From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (58)

Ibaitik Itsasora

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How Israel Became A Fascist State | Aaron Bastani meets Ilan Pappé

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9rr3j7vZGo)

On 7 April 2025 at EartH in Hackney, Aaron Bastani was joined by historian Ilan Pappé for a special live version of Downstream.

They discussed the origins of Britain’s Israel lobby, the indoctrination of Israelis and whether the recent atrocities committed in Gaza and the West Bank are signs of Israel’s imminent collapse.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

we’re often told almost every day there is not an Israel lobby And if you think there’s an Israel lobby that there’s a

0:06

Zionist lobby a coordinated effort to undermine and obscure the facts and the truth about what’s going on in

0:12

Israel Palestine you’re a conspiracy theorist you’re malevolent you’re even

0:17

racist Uh and the gentleman I’m speaking to tonight has been a voice of absolute

0:24

and utter clarity um in demonstrating that is simply not the case

0:30

Tonight’s event with circus 700 people here uh I like to think is a direct

0:37

repudiation of the Israel lobby It’s repudiation of the constant efforts to muddy the water obscure the facts and in

0:44

many instances subvert free and open debate In that battle between fact and

0:51

propaganda historical memory and state sanctioned forgetting I can think of few

0:56

figures more important than tonight’s speaker Professor Elan Pepe is one of

1:01

the most courageous and incisive historians working today A former professor at the University of Hifer

1:08

he’s now director of the European Center for Palestine Studies at the University of Exat He’s best known for his

1:15

groundbreaking book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine which challenged mainstream historical narratives and forced many to

1:20

confront the extraordinary truth about 1948 the Nakba and

1:26

beyond His scholarship rooted in meticulous archival research is matched

1:31

by a deep moral clarity and commitment to justice At a time when speaking out often comes at significant cost nowhere

1:39

more so than on this issue Elan has never wavered in his pursuit of the truth On the issue of Palestine past

1:47

present and future he is utterly essential reading And tonight we have the privilege of hearing from him

1:53

directly Please join me in welcoming Professor Elan Pepe [Music]

1:58

[Applause]

2:05

Elon was telling me in the green room he’s in such high demand he was actually giving a Zoom call to Italians in the

2:11

taxi on the way over Uh but we’ve got you in the flesh Yeah No tax which is

2:16

which is very very good I want to um start by referring to an

2:21

article you wrote in 1999 which was what you viewed back then

2:27

as an escalation in the indoctrination of Israelis Um and you believed that the

2:33

next cohort of graduates at the end of the last century would become I think the phrase was racist fanatics

2:40

Um tell me a little bit about the system of indoctrination that Israelis are presently subject to from cradle to

2:47

grave and how has that changed in the last 20 25 years Yeah Yes I did write

2:53

this uh research in 1999 uh predicting that in 20 years time The

3:01

great anyone who entered at a very early age the Israeli education of the 21st

3:07

century uh could only graduate as a person that

3:13

is uh subscribing to racism and and and fanaticism especially as far as the

3:19

Palestinians and the Arab world is concerned Now in many ways the

3:26

indoctrination was the same from the very beginning of the Zionist project

3:32

You needed to not only convince the world about the validity of the Zionist

3:37

project You needed to convince the Jewish uh uh uh people as well about the

3:44

validity And then you had needed an indoctrination that would explain the

3:51

hardships that they encountered as early colonialists and the uh anti-colonialist

3:59

struggle that they encountered So all of that contributed to the formulation of

4:05

indoctrination that became state indoctrination since 1948

4:11

Um if anything change it is uh I would

4:16

put it in this way I think that up to the early 90s there was uh a very

4:25

interesting attempt to reconcile universal values within the educational

4:32

system with the uh ethnic racist ideals

4:37

of Zionism as if you could be uh a liberal Zionist a progressive Zionist a

4:44

democratic Zionist The whole notion that was uh sold to the world was about the

4:50

Jewish democracy Namely you can be both an ethnic racist state but still a

4:56

democracy I think what really changed in the indoctrination was giving up on this

5:02

attempt to uh square the circle So there was a sense that this was not necessary

5:10

that it was not working anyway because uh Israel was criticized because what it

5:16

was doing not because of the way that it marketed itself and uh now I would say

5:22

in the last 25 years there’s very little stress on universal values there is a

5:29

very clear interpretation of Judaism that wasn’t there before as as an

5:35

ideological uh blueprint uh that is mainly focused

5:40

on taking over the land dispossessing the Palestinians maybe even creating

5:46

something that is even greater than greater Israel that is Israel over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip uh and very

5:55

little concern uh for uh the international reaction to

6:01

Israel There is even an element of contempt for secular Jewish

6:09

life within Israel as being a kind of a show of

6:15

weakness that might affect the ability of the state and the society to achieve

6:21

its goals in the future And on that point about what’s changed in the last two and a half

6:27

decades it seems to me that the state of Israel as it exists today an ethnostate

6:32

um is something of a blueprint for um racial supremacists in Europe people

6:38

that want um eternally white France Britain Germany etc etc They take

6:44

inspiration from the idea of of Israel When did that become a norm And I don’t

6:49

just mean anti-semmites agreeing with Zionist because we can talk about that later That that has a real heritage but

6:55

people literally pointing to it as a as a as the template for a post-liberal state That seems quite recent as well It

7:03

is recent And and you have to remember the uh the very idea

7:09

of the Zionist project is was to solve a European

7:15

problem of anti-semitism by imposing a European

7:21

Jewish state on the Arab world at the heart of the Arab world against the will of the

7:27

Palestinians So from the very beginning you you there was an alliance that believed

7:34

in this project that was fully aware that the only way of implementing this

7:40

project was by force and uh that alliance to begin with

7:46

included also the left included also the liberals to begin with um a very

7:54

important in in different stages in the way that this project of Zionism became

7:59

a Jewish state in 1948 and then a state that was recognized as part of the

8:04

western world the alliance until I would say the beginning of this

8:10

century Uh probably the most important members of that alliance were was not the right not the extreme right for sure

8:18

not populist fascist leaders Actually in the 60s and the 70s it was the social

8:25

democratic parties It was the Democrat party in the United States Sort of center and center left were very

