From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (52) eta Scott Ritter

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1912174079546991058

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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Scott Ritter : The Perils of US/Israel

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxulHK2iPhM)

Transkripzioa:

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Hi everyone Judge Andrew Npalitano here for Judging Freedom Today is Monday

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April 14th 2025 Scott Ritter is here on just how dangerous is the US

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relationship to Israel How dangerous for the United States but first this While

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friend the judge sent you Uh Scott Ritter welcome here Uh I want

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to chat with you a little bit about your new book Highway to Hell which I found a

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riveting read and which I was privileged to be able to uh write a blurb for We’ll

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get to it at the end Please remind me if I forget because we have so many other things to uh to talk about

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Do you accept the Alistair Crook theory or thesis that the Trump foreign policy

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administration is now divided between uh the neocons Rubio Waltz

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uh Heg Seth Gorka General Cavolei on one hand and the America firsters

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uh Tulsi Gabbard Vice President Vance Steve Witoff off uh on the other

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in order to accept that thesis and I I don’t disagree with Al first of all Alistister and I are very good friends

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and um I’m loathed to uh to to disagree with anything he says he’s very experienced man very experienced analyst

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but um there’s a structural problem to that thesis uh that implies that there’s

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actually a foreign policy establishment uh that is capable of the kind of

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coordinated you know policym that one normally finds in a presidential administration where

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the National Security Council led by the National Security Adviser run shepherd

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over the flock so to speak bringing together principles uh who think of the

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big picture then delegating down to the deputies level meetings and then these get farmed out to various inter agency

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groups That’s that’s the way it normally works you get direction from the top it gets fed down to the bottom then the

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bottom works its way back to the top Um I don’t see that kind of structure in

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play right now What I see is a bunch of principles running around um shooting

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from the hip uh making knee-jerk statements that aren’t coordinated with others And this is why you see a

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division taking place because normally you wouldn’t want to see a division of this nature Uh that’s what the process

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is designed to avoid uh any differences of opinion gets uh get hashed out behind

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closed doors in conference rooms where people lay out the options lay out their solutions debate uh the differences and

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then come up with a consensus that says this is the direction we need to go to fulfill the direction given to us by the

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commander-in-chief I also think that we’re lacking in terms of specific direction I think Donald Trump is very

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vague in his pronouncements Um they shift day by day Uh I I I’d hate to be a

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policy maker in the Trump administration because I basically I don’t have the luxury of you know farming things out to

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you know groups of experts who will have a chance to chew on it for a while digest it and come back with something

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Instead every day something new The president’s shifting changing shifting changing And I think so what we’re

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seeing here is um not so much a formal divide but what we see is just a

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cacophony of voices shouting out saying this is our opinion on what the president has said today because there’s

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no other formal structure for them to give voice to to their concerns Well do

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you think that the neocons whose names I just articulated want the war in Ukraine

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to continue for the same reason that the neocons wanted the war in the first place as a battering ram as crazy as

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this sounds to you and me and to those listening to us now as a battering ram

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with which to drive President Putin from office Lindsey Graham has pretty much said that Yeah until the

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commander-in-chief President Trump issues a statement that says that the United States is formally departing from

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past uh policy uh that the policy of the United States is no longer to uh bring

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down the Soviet bring down Russia bring down um you know Vladimir Putin’s

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government that we’re not here to strategically defeat Russia or keep Russia in a corner uh a formal policy

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pronouncement has to be made that the United States has broken with past policy and that we are now pursuing a

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policy solely focused on you know peaceful cooperation with Russia as opposed to potentially violent

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confrontation He hasn’t made that statement I’d love to see what the CIA’s directives are regarding uh intelligence

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collection and covert operations Uh is the CIA still tasked with carrying out

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uh operations designed to ferment a political opposition with the goal of bringing down Vladimir Putin tulsi

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Gabbard is the director of national intelligence but she isn’t a policy maker She’s a policy implementtor and

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she’s you know she has to be going crazy asking the president “What is the policy you want me to?” Uh I have a CIA right

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now that’s chomping at the bit to go out and continue what they’ve done I remind your audience that the CIA built more

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than 20 bases inside Ukraine solely for the purpose of engaging the Russians in

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covert operations Some of these covert operations were paramilitary in nature which means that we are on the precipice

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of armed conflict Has the president reversed these orders has he ordered these bases shut down has he terminated

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the you know the the the the directives that gave these bases their authority i

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haven’t seen anything like that I think the president right now is operating on the premise that we’re going to get

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peace and then we’ll sort things out Um but if I’m the Russians why would I have peace with a country that continues to

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believe that their singular focus when it comes to Russia is the strategic defeat of Russia uh this a very confused

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policy situation The president has to do a better job Or I suggest to you it’s even worse than that I suggest to you

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that General Cavali and his colleagues now this is from the New York Times and

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it it rings truthful to to me and I suspect to you have been involved in

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targeting and we know that the government is still providing uh military equipment and ammunition The

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United States is at war with Russia We’re picking the targets and doing everything but pulling the triggers Do

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you agree i I do But again this is I believe this isn’t so much the product

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of a of a concerted decision made by the president of the United States as opposed to the reality of momentum I

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mean we have a system that was already shoving military aid We know that the

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generals were planning There was this this whole system in place to assist the Ukrainians in waging war against Russia

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Has the president shut this down general Kovalei cannot and would not act on his

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own valition Right Right Here is the president’s most recent

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pronouncement on the United States policy with respect to Ukraine This was

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last night Sunday night Palm Sunday evening aboard Air Force One Tell me

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what you think of this Chris Cut number one Do you have a reaction to Russia’s

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uh Palm Sunday attack on I think it was terrible And I was told they made a mistake Uh but I think it’s a horrible

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thing I think the whole war is a horrible thing I think the war is for that war to have started

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is an abuse of power They said they made you were told they made a mistake You

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mean it was unable they made a mistake I believe it was Look you’re going to ask Dev This is Biden’s war This is not my

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war I’ve been here for a very short period of time This is a war that was under Biden He gave him billions and

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billions of dollars He should have never allowed if he if he had any brain which

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he didn’t have and doesn’t have And now it’s being proven Uh he wouldn’t have allowed that war to start I would have

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absolutely not That war would never have taken place But remember this this is

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Biden’s war I’m just trying to get it stopped so that we can save a lot of lives They happen to be Ukrainian and

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Russian lives but all I want to do is get it stopped But he is also giving billions and his

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CIA is also providing uh intel to the Ukrainians and his military general

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cavali and others are also picking targets So how can he blame this entirely on Biden he can’t I mean this

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is the problem This is typical Trump I mean it it’s a policy out of control He

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could take control of this policy First of all Mr President take some friendly advice Don’t speak unless you know what

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you’re talking about It wasn’t a Russian mistake The Russians deliberately targeted a gathering of military

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officials and mercenaries uh who were meeting in Sunumi an award ceremony and

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continued coordination of the ongoing conflict They were rewarding these people for invading Kursk And the

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Russians hit this target Tragically civilians lost their lives as well But this wasn’t an a deliberate attack

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against peaceful citizens on you know Palm Sunday This was a deliberate

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targeting of a legitimate military target um that you Mr President play a

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role in You you know it may have been Biden that facilitated uh the planning

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that led to the invasion of Kursk by Ukrainian forces Uh but you’re sitting here continuing to provide weapons that

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give the Ukrainians the the ability to believe that somehow America will continue to support them So they

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continue to have these meetings But the president shouldn’t open his mouth He’s the president of the United States of

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America When he speaks his word should ring as law as truth Uh should never be

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questioned I mean we can question as American citizens but hopefully if we question we find out we’re wrong he’s

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right because he did the research before he opened his mouth But this is typical of his knee-jerk reaction saying things

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that just aren’t true and therefore helping paint a picture in Ukraine in

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the Western media etc that Russia did something wrong Again I want to remind people that back in uh the end of March

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early April of 2022 um there was the BHA incident where the Ukrainian services went in and

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slaughtered uh civilians who were trying to flee with the Russians We we know it’s the case Ukrainians they deleted

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their stuff but we have them putting out you know internet warning Stay inside We’re cleansing We have videotape of

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them saying “Shoot them They don’t have the right armbands.” We know what happened but the West seized the

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initiative in terms of the propaganda painted this as a Russian atrocity and they used that as an excuse to terminate

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the first peace effort when there was the Istanbul communicate negotiated between the Russians and the Ukrainians

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Boris Johnson flew in and used BHA as a as an excuse I’m concerned right now

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that the Europeans and their media allies are going to try and use Sunumi as an excuse to cut the knees out from

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Donald Trump’s peace initiative The president needs to step up right now He needs to decide does he want peace or

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not getting peace is the easiest thing in the world Uh but he has to be decisive This man right now is extremely

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indecisive H how is it that he can have Steve Whit spending three hours directly

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with President Putin in an effort to bring about a peaceful resolution of

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this and General Kellogg making insane proposals that Ukraine be divided up the

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way Berlin was after World War II This is what happens when you don’t have a

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national security adviser in charge Uh this is the job of Mike Waltz Mike Waltz Kellogg should be fired Uh the fact or

