Israel, AEB eta NATO zale estatu guztiak errudun, Palestinaren genozidioan (10) eta Francesca Albanese

US President Harry Truman (1945-1953) stands next to a map showing the State of Palestine.

Israel is not real.

UN General Assembly overwhelmingly calls for end of Israeli occupation

Justintime@tykestakeonit

aza. 21

BBC 6 o’clock news.

The ICC arrest warrant wasn’t even mentioned in their headlines.

The BBC isn’t fit for purpose.

SCRAP IT.

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The Saviour@stairwayto3dom

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aza. 22

After arrest warrants for war criminals Netanyahu & Gallant, Israeli forces escalated mass killings of civilians in Gaza. At least 9 massacres were documented In Al-Shuja’iya, the entire Abu Asr family was killed, while in Al-Nuseirat, the Al-Hour family suffered the same fate

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1859839237509836923

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Howard Beckett@BeckettUnite

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1859834726426829017

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Peter Daou@peterdaou

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1859761594823299229

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

Francesca Albanese Slams the United States for Enabling Israel’s Actions in Gaza and Lebanon

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq0UeSygcak)

Transkripzioa:

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Genocide as Colonial Erasure (w/ Francesca Albanese) | The Chris Hedges Report

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfDPD9mxv4)

Chris Hedges and the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Francesca Albanese, discuss her new report for the UN which details the context behind October 7, the increasing hostility in the West Bank and the urgent need for the international community to halt Israel’s genocide.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

[Music]

0:10

the latest United Nations report by Franchesca albanesi the special rur on

0:15

the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since

0:20

1967 argues that the violence Unleashed against the Palestinians after October

0:25

7th is not happening in a vacuum but is part of a long-term in intentional

0:31

systematic State organized Force displacement and replacement of the

0:36

Palestinians the report details how the ongoing genocide against the Palestinians is accelerating in large

0:44

part because of the complicity and indifference of the International Community the report released Monday

0:51

argues that if not halted the Mass Slaughter and displacement in Gaza of its 2.3 million residents tactics

0:59

increasingly being replicated in the occupied West Bank jeopardizes the very

1:04

existence of the Palestinian people in Palestine it concludes with an urgent appeal to member states in the United

1:11

Nations to intervene before Palestinians especially those in Northern Gaza which

1:16

Israel appears intent on fully depopulating and annexing are driven from their Homeland this intervention

1:24

must the report states include a full arms embargo and sanctions against

1:29

Israel in until the mass killing of Palestinians is halted a permanent ceasefire is in place and Israeli

1:36

occupation forces and Jewish colonists withdraw from occupied Gaza and the West

1:42

Bank including East Jerusalem absent this the report recommends that Israel

1:47

be formally recognized as an apartheid state and persistent violator of

1:52

international law reactivating the UN special Committee Against apartheid to

1:58

address the situation in Palestine and potentially suspend Israel’s membership

2:04

in the United Nations joining me to discuss her report is Franchesca

2:09

albanesi Franchesca the report is devastating as is of course every Daily

2:14

Report out of Gaza and the West Bank you write quite do a lot of research out of the West Bank as well uh I want to begin

2:22

with kind of the broader implications of Israel’s genocide uh

2:28

which is at the conclusion of your report before we go into the specifics which is at the front of your report uh

2:34

you note in the report that since your last report and despite the

2:39

international court of justice interventions genocidal acts have in

2:45

your words proliferated nearly a year of scorched Earth assault has led to the calculated destruction of Gaza the human

2:53

material and environmental cost is unquantifiable uh in in in essence what

2:59

you’re saying is that as horrible as things

3:04

were uh it is steadily getting worse and worse for the

3:12

uh Palestinians um so let’s talk a little bit about uh the trajectory you were one of

3:21

the first uh coming out you know official uh investigators and of course

3:27

we should be clear you’re banned from uh working in the occupied territories by

3:32

the Israeli government but I believe you are one of the first to raise the issue of genocide which is now of course not

3:40

disputable um but let’s talk a little bit about globally uh the trajectory over the last

3:47

and now it’s more than a year what’s what’s been happening thank you chis um

3:52

yeah as it ofen happens genocide is uh is is not an act it’s it’s it’s a

3:59

process it’s a very complex crime to identify but it’s it has a collective

4:06

Dimension and um and it it it builds on

4:11

it’s made of criminal acts but what keeps everything together is the intent

4:19

to destroy through this criminal act a group in whole or in part and this is

4:26

what we have seen happening in Gaza as as of uh as of uh the beginning of no

4:33

October i’ I’ve said it’s October 9 where things became

4:40

undeniably genocidal where there was a genocidal intent expressed the word Amal

4:47

in my view is the most telling of all because Amal is a Biblical

4:53

um a biblical term that has been evoked primarily by Netanyahu but then by by

4:59

others and by the soldiers who have been acting as uh willful executioners of

5:05

that plan that call Amal which in the Bible is uh go and destroy the amalec

5:13

the mother the suckling the donkey the camel everything and and this is what

5:18

has been happening in Gaza uh the acts of killing the the mass killing uh the

5:26

infliction of psychological and physical torture the devastation the creation of

5:32

the of conditions of life that would not allow the people in Gaza to live uh from

5:38

the destruction of hospitals the mass Force displacement and the mass homelessness while people were being

5:44

bombed daily um and the starvation how can we read these acts as in in

5:52

isolation we need to to take a step back look at the hall and see what has

5:59

happening as uh as there is no other reasonable

6:04

uh inference that that can be that can be drawn even without looking at the at

6:10

the intent as expressed by the use of the word Amal which is like um uh chop

6:17

the the the the the tall trees in uh in Rwanda this is the term that has marked

6:25

this genocide so Franchesca you you make the point that in order to categorize what’s

6:32

happening as genocide there are innumerable factors Mass killing

6:37

extermination or an act of extermination in and of itself doesn’t necessarily

6:42

constitute genocide you write in the report uh that the destruction of Gaza

6:49

uh has raised allegations of what you call domicide herbicide scolastici side

6:57

medicide cultural Geno side and Eco side

7:02

and then you note nearly 40 million tons of debris including unexploded ordinance

7:08

and human remains contaminate the ecosystem over 140 waste sites and

7:14

340,000 tons of waste untreated Wastewater and sewage overflow

7:20

contribute to the spread of diseases such as hepatitis A respiratory infections diarrhea and skin diseases as

7:27

Israeli leaders promised Gaza has been made unfit for human life so all all of

7:33

these we’re going to talk about in detail you you document what’s happening in detail but just talk about the the uh

7:42

the complete uh eradication uh that raises what’s happening to the Palestinians to the

7:48

level of genocide absolutely in fact what constitutes

7:54

genocide is a specific number of criminal Acts

8:00

uh like I mentioned acts of killing uh kingling members of the group when the

8:05

group is identified as a uh through four main criterias uh ethnical uh racial

8:13

National or religious and the group is targeted as such this is the critical

8:19

element and then there are as I was saying acts of killing infliction of

8:25

severe uh bodily or mental harm the creation of condition of life that will

8:31

lead to the destruction of the group and then there are other other two crimes that I’m not saying are have not uh are

8:39

not present in or have not occurred in in Gaza simply have not have not had the

8:47

elements to investigate that although one regrettably so the the prevention of

8:52

birth I do think that this is an area that urges um ad hoc

9:00

investigation um because the way Israel has steadily even before October 2023

9:07

targeted children is revealing of of anonymous or a mindset to Target the

9:16

Palestinians from the ve very very early age and this is demonstrated by the

9:22

numbers of children arrested and detained brutalized tormented tortured

9:28

in some some instances although the threshold for torture for children is is lower than for adults um and and the

9:35

killings the extrajudicial killings of of children hit in the in the head and

9:41

torso these are elements that have always been there Chris so how come we have not seen it we have not seen what

9:48

was happening the trajectory we were describing before but again what is

9:53

relevant in order to establish that there is genocide is not just the the

9:59

intent behind these crimes uh enunciated at article two of the genocide

10:04

convention is the overall intent a specific intent to destroy the people

10:12

and the group as a whole or a part as such and what what is the group here is

10:18

the Palestinians as such the amalec the monsters the Human animals this derogatory language this de

10:26

dehumanizing language has prepared the the the spirit of those who have ordered

10:34

planned and executed the genocide and uh it’s look it it’s it’s

10:41

it’s not an easy task to establish genocidal intent although as I already

10:47

wrote in my first report it’s it’s impossible to deny it when it’s so

10:54

obious as in the evidence of it is so obious as in the case of uh of Gaza but

11:01

there are three elements that I write about in the in the report even when the

11:07

direct evidence of intent like a plan uh on which uh Israeli leaders have written

11:14

yes we want to genocide the Palestinians let this aside I do believe that there is a direct intent but let’s assume that

11:21

there is not um when direct intent is unavailable then intent should be or

11:29

must be um must be drawn from from inference and

11:37

only reasonable inference says the the jurisprudence but we have to consider these elements that while recognizing

