Palestina, erresilientzia (78)

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1807069131247673526

Hasiera:

Gogoratu ondoko hau: Pascal Lottaz eta ICJ delakoa

Segida:

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1828051214631673999

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Thomas Fazi@battleforeurope

From thomasfazi.com

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(https://www.thomasfazi.com/p/the-israel-lobby-is-failing)

Ilan Pappé: “Despite its tremendous influence over the American political system, AIPAC has proven unable to stem the systemic shift in public opinion regarding Israel — in America and globally“

Thomas Fazi

Aug 26, 2024

The Israeli historian and political scientist Ilan Pappé has just published a new book called Lobbying for Zionism on Both Sides, a masterful counter-history of the pro-Israel lobby. In it, Pappé tracks Zionism’s evolution from a relatively marginal European ideology to one of the most powerful forces in American (and Western) politics.

Pulitzer-winning journalist and commentator Christ Hedges has just published a long interview with Pappé, in which the author goes over the book’s main themes: Among other things, Pappé explains how the Zionist movement originally comprised various ideological strands. Early Zionists were separated into two ideological groups: the religious Zionists, who actually believed in a messianic connection to historic Palestine, as well as protecting marginalised Jews, and those who the Israeli author describes as “more cynical”; the imperialists, or those “who saw the theological ideas as a good pretext for fulfilling more secular political roles. […] They wanted not only Palestine, but also Syria and Egypt to expand the British empire”.

Pappé covers a lot of historical ground — including the very cynical reasons for which Britain and other Western governments initially supported the Zionist settler-colonial project in Palestine — so I strongly recommend you listen to the whole interview.

He then moves on to talk about the contemporary Israel lobby, especially in the United States — i.e., AIPAC. The most interesting part is where he explains how AIPAC, despite its tremendous influence over the American political system, has proven unable to stem the systemic shift in public opinion regarding Israel — in America, especially among the young, and globally — and has actually contributed to it by enabling the most unhinged Israeli policies. Here’s a snippet from the talk on this topic:

And for those of you who, like me, prefer to read rather than to listen, here’s a transcript of the conversation:

Chris Hedges: You argue at the end of the book that, in essence, the lobby is counterproductive to Israeli interests itself. So let’s talk about since October 7, the role of the lobby, what it’s done and I think it’s kind of spinning its wheels in the mud. I don’t think that it’s working.

Ilan Pappé: No, it’s not. It’s kind of decided to frame as its enemies, young people, conscientious sections of the American civil society, minority groups, people who maybe people mainstream America may consider some of them naive, but very few people would regard them as immoral or enemies of the state. And this is the main problem of the lobby now. Its enemies are people that actually have a spirit that, in the past, America used to admire. Secondly, some of them belong actually to the American elites, definitely the students, and the whole discourse that is brought, that the lobby is trying to fight, is a moral discourse.

Yes, you can bomb a moral discourse to a certain extent. We saw it in the pressure on the presidents of universities, or in Jewish alumni withdrawing money from certain universities. You still use money and force, but you don’t really kill a movement of solidarity that has the same impulses that the anti-Vietnam [war] movement had, that the civil rights movement had. You cannot kill it with money. And therefore you’re right, they’re stuck in the mud, because it’s not a question of convincing the American Congress to give more money to Israel or sell more arms. 

Yes, they can still do that, but they have never had the right methods, and they will never have, I think, the right weapons, if you want, to fight against systemic changes in public opinion that are based on moral values or knowing the reality, or, as you say rightly, on the daily images of a genocide. There is a limit in the 21st century [to] how much you can do that. And they don’t have the kit of tools anymore to deal with it, and therefore I don’t think they will be succeeding unless other factors would not change public opinion in a direction that I think is changing. And of course, they still have the chunk of call it maybe the Trump base in America. They can still unite with them. There’s no need to pressure these guys, but they understand that they’re losing a very important section of America, that they divided American society.

Chris Hedges: And they’ve lost the facade. I mean, they may get support from Trump, but they’ve lost that facade. And just to buttress that point, you write:

The way AIPAC decided who Israel’s enemies were often had very little to do with the actual policies, which were frequently to Israel’s advantage. They decided simply based on how obedient an administration was to the lobby. America’s endorsement of the Oslo Accords was not a milestone on the road to peace for AIPAC, but a testimony to its own failure to influence American policy.

And you make that point throughout the book, that it no longer becomes whether it’s good or bad for Israel, but they have to constantly assert their hegemony within the American political system.

Ilan Pappé: Absolutely.