8:32

important members of the alliance that uh uh gave Israel moral validity

8:39

political validity and material assistance Now once the Israeli behavior

8:46

became even more aggressive and the whole Israeli political system shifted to the right in 2000

8:54

uh then even more friendly members of that alliance

9:00

that provided immunity for Israel began to be a bit more critical and and that’s when it was very

9:08

clear that if you look at the state of Israel is standing on two pillar a moral moral pillar and a material pillar The

9:15

moral pillar was almost totally eroded already by the beginning of the 20th century That is when the alliance

9:23

shifted from having also democratic and socialist or social democratic uh

9:30

members in it into relying heavily heavily on populist neorite parties uh

9:38

fascist parties Christian fundamentalist became even more important than they ever were before Uh so it was a matter

9:47

of having the support of either very cynical sinister

9:52

multinational corporation or military industries or security industries on the

9:57

one hand or ideological movements or persons who uh believe that the creation

10:04

of the Jewish state is God’s will the fulfillment of a certain uh uh uh uh

10:10

kind of messianic vision whether a Jewish one or a Christian on and the the

10:16

other elements that were there and supported the Zionist project in the state of Israel became uh less and less

10:24

uh uh assertive in this alliance and less and less confident that they were on the right side of history So I think

10:31

yes we we have now something else Maybe I I just want to add that there is also

10:38

something very historically structural here Namely however you look at it the most

10:46

anti-semitic and neo neoight fascist movements in Europe have

10:53

something in common with Zionism Both ideological movements for different reasons would like to see the

11:00

Jews of Europe in Palestine So uh that that created an

11:05

ideological alliance Sometimes there were even more embarrassing chapters in the relationship between the leadership

11:12

of the Zionist movement in the 1920s and 1930s uh with fascist forces in Europe

11:19

and so on But that was the exception not the rule But it it came out of the same

11:24

uniformity of of interest The idea is that Jews do not belong to Europe not

11:30

belong in Europe they belong in a Jewish European state at the heart of the Arab

11:36

world So in a way this is the trajectory of history Now now we have the real

11:42

alliance the real allies of a project that to begin with was invalid morally

11:48

politically and probably was not very practical unless you could ensure huge

11:55

force behind it to create it and later on to sustain it

12:00

the the point about the support of the social democratic left and Israel all

12:06

the way through to let’s say 25 years ago Of course in the case of the Labour party it’s still ongoing Um I want to

12:12

probe that in a second Uh but it’s also really important to say that um support for Arabism was rightcoded for a very

12:20

long time Maybe touch upon that as well But quickly what was the relationship like between the Labour left and the

12:27

state of Israel between say 1945 all the way through to the 1990s or until Oslo Yeah that’s a

12:35

very interesting uh uh story which I write on the book because the Ethi government that came to

12:42

power in 1945 in the last three years of the British mandate in Palestine 1945 to

12:50

1948 was not very friendly toward the Zionist project uh famously it uh there

12:58

were some sort of criticism related and rightly so to the way ans beving who was

13:04

the foreign minister did not always distinguish between the Zionist project and Jew

13:11

Judaism at the same time one should say the same ethly government was not supporting the idea of a pal of the

13:17

Palestinian nationhood and independence they had their own ideas that actually

13:22

Jordan would be the Britain’s best ally And then

13:28

within three or four years after the creation of the state of Israel it was the left wing of the Labor

13:37

Party that was Zionist to the bone and led the Labor Party to be far

13:45

more pro-Israel than the Conservative Party in the 50s and the 60s Uh why was

13:51

it Well I try in the book to answer it Uh uh it had to do with buying into the

13:59

Israeli propaganda that Israel is a socialist haven Bringing very important labor

14:07

leaders in the 50s and the 60s to visit the kibuts and give them the idea that

14:14

the kibbutz is actually the epitome of all Israel Well actually only 3% of the

14:19

Israelis lived in the kibuts uh totally ignoring the way the Palestinian

14:24

citizens of Israel were living under military rule not understanding the whole issue So it was effective

14:34

advocacy moral blindness uh and wishful thinking that there is

14:40

within the west there is a better version of socialism uh uh and you know and these were the

14:47

most important people in the Labor Party in the 50s and the 60s and the very few

14:52

people who bothered to see the place for themselves namely not to be guided by

14:58

Israeli tours were very much opposed that kind of of policy Um and uh as I

15:06

mentioned in my own book uh people like Brown who was the uh the foreign

15:12

secretary George Brown George Brown who you know in a very tame and kind of soft

15:19

way dare to mention that there were Palestinians as well he was condemned as

15:26

anti-semite and there was pressure on on on the British government to sack him

15:32

only because he he he just recognized the palist Inians as as people He didn’t even say anything about the right of

15:38

return or anything So it it’s very interesting and and by the way this was not just the the British Labor Party The

15:45

Social Democratic parties of Europe felt that the Jewish state

15:52

absolves them from dealing with anti-semitism during the Second World

15:59

War from dealing with racism uh and really this mixture of falling

16:05

into a very effective uh campaign of advocacy on the one hand and having

16:14

probably hidden or not so hidden Islamophobic and Arab phobic attitudes

16:20

towards the Arab world Uh because we have to remember the Labor Party was

16:26

ruling a British whenever it was in power in government

16:31

uh it was not uh did not see the Arab world as a place that is entitled to

16:37

independence and total freedom They were very much into the mood of the cold war as well as the conservatives So yes the

16:45

the left has a lot to to to think about of about its

16:51

complicity in the creation of the state of Israel and uh sustaining it in the

16:57

first 10 15 years and totally ignoring the price the Palestinians paid for it

17:03

Yeah Because it’s very tempting when you look at historical figures like Nbe Evan you know the godfather of the NHS in

17:08

this country you think you know unadulterated good person but you know he was one of the archionists in the Labour Party supporting this thing He

17:14

and Harold Wilson uh Herald Wilson in particular prime minister for the Labor

17:20

Party in the late 60s early 70s uh uh really kind

17:28

of comparing can you imagine it Maybe you can because this was a different time He compared Israel to the struggle