11:43

the possible composite nature of genocide the fact that one uh War crime

11:50

or one crime against humanity might also constitute an act of genocide and and

11:56

and this is this is pretty obvious I mean often when genocides have happened in the context of civil Strife like it

12:03

was in in former Yugoslavia but even the genocide of of the Jewish people and

12:10

Roman inity in a way happen in the context of of a war however the

12:16

compartimentalization of the conduct into desperate acts so without uh

12:22

capturing the broader context ex is extremely dangerous it’s nonsensical you cannot look for the genocidal intent

12:29

with a magnifier you need to take a step back and look at the overall what I say

12:34

totality of the conduct all the acts the scale and nature of them the knowledge

12:40

of what they would have these acts would have resulted into in the totality of

12:45

the territory against the totality of the people and uh and again doing otherwise and we can elaborate on that

12:53

but doing otherwise would vanify that clear obligation in the genocide venture

12:59

to prevent to prevent genocide when int the intent manifest itself when the word

13:05

Amal was used that was already a sign it was not captured but then on the 26th of

13:11

January the international court of justice identify the plausibility of

13:17

risk uh for the rights protected under the genocide convention for the Palestinian people the plausibility that

13:24

acts of genocide were were being committed so why Israel was not stopped

13:30

then and then as of then the acts have continued have multiplied and you know

13:37

what chis I I ended the the my my report only covers facts until September 2024

13:45

but just in the last in the last three four weeks the crimes that have been

13:50

committed against the Palestinians um the burning people alive the bombing uh

13:57

camps refugee camps and and schools and anwa premises this is and and going home

14:04

by home in Norther Gaza while the population is is continuously exposed to

14:10

the threat of starvation what can it be what can it be so again Israel continues to commit acts

14:17

of genocide in Gaza and the risk of this metastasing to other parts of the

14:24

occupied Palestinian territory is very real well you make that point that and

14:30

you you spend time talking about uh the conditions in the West Bank which are of course becoming worse and worse I was in

14:36

the West Bank in uh July uh you you you

14:41

raised a very important point that none of it is new what’s new is the scale uh

14:47

so in 2000 the cartoonist Joe Sako who uh wrote Palestine and footnotes and

14:53

Gaza and I did I took my vacation time to do it from the New York Times went to

14:59

hunis and wrote what we called a Gaza diary for Harper’s magazine and just wrote day by day what life was like the

15:05

settlers were still there at narim and while we were in the camp uh I speak

15:13

Arabic I heard uh through the loudspeakers uh T which means come come

15:20

uh as the kids the young boys 10 11 12 were coming out of school on their way home from school uh and then they began

15:28

uh the the Israelis began through the loudspeakers on their Jeeps using curse

15:34

words Ian Shar and these horrible terms the kids naturally picked up rocks and they shot them um they were like uh you

15:42

know mice enticed into a trap um that article and we had their names The Times

15:48

They were shot I mean it was incontrovertible led to my being told by the newspaper that I would no longer

15:54

cover the Middle East I would no longer be allowed to report out of the Middle East so uh what what we’re talking about

16:02

is scale and I think you capture that in the intent has always been there uh but

16:07

the scale is unlike anything we have seen I think you even argue greater than the knba that’s the first point I wanted

16:13

to make the second point when you talk about dehumanization and AMC that’s what I saw in Bosnia where

16:21

the serbs referred to all the bosniacs As ustasha and to be fair a lot of the

16:26

bosniacs referred to the serbs as chetniks these are World War II terms when the ustasa were allied with the

16:33

Nazis and the chetniks were uh Serbian nationalists who were fighting uh the

16:39

ustasa separate from Tito partisans so I want to ask you about that because

16:45

essentially these these historical terms uh are are are used and of course the

16:53

the Israelis have referred to as is also in your report referred to the Palestinians as

16:59

Nazis but but they historicize it this and I just want to ask you about that

17:05

that was true in Bosnia and that’s true in uh the apartheid state of

17:11

Israel yeah look um just for for the sake of clarity regarding intent I’m

17:18

sorry to be the picky lawyer but um what I what I I do say that has always been

17:26

there is the the potential to commit the genocide because the the greater Israel

17:33

plan that has always been there making the whole land of Palestine a land for the Jewish people

17:43

only had an eliminatory component for the Palestinians because I as I write in

17:48

the report and I think this will resonate very strongly with uh all indigenous people for the indigenous

17:56

people the land is not the place where they live is who they are uh it’s part

18:03

of the identity and this continuous uprooting of the Palestinians and mass

18:09

in big events in 1947 49 in 1967 uh and now in as of

18:16

2023 these are instances where Israel CES the

18:22

opportunity to forcibly displace the Palestinians uh using very destructive

18:28

me but never the violence has been so acute and in a way

18:35

intentionally deliberately uh eliminatory as in this case so uh it’s

18:42

it’s like the the genocidal intent has been dormant in the veins of the system

18:51

but then the opportunity the capacity the circumstances um that develop

19:00

after October 7 have been such to prompt this genocide and you know

19:07

um while there have been these Mass

19:12

massive instances of force displacement which is force displacement is not per

19:17

say genocide but again it might be part of a genocidal uh conduct Palestinians

19:24

have been uprooted all the time even individual ual in individuals after

19:30

individuals family after family and Israel has tried to take as much land as

19:36

possible inch by inch home by home uh dunum by dunum and and again I this is

19:44

why in the report I describe that in this case genocide is a means to an end

19:51

the end is the realization of Greater Israel they openly talk about removing

19:56

the Palestinians from Palestine they can go to Jordan they can go to Egypt there are over 20 Muslim countries this is so

20:05

racist how how can we have even entertain such an argument without

20:11

really stopping it and and and and and blaming those who use it accusing those who use

20:17

it of racism but so um uh yeah it has it

20:23

has always been there and things have escalated uh at the time Israel found

20:30

that uh yeah they were they were ready but then they is ready yeah I think it’s

20:36

been quite deliberate certainly in nany’s mindset um and the way they

20:42

have presented and projected the Palestinians throughout the whole

20:47

history of of Israel nit peled the whom I often quote talks of the quote unquote

20:54

nification of the Palestinians so yes there is this de

21:00

historization of of the Holocaust Palestinians are blamed for the

21:05

Holocaust they are called Nazis but also look at the look at the uh language that

21:11

um Israeli leaders military political and religious leaders have used after

21:17

October 7 we are fighting for the civilization for Western Civilization

21:25

Against The Barbarians we are the light we are the people of light and these are

21:31

the people of Darkness this language is not new this is been used over and over

21:37

in other setal Colonial contexts and genocide in order to justify the crimes

21:44

the counter Insurgency the countering terrorism or the self-defense against

21:51

this uh monsters so this is the reality how how I how I see it

21:59

you write that um jurist Prudence had broadly focused

22:04

on determining intent through what you call acts of targeting the very foundation of the group including the

22:11

imposition of living conditions leading to what you call slow death and the destruction of the spirit of the will to

22:17

live and of life itself in other words intent to destroy is assessed

22:22

holistically and in totality uh I want to ask about

22:28

journalists it’s not in your report although I know you have spoken out about Israel’s attack on journalists and

22:35

they just condemned I think it’s six reporters for Al jazer Palestinian

22:41

reporters for Al jazer who were some of the last uh they’ve the committee to protect journalists is talking about 128

22:47

killings of journalists in Lebanon West Bank and Israel uh I think the

22:53

Palestinian figures are higher 177 uh it’s unlike I I was a war correspondent it’s unlike any thing I

22:59

saw in El Salvador I think we lost 22 journalists or SAR Evo was again a few

23:05

dozen um this is this assault on journalism is unprecedented um and just before we go

23:12

on I know you’ve spoken about it I want you to because as you said by condemning

23:18

these Al jazer reporters as members of Hamas you’ve essentially delivered them

23:24

a death sentence absolutely absolutely you see there is this uh this concept

23:30

that everyone uh labeled or qualified as a terrorist by Israel deserves to die but

23:39

this is so dehumanizing not only because um again it uh it builds on a on a

23:49

racist presumption of guilt on the side of Palestinians the Palestinians are so

23:54

naturally terrorist that it almost goes unquestioned when when Israel says oh

24:00

these These are Hamas Affiliates or terrorists themselves but also where is

24:05

the presumption of innocence where is the where is the the principle that

24:11

everyone including alleged criminals alleged perpetrators uh are entitled to Justice

24:18

you see all this has been eroded erased by by Israel which has transformed I

24:26

often say the world in a world without civilians it’s the light against the

24:32

dark is um is a uh good people against

24:37

evil and this is how Israel is um is is justifying the the mass killing of the

24:45

Palestinians the destruction of pal what remains of Palestine and its uh and its people you know this is not just the the

24:53

the like the conflict during which um most journalists have been killed this

25:00

is also the journalist sorry this is also the conflict uh in which the

25:06

highest number of un officials have been killed the highest number of un premises

25:12

have been targeted the the highest number of hospitals have been targeted

25:17

all universities have been destroyed and never a population has gone starving so

25:25

fast never that n such a high number of people have starved at such a speed this

25:32

has been concluded by the special repor on the right to food and the commission of inquiry in June this year said never