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or if Kellogg released this officially then Walt should be fired Um the

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president sent Witco to meet with President Putin Three and a half hours they met and apparently Wkov reported

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back we we have a peace deal but in order to get it you have to make a decision about the four territories

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Keroson Zaparisia Donetskin Lugansk Uh the Russians say they have to all be Russian And if you do that we have a

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peace deal The president should issue the order That’s the American policy right now Make it happen Turn to Rubio

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Make it happen Make it happen Make it happen Instead Kellogg undermines that by releasing this nonsense which again

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undercuts everything Witoff was doing The president needs to take control Pick up a phone and tell Marco Rubio “Hey

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either you’re on my side or you’re the hell out of here okay i don’t care if Aden paid me a hundred million dollars to put you in this secretary of state

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You work for me no one else And when I tell you that we’re making peace we’re making peace So shut up about anything

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else I don’t want any word out of your mouth other than I support the president’s peace initiative Nothing else Everybody else the same way Heckith

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shut up Shut up Everybody zip it You are to say the following We support the president’s peace initiative That’s it

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No more words But instead everybody’s freelancing making it up because they’re getting no direction from above

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Do you uh think that I’m switching gears now Scott uh Prime Minister Netanyahu

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was truly stunned last Monday a week ago today when President Trump uh announced

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uh that there would be uh direct negotiations with the Iranians or do you think he knew about it uh ahead of time

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and tried to talk Donald Trump out of it and failed i think he knew about it ahead of time and tried to talk Donald

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Trump out of it and failed I mean I knew about it ahead of time Everybody speculated about this This wasn’t you

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know top secret stuff We knew that’s the direction he was heading for Um I was surprised that Wickoff was was you know

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Wickoff is doing everything I mean this man probably deserves a Nobel Peace Prize by the time this done if any if

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all this stuff works out He’s the hardest working man in Washington DC right now But we saw this coming because

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there was no other way out of this issue Of course the the the the Israelis they

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think they have Iran you know between a rock and a hard place and they they want the United States to double down on um

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putting the pressure to make no compromises no negotiations And if uh Iran fails to uh live up to what we are

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demanding to use military force Israel knows that they alone cannot lead And what’s interesting in Donald Trump’s

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response is he said Israel would have to take the lead Israel can’t take the lead They don’t have the ability to take the

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lead They need full American support and Donald Trump’s not going to give it to them He doesn’t want a war in Iran He’s

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been making the bluster He’s make been deploying forces There’s a real risk We have Pete Kadsith again I don’t know why

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the president allows him to make these statements You know if the Iranians don’t do this there’ll be deep strikes You do you honestly think that’s how you

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get the Iranians to negotiate by threatening like this how about shut up and let Wickoff do his job how about

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Lickoff have his second you know meeting where they can move forward everybody’s talking about how promising the first

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meeting was Give it a shot But Hexith comes out and undermines it by making the Iranians look as if they’re cowards

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If they continue to move forward he should be fired Literally this is a firing offense But he won’t be because

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the president’s giving no direction None This this again is the uh divided nature

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of uh of foreign policy with respect to Iran Just about just as we talked about

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the divided nature with respect to Ukraine Here is that statement from Heg Seth which infuriated me and I could see

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it infuriated you Chris cut number nine He’s he’s dead serious uh that Iran

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cannot have a nuclear weapon He’s said that for 20 years He’s been consistent That is clear But he’s also dead serious

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that if if we can’t figure this out at the negotiating table then there are other options to include my department

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uh to ensure that Iran never has a nuclear bomb We hope we never get there We really do Maria Uh but what we’re

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doing with the Houthis and what we’re doing in the region we’ve shown a capability to go far to go deep and to

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go big And again we don’t want to do that but if we have to uh we will to prevent the nuclear bomb in Iran’s hands

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Not only threatening not only undermining Woodco but wrong They did

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not go far deep and and have success uh with the Houthis Yeah this is this is

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like a coach at halftime um you know who’s down 20 to nothing um because his

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running game his running game has you know negative five yards uh saying we’re going to continue to pound it forward

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you know we’re going to pound away we’re going to wear him down we’re going to No Hexith you’re not you haven’t stopped

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the hoodie from launching you failed in every military objective that you’ve tried to meet you brought in B2s to drop

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the biggest conventional bombs we have on buried sites in Yemen and they didn’t make a dent They didn’t make a dent Pete

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and you know it And that was supposed to be the signal to Iran blowing up the Hoodi site saying “We can bring this now

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and take you out.” Now the Iranians know that every one of their underground sites are invincible to our conventional

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weapons So what are you going to go deep with Pete see that’s should have been the follow-on question I would have said you know Mr secretary that you don’t

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have a conventional weapon in your arsenal capable of destroying the buried Iranian nuclear facilities and if you

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don’t destroy them Iran will build a nuclear bomb despite your attacks So are you proposing that you’re going to use

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nuclear weapons and hit him with that one and see what he says peak heads this is the danger of forgive me having a

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lieutenant colonel doing a four-star general’s job This man just doesn’t have the experience He doesn’t have the gravitas He doesn’t have the depth to be

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doing this I I fully agree and and uh I feel badly saying it because I’ve known

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him so well We worked together for 10 years but it’s it’s true He shouldn’t be in that job But what would he have said

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if Maria Bartramo and I don’t think she would have asked him this I would have You would have Well how is it that the

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Israelis have a nuclear weapon mr Secretary how the hell could he have answered that well he would go with

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official American policy which is the if the Israelis have a nuclear capability it’s undeclared Neither we have declared

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it nor have the Israelis Um and you know that’s that’s how we’re going to leave

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it That’s been the official policy since 1969 not to acknowledge Israel’s nuclear weapons capabilities Hypocritical in the

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extreme and it undermines the credibility of the United States and everything we’re trying to do with Iran

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Iran has not violated the MPT Iran is allowed to do everything they’re doing right now under article 4 of the MPT

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which they are signitories to Iran has complied with its obligations under its safeguard agreements and additional

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protocols that have put in place Um but we have decided to interpret what Iran is doing as a threat to the state of

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Israel and therefore we deem that we can use military force to prevent Iran from developing this threat even though

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Iran’s official policy is not to have a nuclear bomb Um and yet Israel you have

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ministers saying “We could use a nuke against Gaza,” and then they have to be told “You’re not allowed to mention the nukes We don’t talk about the nukes.” Um

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everybody knows Israel has the nukes Uh it’s it’s hypocrisy in the extreme It undermines non-prololiferation policy

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and all it does is encourage nations to you know especially Israel’s neighbors who have you know perhaps hostile intent

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towards Israel to develop a nuclear deterrent to to the Israeli nuclear weapons Can Netanyahu stay in office if

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he’s not fighting a war i don’t believe so I think Netanyahu even even fighting

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a war I think he’s in a lot of trouble He’s in a lot of heat He’s b you know I think that’s one of the reasons why he

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came to the United States Um he was supposed to be in court um in one of these embarrassing you know national

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security related things And he just came to the United States because this is his old tactic This is what he did before

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You come to the United States and you wrap yourself in the American flag You get the photo op with the American president Um but it ended up making him

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look even weaker because he had to sit there and listen to the president say “Hell no we’re not going to war with Iran for you.” Um you know and then the

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president to reiterate that the future of Gaza is in America’s hands not in Israel’s hands Um these aren’t the

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things that uh a president like or a prime minister like Netanyahu want to hear Um this man is weak Um he his his

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government is collapsing You know the the the economy in Israel is in a lot of trouble I don’t know if you’ve seen the lines of people queuing up to get food

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rationing and um you know essential rationing because the Israeli economy is collapsing Nobody’s investing uh in that

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economy Um and he’s the prime minister in a failing state Um no he he can’t

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last He needs this war to um be able to manipulate public opinion

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sufficient to the point where he can maintain a a governing majority in the in the Knesset But um even now he’s he’s

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on the way down He’s in a death spiral How long he can sustain this death spiral I don’t know But um I I don’t

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think he recovers from this one big picture how dangerous is it to the United States for this extraordinary

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relation to have this extraordinary relationship with Israel this is the single most dangerous thing

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to to to America on a number of fronts Uh first of all Israel is getting us in

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wars we don’t need to fight There’s an Israeli hand in every major Middle East conflict we’ve been in Um and you know

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the blood of Americans you know are is spattered upon the Israelis who’ve been pushing us to do this ever since 911 Um

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so we’ve got that We’ve got the damage that’s been done to America’s reputation as being the only supporter of Israeli

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genocide Uh and so you know our our reputation abroad is shot We’re supposed to be the nation that stands for

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something Now I don’t know how much we can stand for when we illegally invaded and occupied Iraq and we’ve carried out

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our own war crimes in Afghanistan and elsewhere in Syria but at least you know we could pretend that we believe in

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something But now you know we’re providing open cover for Israeli genocide for the murder that Israel is

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committing against the Gazas on a daily basis But the greatest threat is here at home where we’re allowing the Israeli in

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the Israeli lobby to take control of concepts of freedom of speech freedom of

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assembly uh to criminalize thought Um what’s happening right now with the