17:37

of the ANC in South Africa He didn’t compare apart at South Africa to Israel I want just to make it clear He he he he

17:46

said to Jim Kaline who was a sec secretary of state uh we will not budge

17:51

on Israel and South Africa And I think the poor guy thought that finally Wilson

17:57

meant let’s take a harsh position towards a parted Israel and a part of South Africa No that’s what he meant He

18:03

meant Israel is like the ANC And he was honored uh with uh a special forest that

18:13

the Jewish National Fund planted uh which existed until

18:19

today It’s called Britain the Park of Britain But it’s actually in in gratitude uh it was a gift to Herold

18:26

Wilson for his pro-Israeli stances And this forest is built on the ruins of

18:32

five or six Palestinian villages that were destroyed in 1948 And the people

18:38

were ethnically cleansed from these villages Uh and um people were trying to

18:44

alert Wilson to this but he totally ignored it as propaganda He he brushed

18:49

it aside as as propaganda So yes leading uh leaders

18:54

including true socialist if you want in in terms of national policies

19:00

uh did still regard Israel more or less until 1967 as a beacon not only of democracy

19:08

but also of socialism of social democracy And it’s incredible if you know what

19:14

happened to the Palestinians at that time But um uh this is an historical

19:21

fact we cannot brush aside or ignore Uh let’s talk about your

19:26

biography a little bit What was your childhood like in Israel And when was

19:32

the moment for you personally when you realized that this isn’t normal that most most states for all their sins

19:39

don’t operate in the same way that Israel does to a minority population Well you know in when you are born into

19:48

an indoctrinated society uh you you have a normal life so to

19:55

speak within the indoctrination As a child you don’t question what your

20:01

teacher is saying you don’t question what your parents are saying or what the society is is is broadcasting Uh so

20:09

while I I was in my boyhood and and uh as a young teenager I was unaware of

20:17

anything outside the realm of what was uh u uh provided to me through the the

20:24

the institutions Uh going getting out of it

20:30

was a journey It was not a moment of epiphany It was not just one moment but

20:35

it was it was a journey and um it had a lot to do with my decision to

20:41

uh pursue a career as a professional historian because I loved history and uh

20:47

and it was natural to wish to want to research your own country’s history Uh I

20:55

also found it quite reasonable to look for a very formative moment in that

21:01

history 1948 It made sense the very beginning of things as I thought it was

21:08

Uh so that was one pointer I think there was one kind of uh trigger that put me

21:14

in a different direction and then also the decision to pursue my professional

21:20

career as an historian outside of Israel There are things you can see from the

21:26

outside that you cannot see from the inside And I was lucky also that by

21:31

coincidence I had also an Arab supervisor that introduced me to to

21:37

Palestinians on equal footing in a way that I could not have probably easily

21:42

done in Israel itself So all of that sort of produced a a wealth of knowledge

21:49

from the archives through what I read and heard from people that totally

21:56

negated the narrative I grew upon And because I was interested in history from

22:01

very early age I knew the the Israeli narrative very well I mean not every

22:06

Israeli Jew knew the narrative of 1948 I was very well-versed in the Israeli

22:12

version of 19 48 And every moment I became more independent in my thinking

22:19

and my academic work all the main arguments of that narrative was were

22:24

faltering and falling apart uh and actually were exposed as she lies And

22:31

that is is it’s quite difficult to accept it you you don’t easily accept it

22:37

because of all the military actions that Israel did The war of 1948 is portrayed

22:44

in Israel as the purest as the most noble one You may have questions about

22:51

1956 1967 but nobody questions 1948 That was the David against Golas and the

22:59

miracle of of defeating seven Arab armies and you start looking at the the facts

23:07

and you don’t see seven Arab armies and then you don’t see a David uh

23:13

you see a Palestinian David but you don’t see an Israeli David and and slowly the myth the mythology and the

23:21

myths are also you debunk them by research not by you know by by being

23:29

argumentative Uh but that takes time It takes time for you to to understand that

23:34

there’s something here which is even beyond challenging the narrative of 1948 that you have to go back to the

23:41

origins of Zionism itself So somewhere in the work as a as a doctorate students

23:48

in the 1980s up to the mid 1990s I needed sort of 10 years to to get out of

23:56

it and cross the Rubicon and then not looking back anymore being confident

24:01

that uh I’m going in the right direction But uh did did you lose friends and and

24:06

fall out with family members I I lost many members family members Some of them

24:12

I didn’t care at all losing This was actually quite good Uh it was much life

24:18

became much easier when certain cousins and nephews decided not to talk to me I

24:24

said “Thank God I should have done it earlier.” Um friends were

24:30

disappointing Uh yes a lot of them colleagues and so on

24:37

Uh it took time to to find a a new reference group because what you need is

24:44

a reference group Everybody needs um and it took time for the my Palestinian

24:50

friends to totally kind of have confidence in what I’m doing But once that happened I was again in a

24:58

protective social media Uh uh which was nice But but yeah you lose you lose it

25:05

uh you are challenging the tribe you’re challenging the the truism of the of the

25:12

narrative You are at best insane and at worst a traitor

25:20

Why do you think Israel produces so few dissident thinkers like you I mean we see conscientious objectors etc Very

25:26

incredibly brave people but no you’re right There’s not that there’s not that many of them Why do you think that is

25:31

Yeah I wish I had a good answer for you Uh it’s it’s a very good question because

25:38

um you sort of thinking about 1950 and you say okay they couldn’t know much

25:44

there’s no internet no television the world was supporting them and then you

25:50

say okay after 67 there is television h after 1987 there is

25:57

internet the world is sending them messages for sure after the beginning of

26:02

the 21st century that what they are doing is criminal and yet

26:08

so such a small number of them accept it Uh so so it’s it’s it’s it’s a very good

26:16

question because it still continues I don’t think it’s a it’s difficult to

26:21

understand how it was working in the early stages of statethood but why is it still uh today and one has to say this

26:28

is not a dictatorship that uh people are afraid to challenge because they would

26:34

be jailed or tortured for challenging the regime This is a total unc

26:42

unconditional support for the regime and actually it’s very brave to challenge

26:48

the regime Um I think that it has to do first of all with a very

26:54

effective indoctrination and manipulation particular of fear Um there there is an objective