25:40

a population or never an people a number of people of disproportion has been

25:47

displaced at such a speed before um and

25:54

um sorry no sorry I need to I need to refrain this is not what they say they

25:59

say that this has been one of the fastest Force displacement of history in

26:06

the the people from northern Gaza into Southern Gaza while both the North and

26:12

South were being bombed um in the early months of the genocide last year um and

26:20

the media you know this you know it’s it’s interesting I was reading I was rereading uh Camu

26:27

recent L and I found this quote which is very telling it says that the Jour

26:34

journalists are the historian of the instant and as as such they should look

26:42

at the facts report on the facts of course they can analyze add their own

26:48

interpretation but they need to report on the facts in their nudity as they

26:53

appear and this has not been done it’s not an uncommon that in the

26:59

context of a genocide the media contribute to play a critical and

27:06

criminal role this has been asserted by uh International tribunals in the case

27:13

of former Yugoslavia in the case of Rwanda but what is unique here is that

27:19

this is not just the Israeli media who have Amplified genocidal statement

27:26

genocidal calls which have provided a platform to rapists to go Israeli

27:32

soldiers who had raped Palestinians to go on show and and run about their right

27:38

to R to rap Palestinians it’s not just that and there have been a critical

27:43

voices among Israeli journalists I mean 972 does an incredible work hared as

27:51

well has very good journalist and they are honest about what’s

27:56

happening in the W the mainstream media has replicated and Amplified Lies We

28:05

Have Heard and I said sometimes I look at politicians and journalists who have

28:11

repeated lies the story of the beheaded babies the Israeli babies um from

28:20

October 7 is not true does it take away the crimes that Hamas and other par

28:26

Palestinian armed groups have had indeed committed against Israeli civilians killing or brutalizing or taking them

28:34

hostages of course not but what’s the need to talk about Mass rape there is no

28:40

evidence of rape which doesn’t mean that rape didn’t occur but there is no evidence so why people Western leaders

28:48

talked of of of these videos of these pictures did President Biden said that

28:55

he had seen the the picture of the beheaded babies and what did he

29:02

see I’m not saying they didn’t see that it invented it but again where is the

29:09

evidence and why or later there are countries like my own country in Italy where they are continuing to to relaunch

29:16

this this lies why so why has Western media be so complicit with a genocidal

29:24

genocidal mindset why it has covered up and why it has further dehumanized the

29:31

Palestinians and here I think we fa we we we we are finally put in our uh as

29:40

really as naked creators in front of a of of a mirror as a society this is who

29:46

we are extremely racist toward the Palestinians um this is not something

29:53

unique to the Palestinians I think that people in the global South are generally

29:58

uh perceived as uh as less worthy by some people in the west and

30:04

this reflects I mean it fits the racial racialized

30:11

stereotype uh which is not challenged by the dominant Society so I want to ask

30:19

before we get into the specifics in your report you write perpetrators of genocide almost always alleg their

30:25

actions were taken pursuing to an ongoing military conflict yet genocide

30:31

may be a means for achieving military objectives just as readily as military

30:36

conflict may be a means for instigating a genocidal plan and then you write uh

30:43

genocidal intent may exist simultaneously with other ulterior motives one of the mantras uh certainly

30:51

within the US press the US media landscape is Israel’s right to defend itself Israel’s right to defend it self

30:59

uh as if that precludes the possibility of genocide and you make that distinction in your report that that uh

31:07

that it doesn’t yeah um there are three

31:12

layers that need to be need to be understood uh here the first is that

31:19

even when a state has the right to defend itself uh from an attack uh or a

31:25

serious threat of an attack it cannot commit genocide and the fact that the

31:31

court the international court of justice the Supreme organ of the United Nations had already identified this possibility

31:37

this likelihood should have put Israel on notice did put Israel on notice and

31:43

should have been an an alarm for the entire International Community which

31:48

should have not acted business as usual as of then and instead this has not

31:55

happened uh but also I say the report people tend to

32:00

confuse um motives with intent intent is the determination is when the the an

32:09

individual or here in the report I’m talking of State responsibility because

32:14

this is critical and I would I would be very happy to to unpack that um later

32:21

but it’s the determination to destroy a group in whole or in part and and the

32:29

mind Mastermind behind it might have the most desper um sorry might have

32:36

different motives might want to do that to stay in power might want to do that because they have this is seen as a way

32:42

to liberate the hostages or might want to do that because they feel entitled to

32:48

uh to eradicate a political entity or it’s armed Wing but motives are

32:54

Irrelevant in international criminal law in the case of genocide we need to look

32:59

at the intent the what is what eventually has manifested like a Mena like the mind

33:09

that want to destroy this is why we need to be very very clear because I hear

33:15

people saying no but Israel doesn’t want to commit genocide they want to liberate the hostages as if it was another uh

33:23

another intent that could be uh inferred no no it’s not it’s it first of all I as

33:31

you know from the from the report as you have read it and um I debank both the

33:38

the argument that it was even a motive deliberation of the hostages this is a mantra uh or a refrain that has helped

33:46

Israel continue to uh fund the Flames of um of

33:54

uh attack against against Gaza so I

33:59

debank that and I de Bank the the argument of the of eradicating Hamas but

34:06

let’s spend the word on self self-defense because as you rightly point out and it’s shocking for me to

34:13

see that but member states continue to talk about the right of self-defense as if it was an an

34:21

existential as if Israel was facing an existential threat that legitimate

34:28

it’s a whole like wholesome war against

34:34

another people there is no self-defense that Israel can invoke against the people it maintains under occupation

34:40

because look the only context in which a state can invoke self-defense it’s when

34:47

it’s attacked or by another state or the use of forces authorized by the security

34:53

Council uh there is no security Council res solution authorizing Israel to to

35:00

wage a war but why so because Israel cannot w a war against the population it maintains under occupation because this

35:06

population has the right to resist an unlawful occupation now when I’m when I

35:13

say that I infuriate many because they say oh you see she’s justifying violence

35:20

no I’m just saying what international law says because again states have the

35:25

right to defend themselves and so have people especially people whose right of self-determination has not yet

35:32

materialized and therefore there would be a conflict within international law

35:38

itself if self-defense took precedence over the right of self-determination

35:45

Israel the only way for Israel to protect itself which is its sacran right

35:50

is to withdraw from what remains of historical Palestine with all the

35:55

occupation withraw the settlement s withdraw its exploitation of Palestinians resources as it has been

36:02

ordered by the international court of justice in July this year and then stop

36:07

practicing aarid against the Palestinians including those with Israeli

36:14

citizenship you talk about one of the tactics being the humiliation and

36:22

degradation of Palestinians you write prisoners stripped and statistic stais

36:27

ially tortured all mass bodies of adults and children piled up and decomposing in

36:34

the street survivors forced to eat animal food and grass and drink seawater

36:40

or even sewage the maming of thousands including young children left limb uh

36:47

limbless before they could even crawl the destruction of homes and violation

36:52

of intimate life having absolutely nothing to return to Mass Graves and the

36:58

exhumation and relocation of bodies are specific desecrating acts which

37:05

themselves can suggest genocidal intent combine these acts go far beyond what

37:12

international jurist Prudence recognize as steps in the process of destruction

37:18

of the group and then you add the pain and loss will impact generations to come

37:27

yes absolutely and U I mean that is that issue of trauma and it’s just sustained

37:36

trauma when I covered Saro we lasted as functional journalists about 3 weeks and

37:44

then we had to get out uh and and and recover before we came back in the

37:51

Palestinians can’t get out I I can’t even begin to imagine and especially the

37:57

effects on children what week after week month after

38:03

month this is doing I mean it’s it’s almost inconceivable in terms of the the

38:09

trauma that they’re enduring yeah yeah but look I

38:15

mean I um I don’t mind to say that this

38:22

I mean this this genocide has affected everyone was um was looking at it from

38:29

near and far of course nothing can compare to the Palestinians who have

38:35

experienced it firsthand the survivors uh or the Palestinians who

38:41

have watched it broadcast from afar the Palestinians

38:48

in Exile because I I I think it’s a very

38:54

effective uh image that of a people as a body you chop a limb in a body the

39:02

entire body suffers and so for a people um who has been really victimized

39:09

for 75 years um and For Whom the nakba the

39:15

catastrophe has never ended this is not an instance of the past it has been continuous

39:21

ongoing how much they have suffered it’s uh it’s undescribable

39:27

uh because um it’s true the Palestinians are killed they’re blamed and they’re

39:33

smeared this poses a question to all of us as societies that have let it happen

39:40

because Chris I mean here we cannot uh we cannot play with words those who

39:46

didn’t do anything to prevent this from happening were either the the monsters

39:53

committed it or the moners who enabled it and there is something it’s again

39:59

looking at the the violence that has been Unleashed under our watch against the Palestinians I don’t think that we