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arrest of these foreign students who are simply doing what their American counterparts are doing the ones that

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have been arrested haven’t broke the law If it’s illegal to write an op-ed then man I belong in jail for four lifetimes

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If it’s illegal to you know articulate in favor of compromise and peace then I

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belong in jail Uh I’ve opposed American policy across the board I’m probably one of the greatest threats to American

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foreign policy that exists but because I’m an American citizen what I’m saying is allegedly protected by free speech We

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know it’s not The FBI kicked down my door and proved the falsehood of that But the Constitution clearly says that

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when you are in the jurisdiction of the United States free speech applies to you as well And because of Israel we’re

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chipping away at that This can’t happen ladies and gentlemen This is the greatest threat to the United States of

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America that there is Forget wars We can fight wars We can survive wars This is about attacking who we who we are what

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we stand for what we believe in The foundational principles of this nation are under attack by the state of Israel

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and its supporters here in the United States This is what’s going to destroy America

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Tell us about Highway to Hell Well making the shift Uh Highway to Hell

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is a book that um was was conceived uh back in the

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summer and fall of last year when I was convinced that we were literally on a highway to hell We were marching toward

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a nuclear confrontation uh with Russia Um I had actually done a draft of the

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book um when the FBI kicked down the door and took my computer and they took the draft with it Um and so I was Have

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they ever given it back to you no they haven’t given anything back to me They haven’t given my computers back They

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haven’t given my archive back They took my college honors thesis They took my fitness reports They took my entire life

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They took it and um they won’t even acknowledge now that they have it Um these are these are horrible human

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beings And I’ve I’ve petitioned Pam uh Bonding I’ve petitioned Cash Patel to do

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the right thing here And I’m I haven’t heard anything back from All right Back to the book which I was thrilled to read

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So you know if you’ve ever done some writing and um you know I don’t know whether it’s a letter or an op-ed and

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then the computer blanks out and you lose everything you wrote You know the empty feeling you have And that’s how I felt when they took my computer Uh and I

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was struggling on how to restart this book And then I I also took umbrage at the fact that they were calling me a

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Russian agent saying that the things that I wrote uh that I contributed to RT and Sputnik uh somehow was Russian

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propaganda And I read reread some of the articles I wrote on the threat of nuclear weapons on the need for arms

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control And then I started comparing and contrasting that with what I’ve been writing since 2015 on the same issue And

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I said it’s the same It’s it’s the same And I’m not going to stand for this for being called a Russian agent or having

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my work labeled as Russian propaganda So instead of rewriting this narrative I just collected all of the articles that

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I’ve written on the subject from 2014 till 2024 and uh put it in chronological

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order organized it by topics and um and and that’s what Highway the Hell is It’s

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a collection of uh articles that I’ve written over the years talking about the danger of nuclear war the need for arms

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control Um and there’s an added spin the importance of free speech Uh because

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it’s not just about me writing this It’s about Clarity Press my publisher having the courage to publish this at a time

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when the FBI was trying to shut me down saying that these articles are Russian propaganda And this was a brave Diana

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Collier the editor of Clarity Press deserves all the credit in the world for saying “No it’s not It’s the product of

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our author and we’re going to publish it.” So Highway to Hell is not only about warning about the dangers of

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nuclear war and the need for arms control but it’s also um a statement in defense of freedom of speech my ability

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to write and freedom of the press Clarity Press’s ability to publish Well I encourage everybody watching and

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listening to us now to buy this book and read it It’ll keep you up at night but

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it’ll make you a smarter wiser person certainly uh when the government tries to pull the

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wool over everyone’s eyes And thank you for what you said about the freedom of speech the uh

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Israeli machine in the United States is devastating Uh the freedom of speech and

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due process will be next Just today the president talked about sending Americans

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to prisoners in foreign countries where federal judges as we can see under our

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eyes today have great difficulty reaching them God forbid that that

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happens Scotty thank you for the warnings uh that you have issued Thank you for your uh time today Thank you for

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letting me take you all over the place on all these topics A great conversation and I’m deeply grateful for it all the

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best and a happy Easter an early happy Easter to you and your family Thank you very much and thanks for having me on

29:42

Pleasure my friend Coming up tomorrow uh a full day for you At 8 in the morning

29:47

Ambassador Charles Freeman at 11 in the morning from Beijing Who else pepe Escobar At 2 in

29:55

the afternoon Colonel Douglas McGregor At 3:00 in the afternoon Colonel Karen Qucowski at 4 in the afternoon I’m not

30:02

sure where he’s coming from Professor Jeffrey Saxs Judge Npalit Tano for judging freedom

30:14

[Music]

30:24

[Music]

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Ex-UN Official Reveals True Scope of Gaza Genocide Plans | Craig Mokhiber

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6sLz0lrg60)

Genocide has no speed limits nor time constrains. The two-year long slaughter of the Palestinians in Gaza is but the latest phase of a Holocaust that has been going on for nearly a century. The deliberate and collective plan to erase an entire people physically, culturally, and even strike them from the historical record is much older than “October 7”. The complete destruction of this ancient Arab civilisation is systematic and perpetrated not only by the Israelis. It’s the effort of white-settler colonial Europeans to pull off just one more time the annihilation of an indigenous population the way the European’s exterminated already three other continents.

Today I’m talking to Craig Mokhiber, the former Director of the human rights office at the UN Headquarters in New York, who in October 2023 quit the agency publically, over the already unfolding artrocities in Gaza and what most of us today recognize as the beginning of the Gaza Genocide.

Craig’s Article: https://mondoweiss.net/2025/04/yemen-…

Transkripzioa:

0:00

when they say we have shared values with Israel they don’t mean democracy and human rights I mean Israel has never

0:07

been a state which exemplified it’s not a democracy It’s an apartheid regime It’s a it’s an oppressive authoritarian

0:14

regime A large proportion of the people it controls live under a military dictatorship A large proportion of the

0:21

people who have a right to be a part of the polity are not even allowed to come home right uh from from the diaspora So

0:27

it’s never been a democracy It could never be a democracy unless it were to

0:33

abandon uh Zionist ideology and say yes as I have always advocated by the way we

0:38

need a single democratic secular state with equal rights for Christians Muslims and Jews But it will not do that because

0:45

that erases the whole project which is a a different ideological uh project um

0:51

altogether Um the enthusiastic support for that is because of shared negative values like colonialism like white

0:58

supremacy uh like the domination of the west over the rest of the planet

1:10

Hello everybody This is Pascal from Neutrality Studies and today I’m talking to Craig Mukber the former director of

1:15

the human rights office at the UN headquarters in New York who in 2023

1:21

quit the agency publicly over the already unfolding atrocities in Gaza and what most of us today recognize as the

1:28

beginning of the Gaza genocide The grim and horrendous situation in Palestine as well as the role of international law is

1:34

what we want to discuss today So Craig welcome Thank you Pascal Nice to be with you

1:40

Nice to have you because I’ve told you before but you’re one of these voices that dares to to speak out and you also

1:47

put things into an international law context which I appreciate very much Although there is people who say like um

1:52

the current situation shows that international law doesn’t matter I would disagree

1:57

Um but you’ve been you’ve been working in this field for 30 years Can we maybe begin with your assessment of the

2:04

situation have you ever seen um something that resembles the current situation in Palestine

2:11

i have not uh I’ve never seen a situation uh that resembles the current situation in Palestine And I’ve never

2:17

seen a situation not just in my 32 years at the UN but my 40 plus years in the international human rights movement

2:24

where the entire international legal regime the entire international human rights system was also so precarious uh

2:31

and rendered so precarious by the very situation that we’re talking about in uh in Palestine Uh there have been ups and

2:38

downs There have been difficult decades when even the UN at least the political

2:43

offices of the UN abandoned what was the more principled approach to Palestine

2:49

One based in international law one based in international uh human rights all in the name of this uh Oslo rouge this

2:56

amorphous political process that was never intended to and never could have delivered justice for the Palestinian

3:03

people at least not in a legal or a moral sense Um uh those were very difficult times as

3:09

well because the the international community lost the plot They forgot about the rights of the Palestinian people throughout all of those years Uh

3:16

but you know um you know there there is a there is a history before Oslo which is the entire

3:24

length of time from the beginning of the UN or the founding of you know the

3:29

destruction of Palestine in the Nakba and the founding of the state of Israel until Oslo started you actually had an

3:36

international community that was very focused on the rights of the Palestinian people their right to self-determination

3:42

um uh you know opposition to the colonization of

3:47

Palestine as well Zionism as a form of racism and and colonialism All of that

3:53

was pushed back uh onto the back burner and beyond by the Oslo process which I

3:59

think was exactly tactically what it was intended to do by many of its uh its

4:04

sponsors Well we have emerged from that Oslo has been left long ago in the dust

4:09

But what we’re seeing now is the culmination of an 80 plus year process

4:15

of genocide against the Palestinian people perpetrated not just by their

4:21

Israeli colonizers but also by the United States the United Kingdom Germany

4:26

and other complicit states and in the process the intential intentional

4:32

dismantling of what was a nent legal order set up brick by brick since the

4:37

second world war So no I’ve never seen a moment quite like this one in my lifetime This is a very sad assessment