27:02

feeling because there is a Palestinian resistance and Palestinian resistance

27:08

can be violent and can create this sense that you are not secure So you want to

27:13

be in in your own tribe But this is not enough So you manipulate fear You not

27:19

only manipulate fear The worst thing and I think the one which really works is

27:24

the abuse of the Holocaust memory The most important mechanism the state of

27:31

Israel uses through all its systems to make sure that people would not

27:36

deviate from the basic attitudes and perceptions of the Palestinians of the

27:42

conflict of of the of the region is to make sure that there is a sense that any

27:49

deviation from that will open the way for a second holocaust

27:54

uh that uh this would be suicidal There’s no basis for it

28:00

factually logically morally But I can tell you as a product of the Israeli

28:07

educational system you get overdoses of manipulation of the

28:13

Holocaust memory so that you are not uh uh uh you’re not you cannot forget it

28:20

and you are becoming addicted to it I I really see it as as as kind of a like

28:26

taking people making them junkies of this kind of of of fear uh the number of

28:33

uh Israelis that uh as children are going and visiting uh extermination

28:38

camps which is fine which is okay they should but it’s not so much visiting

28:44

Avitz it’s how they are visiting Awitz the all the visits are connected

28:50

directly to the Palestinians and the military namely you see what would

28:56

happen if you are not loyal to the country you will find you yourself again

29:03

in a new ovitz unbelievable totally uh out of not there’s nothing common

29:09

sensical nothing logical but that doesn’t matter um and any one of you who

29:15

I don’t know how many of you visited the Israeli Holocaust Museum you can see that the end of the museum is the

29:22

creation of the state of Israel so all the time there is this creation so I think that’s one thing uh but there

29:30

is if you unpack it more you have to ask yourself why for

29:35

instance the second and third generation of Jews who came from North Africa are

29:41

the most anti-Arab element in the state of Israel I mean people who are themselves Arabs are are now one of the

29:50

most important group of of uh of racism not only supporting the racist

29:56

government but also menacing saying a menace to anyone who dares to to

30:02

challenge that And then you you begin you have to go back to the history how they were dearabbized by the state and

30:10

understood that the only way to be accepted as European Jews was to show

30:15

total antagonism to their own Arab uh identity culture and language And the

30:23

best way to show that you are not an Arab is to display hatred towards the

30:29

Arabs So so you you have this kind of uh

30:34

mixture of uh pro uh human engineering

30:40

that some is directed to the population at large some is directed to a certain

30:45

section of the population but all in all this this is the product of indoctrination Now why is

30:54

it so important to say that Because if we would have a member of the Israeli embassy here today or an Israeli

31:01

academic who supports Israel he would say nonsense This is because this is an

31:07

objective reaction to the fact that the Arab world wants to destroy us that the

31:12

Palestinians want to kill us that Iran wants to obliterate us This is this is

31:18

why it’s so important your question is so important because the Israeli narrative does not deny that this is the

31:25

position but says that there is no choice but of course there is a choice

31:30

and of course this is not because of the Palestinians or the Arabs it’s because of the nature of the Zionist project

31:38

that if you really believe that the only solution for the Jewish problem is to

31:45

create a Jewish state over historical Palestine with as few Palestinians as

31:50

possible You need all the time to use violence to justify it and to be ready

31:57

to be involved in that violence for generations to come because the Palestinians would not uh give up the

32:04

Arab world may change and therefore that’s that’s that’s the kind of I don’t

32:09

know maybe Sparta in ancient time was similar or Prussia in certain moments in history but it’s it’s really this kind

32:17

of uh DNA where you you you you tend to

32:22

believe there’s no other way out of it but to display this kind of aggression

32:30

and and uh and animosity Yeah Yeah one of the big ideological claims of sort of

32:36

the internet age is that the more we’re exposed to something the more we’ll be persuaded Um and that was of course the

32:42

central idea of things like um Wikileaks just put it out there then

32:47

that itself is a is a major political act and of course extraordinary journalism And that will by virtue of just relaying those facts change minds

32:55

And the absolutely incredible thing about Israel is that the more exposure people have to the um atrocities that

33:03

the Israeli state commits The more exposure there is the more supportive the population becomes of those

33:08

atrocities the more right-wing it becomes the more it dehumanizes Arabs And in your response you’ve said that

33:14

your precise phrase was abuse of Holocaust memory it is central to the

33:19

manufacturer of of consent for that So presumably without the abuse of

33:25

Holocaust memory that do you think that just simply wouldn’t be possible You wouldn’t be able to execute that kind of strategy I I don’t know because it is so

33:33

so central to this whole issue that uh maybe they would have find other methods

33:40

to do it but but it they would have recruited anti-semitism anyway for that

33:46

uh um you know the the it’s very important to understand that

33:52

um it ever since I would say the 1930s first the Zionist

33:58

military structures and then the after 1948 the Israeli

34:04

army was working very hard to convince soldiers and think about 1948 in

34:10

particular uh when when they were attacking the

34:16

enemy the Palestinians they were not attacking an army They were attacking a

34:21

village with all the population in it Now some of the people who were part of

34:27

the troops were themselves Holocaust survivors

34:32

Uh now how do you convince them that the right thing to do is go into

34:38

Dirasine or any other village massacre children babies women and men and

34:45

believe that this is self-defense Uh and this is necessary

34:52

The political officers of these units as we know used to ignite the enthusiasm of

35:00

these soldiers but making sure that they associate a Palestinian village with

35:06

Nazism the Palestinian national movement with Nazism Uh I can give you uh two

35:14

very good examples of how this manipulation is working in Israel in a very powerful way Almost every Israeli

35:22

household has something called the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust Now the first biggest entry is Hitler which

35:30

makes sense The second’s longest entry is Hajamin Al Husseini the Palestinian

35:36

leader of the 1940s The second largest longest ant So that the message is very

35:43

is very clear Or if you some of you might remember Minahim begging in

35:48

1982 comparing Yas Arafat in a bunker in Beirut to Hitler in the bunker in Berlin