Finally, Pappé talks about how he believes Israel’s actions since October 7 have sown the seeds for the demise of the Zionist project — in the longer run at least:

I think in the end — and I don’t know if it’s a year or two or three years from now — [Israel’s occupation, brutalisation and outright genocide] of the Palestinians will] be something that important regional and international actors [will no longer] tolerate. They’re still tolerating it, but will not tolerate it [forever]. […] Even people in the global states, in the Global North [are beginning to think] that Israel needs to be treated differently. We definitely already heard it from the ICJ and the ICC. 

I really believe that Israel as it stands now doesn’t stand a chance of surviving in the long run as a Jewish state. But again, I’m warning that this, before that would happen, before there is a collapse or disintegration, there is a very dangerous period of that state trying to do all it can, without any inhibitions, to maintain its power, its survival, and I’m very worried for the short run, including a continuation of the genocide, and not just in Gaza, also in the West Bank. But I really think that if I were a young Palestinian, I would hopefully believe that I’m young enough, hopefully, to see something else in the more distant future. And I really believe in it, it’s not just wishful thinking. It’s not the words of an activist [but of] someone who follows the history of Israel and Zionism. I’m 100 percent convinced we are at the midst of the last chapter in this Zionist project in Palestine. And last chapters are violent, they are decolonisation kind of chapters. I’m worried and at the same time I’m more hopeful for the long distance.

To be clear, Pappé is a supporter of the so-called one-state solution: i.e., a single state comprising the currently recognised state of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with citizenship and equal rights for all residents — Jewish and Palestinian — regardless of their ethnicity or religion. He explains his view on the matter here:

The two-state solution was never viable. There were times when, maybe, it looked a little more viable for a few weeks after the June 1967 war, when the Jewish settlers came to the West Bank. But it was not viable even then, because it did not fit the basic policy of the Zionist movement since its inception and its arrival in Palestine in the late 19th century. Zionism is a settler-colonial movement and Israel is a settler-colonial state.

Its support — and this includes what is even called the “peace camp” in Israel — for a two-state solution is an idea that says that you do not have to directly control every part of historical Palestine in order to establish your dominance and hegemony between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean. So, if you can squeeze the Palestinians into small Bantustans and allow them to have a flag and a semblance of a government, there are quite a few Israelis who do not mind at all, so long as this will be the last and final kind of settlement for the Palestine question. Which means no real political rights for the Palestinians, no right of return for the refugees, and keeping all Palestinians in different parts of historical Palestine, at best as second-rate citizens, at worst, as subjects in an apartheid state.

I think the two-state solution was never a viable solution because what really mattered was the Israeli interpretation of the two-state solution. This interpretation was always accepted unconditionally by the United States. Because of this, even the European countries did not dare to challenge this interpretation and, as we have unfortunately seen recently, some Arab regimes are also beginning to accept the Israeli interpretation. For a while, they tried to challenge it in the Arab League’s famous Peace Plan in 2002. This is not being tried any more.

I think we have only had one option since the creation of the State of Israel, and this was to replace a settler-colonial state with a genuine, democratic state for all.

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Ilan Pappé: The Rise and Coming Fall of the Israel Lobby | The Chris Hedges Report

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m6S1iXlsqw

The Israel lobby wields some of the most influence over American politics than any lobbying group in Washington. As Ilan Pappé, the Israeli historian, professor and author, and host Chris Hedges detail in this latest episode of The Chris Hedges Report, the lobby’s rise to power consisted of diverging ideological factions uniting in pursuit of their shared interests in controlling the land of historic Palestine. The history and manifestation of this systemic corruption of the Zionist lobby, hyper-dependent on coercion and total control, is thoroughly described in Pappé’s new book, Lobbying for Zionism on Both Sides of the Atlantic.

(0:00) Intro

(5:29) Zionism as a narrative

(9:29) Wealthy Jews vs poor Jews

(19:46) Ben-Gurion takes over the Zionist project

(22:28) Britain makes Palestine Zionist

(31:49) Palestinian anti-colonial resistance

(41:50) Christian-Zionist lobby

(46:25) Israel lobby after Holocaust and in America

(55:08) AIPAC is born (1:06:30) Israel lobby after October 7

(1:15:42) What’s next for Palestine and Israel?

