhower

1:00:44

uh during the um uh Suez war in 1956 America didn’t take Israel’s side

1:00:51

america denounced the attack by Israel France and Britain on Egypt and

1:00:59

Eisenhower gave Benuan an ultimatum to withdraw from Sinai unilaterally and

1:01:07

immediately and unconditionally but he’s the only American president who

1:01:13

stood up for Israel or who stood up uh to Israel and used American leverage to

1:01:19

force Israel to withdraw since 1967

1:01:25

um all American presidents have not all of them there are some exceptions but

1:01:33

since 1967 the special relationship between America and Israel deepened and America

1:01:41

arrogated to itself the the role of a

1:01:46

monopoly over the diplomacy surrounding the Arab-Israeli conflict that role

1:01:52

belongs to the United Nations but um uh

1:01:57

Brit America sidelined the UN sideline the Soviet Union during the cold war

1:02:06

sidelined European Union and uh arrogated to itself a monopoly over the

1:02:13

peace the so-called peace process but it failed to push Israel into a settlement

1:02:21

[Music] um [Music] America

1:02:28

continued to give Israel economic military and diplomatic support

1:02:38

uh Obama signed an agreement with Israel

1:02:46

um in his last year in office which gives Israel $3.8 billion in military aid every

1:02:55

year um and America uses regularly the victor in the

1:03:04

Security Council to defeat resolutions that are not to Israel’s liking and in

1:03:11

the current war in Gaza America defeat used the veto three times to defeat

1:03:17

ceasefire um uh resolutions so the trouble with American support for

1:03:25

Israel is that it is unconditional that means that Israel

1:03:32

doesn’t have to fulfill any conditions to continue to enjoy American

1:03:39

um military and diplomatic support so um

1:03:46

America is not part of the solution it’s not an honest broker it’s done nothing

1:03:52

to bring about a two-state uh solution

1:03:58

uh America is part of the problem because of the unlimited support that it

1:04:04

gives uh Israel and Israel is largely responsible for

1:04:13

um the conflict for the pro uh continuation of the conflict because of

1:04:19

its expansionism and because of its diplomatic intransigence

1:04:25

but I blame America as well for the state of affairs because America has

1:04:31

done nothing to restrain Israel or to push Israel into a states two-state

1:04:38

solution it’s become fashionable to say that the two-state solution is dead

1:04:44

because of Israeli expansionism and ethnic cleansing

1:04:49

i say the um two-state of solution was never born

1:04:57

because since 1967 no Israeli government has offered a

1:05:03

a plan for a Palestinian state that even the most moderate Palestinian leader

1:05:09

could accept first secondly America talks keeps

1:05:16

talking about a two-state solution uh but he’s never done anything to bring it

1:05:22

about so it’s not an honest broker it’s a dishonest broker and and uh uh turning

1:05:30

to the current um Joe Biden uh Biden in your book uh you discuss how Biden gave

1:05:38

the green light to Israel to commit uh this horrendous genocide in in Gaza um

1:05:45

the Democrats to today will will argue that uh Biden held back the worst

1:05:51

impulses and restrained Netanyahu and and prevented him from

1:05:56

doing worse in what what u uh what he ended up doing in in Gaza how do you

1:06:02

assess uh Joe Biden’s presidency in Israel joe

1:06:08

Biden described himself as a

1:06:14

Zionist and he once said that if Israel didn’t exist it would have to be

1:06:22

invented because it’s crucial for American security

1:06:27

uh Biden has been an ardent supporter of Israel throughout his long political

1:06:35

career he’s always been very close to Apac he’s received a lot of money from

1:06:42

AAP for his um political campaigns uh for his elections um

1:06:50

and he this is important he was opposed to

1:06:58

attaching any conditions to American aid to Israel he opposed conditionality in

1:07:05

principle he was vice president under Obama for eight years and he consistently opposed