35:56

Uh but these are just two two examples of this You needed to

36:02

deumanize the native the indigenous in order to convince your own

36:08

troops and people to genocide to ethnic lands and so on Now it’s not an

36:15

exceptional case in history Aaron It’s not an exceptional case to to convince European refugees to

36:23

slaughter Native Americans or native Australians you also needed to

36:29

dehumanize the indigenous population to say that they are not really human beings They’re savages and therefore you

36:36

can do what you do whether even to the children and so on So it’s not it’s just a it’s a version of that I think for the

36:44

case of of of of Israel it was important not just to dehumanize as conventional

36:51

settler colonialist movement would demonize the natives in order to justify their genocide or removal or imposing on

36:58

them apartite You also needed to uh add something else to make it sure because

37:04

you were worried that maybe Jews who were refugees from Europe would find it

37:10

a bit too much what they were supposed to do in order to to build a state

37:16

because it was very clear that it was not a a land without people waiting for the people without land It was land full

37:23

of people uh who were uh building their own life and and future and the only way

37:30

that people saw it was like a zero sum game Either they are there or we are there and to obliterate them you know

37:38

you needed this kind of dehumanization But I think in the case of the Israeli

37:43

education the dehumanization had to go with the Nazification of the of the

37:49

Palestinians Uh we had this bizarre uh example when uh Benjamin Netanyahu I

37:57

think it was still with Theresa May uh trying to convince her that uh it was the MUI who gave Hitler the idea of of

38:06

the Holocaust and things like that I mean okay that’s that’s that’s even for Israeli was going too far but um but

38:12

nonetheless it’s it’s it comes from the same place Yeah it comes from the same place Uh totally

38:20

delegitimizing a totally legitimate anti-colonialist struggle against a settler colonial project So how do you

38:27

dele delegitimize it You you you say it’s a continuation of the old

38:34

anti-semitic uh tradition of Europe and the worst part of that tradition How do

38:39

we silence How do people try to silence us here in Britain when we support

38:47

Palestinians They call us Holocaust deniers It’s the IH the famous IH

38:52

definition So it’s the same structure It’s it’s a kind of believing that you

38:57

can use that the memory of that horrible event in Europe to

39:03

justify the behavior towards the Palestinians and to silence those who

39:08

support the Palestinians Uh the fact that we all here probably see it so clearly is not surprising But the fact

39:16

that our politicians don’t see it or they see it and ignore it is beyond

39:22

comprehension I think that’s really clarifying saying that the the sort of transposition of

39:30

Nazism onto the figure of the Palestinian and the memory of the Holocaust and the abuses of that memory

39:37

those two things are utterly necessary They’re fundamental in the reproduction of the Israeli state and and it cannot

39:44

continue to be reproduced without those things which makes I mean because it’s constant right That makes it um very

39:50

explicable I have one question for you Building on what we’ve already talked about obviously you’ve got a tremendous

39:57

archive of historical knowledge about all this stuff If I said to you in the summer of 2021 Elan there’s

40:05

going to be um a major conflict in Gaza you know we’re going to see 15 16 17,000

40:11

children die Um but Netanyahu will still be in power Um there won’t really be any

40:19

major political consequences is the IDF will still be on side etc Would that have surprised you I suppose that’s what

40:25

I’m asking Are you are you surprised by the extent to which the Israeli state apparatus has managed to hold on despite

40:32

unprecedented bloodshed in its name Well the I’ll tell you what surprised me and

40:38

what didn’t surprise me Unfortunately neither the uh Hamas

40:43

operation surprised me given everything that was going on in the Gaza Strip since 2007 what was going on in the West

40:51

Bank and the Gaza Strip since 220 2020 especially since uh November

40:57

2022 So that did not surprise me These unfortunately the Israeli reaction did

41:03

not surprise me Uh I I always I wrote long before that that uh ethnic

41:10

cleansing as a method of eliminating the native is not working for the Israelis

41:16

And I know from history when ethnic cleansing is not working then the settler colonial project will result to

41:23

genocide I I I I I I predicted it I was unfortunately I didn’t want to to to

41:29

broadcast it because you don’t want to make it come true if you talk about it too much but no I wasn’t surprised What

41:36

I really was surprised was uh by the reaction of the west and especially of

41:43

Europe and especially Western Europe This is something I could not predict I

41:50

mean I I could not predict that a genocide with of that magnitude with

41:57

that visibility uh with that kind of cruelty

42:03

uh would not steer any of uh the

42:08

important members of the political elites of the west to have a second

42:14

thought about their support for Israel about their responsibility for the

42:19

suffer suffering of the Palestinians It was this kind of uh spectrum that we

42:26

have between total indifference to condoning the Israelis

42:34

uh is is so narrow and uh shows such

42:39

moral cowardness of of the politicians because I’m sure that they know what’s

42:44

going on It’s it’s not that they don’t know they know what’s going on and I’m

42:49

knowing some of them not personally necessarily but you know knowing what they’re doing knowing their positions

42:57

uh it’s very clear that they take a conscious decision not to get involved

43:02

because they fear for their political career uh not because they are particularly bad

43:10

people who like to see genocide happening but they are the worst kind of

43:16

people we know from all these philosopher who tell us that evil exists

43:21

not only by those who perpetrate it but but also those who don’t do anything against it and we are talking here about

43:27

people who could do something against it this is this is something that that surprised me but even more surprising

43:34

and I think we should talk about it is if you if you are able and I’m able from

43:40

time to time to talk to intellectuals academics colleagues politician in this

43:46

country and in the continent and in the United States who still support Israel

43:53

people who are educated knowledgeable very articulate and on every other subject in

44:01

the world you would respect the way they talk the knowledge that they bring with

44:08

them and you learn something when it comes to Israel

44:14

Some of the most sophisticated articulate whether politicians or

44:20

journalists or academics become such imbeciles who parrot the Israeli script

44:29

without any criticism without any of the faculties that they have whenever they examine

44:37

anything else in the world This is something that has to be analyzed I wrote too many books otherwise I would

44:43

have written a book about it It’s really something to write a book about it This this I I I call it uh uh it’s moral