4:44

but we do need to talk about the intricate role of the United Nations in the entire process because the the whole

4:52

the whole founding and the legal recognition in the UN by the of Israel

4:57

and the drecognition of the of the Palestinian territories or of Palestine and then the recognition of the

5:02

Palestinian territories as occupied and so on uh after 67 This is intricately always connected with the UN including

5:09

the the special agency UNRA that was supposed to be an aid network for

5:14

Palestinians So there have always been these two sides right and what is your assessment of the complicity or the

5:21

involvement let’s call it involvement of the UN in this entire uh catastrophe

5:28

well the UN has had a schizophrenic relationship with Palestine from the very start That’s because whenever you

5:33

talk about the UN I always remind people you have to say which UN you’re talking about If you’re talking about the

5:38

political corridors and some of the intergovernmental bodies uh they have been entirely complicit They share in

5:45

the original sin of the dispossession of the Palestinian people in the beginning of their long sustained Nakba since 1948

5:53

until today There was always another UN which was a UN made up of independent human rights mechanisms judicial

6:00

mechanisms like the international court of justice um uh you know special

6:06

reporters treaty bodies those sorts of things they have always taken a

6:12

principled law-based human rights centered approach to the question but their voice has never in the past

6:18

dominated now I have to say the volume of those voices is rising today uh in

6:25

ways that do provide some encouragement You know for the first time in history we’re

6:30

seeing holes in the wall of impunity that the West has built around uh their

6:35

Israeli project in uh in the Middle East You know Israel has enjoyed absolute impunity for its entire uh existence The

6:42

Israel exception is something that was born at the same moment that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

6:48

was born Right 1948 was when the declaration was adopted was also when that state was established by the west

6:55

uh and placed above international law and that impunity that wall of impunity has been defended ever since and it’s

7:01

been hard to you know break through and to try to see some light through that that wall of impunity but just in the

7:07

last year and a half while we have witnessed historic horror in Palestine

7:13

we have also witnessed the first glimmers of hope of accountability and of some change uh in in direction and

7:20

this I say because it is simply a fact that today Israel is on trial for

7:25

genocide in the International Court of Justice Its leaders are the subject of arrest warrants for crimes against

7:31

humanity including uh extermination in the international criminal court They

7:37

have been condemned their violations and crimes documented by every uh

7:42

independent international human rights mechanism at the United Nations They have been found by the International

7:47

Court of Justice and all human rights organizations with any kind of credibility at all to be perpetrating

7:53

apartheid across uh across the land Um uh and you know uh having found that the

7:59

occupation itself in the West Bank in in Gaza is entirely unlawful and must be

8:04

ended entirely and quickly This is a completely different world from where we

8:10

were just two years ago when Israeli impunity was absolute that impunity

8:16

continues and western support for that impunity continues which is why the impunity continues but it’s being

8:22

chipped away uh piece by piece and I think if we can continue a sustained movement for justice for human rights

8:30

for a norm-based international order over the brute use of force which is all we have witnessed um so far then there

8:37

is hope not just for accountability but for liberation for the Palestinian people okay I’m I’m glad to hear that

8:43

from you because Um some people get very cynical and say like look this proves

8:48

that uh human rights law and even humanitarian law you know doesn’t doesn’t work It’s just the the strong do

8:55

what they uh what they want and the weak suffer what they must But but we have

9:00

this humanitarian this human rights law now for 80 years and the situation would

9:06

be even worse if we didn’t I mean there is this second part of the UN right and the second part you know the the the

9:13

judicial part and the people like you who then also uh advocate for use Kogan’s norms and and for the overriding

9:20

power of those are standing contrast to the political bunch and of course the UN is both of course it is it’s it’s an

9:27

it’s a very very very imperfect organization but that’s that’s what we what we’ve got and um would do you think

9:35

that the the there will be UN mechanisms that will help in the end to to to end

9:42

this tragedy or do we have to look for other means like public opinion for

9:47

instance well all of the above Um you know I mean it’s true as the saying goes

9:53

that you know the master’s tools or the you know what is the saying from odd

9:59

lord that the master’s tools um can never be used to to to free you from the master I forget what the saying is

10:05

exactly the quote Um but they are one uh set of tools in in the toolkit Uh and

10:12

alongside political action alongside popular movements alongside legal action

10:18

um alongside things like boycott and devestment and sanction and protest and civil disobedience

10:24

um all and resistance you know all of these things taken together contribute to uh the the process of liberation One

10:33

of them on its own history tells us is is never enough But the collective force

10:38

of all of these things bring hope uh of some justice Um in the end I always

10:43

think about the South African apartheid case Uh I think it’s illustrative of the role that international law and

10:50

international institutions can play when operating in solidarity with an oppressed people um uh you know you had

10:57

a situation where right up through the 1980s uh countries like the United States and

11:03

others in the west were supporting the aparttheid regime in South Africa but the people in those countries organized

11:09

themselves churches and unions and uh uh social movements and others and they

11:16

eventually were you know were able to uh create enough pressure on their own

11:22

states that the policy of support for aparttheid side uh changed in the process They managed to isolate South

11:29

Africa so much that South Africa was feeling the bite despite the support it had from powerful um western states

11:36

through its economy uh through its cultural uh and sports activities and so

11:41

on that were excluded uh from global um uh from from global competition uh

11:48

diplomatically you know it did not have the respectable standing necessary to

11:53

negotiate for the kind of trade the kind of international uh relationships that a

11:59

state craves And so that was a bottom up you know starting with the resistance in

12:04

South Africa and then social movements across the west uh mobilizing in

12:09

solidarity with that resistance in South Africa ultimately changed official policy and in the process they used the

12:17

mechanisms of the UN human rights commission of the general assembly of the apartheid mechanisms that were

12:22

established uh there despite the fact that they couldn’t use the security council because of a US and UK veto

12:29

sound familiar so so no no one tool is enough to bring liberation but all of these together

12:35

will And I would say uh Pascal that the struggle for legitimacy is already been

12:41

won Most of the world including overwhelmingly the states of the world

12:46

that consistently vote on the side of Palestine that also intervene in cases in the International Court of Justice in

12:53

support of uh of Palestine most of the people of the world be beginning with but not stopping with the people of the

12:59

global south uh spreading across the west now young people Jews and

13:04

Christians and Muslims and agnostics and uh labor union activists and peace activists and human rights activists uh

13:11

you know across the board are in solidarity with the people of Palestine Most of those people express support for

13:18

the idea of an international order that is governed by the rule of law rather than or you know at least in part

13:24

governed by the rule of law rather than just brute force uh which is the reality that we’re seeing now So the the battle

13:30

for legit legitimacy is already won uh just that you know we we haven’t yet

13:37

overcome the oppressive imperial power of the United States and its closest uh

13:42

allies and the the the overwhelming military power uh of the state of Israel

13:48

Although we have seen in the last year and a half that that military power of

13:54

Israel is not as um impermeable is not as as uh overwhelming

14:01

as people once thought that uh you know that Israel is uh has a military that

14:08

could be defeated But long before that happens I think the struggle for legitimacy has

14:13

already been won Yeah Yes I mean I I see that too But you

14:19

know when we when we talk about the crime of genocide I mean there’s there’s different types of genocides right

14:25

there’s these very short outbursts of ultra high violence Um an example of that would be Rwanda of course Then

14:31

there’s the hidden type of genocide The Holocaust would be an example of that The Nazis didn’t try to tell everybody

14:37

that they were exterminating the Jews They tried to to hide it because they knew it was uh to the conscious of the

14:43

time um on also then it was unimaginable Um and then we have

14:49

open the most blatant form of genocide which is the one that we’re seeing with Gaza and in with Palestine in general I

14:55

mean you already put it into an 80-year perspective right it’s an 80-year ongoing process of uh transforming the

15:02

land of one people into the land of another people and get and and get rid of as many of the original people as you can And that is very reminiscent of the

15:10

kinds of genocides that happened in North America You know the fact the the matter of the fact is the North American

15:15

continent today is u mostly white and black because of uh slave slave labor uh

15:21

um slave slave that were brought over The indigenous population is is mostly wiped out So is Australia um good parts

15:29

of South America And that type of genocide is this kind of 150 200 year type of genocide that goes on right that

15:35

you need in order to to outroot um uh populations And um I fear that Israel is

15:43

still doing the long game and and trying just to you know whatever you can do at

15:48

what whichever point to to get rid of as many people as you can Um that that’s

15:53

that that’s what’s happening Um are you do you agree or do you see it differently of what the current plan is

16:00

because also the Oslo plan seems to have been you know just playing into that that long game

16:06

The Oslo is a is a very good example It never ever addressed the fundamental human rights of the Palestinian people

16:12

It never addressed the notion of equality It never addressed human rights inside the Green Line It never addressed

16:19

the right to return or or to compensation It never addressed the principle of racial equality uh inside

16:25

of Israel And even those things that it purported to address which is to say what’s happening in the occupied

16:31

territory that all turned out to be a lie It was it was more than anything else and I worked within the context of