1:07:13

attaching any conditions to American aid for

1:07:19

Israel um and there and in the crisis in

1:07:27

Gaza he regarded the the defeat of Hamas

1:07:33

not just as an Israeli interest but as an American strategic

1:07:39

um interest so he didn’t really restrain

1:07:45

Israel except in words empty words he would occasionally say

1:07:51

Israel has gone too far he would sometimes say uh Israel Israel is using

1:07:58

force indiscriminately uh Israel must reduce the number of civilian casualties

1:08:09

but he never said stop the massacre stop the

1:08:17

carnage or I am going to stop the flow of American

1:08:23

uh arms to Israel biden is the only person who could have stopped that war in its tracks by

1:08:31

threatening to stop arm supplies and the Israeli army couldn’t have continued for

1:08:38

uh very long without American constant

1:08:44

resupply during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the siege of

1:08:53

Beirut Ronald Reagan was president he was very emotional he saw a picture of a

1:09:00

little girl who had lost um an arm and he phoned Manahim begging and he said

1:09:11

uh the um the brutality must stop the killing

1:09:19

of civilian sm or it would have consequences for

1:09:25

Israeli American relations and 20 minutes later uh begging phoned him and

1:09:31

he said I’d given the order to stop the firing in uh

1:09:36

Beirut uh Biden could have done that but he never did that he allowed Netanyahu to

1:09:45

humiliate him he used the American veto to defeat

1:09:51

ceasefire resolutions how can you vote for against a ceasefire resolution when

1:09:56

there is a brutal war going on and genocide uh but he used the

1:10:03

veto and once in last May last May

1:10:09

uh Biden announced a ceasefire plan and he said it was an Israeli plan and it

1:10:15

was israel had agreed to this plan and he launched it and immediately Netanyahu

1:10:23

said it was a non-starter with a deliberate aim of

1:10:28

humiliating um Biden but that Biden did nothing and

1:10:33

then um a ceasefire didn’t come into effect until many many months later so a

1:10:41

lot of civilians could have been spared a lot of destruction could have been avoided if if um uh Biden had used

1:10:51

leverage to impose that ceasefire that Israel had agre had agreed to so So

1:10:58

Biden um is the proof that American policy

1:11:06

doesn’t work with Israel yeah um there is the argument that if you

1:11:12

show commitment to Israel you show the Israelis that you are on their side they would be more flexible but there is no

1:11:19

evidence israelis just take all the American um support that they can get

1:11:26

and they take it for granted uh and um that is one reason why this war wasn’t

1:11:35

brought to an end much much earlier and why it continues today um so it

1:11:41

continues today but there was a a period where we did have a ceasefire and uh

1:11:48

many argue that ceasefire was brokered really by the uh Trump’s insistence steve Wickoff uh went to Netanyahu and

1:11:55

gave him an ultimatum and so there was a period where America was using its leverage at least that’s the that’s the

1:12:03

the popular conversation uh that period seems to have lapsed and um if anything

1:12:09

we’ve now got a an extremely uh an extreme American administration that is

1:12:15

willing to not only uh continue the genocide but also we’ve got these the

1:12:20

illusions of of um of Trump’s Riviera i mean how do you uh understand uh Trump’s

1:12:28

diplomacy to date trump’s election

1:12:36

um marked a turning point in the

1:12:41

American position on Gaza and

1:12:46

Trump in the month before his inauguration as you say put pressure on

1:12:52

Israel to agree to um a ceasefire

1:12:59

but it wasn’t a ceasefire that Israel really believed in because it was in

1:13:07

three stages stage one was uh to a ceasefire uh and this this happened and

1:13:15

there was a relief and the resumption of humanitarian aid to Gaza that stage two

1:13:22

was going to involve Israeli withdrawal from Gaza total Israeli withdrawal um from

1:13:31

Gaza and Netanyahu never intended to proceed to stage two and stage three was

1:13:39

going to be negotiations about the future governance of Gaza and Netanyahu

1:13:44

wouldn’t agree to any discussions about the day uh after

1:13:51

And when [Music]