Transkripzioa:

Intro

0:00

[Music]

0:10

the Israel’s Lobby buying off of nearly every senior politician in the United States facilitated by our system of

0:16

legalized bribery is not an anti-semitic Trope it is a fact the Lobby’s campaign

0:22

of vicious character assassination smearing and blacklisting against those who defend Palestinian rights including

0:29

the is historian Elon poy and University students many of them Jewish in

0:35

organizations such as students for justice and Palestine is not an anti-semitic Trope it is a fact the

0:43

passage of Israeli back legislation requiring workers and contractors under

0:48

the threat of dismissal to sign a pro-israel oath and promise not to support the boycott divestment and

0:55

sanctions movement is not an anti-semitic Trope it is a fact the Shameless cheerleading by most

1:02

members of Congress of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when he addressed Congress in the midst of the

1:10

Gaza genocide is not an anti-semitic Trope it is a fact the US refusal

1:17

including in the United Nations and other International bodies to criticize Israel’s apartheid state and routine

1:24

violation of international law is not an anti-semitic Trope it is a fact

1:30

the well-funded campaigns by the Israel Lobby which works closely with Israel’s

1:36

Ministry of strategic Affairs to discredit any American politician or

1:41

academic who even slightly deviates from Israeli policy is not an anti-semitic

1:47

Trope it is a fact the massive interference in our Internal Affairs by

1:52

Israel and the lobby far exceeding that of any other country including Russia or

1:58

China is not an an Semitic Trope it is a fact Israel’s lackies in the political

2:04

class along with bankrupt courtiers in the US press are making a serious

2:10

mistake however in refusing to acknowledge the outsized transparent and

2:15

often illegal meddling by Israel in the American political system and Israel’s

2:20

brutal oppression of the Palestinians it is too obvious and too egregious to

2:26

hide the longer the ruling Elites ignore this reality and censor and Target those such as representative ilhan Omar or

2:34

Jamal Bowman who lost his congressional seat after seeing the Israel Lobby poor money into the race to defeat him the

2:40

more it gives Credence to the racists bigots conspiracy theorists and white

2:46

hate groups many rooted in the Christian right who are the real anti-semites

2:51

Israel and its Lobby rather than protecting Israel and Jews are steadily

2:57

nullifying their moral and ultimately political force criticism of Israel and

3:04

the ideology of Zionism is not anti-semitic criticism of Israel’s influence and control over US foreign

3:11

policy and of Israeli efforts to silence those who Champion Palestinian rights is

3:17

not anti-semitic criticism of the genocide in Gaza on the occupation of

3:22

Palestine is not anti-semitic the more Israel and the Israel Lobby abuse the

3:28

charge of anti ISM a charge the Israel Lobby leveled against Jeremy Corbin to

3:34

defeat his bid to be prime minister and labor party leader in the UK the more they lose their effectiveness against

3:41

the dangerous anti-semites but Israel and its Lobby do not care if

3:46

its political allies including those in the Christian right and the Trump White House possess warped and racist

3:54

attitudes about Jews the sole Criterion of Israel in the Israel Lobby in determining who support who to support

4:01

and who to demonize is identifying who backs the far-right agenda of the

4:06

apartheid state of Israel and who does not genuine anti-Semitism is irrelevant

4:13

for Israel the world is divided along the fault lines of Palestinian rights

4:18

stand up for the Palestinians and you are an anti-semite cheer their marginalization oppression and murder

4:25

and you are a friend of Jews have Jewish leaders forgotten their own history

4:30

anti-Semitism is wrong and dangerous not only because it is bad for the Jews but

4:36

because the dark Forces of ethnic and religious hatred used by Israel in lobby against its critics are bad for everyone

4:44

including the Jews and the Palestinians Israel has opened this

4:49

Pandora’s box of evils at its own Peril joining me to discuss the history and

4:54

reach of the Israel Lobby in the US and the UK is the Israeli historian Elan

5:00

professor of history at The Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies and director of the European Center for Palestine

5:07

studies at the University of exiter in the UK who has long been a target for

5:12

zionists his new book lobbying for Zionism on both sides of the Atlantic

5:18

explores how a century of aggressive Zionist lobbying has impacted and deformed the Middle East as well as the

5:25

political landscape in the US and Britain so Elan in the beginning of your

5:31

book you write in the history of lobbying for Zionism uh you call it a history of prophets very committed

5:38

individuals like the Earl of Shaftsbury who believed they were guided directly by God and who promulgated an idea that

5:45

metamorphed into a political Crusade we’ve kind of come full circle of course with the settler movement you say before

5:52

anything else Zionism was a narrative can you unpack that for

5:58

us yes definitely I think in the history of all ideologies that do transform

6:05

realities in the end of the day you don’t start with an institution sometimes you you start with ideas that

6:12

are being conceived by individuals but if they are powerful enough and are

6:18

networking properly with alliances ideas which might s seem very

6:24

abstract and theoretical are translated into reality on the ground now these particular

6:32

people I’m talking about in in the early history if you want of noing for Zionism

6:40

were probably uh made of two kinds of of kind of

6:45

personalities you had the more religious ones who uh were very closely connected

6:51

to Evangelical Christianity to not to all Evangelical Christianity but one

6:58

particular kind of stream within Christianity you could call it the restorationist people who