40:07

can we can again I often refer to this as a monstrosity but also the

40:13

bureaucrats who have Justified it what what Have We Become as a society what

40:20

Have We Become watching The Killing the butchering of 177,000 children

40:28

again I I I think uh something inside me broke at some point this year I’ve been

40:34

I’ve become I thought I’ve become desensitized but I’ve not I’m not

40:40

clearly I mean I as as I hear you reading parts of the reports I think oh my God yeah I mean tears come to my eyes

40:48

and I’m the one who wrote that report look it’s it’s we have forced the

40:53

Palestinians to to to we have a band the Palestinians in an inferno that was

41:02

a tragedy for told and uh yeah Palestinians will bear the scars will

41:08

carry the scars will bu yeah we carry the scars of this and will carry the

41:13

shame this should have not happened especially especially because of what

41:20

the West is how it has affirmed itself internationally for its soft power and

41:26

its cradle in human rights and an international law based order we have

41:34

lost all our credibility um but we shouldn’t have let it happen

41:39

especially because we failed to prevent and the genocide in Rwanda in Bosnia

41:47

heroina and more than anything else we are the ones who have perpetrated genocides against Colonial people and

41:55

even against our own people because the Jewish people who were killed were exterminated were genocided in during

42:02

the Holocaust were our people so again this shows us that we have not improved

42:08

at all from where we were um 80 90 years ago and all the more now we have let it

42:16

happen with an international legal framework which was perfectly fine to

42:21

identify and stop it well I think of all of the Holocaust

42:27

studies programs which exist in almost every University uh and I watch what’s

42:34

happening in Gaza and my only conclusion is that they’ve learned nothing yeah I

42:40

agree with you but you know Chris I I realize this this year um there is such

42:46

a disconnect in among people um including my generation I mean I grew up this is

42:53

why I mean now it pained me a lot when they started accusing me of

42:59

anti-Semitism it’s something so revolting anti-Semitism is revolting and so being accused of antisemitism makes

43:05

no sense whatsoever for who I am but especially because I grew up with this profound um immersion in what the

43:14

Holocaust had been because this was part of my upbringing from school but also from my family I mean I was I grew up in

43:22

in a family who educated me to basic values and the thing is that I realize that we have

43:29

confused uh the Hol or we have reduced the Holocaust to the experience of the

43:34

concentration come but or the concentration comes but in fact the

43:41

Holocaust it was a culmination of it the genocide was a culmination of a process

43:47

that had started with the nor the normalization of the dehumanization of the Jewish people the fact that they

43:53

could be kicked out of professions and their homes and every space that they

44:00

had called life simply because of they were they were Jewish and we if we don’t

44:06

understand the racial the racial element that characterized the racial

44:12

discrimination that characterized what we have done to the Jewish people we cannot understand what what is

44:21

still to be addressed and and to be eradicated in our societies which is

44:27

racism is still there well also as Primo Levy pointed out that the real evil is not external

44:34

it’s within us we can all as as Levy writes become himim

44:41

rowski the Jewish head of the ls ghetto who worked in service with the Nazis um

44:49

I want to get into some of the specifics because you lay it out and it is hard to

44:55

read it’s just devastating but I think people need to hear it

45:02

um let’s begin with

45:08

uh Gaza you write in recent months 83% of

45:15

food Aid was prevented from enter entering Gaza and the civilian police and Rafa were repeatedly targeted

45:22

impairing distribution by repeatedly targeted let’s be clear they were shot by the Israelis uh at least 34 deaths

45:30

from malnutrition were recorded by 14 September

45:36

2024 at the time of writing prime minister Netanyahu was evaluating a plan

45:41

to block all Food Supplies to Northern Gaza which of course has come to

45:47

fluish uh proposed by advisor guor Eland who previously endorsed introducing

45:54

epidemics as a military tactic the killing of civilian police and Clan

45:59

leadership providing security for food distribution further compounded the

46:04

crisis in Gaza th this is a a a targeted destruction of the remnants of any kind

46:12

of civil Administration yes yes in the last months we have uh we

46:21

have seen the and we continue to see the destruction of any REM of life in uh in

46:30

Gaza or the possibility to continue to live to have life in Gaza um again I

46:38

think that what I try to do in in the report because I have uh I mean I’m very

46:44

limited in terms of word count so I could only write 10,000 words

46:49

or and so I had to be to provide a bird eyee Bird’s eyee

46:55

picture so but I I looked at patterns at the massacres

47:01

that have been committed and um food is one of the most

47:08

um the most telling uh stories you can have various stories various ways to

47:14

tell this genocide but the way food has been destroyed in Gaza Gaza head as you

47:22

know because you have been there um farmland that which was cultivated with

47:30

love and care by Gaza farmers and it had boats to to to fish um despite Israeli

47:40

Israeli restrictions in accessing the sea this has been destroyed bakeries and

47:47

other other uh areas where food could be could be uh produced have been targeted

47:54

humanitarian Aid has been denied and when it has been approved it has been

48:00

extremely limited and even when it entered it was targeted so people were

48:05

meant to be starved the there are I don’t know if you remember this video that was

48:12

circulated in February by the Israeli Army around the time of the flower

48:18

Massacre where Palestinians were gathering to collect um uh bags of flour

48:25

and uh and is Israeli uh the Israeli Army targeted the crowds there was this

48:31

video which was circulated that depicted it was it was

48:37

very very interesting the way the video portrayed the Palestinians as small

48:43

black points they looked like ants yeah and even I felt like y there is

48:49

something wrong with it some it was meant to elicit um a sort of um

48:59

disgust toward the Palestinians it’s been brutal Chris it’s

49:05

been brutal again I let the dust settle and we will have the full picture of

49:12

what Israel has done and they the Israelis will be ashamed forever I’m sorry I mean I’m I’m I’m concerned I’m

49:19

very concerned with Israelis as well because I do believe that they they are

49:24

victims of some sort espe especially the and I don’t want to justify of course I don’t want to cannot justify what I’ve

49:31

have done but they’ve been indoctrinated for decades to see the Palestinians as

49:37

the enemy the ones who had caused their extermination and there is this is a

49:43

fact the Jewish people are traumatized because they’ve been persecuted for centuries and the Holocaust was the

49:49

culmination of that persecution um so there is something that probably

49:56

it’s intergenerational trauma that has changed the way these people function and see the world so they are pred to

50:04

see an existential threat outside for them I don’t I don’t blame them for this

50:12

I blame Israeli governments who have as n pet says contributed to dehumanize the

50:19

Palestinians through school programs uh through um media narrative through the

50:25

political discourse and they don’t see the Palestinians as human this is why they can they can kill

50:32

women and children and elderly person with no despite well Elon poppy wrote a book

50:39

about that process of indoctrination several years ago I want to talk about as as you do in the report

50:45

the Israeli torture camps you write thousands have disappeared many after being detained in appalling conditions

50:53

often bound to beds blindfolded and in diapers deprived of medical treatment

50:59

subject to unsanitary conditions starvation torturous cuffing severe

51:06

beatings electrocution and sexual assault by both humans and animals at

51:12

least 48 detainees have died in custody and of course as we speak uh thousands

51:22

certainly hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians are being detained and subject to these conditions in Northern

51:28

Gaza especially in jabalia yes there we have seen in the

51:33

last hours new trucks of Israeli Army loaded with half naked Palestinians a

51:42

scene that we had seen already earlier this year Palestinian men of different different

51:50

ages you know this is when it comes to arrest and detention which is a which is

51:55

a topic that has been very dear to me as a lawyer as I was there in Palestine and

52:02

it was shocking to me the the the the easiness that Israelis had to uh to

52:11

arrest in the Palestinians but really for for things that were basic basic

52:16

instances of life and this is where this is why when I became a special reporter my second report was about arrest and

52:22

detention I’ve spoken of a car Mass inarc governance so it was already there and

52:29

it was quite persecutor toward the Palestinians so it was a um arrest and

52:35

detentions were used in a criminal way as in a widespread and widespread and

52:42

systematically arbitrary fashion before October but what has happened after October 2023 it’s incredibly telling of

52:51

the destructive intent that Israel has had because look let’s assume for a second that Israel had the right to

52:58

conduct a war in Gaza and well there are rules including

53:04

Wars and so people cannot be killed without if they do not pose an imminent

53:12

threat if there is a suspicion of crimes they have to be investigated and

53:17

prosecuted before being deprived of their freedom this doesn’t apply to the

53:23

Palestinians but let’s even admit that Israel had the right to arrest all those

53:28

who had been arrested in in Gaza and have been detained in a bing appalling

53:36

conditions but what about the Palestinians in the West Bank what do they have to do with with what happened

53:43

in Gaza this is why I say we need to look at the totality of conduct against the totality of the people because there

53:50

was no Hamas um military U commander in

53:56

uh in in um in in the in the West Bank fighting the Israelis of course there

54:01

were there was also armed resistance but because there is an unlawful protracted occupation which generate resistance the

54:08

thing is that most of the Palestinians who have been arrested and detained including children uh and put in a Despicable

54:17

Despicable conditions much worse than what it was already uh pretty horrific for October 8 where from the West Bank