1:13:59

uh Israel agreed to the ceasefire Betsal no

1:14:07

sorry Itamama Beng the leader of the farright

1:14:14

Jewish power party resigned he resigned over the ceasefire

1:14:20

and he said he’d only rejoin the government if the fighting continu was

1:14:26

resumed it’s absurd but that was the reality and Betel Smrich the leader of

1:14:34

religious Zionism said if the ceasefire

1:14:42

continues then he will uh quit the government and bring down the government

1:14:48

so he would only stay if the fighting was resumed and now that the fighting

1:14:55

that Israel violated the ceasefire um Smottridge stays and uh Ben Greer has

1:15:03

come back to the government so this is a government that cannot agree to a ceasefire it can only agree uh there is

1:15:10

only a consensus to continue the war in Gaza now let’s go back to

1:15:18

Trump biden was mildly critical of Israel but he didn’t do anything

1:15:25

effective to restrain Israel whereas um and

1:15:31

also he said that the people of Gaza must not be uh expelled they must stay

1:15:38

remain in Gaza with along comes Trump and he reverses this American policy and

1:15:46

he supports the agenda of the Israeli right and of Netanyahu to ethnically cleans Gaza and

1:15:54

in the famous speech he said Gaza is a bomb site he didn’t say who turned it

1:16:00

into a bomb site and a wasteland and he said the people of Gaza should move

1:16:05

elsewhere they should move to Jordan or Egypt

1:16:10

um and the place needs to be cleaned up that’s what he said and note the imperial hubris of

1:16:18

this man treating the Palestinians as if they were rubbish to be to be disposed of but

1:16:28

that’s not just rhetoric um there is active American pressure on

1:16:38

Egypt and on Jordan to take some of the

1:16:43

population uh from Gaza and one thing is clear when Israel expels Palestinians

1:16:50

from the Palestinian territories it never allows them to come back so if Trump managed to find a temporary

1:16:56

solution for moving the people of Gaza uh they will never go back and the idea

1:17:03

that Gaza could be turned into a real estate asset for America and a Riviera

1:17:11

um is just completely uh absurd and it reminds me of what the

1:17:17

Israelis said after the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in

1:17:24

2005 uh they said they are giving the people of Gaza a chance to turn their

1:17:32

enclaves into the Singapore of the uh Middle

1:17:38

East but they gave them no chance nothing of the kind they impose a a

1:17:44

blockade on them which had been in force for the last 17 years and continues now

1:17:51

today uh so both the Israeli

1:17:57

claims Israel has treated Gaza as a settler colonial state and now the uh

1:18:06

elements of settler colonialism are back in action because

1:18:11

Netanyahu and the extreme right-wing of his um government coalition

1:18:19

government want not just um the ethnic cleansing of Gaza they

1:18:27

want to take back the land uh as a for real estate that’s the

1:18:34

reality and there was a there was a conference about recently in Gaza and

1:18:41

some of the ministers in the government attended this government this uh uh

1:18:47

conference and Trump supports this agenda of the extreme right so now the

1:18:53

Palestinians are in a very difficult situation because they are the victims

1:18:58

of Zionist settler colonialism on the one hand and a the most vicious form of

1:19:05

American imperialism on the other professor Schm I have one last question for you uh you’ve called your book uh

1:19:12

genocide in Gaza uh of course the British government uh Sakir Stalmer Kst Starmer and David Lammy uh the foreign

1:19:19

secretary refused to use the term genocide because uh they suggest um it

1:19:25

it requires a court of law before one can designate a conflict to be a a

1:19:32

genocide um c can you give me your your thoughts about the general approach of

1:19:38

the current British government the Labor government in Britain and why they refuse to uh censure even lightly the

1:19:46

Israeli state both Star and Lami

1:19:53

uh are supporters of Israel very strong supporters of Israel

1:20:02

um and uh

1:20:07

the Labor Party won the last election with a manifesto and the manifesto said

1:20:16

if Labor gets into power we will recognize Palestine

1:20:21

but Stalmer who is an unconditional um Zionist his term unconditional

1:20:30

Zionist um uh retreated from this commitment and

1:20:36

now the position the British position is very ambiguous it says we will recognize