7:04

were very busy writing and thinking about the connection between the what

7:10

they would call The Return of the Jews to the hly land and the the end of time

7:16

uh the return of the Messiah the resurrection of the dead and so on so so

7:22

this was one group of people who were uh devoting much of their life their public

7:30

life sometimes even their private life uh to push forward something that they

7:35

believed was a religious assignment next to them where people were a bit more

7:41

cynical about it and these were people you can call them

7:47

imperialists uh who uh SE the theological

7:52

ideas as a good pretext for fulfilling more secular political rool

8:00

uh in the case of Palestine these were people who were not very comfortable or

8:07

did not uh support the basic British policy throughout the 19th century to

8:13

keep the Ottoman Empire intact uh because people in Britain were

8:18

worried that once the Empire collapses there will be a total war in Europe Over

8:25

The Spoils of the Empire especially the the provinces in Europe and they thought

8:31

that uh it was good actually to hasten uh the fall of the Empire H and

8:38

they wanted not only Palestine but also Syria and Egypt uh to expend the British

8:44

Empire over those areas in order to strengthen both the land and other kind

8:51

of connections between Britain and its Southeastern South Asian uh uh colonies

8:59

uh or interests so so you you you had these uh uh people that probably at the

9:05

time did not look very important because they didn’t have institutions behind them or organizations but when we read

9:13

them in retrospect we see how their ideas once they had institutions behind

9:18

them become strategies programs and then affect the life of people uh uh in a

9:26

very significant way were two aspects of this in the early years of Zionism that

9:31

I found fascinating one is that it was a top- down movement very little uh popular

9:37

support uh a lot of this especially by the wealthy uh European zionists it was

9:43

about moving uh people under Russian occupation or in Eastern Europe from the

9:49

Shettles but not going themselves um and the second was an absolute misreading of

9:57

the power of well let’s call it what they called it World jewelry can you

10:03

talk about those two aspects yes definitely um there was again here I

10:10

think a mixture of a genuine concern and a more cynical one I think some of uh

10:16

the people such as the the one who is regarded as the Founding Father uh or

10:23

the the main prophet of the Zionist movement on the Jewish side Theodor Herzel who I think were genu moved by

10:30

the plight of Europeans of Jews I’m sorry especially in Eastern Europe under

10:36

the Russian Empire uh that as it became more and more nationalistic that kind of

10:42

Russian nationalism was also more anti-semitic uh than the previous kind of

10:48

zist overall ideas of what Russia was so I think there was a genuine wish to help

10:56

uh the the Russian Jews uh uh but at the same time there was a great worry that

11:03

the uh kind of anti-Semitic policies of Russia the more nationalist Russia would

11:08

push these Jews uh into the West into Germany uh Britain and even to the

11:15

United States and and by the time that these uh uh I call them the anglo-jewish

11:21

aristocrats and the non-jewish Anglo Aristocrats were kind of looking at the

11:27

idea this mixture of a concern for people who are under persecution on the

11:32

one hand and and a more cynical worry from waves of immigration when they were

11:38

sort of thinking about these issues already the first groups of Jews have already arrived in London especially

11:45

from Romania and Russia and uh you have we have to all remember that we are

11:50

talking about Russia uh with the beginning of also bolik ideas and

11:57

socialist ideas so they didn’t only see them as an economic burden because most

12:02

of them were very poor but also people who were motivated by revolutionaries

12:07

ideas that could undermine the political stability in Britain and later uh in in

12:13

the United States so you had uh uh this kind of uh a mixture of concern uh and

12:21

and and cynical ideas and I think that some of the people who were involved in

12:28

this this arist rats uh you know especially I think second CH second sons

12:34

and third sons who had more time to to deal with this issue even in a scholarly

12:40

way if you want to uh fell in love with the idea that maybe the Jews were a

12:45

nation to themselves uh which was both an anti-semitic idea and a philosemitic

12:50

idea namely if the Jews are a nation to themselves they’re not British but if they are a nation to themselves they can

12:57

still serve a very important role in history especially if you are a religious Pious Christian uh or Jew for

13:05

for that matter so you had these kind of mixture of uh imperialist

13:11

impulses anti-semitic philosemitic I call it is even islamophobic when he

13:17

came eventually to decide who would rule Palestine in this genuine uh care for

13:24

for people who were suffering from racist uh persecution

13:29

uh and it serves different purposes for for different people but the most

13:34

important thing is of course uh and that’s what you mentioned and I think that’s very important I’m not sure how

13:41

many people understand that that the one of the major I’m not saying the only one

13:46

but as I say in the book one of the major motives for leaders of the Jewish

13:53

community in Britain to support the idea of the Jews going from Russia to

13:59

Palestine was the fear that these Jews would come to London this is this is important because