54:25

so this is why I say look uh there is no justification and another thing that that that struck me is that I started

54:33

receiving um the reports from individuals of uh

54:39

instances of torture and abuses serious abuses in in detention as early as

54:47

January and together with other special report I I investigated a number of

54:53

these cases but what I then as of February and March reports

55:00

started to Circ to be circulated by Ana and then um PTI an Israeli organization

55:08

and then bet selem which unveiled the system of uh the torture Network that

55:15

that exists in um in in Israel and I remember one of the lawyers who had um

55:23

interviewed Palestinians who had been released from from arrest and detention

55:28

told me I’ve never seen I mean it’s it’s very humiliating for a Palestinian like in general there is a cultural element

55:35

to talk about rape and this time it was no it was

55:41

different they were really desperate to tell what they had endured and and

55:46

denouncing rape as it had been used against them and others so it has broken

55:54

the taboo that you cannot about rape because it’s being used in a widespread and systemic

56:03

fashion that was true in Bosnia too with shonita I want to talk about the West Bank um you uh you talk about you call

56:11

it the risk of genocide in the West Bank including East Jerusalem the devastation inflicted on Gaza is now metastized to

56:18

the West Bank including East Jerusalem in December 2023 Israeli defense minister yov Galant predicted that when

56:27

what the IDF did in Gaza becomes clear that will be projected on Judean Samaria

56:32

that’s the term that uh that’s a settlers term for the West Bank between

56:37

the 7th of October 2023 and September 2024 Israeli forces carried out more

56:43

than 5,505 raids violent settlers supported by Israeli forces and officials

56:49

conducted 1,84 attacks killing over 692

56:55

Palestinians 10 times the previous 14 years annual average of 69

57:03

fatalities and injuring 5,199 people the pattern of targeting

57:10

children is shocking since the 7th of October 169 Palestinian children have

57:18

been killed nearly 80% of whom were shot in the head or torso this represents a

57:25

250 % increase on the previous 9 months totaling more than 20% of the children

57:32

killed in the West Bank since 2000 echoing the brutality that swept Gaza

57:37

Palestinians in the West Bank have been subjected to appalling detention practices following orders by national

57:45

security minister Ben gavier a mass arrest campaign led to the Detention of

57:51

tens of thousands with 9,400 currently detained as in Gaza many are academics

57:58

students lawyers journalists and human rights Defenders designated as terrorists or national security threats

58:06

leaked videos and interviews with prison officials revealed intentional and

58:13

systematic uh uh abuse and brutality degradation torture and even rape at

58:18

least 12 detainees from the West Bank died as a result of torture and denial

58:24

of medical care I want to ask about the West Bank because I think it’s often overlooked I

58:32

was I was just in rala and in visiting my friend the novelist at Abu safe in

58:37

July and the day before I got there the Israelis had come in to romalo which is

58:43

technically part of the I think it’s now 19% of the West Bank that the Palestinians under Oslo are supposedly

58:50

allowed to administer without Israeli occupation or interference and they had

58:56

come in and burned the money transfer shops the the shops by which Palestinians received money from abroad

59:04

uh and when I left uh a and I would came in through the king of same bridge in

59:10

Jordan I asked him you know for those of us on the outside what’s the most important thing that other than speaking

59:16

out that we can do materially to help and he said food and

59:22

clothing so I’d like you to speak about the West Bank and what’s happening because I think it’s often overlooked

59:29

and as your report makes very clear all of the tactics that are familiar in Gaza

59:36

are being accelerated on the Palestinian population in the occupied West Bank

59:43

absolutely I think that it’s it’s important to bear in mind that while our

59:48

eyes have been fixated with no no result I mean um nothing has stopped the

59:55

genocide have been fixated on Gaza the the situation in the West Bank

1:00:01

has deteriorated traumatically and it’s clear from the facts that I reported

1:00:06

that you kindly read um what has happened is the before October 7 what I

1:00:14

what I thought might happen was uh a total a total collapse of the

1:00:22

possibility of the Palestinians to uh to leave in the West Bank and therefore to

1:00:29

to explode against the the occupation I I don’t think that the Palestinians had

1:00:35

the capacity to initiate another intifada uh because of the Matrix of control because of the tight level of of

1:00:45

Oppression over them let let me just interrupt Franchesca because for people who don’t understand what Israel has

1:00:52

done in the West Bank is incre en Circle completely through settlements closed

1:00:59

military zones uh special roads all this kind of they’ve encircled Palestinian enclaves

1:01:07

essentially cutting themselves and when you say they can’t resist the same way unlike Gaza which is

1:01:16

contiguous what they’ve created in the West Bank are kind of Bantu completely surrounded bontu St and they can choke

1:01:22

it off so for me to go from the King Bridge from Jordan up to rala it should take an

1:01:29

hour it takes four hours uh because you’re you you can’t move there’s constant Israeli checkpoints and those

1:01:36

checkpoints people are terrified because if you get they they’re flying checkpoints they never they’re not permanent they just suddenly appear and

1:01:43

then people are hauled from their cars and they disappear and Etc so when you talk about the inability of the

1:01:49

Palestinians to build any kind of resistance I think that’s an important Point yeah and look in my carcerality

1:01:57

report the the report on arbitrary arbitrary arrest and detention I said

1:02:03

the overall occupied Palestinian territory is like a panopticon a prison controlled

1:02:10

from out and from within and it has very much the Aesthetics and the features of

1:02:17

of a large prison is not just Gaza so for those who have never re who have

1:02:23

less experience than us in Palestine the occupied Palestinian territory is

1:02:29

is totally fragmented yes there is Gaza who has been isolated but it’s a

1:02:35

continuous area like Chris was saying and then the West Bank is a is is an

1:02:40

area fully controlled fully controlled by the by the Israelis because even in

1:02:46

the areas the Palestinian Authority has Authority only in towns and cities but

1:02:52

even there the Israelis conduct mil military operations and rides raids all

1:02:58

the time and outside of these areas the Israeli Army is ever present and the the

1:03:08

settlers are the ones who control and who determine the security needs for the

1:03:16

settlers and also the Army in the in the areas there are red lines that Palestinians of course cannot see cannot

1:03:23

know of but if they are cross the settlers would come the Army and the Army would arrest the Palestinians for

1:03:29

simply walking on their land land that the the settlers think is theirs by

1:03:35

Divine decree and you know this land imagine for the Palestinians why the

1:03:40

reason why this you call it bant is that yes the Palestinians Liv in these uh

1:03:46

pockets of of land that are separated from each other from areas a land

1:03:53

controlled directly by settlers and soldiers 400 kilometers of segregated

1:03:59

roads meaning roads that Palestinians cannot even get into and on the roads

1:04:05

that they can use there are 500 more than 500 fixed checkpoints

1:04:13

and then hundreds of flying checkpoints and then there is digital surveillance

1:04:18

and and and uh Gates Again the aesthetic of the the aesthetic of the of the

1:04:24

prison and then there is also another part of control um the Israelis cannot

1:04:30

do anything from building a house going to a university traveling mean the

1:04:36

Palestinians Palestinians Palestinians cannot you said the Israelis cannot the

1:04:42

Palestinians oh oh go go thank you thank you and you know the on top of this

1:04:47

there is another layer of Oppression and and physical physical and and and mental

1:04:54

restriction um because the Palestinians cannot do anything without the Army’s

1:04:59

authorization they cannot build a home they cannot get married they cannot uh have a wedding or organize a vigil um

1:05:07

they cannot open a business they cannot travel abroad they cannot change residents without the Army’s

1:05:13

authorization and the Army is doesn’t give permits for example think that of

1:05:20

all the building permits uh that Palestinians apply for 1% is also

1:05:26

the rest is is is denied which means that the Palestines often often um build

1:05:33

for example without permits and this leads to demolition there are Israel has

1:05:38

demolished until um October 2023 60,000 civilian infrastructures

1:05:47

outside situation of conflict meaning it doesn’t account for the homes destroyed

1:05:53

in Gaza in 2008 20 2 2014

1:05:58

2021 2023 there had been five major Wars against Gaza before October

1:06:06

7 so the situation was devastating and in West Bank it was a close to to

1:06:12

explode because since this new government Coalition came on boot they have advanced the annexation of what

1:06:20

remains of Palestinian land and annexation meaning acquiring uh

1:06:26

I mean claiming title over the land that is not yours through the use of force which is

1:06:33

prohibited uh so it has Israel uh with this coalition government has advanced

1:06:40

annexation of Palestinian land for forc displacement of the Palestinians further

1:06:45

repression of Palestinians 460 Palestinians had been killed in the 16 months prior to October 7 I have been a

1:06:52

special reports 460 Palestinians and 60 Israelis um so this is why the

1:07:00

situation was unattainable and in the West Bank the West Bank is the settler Colonial

1:07:07

Frontier is where 700,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank correct 700

1:07:14

this is something that your audience needs to think about the reason why

1:07:19

there is so much insecurity in the and so much violence in the occupied

1:07:25

Palestinian territory and for the Palestinians if I had to point to one element is the colonies Israel has built