16:38

the Oslo process and I was based in Gaza for two years during the the the Oslo process and lived there

16:44

Um uh you know even even that uh part of the the process was always just a tactic

16:52

for stalling for buying time as they expedited settlement expansion as they

16:58

expedited oppressive uh expanded oppressive laws across the West Bank uh uh the development of the Gaza Strip and

17:05

uh and so on The very logic of the Israeli state and of the Zionist project

17:11

that led to the creation of the Israeli state has always been annihilatory It

17:16

has always been as you point out the same kind of ideological project that we

17:21

saw in the destruction of the native peoples in the Americas and the settlement on top uh the eraser and

17:29

settlement on top of their lands and in Australia and in New Zealand and in uh plenty of other places Although it’s

17:35

interesting you know the the political alliances at the UN the so-called regional groups are all regional groups

17:42

except one which is the so-called WEOG group the Western Europe and other group

17:47

And the Western Europe piece of that is obvious but the other group is United States Canada Australia New Zealand and

17:55

Israel and for a time white South Africa uh when apartheid was still in place

18:01

which tells you that that we of the group is the only grouping uh diplomatic grouping in the UN that is not a

18:06

regional group it’s a white group and the shared ideology across that group uh

18:13

explains a lot about what is happening in Palestine in in Israel today you

18:18

cannot have you cannot uh have a settler colonial state where there is already a

18:25

population an indigenous population living and farming with their homes and their shops and their orchards uh and

18:31

their lives and their institutions and their churches and their mosques and their synagogues by the way Um uh and

18:37

then come in and say we’re going to build a state that is by and for a different group of people without having

18:45

an annihilatory plan without genocide The only place you could possibly do that would be on a colony on the moon

18:52

where there are as far as we know um no other people So this has always been a genocidal pro uh project Uh there is no

19:00

um speed limit in genocide you know upper or lower And what I have always

19:06

said is that what has been happening in Palestine since the 1930s and straight up until today has been genocide

19:14

In the 19 in 1947 and 1948 it was expedited genocide to try to purge the

19:20

land of as many Palestinians as possible and then to build um Israeli communities

19:26

on top of their of their ashes They then shifted and then there were peaks and

19:31

valleys in the genocide between then and now but they largely shifted to a strategy of incremental genocide after

19:37

that I say because it was more palatable for their western sponsors Because

19:42

Israel is a colony that could not survive without the support of its western sponsors originally the British

19:48

now especially um the United States And maintaining that lifeline of support

19:54

financial military diplomatic and so on depends upon how salailable the

20:01

product of Israel is in those western countries And so if you keep the genocide on a low boil then the

20:08

propaganda machines in the west can go to work and make sure that uh the suffering that’s going on there is not

20:14

quite so so evident what happened in uh October of 2023 actually in January of

20:21

2023 when the new government took over in Israel with a very extreme you know

20:26

openly fascist uh kind of a a coalition is that they bet that they could shift

20:32

back to expedited genocide and still maintain the support of the West And

20:37

they were right because while they were perpetrating this expedited genocide in

20:43

Palestine the arms continued to flow The money continued to flow The diplomatic

20:48

cover continued to flow The intelligence support continued to flow So they they

20:53

they backed the right horse They backed genocide which was always the the central purpose of the uh of the state

21:00

All genocides are different Uh the suffering of one people or another people can never be compared If you’re

21:07

being tortured you don’t care what the historical precedent is for it You just want the torture to stop to stop But

21:14

this is I I said uh already in October of 2023 when I wrote my letter to the UN

21:21

this is quintessential genocide The there has never been a clearer case since the term genocide was coined by

21:27

Rafael Lein uh and the genocide convention was adopted in 1948 There has

21:32

never been a clearer case because 80 years of impunity has convinced the

21:40

Israeli uh political leadership and military leadership and large swats of the public that they can do anything

21:47

that their impunity is absolute and that includes open genocide An open genocide

21:54

in which you publicly declare your genocidal intent not just some shock

21:59

jock radio uh personalities but the president the prime minister most of the

22:04

government uh ministers in in the cabinet the military leadership uh and

22:09

uh and others this is what’s unique as you as you hinted this is an open genocide it’s the sound of

22:16

impunity and while it has created horrors that we could not have imagined just a couple of years ago it has also

22:23

blown the lid off of the percolating incremental genocide that’s been going

22:29

on for 80 plus years uh and mobilized you know much of the public to struggle

22:36

against the genocide and against the regime itself I see it like that too In my mind we are currently midway 50%

22:44

through the the the complete genocide if it goes that route the first like 100 to

22:49

80 years and then another 80 to 100 to come and the last stage of genocide will

22:55

be the the the the universities in Tel Aviv requiring their their professors to

23:02

put little footers into their into their email saying like I recognize that these are the indigenous lands of Palestine

23:08

and you know it was a bad past we would never repeat it again right and thereby you you you clean your hands of the sins

23:14

of the forefathers I mean that’s what what happened to the Australians That’s what happened to uh to to the Canadian

23:20

uh uh indigenous population The the question to me is whether we are at a

23:26

point where you know this this white dominance this colonial dominance is

23:31

actually is actually ending and where this trajectory is not cannot be upheld anymore because as you said the the

23:38

global opinion is is is shifting But we can see how the structures the mechanisms of colonial suppression uh

23:45

propaganda suppression is kicking into gear again And it used to work very well back in the in the first part of this of

23:51

this prolonged genocide you know a a land without people for a people without a land That that that that was catchy

23:58

right and most of Europe actually bought into that for a long period of time And today you know this every every every

24:05

death in Gaza is on the at the hands of Hamas And by the way also every death in the West Bank and every every every um

24:11

executed um Palestinian medic is also in the hands of Hamas That it doesn’t have to ring to it anymore But you can see

24:19

how the system is trying to impose that especially inside the United States where now the US president is on a on a

24:24

war with its own constitution of who it applies to and who not How are you seeing that trajectory especially the

24:30

legal trajectory evolve well I think you’re right The legal trajectory is is important here you know

24:36

and again you know Aldra Lord’s um uh the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house I think I got it

24:42

right that time Um uh you know that may be true but some of them are very helpful And this is a perfect uh example

24:49

because you can you can use propaganda and you can tell blatant lies like a

24:56

land uh a land without a people for a people without a land Blatant lies that

25:01

anyone you know with a who who exercised a modicum of due diligence in research

25:07

would see that it was a flourishing society long before the Zionist idea was uh was born Um or you know Israel is the

25:15

only democracy in the Middle East um or any of these other lies human shields and so on They don’t hold up in court

25:22

They hold up in the the the uh allied

25:27

co-perpetrator governments of the United States and the United Kingdom and Germany and so on uh they hold up in the

25:34

complicit corporate uh media corporations that have uh have you know

25:39

willfully disseminated these lies but they don’t hold up in court because in court there are two things that get in

25:46

the way of that approach One is the law and one is the other is the facts You just can’t come in and say we are

25:54

exercising self-defense because in a court of law self-defense means something and you’re also going to have

26:00

to prove the facts Right so so this particular master’s tool is very

26:07

valuable in stripping away the propaganda and in doing so stripping away the political power of that

26:13

propaganda Look at what has happened over the course of the last year and a half You you have seen the wholesale uh

26:21

participation of large media corporations across the board in the West that have willfully disseminated

26:30

Israeli propaganda that have willfully disseminated justifications for war

26:35

crimes that have will willfully participated in the dehumanization

26:40

uh of the Palestinian people that have lied about what um Israel has done and

26:45

obscured about every every fact of what’s actually happening to the Palestinians over the entire length of

26:51

this expedited period um of the genocide and yet in spite of that the world is

27:00

you know most of the world is seeing the truth they’re seeing the truth uh

27:05

certainly because of alternative forms of media the kinds of programs that you and others put out social media you know

27:12

the cliche that this is the first live stream genocide is true We can all see

27:17

the reality of what’s happening on the ground on our own screens We can all get the information debunking the lies as

27:24

quickly as they’re told by the Israeli uh the Israeli regime We all have access to what’s happening in these

27:30

international tribunals serious legal processes with huge dossier setting

27:36

forth the evidence of the facts on the one hand and the requirements of the law on the other hand And suddenly it’s not

27:43

just he said she said It’s not just my government says and my media corporations say and therefore it has

27:50

some legitimacy but the truth is is peeking out from behind the wall of uh

27:56

of of propaganda and the legal mechanisms help in that whether that’s the work of independent special rapo

28:03

tours documenting the violations or the work of the international court of justice or international criminal court

28:10

deliberating on the facts uh and uh and on the law Um you know all of that is

28:16

helping to tear down a massive wall of of propaganda in the West And that’s why

28:23

because they can no longer count on controlling reality they’ve now moved to

28:29

force They’d now move to using the awesome police power of the state in places like Germany and the UK and the

28:36

United States to silence people to criminalize human rights defense to uh

28:44

erase free speech to erase academic freedom to erase advocacy for human rights all uh all of that uh to deport