14:06

this is where they would connect with someone like Arthur balur who in 1905

14:12

1906 were passing you know legislation in Parliament to make sure the Jews

14:17

would not be able to enter Britain this went together between anti-semite

14:23

non-jews and Jews who were I would call them anti-site to a certain extent

14:29

against Jews who uh were not like them for centuries part of the British

14:35

Society so Palestine became this receptor for these people for good

14:41

reasons and for more cynical reasons this was supposed to be the place where the problem of Jews if if you really

14:48

cared about it in Russia would be solved where the problem of Jews that might

14:54

come and undermine your social and econom and political stability would be solve and where Jews might even

15:01

contribute to the end of time if you were a restorationist Evangelical chrisan and

15:08

there was a political divide because uh socialism was an ideology that much of

15:15

the working class embraced uh on the eve of World War I uh both in Britain and

15:21

the United States but the hierarchy or the the the leaders of the Zionist movement were very wary of uh socialism

15:30

and I just want to throw in because it’s a fascinating point that you make in the book is that eventually the Socialist

15:36

European socialist movements embrace the Zionist project and the only uh people

15:43

that call it out for the sett or Colonial project that it is are the Marxist leninist yeah yes it’s quite

15:50

incredible isn’t it it’s like um you worry that socialism would be brought by

15:56

these Jewish immigrants into the heart of Britain but if these socialists want to try and

16:03

play if you want with socialism in Palestine that’s fine that doesn’t

16:08

that’s actually less dangerous and and I think that’s why you had these kind of aristocrats or the

16:17

political Elite of Jews who really made it in Britain to the highest positions in government or in businesses who

16:24

definitely if you would talk to them in principle about socialism they would be very very much against it but if they

16:30

you would tell them that uh you know the Zionist settlers in Palestine are trying

16:36

to create socialist Havens like a kibuts or or something similar to that before

16:43

the the kibuts came into into being they would have nothing against it and and

16:48

this this is the whole game of Zionism it is a a solution for a certain group

16:55

of Jews uh that is developed by by a certain group of Jews who are not part

17:01

of that project but that project serves other interest that they have and of course as I all the time mentions every

17:08

10 pages so that I don’t forget it and that the readers don’t forget it all

17:13

this is about a country where already someone else lived in it right we should

17:19

never forget it that this whole game whether it was an abstract intellectual

17:24

imagination or emotional imagination when it becomes real political programs

17:29

all the time in the background we should remember this is about a place where already someone else lives as an organic

17:38

Society uh but that seems to be a totally irrelevant uh fact to those who

17:45

try to think of Palestine as a solution from a theological point of view

17:50

imperialist point of view or even a genuine uh humanist point of view

17:56

looking for a solution for people who suffer from anti-semitic persecution and

18:01

when it does come up the Zionist argument and the argument of those who support Zionism is that the indigenous

18:09

population will be better off because of the settler Colonial project yeah

18:14

absolutely and um uh I think the other tactic is to kind of

18:21

downplay uh the indigeny of the population uh by sort of referring to

18:28

its nomadic Nature by by its less of development you know so they can’t

18:33

really have the same aspiration for selfdetermination and nationalism as as

18:39

as the Jews uh it’s kind of a native that is not European and therefore their

18:48

Collective aspirations does do not have to play a very important role even if they are

18:54

recognized in some cases they’re not even recognized as I say in the book some of the family members of the same

19:02

Jewish Aristocrats who supported Zionism one of the reason they they were against

19:07

Zionism I the main reason was that they worried that Jews would be you know blamed of being having dual nationality

19:14

dual loyalty but some of them in their uh writings are also against it because

19:21

they are aware that this is not the land without people waiting for people without land and they warn that actually

19:28

Jews would would be part of a project very early on so to my great surprise when I found it that this would be at

19:35

the expense of the people who live there and and this was in the very beginning when they heard about Zionism and

19:41

understood what this ideology means for the people in Palestine itself talk

19:47

about the shift of power So eventually you have figures like David benorian who uh lives in

19:54

Palestine uh and is organizing he himself was a socialist uh the uh Sellar

20:02

Colonial project and power shifts away from these European Aristocrats these European zionists into the hands of

20:08

figures like benan that’s a very important moment in in the history of the Zionist movement explain what

20:15

happened yeah that that is very very important because um I I think there

20:21

were and and I described what I thought was a very important moment and very

20:27

important meeting in London in the headquarters of the Zionist movement when there actually all these uh members

20:34

of the anglo-jewish elite are being actually told by emissaries on behalf of

20:40

David benuron that they are not leaving the Zionist movement they would not

20:45

determine what Zionism is or what the Jewish state would be and their role is

20:51

really to be a Lobby a propaganda machine for Zionism that was a very

20:56

important moment because uh what benuron understood as I suppose

21:02

some of the leaders of the white sett settlers in America understood that

21:07

while you need the British Empire to set a foothold in Palestine there will be a

21:13

moment when the interest of the Empire and your own interest will clash and he

21:18

didn’t want these Anglo zionists who might still be also loyal British citizens uh to interfere in the Zionist