44:51

moral stupidity Uh this is unbelievable I mean the Germans are the worst I mean

44:57

I don’t know if any of you had conversation with German intellectuals why they support Israel even today This

45:04

is so embarrassing Uh and it’s even more embarrassing in German I understand German It it sounds even worse in German

45:11

and and but but it’s not better here in many ways and and and this is something

45:18

that needs to be analyzed It it’s just you are willing to degrade yourself as a

45:25

thinker as a researcher as a journalist as a political in order to

45:32

satisfy what in order to satisfy a state that commits daily

45:38

genocide Uh and you’re willing even to destroy the international legal system for that and so on

45:45

You know maybe 500 pages of lobbying for Zionism is not enough to explain

45:52

600 book Yeah To to explain that why is it still so

45:58

effective in the face of the genocide Why is lobbying so effective It must be

46:03

It has to do a lot with Islamophobia I’m sure it has to do a lot with the fact that because of Zionism Europe never

46:11

dealt with racism Never dealt with racism Because if you ignore the racism against Jews by saying we don’t have to

46:18

deal with racism against Jews because we created a lovely state for them in the Arab world then racism stays part of the

46:25

European society And Israel reminds Europe that racism is not over in its

46:32

laws in its constitution in its educational system and so on Uh so

46:37

that’s that’s definitely part of it Uh but there’s still this fear or uh among

46:45

politician and maybe and I would finish by saying that maybe it says something about the essence of politics these days

46:53

I don’t want to to to to generalize but I will Uh most of the politicians in the

47:01

west are self-centered regarding electoral the

47:06

the the the electoral base They regard them as as uh as as a base that would

47:15

ensure the reelection not a group of people who have concerns to which they have to attend

47:20

It’s of course there are exceptions but but generally speaking I don’t recall a

47:26

period in modern history when politicians were of such a low

47:31

caliber

47:43

and it became an occupational uh solution in times when unemployment is I

47:50

it’s it’s uh it’s quite incredible this and the gap between the rhetoric in

47:56

England it’s particular because they speak nicely the the gap between the rhetoric and what they really do is so

48:03

huge so so maybe that’s also part of it which gives me a little hope you know

48:08

because I do believe that eventually human societies would be fed up with

48:14

that kind of politics and every even a baby step A small move towards better

48:21

kind of politics which are based on justice on moral values is a small win

48:28

for the Palestinians The more just our societies the more moral our politics

48:34

are the more our governments would understand their uh role and uh

48:43

responsibility for defending the Palestinians and go beyond what they are

48:48

doing now in order to make sure that Israel cannot complete the elimination of the

48:57

[Applause]

49:06

Palestinians One refrain you get a lot from some of the people you’re talking about sort of pro-Israel voices that say

49:11

“Well why do you care?” You know why do you care Besides the fact of course there’s a genocide 16 17,000 children be

49:17

killed etc Why do you care And one thing I say is well I believe in universal values and the success of an

49:24

ethnationalist state which is the blueprint for the far right on our own continent undermines the possibility of

49:31

successful multicultural states in Europe I’m half Iranian but by the by by

49:38

virtue of how citizenship is constructed in Israel I’m not really British I can never be British I can’t be I really

49:44

belong in Iran just like Jews in Europe really belong in Israel And I still

49:50

don’t think it’s hit home with the liberal intelligence here in Europe What what that means take it to its logical

49:56

conclusion It means an ethnationalist Europe where everybody of any kind of foreign um heritage whatsoever goes back

50:03

home And that is a living political entity which has the full backing of our governments across Europe Utterly

50:10

extraordinary uh you say we are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity

50:16

not the beginning of a bad chapter as in you’re an optimist which or you’re

50:21

optimistic about the situation Can you just unpack that a bit because I think most people who’ve heard

50:27

that and I’ll repeat it We are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity not the beginning of a bad chapter Most

50:33

people think it’s the other way around Yeah I I think it’s important to say that uh uh with a caveat that bad

50:42

chapters in human history from a political economic human

50:49

aspects are the worst part of the bad chapter The end is worse than anything

50:56

else Such was the end of apartheite South Africa Such was the end of many

51:02

other rogue regimes in history The last years of the regimes were the worst in

51:09

terms of what the regime was doing in order to survive Losing all inhibitions and I

51:15

think that’s what we are seeing here But that that’s what I mean I mean we are not at the beginning of a new chapter We

51:22

are at the very end of the chapter that probably began with the Nakba of 1948 if

51:27

not before that a chapter by which international immunity was given to a

51:34

project of dispossession and elimination of a small nation called the

51:39

Palestinians because that project served different sometimes conflicting interest

51:45

of a global alliance that consisted of uh Christian

51:51

evangelicals ideologues neoconservatives as we said before socialists and liberals as Well

51:59

that chapter is coming to an end Uh and we can see the indications Now before I

52:06

will unpack the indications that this is the end I I want to warn again what I

52:12

started with This is not a big good news that

52:18

you bring to the people of Gaza today by telling them that this chapter is about

52:23

to end and the next two three years are going to be the worst of this chapter

52:29

this is not what they want to hear from us and rightly they would demand of us to try and stop the chapter now and not

52:37

wait for it to to continue but if I’m looking at a bit in a larger larger

52:43

context I’m saying that’s where we are which does not at all contradict the fact that I would have have to be very

52:51

honest with people on the ground in telling them that at least as far as I

52:57

can see I don’t see yet the dynamics of change that would stop the Israeli

53:02

carnage Not from the inside not from the outside I have to be very honest about it But I do see the the the indications

53:11

for the end of this chapter Uh for instance I don’t remember a period in

53:16

history where so many millions and millions of people first of all know

53:22

what happens in Palestine and support the Palestinians We have never been in that And and

53:29

anybody who knows the history of the solidarity movement with the Palestinians would know that we are in a

53:36

unique moment that we don’t know how to exhaust yet and and and and use it Maybe

53:43

that’s something to discuss as well But there is a huge support for the

53:48

Palestinians There is no huge support for the Palestinians and the political elites They’re true but in the societies