28:52

people to arrest people to beat people in the streets simply for advocating for

28:57

human rights The reason they’ve moved into these brute fascistic tactics of of

29:04

suppression is because they have lost the ability to control the narrative and

29:10

which explains as well the attack on Tik Tok You know Tik Tok was never about oh they’re going to get the data of my

29:16

8-year-old who’s dancing dances on Tik Tok It was always a concern that you

29:21

know young people in particular could go to Tik Tok and they could see the truth of what was happening in Palestine

29:26

because it was so suppressed um uh elsewhere So they were forced then to move to just brute force in putting down

29:34

uh resistance to what is happening in uh in Palestine And while that is terrifying and dystopian

29:42

uh and is not over is continuing to grow in scope there is some light in that as well because it tells us that we have

29:49

moved past the moment in history where they could absolutely control the narrative That’s done

29:54

Yeah Yeah that’s true The narrative control has has has gone and you can try it how it the system is trying to

30:01

reestablish it Something that surprises me is that especially in this west I’m

30:06

so uh I’m so disillusioned you know like this this west that has all of these ideals and you know while Germany is

30:12

talking and Analena Berbog was talking about a a valuedriven foreign policy and so on the the the the way that they

30:22

adhere to this to this singleminded um support for Israel and for its uh uh

30:30

uh claimed right to self-defense and this going back to October 7th 2023

30:36

right like like a mantra like a like a prayer And you can see that in every single um TV show in in Europe or in the

30:44

US the first question of to you would be um are you condemning the the the

30:50

October 7th attack right that would be the first thing to do And something that we’re seeing right now is that these

30:55

same media is keep saying that um the the war in Gaza which started on October

31:01

7th when Hamas killed 100,200 Palestinians

31:06

uh,200 Israelis uh is now at a point where 50,000 Palestinians have died

31:11

Although these numbers by Hamas are never differentiate between fighters and and civilians while they themselves in

31:18

the same sentence do not differentiate you military of of Israel

31:23

and uh and civilians Um how do you explain to yourself that that the west

31:28

or a large part of it is still able to live with these cognitive discrepancies where they obviously obviously

31:34

contradict themselves within within even one single statement

31:40

Yeah there’s been a lot of that uh over the course of the last couple of years um in particular and I think that’s been

31:46

helpful too in stripping away the veneer of humane rhetoric that western leaders

31:52

like to use even as they participate in atrocities all around the globe as they have always done right you know the the

32:00

west the collective west in which you and I live you know is a place that invented Zionism it invented fascism it

32:07

invented Nazism it invented um uh colonialism and imperialism and now and

32:14

then it maps all of these concepts to the people that they used to historically suppress right oh no the Iranians are trying to take over the the

32:22

the West Asia Oh no the Chinese are being so colonial about it It’s it’s fantastic this projection of the worst

32:29

of the things that that we ourselves invented and and implemented It’s um

32:34

yeah I mean I think you know when when all of this uh began I I used to think

32:40

okay so the west for various reasons is complicit in the persecution of the Palestinian people and of the broader

32:46

Middle East you know the people of the of the broader Middle East but I I hesitate to use that term so broadly

32:51

anymore because I I I think the correct thing to say is they are co-perpetrators with Israel in the persecution of the

32:58

Palestinians None of this could continue for even weeks without the support of

33:06

these western powers right uh they are doing it on purpose They are

33:12

enthusiastic participants in the project that is uh that is Israel and Israel

33:18

cannot exist without destruction Um uh it’s you know it’s it’s whole the the

33:24

whole ideology of the state and of the nation is one that says our security

33:29

comes from wiping out everyone else around us because otherwise their very existence is a threat to our national

33:37

myth to what it is that we uh that we aspire to um and and the enthusiastic

33:44

participation of that by the Americans and the Brits and the the Germans and others shouldn’t be a surprise

33:50

uh to us because they have the same colonial history They share uh a kind

33:57

they when they say we have shared values with Israel they don’t mean democracy and human rights I mean Israel has never

34:04

been a state which exemplified it’s not a democracy It’s an aparttheid regime It’s a it’s an oppressive authoritarian

34:12

regime A large proportion of the people it controls live under a military dictatorship a large proportion of the

34:18

people who have a right to be a part of the polity are not even allowed to come home right uh from from the diaspora So

34:24

it’s never been a democracy It could never be a democracy unless it were to

34:30

abandon uh Zionist ideology and say yes as I have always advocated by the way we

34:35

need a single democratic secular state with equal rights for Christians Muslims and Jews But it will not do that because

34:42

that erases the whole project which is a a different ideological uh project um

34:48

altogether Um the enthusiastic support for that is because of shared negative values like colonialism like white

34:54

supremacy uh like the domination of the west over the rest of the planet Uh all all of

35:02

these things uh are shared are shared values And um you know the the lie of

35:08

self-defense that you mentioned as well This is another example where a court of law is very helpful because Israel has

35:15

always used this in its propaganda in the West Well it’s just self-defense But the minute you begin to unpack it in

35:21

court you realize one they have no right to claim self-defense in the territory

35:27

that they unlawfully occupied Because that’s the equivalent of me coming to your

35:32

house beating up your family When you fight back I shoot you and I say I shot you in self-defense That’s not

35:39

self-defense in international law Your your remedy for any threat you feel for

35:45

me is to get the hell out of my house That’s your remedy in international law right so you can’t claim self-defense

35:51

for that Secondly every time Israel claims to be acting in self-defense it’s

35:57

it’s with regard to a situation where it has perpetrated war crimes crimes against humanity acts of genocide

36:04

No uh claim of self-defense overcomes the illegality of those actions You

36:10

cannot commit genocide in self-defense and pretend that that is some kind of legal or I guess moral uh justification

36:17

And yet this is paredited not just by western governments when those false claims are made but it’s pared by

36:23

Western media corporations and other elites in in society all of whom are just instinctively aligned with this

36:31

racist project in the heart of the uh of the Middle East They see Europeans they

36:36

see white people and then they see people that have been dehumanized in their media and in their culture for

36:42

centuries meaning the Palestinian people the Arab people the Muslim people Christian Arabs whatever Uh and it’s

36:49

easy for them to make a choice The Israelis must be the good guys because they look like us

36:54

And indeed many ways they do It’s very sad and it’s very true I think you’re you’re right It’s an instinctive it’s an

37:00

instinctive allegiance of of a lot of people who just instinctively uh uh uh identify with one group and not the

37:06

other and therefore then build their their their narrative structure around it the way that they understand the

37:12

world Um the court of law is like it’s very interesting because most people associate it with justice but you just

37:20

also mentioned and another guest on my show just just recently mentioned um cleia Davids there’s another function

37:26

and that’s truth and that’s finding out what happened and maybe much more than

37:31

justice at the moment the international legal system actually is delivering you know uh a very very sad um historical uh

37:41

account of what is actually going on How long do you think this will take until

37:46

it it it actually translates into some sort of um verdicts because the ICJ case

37:52

is now 1 and a half years in the making almost Um how long will that still take

37:58

until until the ICJ actually goes comes down and will will render first real verdicts because what we have so far is

38:03

only um um what are they called um um measures um provisional measures

38:09

Provisional measures right yeah I mean these cases typically take years uh before you get a final

38:16

resolution and that’s a that’s a part of the problem of the international system as it’s been established because you know this whole case is based upon a

38:23

particular treaty the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide The punishment piece is easy

38:31

after the blood has dried you can identify the perpetrators find ways to hold them to account The prevention part

38:37

is the part that the international community has never found an effective way of addressing because you know this

38:45

genocide is ongoing It’s been ongoing as I said for 80 years but it’s been ongoing at an expedited level now for a

38:51

year and a half uh roughly And um and what you want are mechanisms that can

38:56

respond immediately But um that’s the problem You’ve got a defective international

39:03

system that is based upon the principle of exceptionalism First with the five

39:10

permanent members of the security council who have veto power in the only

39:15

institution at the international level that has enforcement power So what normally happens is that you know the it

39:22

should already be the case that the international court of justice and the other mechanisms have already rung the

39:28

alarm bells officially of at least the risk of genocide Even more than that a

39:34

plausible genocide is underway and here are the provisional measures that need to be enforced to stop it from

39:39

continuing In the normal course of business it is the job of the security council to then enforce that to use

39:46

chapter 7 and all of its powers of enforcement uh to mobilize states

39:52

including if necessary armed force to end the perpetration of this crime of uh

39:58

of this crime of crimes The United States says no that’s it for the security council They cannot move And

40:05

the United States imagine a co-perpetrator in the genocide in the international system has the authority

40:11

to say you you can’t stop it I won’t allow you to stop it Right so then

40:16

what’s supposed to happen is it goes to the general assembly and the general assembly can convene in an emergency

40:22

special session under the uniting for peace resolution and it can take action to enforce international peace and

40:29

security and to respond to what the intern what the uh international court of justice has said the general assembly

40:35

can uh can respond to that Now they’ve done some of that They’ve adopted a

40:40

historic uh implementing resolution on uh the advisory opinion of the

40:46

International Court of Justice on the illegality of the occupation and on the provisional measures uh in in the