1:07:33

300 colonies 300 settlements are which are illegal under international law they

1:07:39

constitute a war crime in and of itself and now they are home to

1:07:46

300,000 settlers Jewish Israelis who live in occupied land so they are part

1:07:52

of a criminal Endeavor and therefore you know the situation was already worth

1:07:58

investigation and prosecution by the international criminal court and others before October 7 but Israel has

1:08:06

benefited and profited from an impunity that has intoxicated it intoxicated its

1:08:12

officials and unfortunately intoxicated its Society uh convincing them that they

1:08:18

could really treat the Palestinians as disposable I want to close uh by talking

1:08:24

about which is in your report the signs uh of permanent

1:08:30

annexation uh by Israel in both Gaza in the West Bank but in particularly in Gaza you write according to satellite

1:08:36

imagery and other sources Israeli soldiers have built roads and military bases in over 26% of Gaza suggesting the

1:08:46

aim of a permanent presence the Israeli military expanded the buffer zone along the Gaza perimeter to 16% of the

1:08:53

territory flattening home Homes apartment blocks and agricultural Farms by August 2024 repeated evacuation

1:09:01

orders over approximately 84% of Gaza had corraled the majority of the

1:09:07

population into a shrinking unsafe humanitarian Zone covering

1:09:15

12.6% of a territory now reconfigured in preparation for

1:09:20

annexation uh in early September two Israeli ministers openly called for

1:09:25

conquest and annexation of significant areas of Gaza I mean the we we’re seeing

1:09:31

it as we speak in Northern Gaza uh the the effort to drive the last 400,000

1:09:37

Palestinians in Northern Gaza out through starvation and brutal attacks on

1:09:44

densely populated areas uh but you raise the the in the report the signs that

1:09:51

they are already beginning a process of annexation in which Palestinians will not

1:09:57

return yeah yeah this is what’s happening but you know I mean as I was uh as I was writing the last I was

1:10:04

adding the final touches to the report I wrote about uh the plan uh that you

1:10:11

evoked uh elad’s plan to reconquest Gaza this is not new I mean

1:10:19

since the very beginning soldiers have been uh on record saying we are here to

1:10:24

destroy this place place and occupy and resettle so the idea that Gaza was

1:10:30

theirs and had to be sort of the object of a

1:10:36

Reconquista has had a phenomenal impact on the mindset of the of the Israelis

1:10:43

the point is that Gaza is home or was home to 2.3 million Palestinians and uh they

1:10:52

have nowhere else to go actually 75% of them are not even from Gaza this is why

1:10:58

I hit the roof when I hear people talking of razawi because they’re not razawi they are 75% of them are refugees

1:11:07

from Modern Day Israel and have their family properties in mostly in the area

1:11:14

of South Israel Beva and um and the the K in fact the kibuts who have been

1:11:21

attacked now I don’t think that there is a link this is the story of that place

1:11:26

so the idea that this can be resolved by kicking out the Palestinians from what

1:11:33

remains of Palestine is brutal but also again it comes to mind that who how do

1:11:41

you say in Italian who who seeds um who seeds winds Harvest storm and this is

1:11:49

what Israel is doing that’s taken from the Bible seeds

1:11:54

the wind uh reaps the Whirlwind um I want to close by asking

1:12:00

it’s a legal point you make towards the end of your report the ongoing genocide is doubtlessly the consequence of the

1:12:06

exceptional status and protracted impunity that is been afforded to Israel

1:12:12

Israel has systematically and flagrantly violated international law including un

1:12:18

Security Council resolutions International court of justice orders

1:12:23

this has bolded Israel’s hubris and Defiance of international law as the

1:12:31

prosecutor of the international criminal court has warned if we do not

1:12:36

demonstrate our willingness to apply the law equally if it is seen as applied

1:12:41

selectively we will be creating the conditions of its complete collapse this

1:12:46

is the true risk we face at this perilous moment talk about

1:12:53

that yeah I think we are already in that Uncharted Territory um the system the

1:13:02

system that has been built after the second world war has been put on a test

1:13:09

uh in Gaza and it has miserably failed from my humanitarian political and legal

1:13:14

point of view because nothing has been enough nothing has been sufficient to

1:13:20

prevent and uh and uh and stop acts of

1:13:25

genocide and even as we speak these acts uh continue but it seems to me and these

1:13:33

are news of the past days that the sense of

1:13:38

impunity and and Israel’s hu is not limited to Israel I mean even the United

1:13:44

States have threatened to uh defund the

1:13:50

United Nations if uh if it takes the general assembly takes steps against

1:13:56

Israel because there is a finally discussion about suspending Israel’s

1:14:01

from uh from its membership to the general assembly but again not because there are no other states committing

1:14:08

violations of international law but hey here first of all we have a history of a

1:14:15

state committing persevering in violating international law uh through

1:14:21

and and through is which leads to lead me to um describe Israel as a persistent

1:14:29

violator of international law therefore therefore it is to be treated as South

1:14:37

Africa was treated at the time of apartheid but also Israel is committed

1:14:42

violations including preventing the realization of the right of self-determination of the Palestinian

1:14:48

people which is the right to exist as a people you see the trajectory of the genocide as I say this has been the

1:14:54

dormant Gene of of um of

1:14:59

the the the colonial project that Israel has

1:15:05

enforced in in Palestine bring leading it bringing it um to its most extreme

1:15:12

consequences um therefore I I do believe that the International Community is

1:15:20

living in a phase of schizophrenia or probably we are already passed that point part of the

1:15:27

International Community has accepted that the system can be sacrificed that

1:15:32

the system which was conceived and devised to protect us all and it has

1:15:37

protected us all particularly in the west not the rest but us in the global

1:15:43

North have benefited from from it and we will miss human rights very much when

1:15:50

and the the United Nations system were very much multilateralism very much when they will not be there anymore and now

1:15:57

the Uncharted Territory I was talking about is that

1:16:04

the the we don’t know what’s going to be next we have failed the Palestinians but

1:16:12

we we have also failed the the humanity that has mobilized to stop the genocide in Gaza

1:16:21

we have seen a critical um shock in Western democracies

1:16:27

in that have turned more more aggressive toward their own citizens to those

1:16:33

protesting against the genocide whose fundamental freedoms like freedom of expression and freedom of Association

1:16:39

have been ciled um so you see I think that there is much more in this moment that we are

1:16:49

risking then you’re already unbearable unbearable Pride that the Palestinians

1:16:56

are are paying and this is uh this is something that should worry all of us

1:17:03

that should make all of us including those who are completely indifferent to the fate of the Palestinians or the

1:17:10

Israelis and uh should move them into sacrificing a little bit of their

1:17:16

comfort and taking action so that a an entire people is doesn’t have to

1:17:23

sacrifice everything they they have thank you that was UN special

1:17:29

reporter Franchesca albanesi on her latest report on the occupied territories I want to

1:17:38

thank Diego Max Sophia and Thomas who produced the show you can find me at

1:17:43

Chris hedges. substack

1:17:49

[Music]

1:17:55

[Music]

oooooo

ooo

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrIBIVVBmp4)

In this conversation, Frank Barat and Francesca Albanese discuss the recent arrest warrants issued by the International Criminal Court (ICC) against Israeli leaders, including Benjamin Netanyahu. They explore the implications of these warrants for international law, the reactions from various states, and the broader context of accountability for war crimes and genocide in Palestine. Albanese emphasises the historical significance of the ICC’s decision and the ongoing challenges faced by Palestinians, while also addressing the responsibilities of member states in enforcing these warrants.

Audio podcast here: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show…

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Context of the ICC Arrest Warrants

02:05 Significance of the ICC’s Decision

04:45 Legal Obligations of Member States

06:57 Potential for Broader Accountability

10:59 Implications of Ongoing Violence

17:42 Understanding Genocide as Colonial Erasure

Transkripzia:

Introduction and Context of the ICC Arrest Warrants

0:01

hi Franchesca hi

0:04

Frank um it’s it’s really great to to

0:06

have you on today I know how busy you

0:08

are so it’s much much

0:11

appreciated thank you thank you very

0:13

much it’s always a pleasure to be with

0:15

you I I wanted to talk to you obviously

0:18

about the international criminal court

0:21

coming back after months and months with

0:24

ARs warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu

0:29

yav galand

0:30

and Muhammad de um Hamas leader Israel

0:35

said you they killed Muhammad de in

0:38

August so we’re not sure if he’s alive

0:40

or not but obviously I’m going to focus

0:42

more about what it means in regards to

0:44

Netanyahu and Gallant I’ll give a brief

0:47

background so on May 21st Karim K the

0:51

pro prosecutor of the international

0:53

criminal court asked the court to issue

0:56

arrest warrants against Netanyahu Galant

0:58

Han Di and sinir Han was assassinated in

1:02

Iran sinir died in Gaza recently and

1:06

again we’re not sure if Dave is is alive

1:09

or not following Karim can um you know

1:14

demand in may we know the court and some

1:18

judges were put under huge pressure by

1:20

various actors actually one of the judge

1:24

the Romanian judge had to leave the

1:25

court this is very unusual then in

1:28

August Kim Khan asked the court for an

1:30

Urgent Response to his request because

1:33

between May and August we didn’t hear

1:34

anything from the court and then finally

1:37

yesterday and to be honest I didn’t

1:40

expect this anymore I was like this is

1:41

over I’m not sure what’s going to happen

1:43

with the IC you know international law

1:45

is dead International Justice is dead

1:47

but yesterday for me out of the blue we

1:50

get the news the IC comes back with the

1:53

RS warrants against Natan gallant and

1:56

Dave how did you react to the news and

2:01

why is it important in your opinion yeah

2:05

I have to say that I I share your

2:08

feelings I mean like many I’ve been

2:11

disheartened by the delay uh because

2:16

uh Israel has consistently evaded

2:20

accountability for decades and the

2:23

pressure that has been excerted on the

2:26

international justice system and

2:28

particularly the uh ICC has led many

2:32

including myself to think that this

2:36

yesterday decision would never see the

2:40

uh the light of the day so I reacted

2:43

yeah with a moment of I I felt elated

2:47

there was a moment

2:49

of yeah Joy satisfaction thinking of

2:52

what accountability means although the

2:55

problems on the ground are many and I

2:58

don’t think that this step in particular

3:02

in particular although necessary is

3:04

going to make the life of the

3:06

Palestinians in Gaza any better in the

3:08

in the in the immediate short term I

3:11

mean in the last 24 hours the the

3:14

attacks on the population of

3:16

Gaza have intensified but the this

3:20

decision represents an historical and

3:23

overdue step toward dismantling the

3:25

decades long impunity enjoyed by by

3:29

Israel and it’s a I mean it’s a moment

3:32

that signals a pivotal turning point in

3:35

the global pursuit of Justice holding

3:37

Israel leaders accountable and also the

3:41

state apparatus that has allowed Decades

3:44

of impunity and including what I for me

3:47

it’s without the without any doubt a

3:50

genocide so it is the opportunity to H

3:53

to hold that status apparatus

3:55

accountable for orchestrating and perpet

3:58

perpetuating

4:00

the gravest international

4:04

crimes so so what happens what happens

4:07

now you know as you know following a

4:09

year of genocide with very little um you

4:12

know um action you know to con to

4:15

actually condemn Israel uh I mean

4:18

condemning Israel has happened but very

4:19

little concrete action to stop the

4:21

genocide a lot of people including

4:23

myself I’ve lost trust in international

4:26

Justice and international law

4:28

international Humanity militarian law

4:31

but um it’s different with the IC right

4:34

it’s it’s a binding decision what does

4:36

it mean now for the

4:38

124 states that are signatory to the ICC

4:42

and the Rome statute do they have a

4:44

binding obligation to act yes well let

4:47

me say that when we talk

4:49

about uh the right of self-determination

4:52

of the Palestinians that has been

4:53

crucially reaffirmed by the

4:55

international court of justice this year

4:57

ordering the immediate I mean as rapidly

5:00

as possible uh the dismantlement of the

5:02

occupation the dismantlement of the

5:05

military apparatus in the West Bank the

5:07

Gaza Strip and Jerusalem the

5:09

dismantlement of the settlements the end

5:11

of the uh control of Israel Over

5:14

Palestinian national sorry natural

5:18

resources um this is all binding because

5:20

it’s premised upon uh erga omness

5:23

obligations of member states so there is

5:25

a critical element of law of State

5:28

responsibility uh that has been violated

5:30

but also the provisional measures

5:32

ordered by the international court of

5:34

justice this year in the genocide case

5:37

initiated by South Africa they are

5:39

binding so but you’re right these adds

5:42

something more because it uh imposes an

5:47

obligation on all member states party to

5:51

the Rome statute to

5:54

arrest uh the the the the IND indicted

5:58

uh the the identified

6:00

um responsible so the two Israeli

6:04

leaders and one Hamas leader this is a

6:07

crucial step toward ending Decades of

6:09

suffering and ensuring the

6:10

accountability particularly this is a

6:13

test for the Western world because I I

6:16

would disagree with you it’s not that

6:18

all member states have done very little

6:21

member states in the global South have

6:23

done more than any anyone else including

6:27

incl I mean particularly South Africa

6:29

but this is a test for the Western World

6:32

particularly the the states parties to

6:35

the Rome status state to demonstrate

6:37

their commitment to International

6:40

Justice uh to international law and here

6:43

as I’ve often said the system is at a

6:46

Breaking Point either it is strengthened

6:49

by accountability and respect for

6:51

fundamental principles of international

6:53

law or it will

6:57

break so in concrete terms let’s say um

7:01

if Netanyahu or Galant or Mohammed Dave

7:05

um travels tomorrow to

7:07

Spain what are the Spanish

7:10

authorities obligated to do yes uh to

7:16

arrest to arrest them to arrest them and

7:19

make sure they are transferred to the he

7:22

so for the trial to start so look the

7:26

laws the international laws that have

7:28

been uh uh breached are very clear and

7:32

the evidence of crimes and violations is

7:36

overwhelming beyond what has been used

7:40

relied upon within the realm and the

7:43

confines of the current investigation

7:45

initiated by the the office of the

7:48

prosecutor but we know that the IC has

7:51

no power power to enforce the arrest

7:54

warrants on its own so the power rests

7:57

with the governments of the world so yes

8:00

there is an obligation to arrest and

8:03

it’s very interesting the reaction that

8:05

has been registered by member states

8:08

it’s a clear black and white there are

8:10

member states who have who have uh said

8:14

that they would they would comply with

8:16

the ICC uh with the ICC arrest warrants

8:21

which is totally obvious to me there are

8:23

member states who have uh who

8:28

have like

8:30

really asserted unable

8:33

unable um that who have made untenable

8:37

arguments um accusing the court of being

8:40

anti-semitic accusing the court of

8:42

having made a comparison between Israeli

8:46

leaders and terrorists so again these

8:48

denotes the immense bias that rests with

8:52

this with this countries but again I

8:54

want to stress that governments are

8:56

morally and legally obliged to to ensure

9:00

that um war criminals do not go

9:02

unpunished and let me say there is

9:04

another there is a flip side of it what

9:07

the international criminal court does is

9:10

operating delivering Justice over

9:12

International crimes on the basis of

9:14

complimentarity this doesn’t absolve

9:17

member states from their uh

9:19

responsibility to investigate and

9:22

prosecute International crimes uh

9:25

including the crime of genocide there

9:28

therefore I do expect that member states

9:31

initiate their own investigations over

9:34

war crimes crimes against humanity and

9:36

the crime of including the crime of

9:38

apartheid and the crime of genocide that

9:41

has been committed that have been

9:42

committed in the occupied Palestinian

9:45

territory and there is an even more

9:47

stringent responsibility because a

9:50

number of um people allegedly

9:54

responsible apparently involved in these

9:57

crimes have double nationalities a

9:59

number of them have nationality from the

10:02

UK France Belgium Italy even Arab

10:06

countries I discovered Australia Canada

10:09

the US so it’s an even greater

10:12

responsibility that these states have

10:15

toward Justice ensuring that their

10:18

citizens have are are brought to Justice

10:21

if they have committed uh or they are

10:23

suspected of having committed

10:26

crimes I I wanted to ask you about this

10:28

actually um is it the beginning of the

10:31

inway investigation or or the end what I

10:35

mean by that is could the IC now come

10:39

with more arrest warrants for example I

10:41

mean your recent report um genocide as

10:45

Colonial eraser focused a lot as well

10:48

about on what’s happening in the West

10:49

Bank so could the IC come back with

10:52

arrest warrants for settlers and for

10:55

others or for other sort of senior

10:58

officials yeah I I think that there is

11:00

no doubt that this is the beginning of

11:03

uh a potentially much broader uh

11:07

accountability process for a number of

11:09

reasons first of all because this is

11:11

what the office of the prosecutor and

11:13

through the prosecutor himself uh

11:17

declared months ago when the arrest

11:20

warrants were

11:21

demanded um and um and this leaves a

11:25

room to further arrest warrants but also

11:29

further crimes I was um initially not

11:33

disappointed but surprised by the narrow

11:36

scope of the investigation initiated by

11:40

the office of the prosecutor because he

11:43

has only looked at what has happened in

11:46

the occupied Palestinian territory Gaza

11:48

in particular um after October 7 but

11:52

what about what has happened before

11:54

which amounts

11:56

to war crimes and crimes against

11:58