53:55

the global civil society has never been so united in its support for the

54:01

Palestinians So this is a force to reckon with Unfortunately forces like

54:06

this don’t easily get to be the powers that be They don’t become the powers

54:12

from above and usually are not interested in becoming the political elites that they would have to Not only

54:20

for the sake of Gaza not only for the sake of Palestine but also for the sake of fighting global warming Also for the

54:27

sake of fighting poverty also for the sake of building a world where people

54:33

who seek uh refuge and living and and immigrate are not a problem but an asset

54:41

For all of that we need uh uh the civil so the good energies in the civil

54:46

societies to become the policy makers and not just the people who the policy makers ignore or use in order to be

54:53

elected So so that’s that’s one indicator the huge solidarity which is

54:58

also translated to small actions that we think are not important but

55:04

accumulatively will be very important Student movements that force their

55:09

university to divest are going to be written into history as being part of a

55:15

movement that eventually turn boycott into sanctions The same happened in the case of South Africa Any action of the

55:22

BDS movement is important is not wasted It takes too long It is not

55:30

accumulatively effective enough but it will be There’s no doubt about it That’s another indication No less important is

55:38

the fact that young generation of Jews all over the world stop associating themselves with Israel and Zionism They

55:45

don’t associate the Jewish identity Even secular Jews even secular Jews in

55:50

America do not associate the Jewish identity with Israel Not only that they feel that part of what they should do in

55:58

re-establishing what it means to be a Jew in the West is to be part of the solidarity movement with the

56:05

[Applause]

56:14

Palestinians and and this will be this will be an important element in in the

56:20

future Uh not to mention about the dynamics inside Israel Uh there is a a

56:26

social implosion inside the Israeli society The secular Israelis and the more religious traditional traditional

56:33

Israelis do not have anything in common They don’t find the cement that they

56:38

used to find in the past which is the external enemy This is not it seems not

56:43

to be enough to create a social cohesion And the number of Israelis who leave is

56:49

huge We don’t know the number but it’s huge and it includes the

56:55

economic elite of the country Uh the military despite everything that it’s

57:02

doing doesn’t enjoy the confidence of the society people are not blind that

57:08

after all what Israel did in the last year and a half was to find two militias

57:14

that had no aeroplanes no tanks no artillery and could hardly uh uh defeat

57:21

them uh and things can change So so the invincibility of the Israeli army is in

57:27

question and that’s part of the end of the chapter Uh economic viability is not what it was Uh the people don’t remember

57:36

this but Biden gave Israel 20 billion dollars billion dollars They wasted it

57:43

all It’s gone And I I nobody wants to say anything positive about Trump but I

57:50

do think he checks the the the account the American check account the the current account uh and if he would be

57:57

told that you need to pull out 40 billion from the current American account I’m not sure that he will do it

58:05

And again that’s the last positive thing Don’t worry not going to say anything positive about it But but it will it

58:12

will have an effect It will have an effect Um so these are very important uh uh

58:20

processes will what’s happening on the Palestinian side is not easy to to

58:26

decipher and analyze in that respect How what is their role in bringing an end

58:33

because so far what they’re doing which is totally understandable is to be resilient not to disappear in front of a

58:41

a huge machine that wants to destroy them So so they are resilient and

58:46

they’re staying uh that very fact itself would contribute to the end of the chapter But

58:52

it’s not enough It’s very clear that there needs to be a proper national movement a proper organization a pro

59:00

proper representation It’s very interesting you know the the

59:06

but the young Palestinians uh in this country in the West Bank in Gaza

59:13

uh in the world they’re an amazing human capital in terms of

59:18

education creativity uh activity activism and so on But they

59:24

shan understandably the role of political leadership They’re not interested in political leadership which

59:31

is a problem because if there’s no vacuum in history if you’re not going to

59:37

be the political leaders someone who will not be mentioned I sound like a reporter now Uh someone who won’t be

59:43

mentioned would be your leader uh and he would sit in Ramla Uh this is

59:50

very important This is also very important So so we are not just onlooker of these end of chapter We can also each

59:58

in our own way contribute to accelerate the end of that chapter But I’m I’m

1:00:04

convinced it’s not a question of will this chapter end but when will it end and how will it end These are questions

1:00:12

of course one cannot easily answer I I’m just going to finish [Applause]

1:00:24

I love I love these long sort of periods historians thinking you know when I speak to sort of anti-drerdigan Turks

1:00:30

and they talk about actually there were features of the Ottoman Empire in the 1850s they think that would be great if

1:00:35

we had it back and you know maybe it all went wrong you know the various treaties

1:00:41

100 years ago and whatnot Really fascinating Um I think the broad analysis analysis you have with regards

1:00:48

to the collapse of American empire particularly in West Asia that’s obviously something which the Israeli state has been dependent on for a very

1:00:54

long time Clearly Israeli civil society has massive contradictions now and you

1:00:59

call it in um I think more than one of your books now but in the in one of the most recent books the state of Israel is

1:01:05

being replaced by the state of Judea more theocratically inclined state Um and of course the economy of Israel has

1:01:12

just been in in in freef fall for the last two years So these are all massive factors that undermine that that project

1:01:19

that state what can the people here do What can they do other than you know buy your

1:01:26

fantastic books and give them to people as Christmas presents I love doing that Radicalizing people at Christmas you

1:01:31

know I think that’s fantastic Other than that or maybe even including that what what can they do in your opinion because

1:01:38

we can talk about the big structural factors and I think your your analysis is right in that respect but clearly

1:01:44

agency matters as well It’s you know I’m sure many activists in in in the

1:01:50

audience I can’t see anyone because of the lights so maybe they’re all not activists not that you can tell who is

1:01:57

an activist or not Um so I don’t I’m never in the in in the position of

1:02:03

telling activists what they should do because activism for Palestine in this country is incredible Really people are

1:02:10

doing wonderful things Really [Applause]

1:02:17

are I don’t think there’s one Palestinians who has any uh criticism on

1:02:22

the way uh the solidarity movement in Britain recruited itself since the 7th

1:02:28

of October standing alongside the Palestinians So I don’t have any wise

1:02:33

words to say to the activists uh what we should do I think one can identify areas

1:02:40

where one might uh be more effective and work on it uh with the hope that maybe this