21:27

plan not only to colonize Palestine and to De arabize it but also to seed it

21:34

from the British Empire and make it an independent Jewish state so this is the moment where they have to decide whether

21:42

they’re willing to be advocates for uh a policy that is formulated by Jews that

21:48

just 20 30 years before that they had a very lofty attitudes towards them as

21:55

Eastern European Jews uneducated uh and just po people who needs a safe place to be in but they’re

22:02

becoming their own uh they’re actually becoming employed by these Jews who are

22:07

now running the show in Palestine some of these anglo-jewish members of the

22:14

elite would distance themselves uh from Zionism because of that they will not

22:19

become anti-zionists but they didn’t want to serve as the uh you know part of

22:24

this what I call the pro Zionist Lobby in Britain I mean we’ll talk about this

22:30

later but at the end of the book you really talk about the Zionist Lobby

22:35

perpetuating itself at at this point at the expense of Israel is the argument that you make but let’s uh let’s go back

22:42

to what’s happened in uh Palestine on uh the eve of World War II uh you uh you

22:50

write the catastrophy that befell the Palestinians in 1948 this is the knocko

22:56

when 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed and the Jewish state was founded was not because

23:02

Britain decided sometime between 1915 and 1917 to take over Palestine but

23:08

because it was persuaded to make Palestine

23:13

Zionist um I I think that’s a very important point because uh a superficial

23:19

reading of history is often that uh because of the Mandate Britain controlled Palestine uh seizing it in

23:27

World War from the ottom Empire in World War I up until 1948 but you argue that

23:32

it was always about the Zionist project absolutely uh you have to

23:38

remember that from a British strategic point of view before the first world war

23:45

the the parts of the otoman Empire which were important were parts that had strategic value for the Empire like Iraq

23:52

and Egypt because they they they were the the connection to to India or later

23:58

on when oil is discovered in in the Arabian Peninsula or in Persia in Iran

24:04

that is uh then these become very important places uh if you would have asked anyone who was kind of involved in

24:12

strategizing for the Empire they would tell you that Palestine has very little strategic value uh so yes if you were a

24:20

devout Christian you would say it has a lot of value because of its uh religiosity but strategically speaking

24:27

it was not not that important uh for Britain so uh I think that uh there was

24:34

always a danger from a Zion perspective that unless you convince Britain that a Zionist state is good for the British

24:41

Imperial uh setup that Britain would be willing for instance as he was at times

24:47

to share the rule of Palestine with France or making it a more International

24:53

place because it is so holy to all three religions uh but I think that’s the

24:58

that’s the greatest success of the Zionist Lobby of finding enough important people among the policy makers

25:05

in Britain to convince them that the British interest was uh would be best

25:10

served not just by having Palestine but making Palestine a Jewish State and I

25:16

claim in the book that every now and then more reasonable I would say kind of

25:22

British policy makers were not totally convinced and that’s why the lobby was very intensively working

25:29

on it and uh needed very strong

25:35

Believers in Zionism uh and it’s very interesting to compare for instance how

25:41

they worked with David Lloyd who was a liberal and Christian and how they

25:47

worked with the emerging labor party so to one side they sold the idea of uh uh

25:54

you know the kind of end of time uh the Fulfillment of the End of Time prophecy

25:59

if you David Lloyd would support the the idea of a Jewish State and this would

26:05

return you know the days of the Crusaders bringing back the holy land to Christianity and to the labor party they

26:12

sold it as a paragon of socialism uh uh they were very clever and uh I have to give it to them and

26:19

they really kind of tailored The Narrative what the Jewish state is to to

26:25

the to the potential allies they needed first of all in Britain because Britain was most important until 1948 for the

26:32

faith in Palestine and then afterwards when they understood that the power shifted to America they did the same in

26:38

the United States you’re talking about David Lloyd George the former prime minister uh who ended up embracing the

26:45

Zionist uh project and as you note in the book he was also employed by the Zionist his law firm uh so he had a

26:53

financial interest in the perpetuation of Zionism and it’s also interesting that although he was a socialist his

27:00

vision or view of Palestine in the Middle East was really colored by the

27:05

very Christian household in which he had grown up and he would use these kind of

27:11

biblical terms to refer to what was happening uh in uh

27:17

Palestine um you know the balfor Declaration it’s well known this is the commitment very very short but the

27:25

commitment on the part of the uh British government in the middle of World War II to build a Zionist State and appeal to