humanity so these for sure it should be

12:01

broaden but also I think there there are

12:03

questions about the the crimes that um

12:07

the current arrest warrants have been

12:10

issued for because there is the uh the

12:13

crime of starvation of civilians as a

12:17

method of warfare um and as a war crime

12:21

the crime of extermination has not been

12:25

uh has not been identified doesn’t

12:28

appear in the arrest warrants so does it

12:32

mean that the court is not looking into

12:35

a into extermination as someone has uh

12:38

has claimed I don’t think so because my

12:41

understanding is that the office of the

12:44

prosecutor linked extermination

12:46

primarily to starvation and the lack of

12:48

humanitarian aid but in fact in my view

12:51

and there the evidence of the

12:54

extermination is still limited because

12:56

back then within the cutting date of the

12:59

investigation uh which is May this year

13:02

uh only 40 only 46 people had been

13:06

reported uh having died because of

13:08

starvation but there is extermination

13:11

and the numbers are shocking we are

13:14

talking of almost

13:16

45,000 people are certained uh killed

13:20

primarily by bombing a sniper fire

13:23

including 177,000 children so the the

13:26

crime of Investigation is still uh to be

13:29

investigated and prosecuted Again by

13:32

connect connected to another sort of

13:35

evidence not linked to starvation per

13:38

se and I’ve read the the press release

13:41

that the court issued um yesterday Court

13:44

said that um they have really strong you

13:48

know they strongly believe that these

13:49

crimes are continuing right now and also

13:53

I think they’ve mentioned something very

13:54

important they’ve mentioned the

13:56

intentional targeting of the civilian

13:59

population because we’ve heard over and

14:01

over and over again from the Israeli

14:03

press office from the Israeli Prime

14:05

Minister from the US from the lot of

14:08

people in the mainstream media yes a lot

14:11

of civilians have died but poor them

14:13

it’s collateral damage but now the court

14:15

is saying it’s

14:17

intentional this is something very

14:19

serious right absolutely there are so

14:22

many elements that I was surprised to

14:25

see in the arrest warrants and I would

14:28

like to return part particularly to uh

14:31

to a couple of them uh but definitely

14:34

the there is a without saying that there

14:38

is a the the the acknowledgment of what

14:44

I have denounced like um as humanitarian

14:47

camouflage the fact that Israel uh has

14:50

used concept of international

14:53

humanitarian law which if observed would

14:57

have prevented the

14:59

these numbers of people killed for

15:02

example Israel has has not denied the

15:06

the the the numbers of people killed

15:08

yeah we might have complained at times

15:11

that they were inflated but because now

15:14

they have beened and verified with

15:17

identity um name family name identity

15:20

numbers associated with them it’s it’s

15:23

it cannot be denied however Israel has

15:25

Justified this killings as saying

15:28

blaming Hamas saying that Hamas was

15:31

hiding uh and using the

15:34

population of Gaza as human Shields this

15:37

has not been proved I’m not saying that

15:39

this didn’t happen but then not only

15:41

there is no evidence that Hamas has not

15:43

used Palestinians as human Shields as a

15:46

method of War there is evidence that

15:48

Israel has used Palestinians as human

15:51

Shields also um we cannot interpret

15:55

international law does not allowed to

15:58

interpret Shield as a blanket argument

16:01

to obscure the fact the fact that Urban

16:04

Gua

16:06

um

16:07

Warfare implies the moving of um

16:11

combatants in uh in a he in a heavily

16:14

populated areas which implies more

16:16

precautions to be taken by the

16:19

belligerant parties another element is

16:21

collateral damage this is a an affront

16:25

to the meaning the pure meaning of

16:27

principles of distinct iction precaution

16:30

proportionality in the military conduct

16:33

and also the way Israel has used the

16:35

concept of evacuation zones sorry

16:38

evacuation orders and safe zones we know

16:41

that evacuation orders are that have

16:43

been issued are not in compliance with

16:46

international law because it they have

16:48

failed the principle of Distinction and

16:50

the principle of military necessity but

16:52

also what were the precautions taken how

16:54

the safety of the forcibly displaced

16:57

Palestinians not evacuated from possibly

16:59

displac Palestinians were met where were

17:01

the the shelters where was the

17:04

humanitarian Aid the food the Medical

17:06

Aid afforded to these people and Al also

17:10

the the safe zones have been bombed

17:13

there are people who have been burned

17:14

alive intense so look it’s it’s

17:17

untenable and I’m so glad the court

17:19

picked on this the first question is are

17:22

you worried that Israel will actually

17:23

react even more feroc you know

17:26

ferociously in in Gaza and the second

17:29

part is why did you think it was

17:31

important to write this report genocide

17:33

as Colonial eraser so first of all this

17:36

is the second report I write on the

17:38

topic of genocide h a report that I it

17:42

was clearly not in my mind as I started

17:47

and as I travel through the first year

17:49

and a half of my mandate as a special

17:52

report so when I uh wrote anatomy of a

17:57

genocide uh highlighting that there were

18:00

uh reasonable grounds to believe that

18:02

Israel had committed acts of genocide

18:04

and had used international humanitarian

18:06

law in fact as a camouflage uh for its

18:09

crimes and its its conduct um I thought

18:14

that this would contribute on the one

18:16

hand to the work of the of the Court

18:18

which somewhat it did somewhat it did

18:21

because the the South African legal team

18:23

has used some of the argument I made but

18:25

also I would have expected a greater

18:27

response uh uh from member states

18:30

greater pressure particularly because

18:31

there is an obligation that the court

18:33

has mentioned for member states not to

18:37

transfer weapons to a state that might

18:39

be committing atrocities and this was uh

18:42

uh established in the Nicaragua versus

18:46

Germany case so after the release of my

18:50

report in fact anatomy of genocide I’ve

18:52

noticed and this is an this links to the

18:55

first question you were asking I’ve

18:57

noticed that at

18:59

legal development at the international

19:01

Justice level there has been a sort

19:05

of apparent

19:07

Vengeance uh against the Gaza Strip

19:11

certain massacres have occurred in the

19:13

immediate after math of the of the icj

19:18

provisional measures or uh the ICC

19:21

arrest warrants and same yesterday as I

19:24

said I I still need to go through the

19:26

entire evidence that comes out out of

19:29

that but in the past 24 hours I have

19:31

received notice of nine massacres that

19:34

have been carried out so I’m really

19:36

scared of the impact that this important

19:39

development might have on the people of

19:41

Gaza but going to my my report why did I

19:44

write a second report because genocide

19:47

was continuing and genocide was

19:49

continuing as a as as part of a of a

19:53

long trajectory over Erasure of the

19:55

Palestinian people especially in the

19:57

past six months the elements of

20:00

Vengeance and the rasure have

20:02

intensified for example the discourse of

20:05

pal the discourse of Israeli leaders

20:08

wanting to resettle Gaza starting from

20:12

the northern uh Gaza uh which is matched

20:16

by the evidence on the ground and the

20:18

recent statements of the military that

20:20

they will not allow the population uh

20:23

forcibly displaced from northern Gaza to

20:25

return the fact that the settlers have

20:28

visited several times Northern Gaza and

20:30

even made plans to how to rebuild the

20:33

settlements The Continuous call for

20:36

forceable transfer and ethnic cleansing

20:39

of the entire occupied Palestinian

20:41

territory The Continuous land grab in

20:44

the West Bank so I took a step back from

20:47

all these and I said what is the plan

20:50

here because the genocidal intent is

20:53

pretty clear but it needs to be

20:55

understood Beyond any reasonable ground

20:58

and this is why I refer to Greater

21:00

Israel greater Israel has been pursued

21:04

since the very foundation of the state

21:06

of Israel and since the very beginning

21:08

of the occupation of what remained of

21:11

historical Palestine I understand that

21:14

there was opposition to this within

21:15

Israel among many including many in the

21:18

military system nonetheless the facts on

21:21

the ground reveal that this plan has

21:24

continued today 60% of the Gaza Strip is

21:28

completely under Israel’s control the

21:30

this Jerusalem is completely annexed

21:33

which is a crime and Gaza is happening

21:36

so I think that in line with what has

21:39

happened in other uh cases um genocide

21:44

is a especially settler Colonial

21:47

genocides this genocide has happened as

21:49

a as a means to an end as a means to

21:53

advance Israel’s settler Colonial plan

21:56

and so the intent is clear and shouldn’t

21:59

be confused with the motives Frank I

22:01

mean I know that Israeli leaders have

22:03

said we are here to eradicate AAS

22:06

whatever it means we are here to um

22:09

Liberate the hostages and simply defeat

22:11

a mass this is not matched by the

22:13

reality on the ground and this might be

22:15

motives but it it doesn’t nothing of

22:17

this um disprove the main intent meaning

22:22

the determination of Erasure and

22:24

Destructor which has been said

22:26

predicated and enacted upon so it’s a

22:30

it’s a long it’s the it’s a escalation

22:32

of a steady violence against the

22:35

Palestinians which has been over

22:38

especially 57 years of occupation Fast

22:40

Pace low Pace at different times of

22:43

history but again we cannot miss the

22:46

forest for the

22:50

trees thank you

22:52

Francesca um you know gra for for you

22:56

know it’s it’s was very important to um

22:59

to highlight you know the you know way

23:02

what’s happening at the IC but I think

23:04

it’s crucial as You’ just said you know

23:07

and did to put it in you know to put it

23:10

Israel’s action in the broader context

23:13

um of the anyway of the great Israel

23:15

project so um so again thank you uh

23:19

thank you Franchesca thank you very much

23:21

Frank