1:02:50

would uh bring a quicker end to that horrible period we we’re living in

1:02:57

because uh I I many of you would know that probably from from even a

1:03:04

psychological point of view the fact that the people of Raza who thought that

1:03:10

the ceasefire was coming and there’s some sort of alal in the carnage were only now learning again that this is

1:03:18

continuing I mean just imagine being in that kind of of of of f inferno

1:03:25

uh uh and and that can can be very dis kind of disempowering for anybody who

1:03:31

who feels like what can I do to stop that and and it’s not It’s not easy to

1:03:36

to find any wiser words of how to do it However I I do think that um uh words

1:03:43

are important language is important and I think we are a bit too easy on our

1:03:50

media not alternative media on the mainstream media

1:03:56

uh they’re getting away too easily with the false language that they are using

1:04:02

with the irresponsible coverage of the events uh and the total uh uh ignorance or or

1:04:11

intentional ignorance when it comes uh to Palestine I think some more pressure

1:04:16

should be put on that on that media uh uh demonstrating there I don’t know

1:04:21

whatever activism can do I think it’s very important to to hit hard on that

1:04:28

particular part of the uh of the establishment uh that praises itself as

1:04:35

being professional and objective especially the BBC and uh is is really

1:04:41

uh serving knowingly or unknowingly uh the shield of immunity that allows

1:04:48

the genocide to to continue Similar things I think we should do Yeah

1:05:01

Yeah even UNICEF when it public when it has a I don’t know if you saw that when

1:05:06

they have uh their own kind of statement in on the BBC they mention all kinds of

1:05:12

places where to which people should contribute so that Junichef can work

1:05:17

doesn’t mention Palestine as if children have no problem in in Palestine It’s

1:05:22

part of their of UNICEF wish to be in the good books of the BBC Unbelievable

1:05:28

the things that are that are happening Universities as well You you know we we keep thinking that the only thing you

1:05:34

can do in university is demonstrations and and activism that direct kind of uh

1:05:42

challenges the management But no less important is how we teach Palestine in

1:05:47

universities In most university we’re still and high school we’re still teaching through the eyes of political

1:05:53

science international relations something to do with the conflict between two sides that has to be managed

1:06:00

has to be reconciled whereas Palestine should be taught only within the

1:06:06

framework of colonialism anticolonialism and genocide that that’s

1:06:11

where students from a professional point of view should enter what pal Palestine

1:06:18

is all about and this is not happening Most of the of of the histories of

1:06:24

Israel are taught within the department of Jewish studies That’s not what where

1:06:29

you should study Israel You should study Israel not in Jewish studies but in studies about settler colonialism

1:06:36

colonialism apartheite ethnic cleansing That’s that’s the place Now these things

1:06:41

seem to take longer but they don’t Actually if you are if you are targeting

1:06:47

where knowledge is produced and disseminated I think there could be more

1:06:53

effective ripples of it afterwards Um but otherwise I I think that we are all

1:07:00

doing what what we can and it’s very frustrating I know that this is is

1:07:05

happening And finally I would say the one thing that I think I I I I’m

1:07:11

actually quite positive about it and it may sound bizarre but the one thing that really

1:07:18

frightens a lot of Israelis is if Israel would be thrown out of

1:07:24

UEFA Seriously Seriously Seriously

1:07:33

I don’t think people understand what it means I really don’t think Think about

1:07:39

cricket and rugby in South Africa Sport is very important and sport

1:07:46

is something that reaches you every walk of life Every walk of life And this is a

1:07:52

very important message And uh I wish that the British n the English national

1:07:59

team would have learned from the Norwegian national team The Norwegian national team was willing to play Israel

1:08:08

eventually But they at least they came out one player after the other including

1:08:14

the coach including the head of the Norwegian Football Federation and they

1:08:19

said we’re doing it with a very heavy heart That’s the beginning They don’t have to do everything in one go We do it

1:08:25

with a very heavy heart knowing what Israel is doing and we would have rather that UEFA would have not allowed this

1:08:32

game to take place Now this is not enough but it’s one step in the right

1:08:38

direction I wish that this would be done here uh as well uh because uh uh

1:08:43

football players are important uh and they can have an impact as well So we we

1:08:50

need to think more and more maybe out of the box Uh uh and we need to work

1:08:56

urgently We need to work urgently not only because of what goes on in Gaza

1:09:01

today but because of what the Israelis are planning for the West Bank and what they are planning for the Palestinian

1:09:08

citizens of Israel This is not over We are not in that respect We’re not in the

1:09:13

end of the project of Messianic Zionism which I call the project of the state of

1:09:18

Judea We have a messianic political elite in Israel that really believes it

1:09:24

lives in an historical moment where it can do everything the previous political elites failed to do And that is

1:09:31

recreating the ancient kingdom of Israel as they believe existed in the biblical

1:09:37

time that probably stretches not only over historical Palestine but even

1:09:43

beyond That’s why they are contemplating settlements in the south of Syria

1:09:48

settlements in the south of Lebanon They really believe that this is kind of an historical moment and Trump plays his

1:09:55

role in this messianic vision It will not happen But while they will attempt

1:10:01

to do it more bloodshed and carnage will happen And any way we can alert people

1:10:08

with power to stop it is better And finally finally the global south needs

1:10:15

to be recruited The Muslim world needs to be

1:10:25

recruited Malaysia and Indonesia have to be recruited powerful economic powerhouses like

1:10:32

Malaysia and Indonesia with a lot of uh impact on world politics can do much

1:10:38

more than they are doing uh uh and and hopefully that kind of alliance uh that

1:10:46

supports these actions would be countered by another global alliance And this if this is my last sentence of this

1:10:53

one let’s uh give uh really praise the Colombian government for seeding its

1:11:01

relationship with Israel The first sanctions the first state in the world

1:11:07

that imposed sanction on Israel not boycott and divestment is the government

1:11:12

of Colombia And uh I hope others will

1:11:23

follow Now you’re going to sign some books Elan He has to run at 10:15 Um

1:11:28

once more applause for Professor Elan P Thank you

1:11:33

Thank you Thank you Thank you

ooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

oooooo

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