40:52

genocide case but they have not gone far enough They could mandate a protection

40:57

force It’s been done before by the General Assembly They could put in place detailed uh sanctions regimes They can’t

41:06

enforce them but they can put in put them in place and then call on all the member states especially those who vote

41:12

for it to implement those sanctions um uh regimes They can call for a military

41:17

embargo and then put detailed uh provisions in place They could revitalize the old mechanisms of uh the

41:24

anti-apartid mechanisms and so on that were so effective in working in solidarity with the people in uh in in

41:31

South Africa Um because the only thing that is going to

41:37

stop this is the isolation of the Israeli regime in the way that South the South African regime was isolated

41:44

Remembering again that the South African regime had the support of the United States right up until apartheid fell and

41:51

you know had Nelson Mandela registered as a terrorist years after apartheid had

41:56

fallen and he was elected as a um as a president So

42:01

um so a part of the system has been constructed to be intentionally to be

42:08

ineffective when one of the P5 doesn’t want it to be effective but the other parts of the system have grown uh

42:15

throughout the decades and there are possibilities there and you know you

42:20

talk about the the case for the facts there are mountains of documentation

42:26

uh and evidence that have been accumulated decade after decade by the independent human rights mechanisms of

42:32

the United Nations that are court ready and indeed they have fed in to the the

42:37

cases in the international court of justice First the case on the apartheid of all in the West Bank then the

42:43

genocide case then the case on the occupation and so on You know all of the evidence and documentation is is there

42:51

uh there are precedents uh for universal jurisdiction being applied in the courts

42:57

of uh third states uh because these are crimes against humanity These are crimes

43:02

of universal jurisdiction uh and so on So action could be taken there There is nothing to stop the general assembly

43:08

from establishing a dedicated international tribunal for criminal accountability for Israeli um uh

43:14

perpetrators You know there there are lots and lots of possibilities Some of them have already been mobilized Others

43:20

I think are in the pipeline But in the end it is global civil society global movements it is ordinary people that

43:27

will make the demands on governments individually and collectively

43:34

uh that will make the difference in in making sure that we have that breakthrough Now I realize that if you

43:39

are sitting in Gaza and you’re listening to this conversation and we’re talking about hope down the road today now this minute

43:48

my children are being murdered My family members are being tortured and sexually

43:53

assaulted in Israeli torture camps My homes and schools and hospitals and mosques and churches and food stores are

44:01

all being destroyed in a genocidal campaign None of this provides the kind of light that is uh that is needed Uh

44:08

but that global movement is the only hope that we have and the legal portions

44:13

of that global movement are an important piece of it Yes Yes And look the I would

44:21

say it’s definitely too late for the native inhabitants of North America It’s

44:27

definitely too late for the aboriges of Australia to help them uh Palestine is

44:34

on I don’t know It might go either way right if Israel has its way and it gets

44:40

it either kills even much more of the Palestinians or it gets it get in

44:45

conjunction now with the United States the the idea seems to be to uh ethnically cleanse Palestine right and

44:51

just take these pe 2 million people and then put them into 125 different countries small groups each and and then

44:59

rinse and repeat in the West Bank right this is obvious is obviously what what has to happen next If that succeeds then

45:05

well um I don’t know what the next step what the next step would be Um Palestine

45:11

still wouldn’t go away legally would it no Palestine will not go away Uh Israel

45:18

will not achieve legitimacy or legality through any of those measures The United

45:23

States of America with all of its imperial power doesn’t have the right to dictate what international law says So

45:29

when they do unlawful things like recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel or recognizing Israeli

45:36

sovereignty over the Goland Heights or any of these other insane moves that the US government has made they have no force in international law All they the

45:44

only power they have is to make themselves complicit in international uh internationally unlawful

45:50

acts So I don’t think that the world is going to forget about Palestine or is

45:56

going to forget about international law I don’t think so I don’t think that the Israeli project can be sustained in the

46:02

long term I think that if I were an Israeli I’d be working like hell to

46:08

abandon the colonial uh and racist project that has been political Zionism

46:14

and to try to adopt a more humane modern law-based human rightsbased approach to the future One that sees everyone as

46:23

equal One that sees an obligation of compensation one that sees an obligation

46:28

of allowing people to return home one that believes in principles of democracy

46:33

meaning for everybody Uh because you cannot sustain by force I mean history has shown us

46:40

this again and again You can sustain a colony by force for a long time but you

46:47

can’t sustain it forever And you already see the desperation of

46:52

the Israelis in in not only trying to use force against the indigenous people

46:58

of Palestine but turning their weapons against the entire region Are they

47:03

really going to defeat the entire region you know at the moment virtually every government in the region has either been

47:10

captured and corrupted by the West principally the United States or it’s been destroyed by the West uh for having

47:17

an independent policy for standing up uh against the United States and for the

47:22

Palestinian people and others All you have left are you know Iran half of Yemen and half of Lebanon The rest have

47:29

all been effectively captured uh or or crushed if they weren’t captured and

47:34

thus Syria and thus Libya and thus u and so on Um but the people of the

47:43

region are not captured the the the deeply felt solidarity of the people of

47:50

the Arab region their anti-imperial and anti-colonial instincts not just of

47:55

their parents and grandparents who lived through colonialism but of young people

48:00

who have a revulsion to what it is that Israel is doing and what it represents what the western powers are doing and

48:06

and what they represent Uh they’re not going anywhere And uh you know if I were you

48:14

know the head of one of these governments I wouldn’t sleep well ever Yeah

48:19

uh because you can you can only maintain by force that and you’re right you raised the model of the United States

48:24

and and Australia Um that’s exactly what the Israeli leadership is thinking They’re thinking we have to get rid of

48:30

all of the Palestinians otherwise they will always uh be a threat We can’t win without genocide And I think that’s

48:37

that’s exactly what’s motivating them now But um uh you know they’ve got a

48:42

very powerful couple of friends but they’ve got the rest of the world against them um voices on the other side

48:49

of the of the corridor often hold against this that Israel has successfully integrated a good number of

48:54

Palestinians you know with Israeli passports into their own society and that this is proof that this is working

48:59

very well and it’s it’s a equal society and and democratic and flourishing Um

49:04

can you can you speak to that black South Africans also were integrated into the apartheid society African-Americans

49:11

under Jim Crow were integrated into the society It’s a lie If you are a Palestinian living inside the Green Line

49:18

in Israel you do not have the same rights You live under an apartheid regime uh you have some rights but you

49:24

don’t have the same land rights you don’t have the same economic rights you don’t have the same residency rights you

49:31

don’t have the same citizenship Um uh you I mean you don’t have the same nationality So you know to

49:37

avoid um uh this problem of apartheid they put your religion in place of where your your nationality is Uh you don’t

49:46

have the same marital rights You don’t have I mean across the board you’re not even secondass uh citizens You are you

49:52

are an undesirable uh outsider in your own land So your

49:58

family has lived in that village in historic Palestine which is now where is

50:04

now Israel inside the green line for centuries if not millennia And yet every single day you

50:12

are told this is a state for Jewish people It is not a state for indigenous

50:18

Palestinian people You are not a part of this at all you can vote right although

50:23

you don’t have the same level of representation in the parliament in uh in the end Um but uh you you you don’t

50:31

have any of the of the economic and land and and other rights housing rights and other rights that that people have um if

50:40

they just happen to be born into another ethnic group So it’s it’s a lie It’s a

50:46

it’s a it’s a charade that Israel has played for many many years now there is no equality Uh equality is uh a direct

50:56

contradiction to the ideology of the state Maybe nationality law that makes this

51:02

perfectly clear This is not just the attitudes of the people This is written into the apartheid laws of the of the

51:08

state maybe one of one of my final points Um you wrote an article recently about uh

51:16

Yemen’s blockade of Israeli ports and how actually Yemen or um Ansarala uh is

51:24

the Houthis are um are acting in accordance to international law and how it is the United States that’s breaking

51:30

international law by trying to stop them from uh from inter intercepting uh

51:35

Israeli and Israelbound ships Uh can you can you quickly explain that that concept and because it’s especially

51:41

important a lot of people think that um you know the UN is the is the one agency

51:47

that can mandate such things but your argument is no there’s a higher law they use Kogans that actually gives um that

51:54

that mandates what has to happen right and those those highest level

51:59

international laws are above the security council the security council was established by the UN charter the UN

52:05

charter is a treaty that is a part of international law It is not above international law and principles that

52:10

are so-called use kogans and era amnes uh just forget about the the

52:16

technicality but these highest level international norms of international law the security council has no authority to

52:21

supersede them ever So now you’ve got a case where the US is bombing Yemen

52:26

because Yemen is required uh is acting as required by international law It’s it it explicitly set up this blockade to

52:35

prevent ships from resupplying a genocide and an unlawful siege in

52:41

Palestine And its position was reinforced by the International Court of Justice in its findings on the

52:46

illegality of the occupation and in the genocide case Both of which said that

52:52

all states have an obligation not to be supplying the unlawful occupation uh in

52:58

Palestine and not to be supplying the the genocide So Yemen is the only country that has taken concrete material