1:20:45

Palestine only when the conditions are right but there will never be raim

1:20:51

uh so here you have the basic contradiction

1:20:58

in British policy support for a two-state solution but recognition of

1:21:05

only one side of only Israel and refusal to recognize um

1:21:12

Palestine uh then Sama was asked is Israel um an apartheid state and he said

1:21:21

no Israel is not an apartheid state this flies in the evidence of four

1:21:28

major human rights groups in the last two or three years who issued detailed

1:21:34

reports with detailed evidence all concluding that Israel is an apartheid

1:21:41

state yes indisputable but he disputes that and recently David Lami was asked “Is

1:21:51

Israel guilty of genocide?” And he said “No genocide is a legal term and we have

1:22:00

to wait for a court of for the International Court of Justice to uh

1:22:05

give its ruling on the subject.” But he’s quite wrong he should know better

1:22:11

because he also is human rights lawyer so he should read the

1:22:19

1948 convention on the prevention of genocide and it defines genocide it says

1:22:27

genocide is the intent to destroy in whole or in part a

1:22:35

religious ethnic or racial group the refi what Israel is doing in Gaza

1:22:42

fits the bill it’s indisputably genocide an attempt to destroy um in in whole or

1:22:51

in part the Palestinian population of Gaza and also on the West Bank uh but I

1:22:59

won’t go into the West Bank at the moment just look at Gaza what Israel has

1:23:04

done it’s um killed over 50 million 50,000 people including about 18,000

1:23:14

children so it’s a war on children and killing children is not a form of

1:23:20

self-defense israel has destroyed 80% of the housing and civilian infrastructure

1:23:28

in Gaza 80% israel has forced 2 million out of 3.3

1:23:36

million Gazans to evacuate their homes sometimes more than 10 times and often

1:23:45

when Palestinians obey the orders to move to what the Israelis describe as a

1:23:50

safe zone then they get attacked and bombarded from um the air

1:23:58

so what is going on in Gaza is definitely

1:24:03

genocide but there are other sides there is um doicide which is the destruction of

1:24:12

homes there is echoside the destruction of the environment

1:24:18

uh there is an economicide which is a destruction of the economy and Israel

1:24:25

is destroying the means of livelihood within Gaza and preventing humanitarian

1:24:30

aid of reaching Gaza and last by not least but not least for me as an

1:24:37

academic Israel is carried out uh scholasticide in Gaza

1:24:45

scholasticide is a destruction of the educational system of a place and Israel

1:24:53

has destroyed the whole infrastructure of schooling it bombed

1:25:01

412 schools it had bombed and damaged or

1:25:07

destroyed all 12 universities um uh in Gaza it’s destroyed libraries

1:25:14

uh and archives and they completely disrupted uh education for 600,000 children uh in

1:25:23

Gaza so this is um scholastic side uh and um

1:25:34

um and the western leaders still refuse to call a spade a

1:25:42

spade and still side with Israel so there is a huge and growing gap between

1:25:50

the western elites that are pro-Israeli and the western publics that are

1:25:57

overwhelmingly and increasingly critical of Israel and pro-

1:26:03

Palestinians and I’m think that the trend now is for governments to adjust

1:26:10

their foreign policy to meet this strong public support for the Palestinians

1:26:16

there are signs of that uh since the war in Gaza started a number of European

1:26:24

countries re recognized Palestine um Ireland Norway Spain

1:26:32

Slovenia um but Britain is an outlier eventually I hope that Britain too would

1:26:39

recognize uh Palestine i hope that Britain would stop all arms supplies to

1:26:46

Israel at the moment this government has only suspended export

1:26:53

licenses uh for of arms to Israel for 10% it’s still supplying 90% so Britain

1:27:01

is not just complicit in Israeli war crimes is Britain under Labor government

1:27:07

is an active partner in committing genocide in Gaza professor Abishm thank

1:27:14

you so much for your time today you’ve been very generous with your time thank you it’s been a pleasure

1:27:22

please remember to subscribe to our social media and YouTube channels and head over to our website

1:27:27

thinkingmuslim.com to sign up to my weekly newsletter no fat

ooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

oooooo

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