27:33

uh the kind of conspiracy theories that Worldwide Jewelry in America and every would bring America into the war and the

27:39

Germans might co-opt Worldwide Jewelry I it was complete fantasy um but it we it

27:45

should be noted because it colored uh British uh policy uh let’s talk about

27:52

what was happening on the ground in Palestine so you uh on the first aniversary this is from from your book

27:59

of the Bal for declaration Palestinians demonstrated in large numbers all over Palestine against it from that moment

28:05

onwards a Consolidated Palestinian national movement led by a younger

28:10

generation of urban professionals and intellectuals alongside traditional heads of rural and urban Clans commenced

28:17

an anti- colonialist struggle for 9 years 1920 1929 the activity consisted

28:24

of petitions participation in negotiations with the British government

28:29

while building a democratic political structure where parties could elect their representatives to an annual

28:34

National Conference uh the consensual position was clear total rejection of

28:40

the Bal for declaration and opposition to Jewish immigration to Palestine the

28:45

Zionist purchase of land and colonization from the moment it began and I think this point uh is uh an

28:54

important one because much of the argument by zionists is is that the Palestinians had no national

29:01

identity that’s right and uh I think as I said before this is one one of the

29:07

arguments that their supporters use to say you don’t have to worry about the aspirations of uh the the local people

29:16

because they don’t have these National aspirations now like anyone else in the

29:22

area uh the the national aspirations were not there was no need to at first

29:28

there was no need to articulate them in such an assertive way because if you look at Iraq Jordan or Lebanon it was

29:35

clear that yes you had Colonial or EXC Colonial Powers now having a mandate

29:40

from the League of Nations and eventually these countries would become nation states and you could have

29:47

expected from a Palestinian point of view that the same thing would happen in Palestine and therefore you don’t have a

29:54

very active intensive need to articulate a Palestinian national identity until

30:02

the bful Declaration comes with the British occupation when the Palestinians

30:07

realize or their leaders and activists realize that uh it would not be a case

30:13

like Iraq Syria or Lebanon where Iraqis would get Iraq and lebanes would get

30:18

Lebanon no Palestine would was promised to the Jewish national movement Zionism

30:26

and that kind of turned an already existing I would say more dormant more

30:34

evolutionary Palestinian national movement and turn it into more revolutionary one one that understood as

30:40

the years go by uh during the Mandate that if it remains passive uh Palestine

30:48

would never be their Homeland uh let alone they would never be their nation

30:53

state and maybe even not their Homeland and that’s when they become to be

30:59

actively involved in trying to persuade Britain to retract from the Bal

31:05

declaration and actually be loyal to the principle that supposedly after the

31:10

first world war the Victorious allies promised people who were under uh the

31:16

austr Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire namely two principles the principle of self-determination and the

31:23

principle of democracy namely that the majority would decide how self-determination Nation would look

31:29

like and they said why don’t you apply it in Palestine let’s apply the

31:34

majoritarian idea in Palestine and the self-determination for the native indigenous people of Palestine and they

31:41

were told by the British in your case this is impossible because of the Pledge

31:46

the British Empire made to the Zionist movement now also because David Lloyd George greedily saw the expansion of

31:54

Empire as a plus uh for uh for for Britain the irony

32:00

the Socialist prime minister we did finally have a Revolt 1936 1937 I think

32:07

the British have to deploy about 100,000 troops to crush it um it it it

32:13

essentially uh made the 1948 effort to defy the armed uh

32:22

Zionist uh movement that seized most of historic Palestine but the the it was

32:29

timing I mean that Revolt uh which was crushed essentially weakened uh the

32:36

Palestinians to such an extent that by 1948 there was very little they could do

32:42

to resist uh and and we can talk about that Mythic Narrative of what is it six Arab

32:49

Nations attacking um um and that’s of course hyperbolic rhetoric given the

32:55

reality of what happened on the ground but but uh that resistance as you point out in your book was from the Inception

33:03

originally it was nonviolent and then uh of course have being cut off right and

33:08

left and ignored it it erupted into violence absolutely I mean in the

33:14

history of anti-colonialist movements in very few cases you have pacifist

33:20

anti-colonialist movements so yes violence eventually is employed by those who rebel against colonization

33:28

and oppression uh but this is uh a violence which is employed for uh for

33:35

existential reasons uh in order to prevent being colonized and not in the

33:41

case of Palestine not just being colonized by being ethnically cleansed from Palestine uh so so nobody says that

33:49

they haven’t you know eventually used didn’t use an armed struggle but what is

33:54

for me so interesting and again this comes to me as one of the achievements

34:00

of the lobby that even years later you know when you narrate anti-colonialist

34:06

movements in Africa Latin America and Asia you know many years later uh uh

34:12

people say no this these were Noble you know movements of Liberation whether

34:17

they were more violent or less violent and they were right to demand that the

34:22

colonialist empires would leave the colonies and would allow them to be independent