53:04

action to stop this from happening and the US is bombing them for it Right uh

53:10

you won’t hear this in the western media that tells a a lovely fantasy but that’s the reality of what’s happening on the

53:16

ground and it’s not you know I’m not guessing here Uh Houthi Yemen has said this is why they’re doing it and they

53:23

stopped the blockade during the ceasefire period demonstrating that they were sincere Right so while the

53:29

ceasefire was in place they stopped it They returned that blockade against ships resupplying the Israeli regime

53:35

only when Israel resumed the unlawful siege in the Gaza Strip and resumed the full-scale genocide in in the Gaza Strip

53:43

Um you know Houthi Yemen is acting under obligations that bind all states and it

53:50

was working they bankrupted the Israeli port of Elat uh you know through through

53:55

the use of this and and in doing so I think uh they weren’t able to stop

54:01

Israel’s crimes but they were complicating Israel’s capacity to perpetate perpetrate those uh to per

54:07

perpetrate those crimes and that’s what they’re they’re being bombed for So the US on the other hand every attack that

54:15

it has waged on Yemen has been an act of aggression and therefore unlawful and

54:23

the very idea of attacking the blockade is a is the crime of complicity and genocide because we know the genocide is

54:29

ongoing and they’re attacking the blockade in order to defend the uh the gen the genocide So if you were to

54:35

follow what western uh governments are saying or western corporate media they would say you have these lawless Yemenes

54:43

and we are going to defend the law which is amazing because they invoke the law of the sea which Yemen has ratified the

54:50

convention and the United States has not Yeah Just to show you how absurd it is Um uh but in fact it’s completely the

54:57

reverse Yemen is acting as international law requires to stop supplying to the

55:04

genocide and the unlegal occupation and the US is committing uh a crime of

55:10

aggression in order to stop Yemen from uh from from doing that and you know in

55:16

the process lying about its own they learned well from the Israelis the US is claiming self-defense they have no claim

55:22

to self-defense halfway around the world because some not even its own merchant

55:27

ships that were not they were not fly flying US flags uh were hit Uh and they

55:33

try to claim that a resolution that was adopted in January of 2024 gives them an authorization for use of force It

55:39

absolutely does not There’s no authorization for the use of force in that uh resolution from January of 2024

55:45

So that’s it in a nutshell And uh I wrote the article because I was sick of seeing all the misrepresentations that

55:52

dominated the western narrative on this I’ll link the article in the description And you know this this is very important

55:58

because again like some people go very uh uh uh fatalistic and say like international law doesn’t matter and yes

56:03

international law is not able to stop the genocide That’s true But there are these there are these long-term

56:09

processes and use Kogan’s norms are nothing that even the United the only

56:15

thing that could somehow change it is if all states together say like um we don’t care about this anymore We adopt

56:21

something else and they do that over a a progressive a long time I mean even a UN resolution wouldn’t be enough because it

56:26

needs to be sustained over over a long period So this is kind of a consensus This is the the closest thing we have to

56:32

a global consensus a human 8 billion people consensus on how we would like to treat each other right or what are the

56:39

what are the minimal norms and that that Israel is not able to override that or

56:44

the United States are not able to override that is very important and it will matter down the road and the

56:50

security council was not able to override that by the way I mean no political power

56:55

raw power is not able to override it because it’s actually a shared a shared norm that that just a lot of people a

57:01

lot billions of people agree upon um the um I I wanted to connect this to

57:08

something and that was um the the way in which of course this

57:14

justification for war then then and and and genocide happens and that it is getting more and more transparent that

57:20

these are empty uh justification and yes power is able to do what power does but

57:26

it is not able to capture the the entire system Um do you think that we were we are able

57:33

to improve human rights law and humanitarian law based upon these horrible experiences here

57:40

i think the law is pretty good I mean f first of all this entire system is still nent We think that 80 years is a long

57:47

time in the history of the world It’s not And so the system that has been built up since the you know what what

57:54

happened before uh the second world war and and and before is very new and it’s

57:59

very incomplete Uh there are a series of building blocks So there’s a there there’s a very good set of international

58:05

norms and standards defined in treaties uh and all areas of human interaction interaction between states and so on

58:12

There are monitoring mechanisms that are set up to tell us what’s really happening So you don’t have to listen to

58:19

BBC or CNN or Fox News that are just spewing propaganda but you can actually

58:24

have you know expert analysis with evidence presenting what’s actually happening because we have special raors

58:31

and commissions of inquiry and treaty bodies and other mechanisms that are uh that are documenting um all of it You

58:38

have very clear uh admonitions coming out of these mechanisms This is you know including

58:44

from the international courts and and from these other mechanisms This is what is required of states This is what’s not

58:50

permissible and so on The only gap I say the only gap which is the most important

58:56

piece is enforcement Yeah The the the problem of the international system is

59:02

that all enforcement you know um was vested in this mechanism called the

59:08

security council Yeah which is nothing more than a victor’s panel from World

59:16

War II that the five victorious countries were given exceptional power and that they could use that exceptional

59:22

power for countries um for other countries like Israel to make sure that

59:28

it it sits above the law So what do we need to fix we need to fix enforcement

59:34

and in doing so we need to think about our own power We need to think about how popular mobilizations how political

59:41

movements and social movements how labor unions how uh peace movements and justice movements uh how protest and

59:49

demonstrations and boycott and devestment and sanction and education and civil disobedience and um uh and

59:57

lawful armed resistance which is also codified in international law um uh you

1:00:04

know and the use of international mechanisms in the struggle for legitimacy So the international criminal

1:00:09

court the international court of justice the things that are the security council is not available to us Yeah But

1:00:14

everything else is and that’s where enforcement will come from It will come from the demands of people inside their

1:00:21

own countries that make it not sustainable for their governments to continue uh down the same path I wonder

1:00:27

about that too because like you know the problem with enforcement from above If you create an organization that then has

1:00:32

the right to use military means in order to go and intervene is that if you just change the decision-making body over

1:00:37

here then you have again a war making war making institution Right we need some form of enforcement from below in

1:00:44

in accordance with the spirit of international human rights law because human rights law is first and foremost

1:00:49

the the right of the citizens against the state Right you cannot do this with me Of course the problem is uh on on on

1:00:56

the bottom you always you are exposed to the power which is concentrated on on on the top and we don’t have mechanisms for

1:01:02

that I mean we have people power and kind of you know resistance and so on but we don’t have proper mechanisms the

1:01:08

way that a police force is a mechanism Yeah But you know think I mean I I grew up in the US and I was saying the other

1:01:15

day that every day that I have been alive United States has been at war Yes And in every case that it’s been at war

1:01:22

because I I was born after World War II it was perpetrating aggression It was

1:01:27

always on the wrong side uh of that And then you can you know you can either

1:01:33

like feel a sense of hopelessness for that Or you can remember those moments like the movement in the US against US

1:01:41

aggression in Vietnam the antivietnam war protests of the late 60s and early

1:01:46

70s that created an internal pressure that at some point the government and

1:01:52

the and the powers that we could no longer ignore uh or in the 1980s you

1:01:58

know also during my life in the struggle against apartheid that created an internal pressure that could no longer

1:02:04

be uh ignored I’m saying not that we will win but it’s our job to try and

1:02:10

just as those social movements made a difference in US war against Vietnam just you know too late after you know

1:02:18

horrendous genocidal violence was perpetrated by American forces in Vietnam and in Cambodia

1:02:23

um um but it did you know culminate in a change in in policy that ended that

1:02:29

aggression and the same thing in South Africa and I believe that this one is harder but it’s what we have and we have

1:02:37

to make it work so I’m with you enforcement from below uh the movement is growing no question about it the

1:02:43

movement is growing in leaps and bounds like it never has before Israeli impunity is being eroded in ways that

1:02:49

has never been eroded before uh the US star is declining The unipolar moment is

1:02:56

over US empire is in decline Yes that empire can do a lot of damage on the way

1:03:01

down It can bring a lot of people with it uh a as it declines But new

1:03:07

multilateral um uh developments are starting to

1:03:12

provide some window of change The bricks obviously is one of them again brand new

1:03:18

nent weak challenged but it shows that um you know uh imperial dominated

1:03:26

mechanisms at the international level are not the only option the HEG group brand new group of nine countries that

1:03:33

have committed themselves to uh enforcing the findings of the international court of justice and the

1:03:39

general assembly not to allow not their ports will not allow ships to be resupplying the Israeli genocide and and

1:03:46

occupation for example uh you know a general upswell the US if you look at

1:03:51

voting records in the UN is isolated they’re isolated on on Palestine on a host of other issues but especially on

1:03:58

uh on Palestine And so I I I finish here where I began which is that overwhelmingly most states in the world

1:04:05

overwhelmingly most of the people in the world all of the international human rights institutions the international

1:04:12

judicial institutions all of humanity is lined up on the side of justice of human

1:04:19

rights of the Palestinian people Um and uh that’s not nothing

1:04:26

That’s something to build on That’s something to build on Uh Craig you are a very well articulated and very

1:04:33

insightful uh guest So thank you very much for your time today Oh it’s my pleasure Pascal Thanks for everything

1:04:39

you do

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