34:28

the great success of the lobby was that many years later this uh natural

34:34

Justified impulse of people to revolt against an attempt to both colonize them

34:40

and then uproot them for years was still regarded as terrorism for the sake of

34:46

terrorism you know something that comes out of a cultural culture of violence

34:51

and not out of the reality of Oppression and I would say that even today in

34:56

Britain and United States I can find a lot of educated people who would still

35:01

say well what the Palestinians are doing is really terrorism and it goes back to

35:07

that period because uh uh definitely in pro-israeli narratives in American and

35:13

British Academia the Revolt we are talking about 1936 to 1939 and even the

35:19

Palestinians attempts to prevent the ethnic cleansing of 1948 are still

35:25

narrated as the early Act terrorism uh you know motivated by

35:31

anti-Semitism uh and by cultural violence rather than uh a classical case

35:37

of colonized people trying to prevent the colonization of their homand well

35:43

when the Zionist militias pre 1948 attempt to drive the British out they

35:49

employ the tactic of terrorism like all resistance movements like Hamas uh the

35:57

the terrorism unfortunately uh thec there the the fln

36:03

and Algeria that is uh in the toolbag uh unfortunately of anti-colonial

36:10

resistance forces but of course they they put a bomb in a satchel or a

36:16

suicide vest because they don’t have an Air Force they don’t have the tools of

36:21

uh let’s call it state or industrial Terror yeah but I do think the Zionist

36:26

terrorism uh was much uh is is more like the one

36:32

used by the French settlers in Algeria when the French government decided to

36:39

end French rule in Algeria uh so so um uh this is where the the settlers feel

36:48

that the Empire according to them should do two things it should of course leave but it

36:54

they should help it them to take over the country which the British didn’t do

36:59

contrary by the way to history books that claim that Britain kind of in 48

37:04

helped the Zionist to take over Palestine no that their sin was being actually neutral not doing anything

37:11

which was as bad as doing that something uh but this this is really what is so

37:18

fascinating about it that again the narrative then Becomes of uh uh the

37:24

Jewish terrorists becoming the Freedom Fighters of the future uh and the Palestinians still remain in

37:30

the image in the west of continuing being a terrorist rather than uh trans

37:38

being transformed in the public eye as so many uh people were transformed eventually like Mandela or the leaders

37:45

of the flm or or nakuma people who were fighting against

37:50

the not to mention Gandhi people were fighting against the British Empire and later on were recognized as leaders of

37:56

the independent decolonized World somehow uh and and I think this is the

38:03

success of the lobby was not to allowing the Palestinians to fall into that

38:08

category where where you are being seen differently once there is a healthy

38:15

moral uh objection to colonialism uh when the world is being decolonized I mean the only difference

38:22

is that of course the French settlers in Algeria were angry because deal and the

38:27

French plan to leave uh whereas The zionists Wanted the British to

38:34

leave that’s true that’s true uh so throughout this period and this has

38:39

crippled the Palestinians you’re right they had nothing equivalent to the Zionist Lobby and their leadership had

38:45

no idea what a powerful enemy they were facing I of course covered ARA thought

38:51

that was as true for the PLO as it was in the 1920s absolutely absolutely it’s uh it’s

38:59

quite incredible and I think part of this naive belief that the leaders had

39:04

that after all they were the majority of the land of the people in the country

39:10

they uh had the promises from the International

39:15

Community uh there the Arab world was around them and would certainly help

39:21

them all that led to certain passivity uh uh compared to the very

39:28

effective mechanism of the Zionist lobby but I think you know I’m I can in

39:35

retrospect uh uh un unrel unpack how powerful the zes lobby was I I don’t

39:43

underestimate how difficult it would have been from uh Palestine to to

39:49

understand it 70% of the Palestinians were living in rural Palestine in

39:55

villages World politics were hardly of any interest to them uh the idea that

40:02

someone in London in Washington was helping other people foreign people to

40:08

plan their uh uh uprooting their displacement was very far from their

40:15

agenda that they could not even begin to think about it and uh it’s very

40:21

interesting to to compare the kind of negotiations which the Zionist Le

40:27

leaders have with the British Empire and later with the United Nation and the Palestinian leaders have with them uh um

40:36

the Palestinians are are kind of keep repeating this idea that surely the

40:42

principle of democracy and self-determination is on their side as if there is no cynical game that could

40:50

really be more important than the pledges made to them by the International Community whereas the zist

40:57

all the time assume that what matters is hardly any pledges or any International

41:03

decisions you know even the partition plan is very clear that Boran tells the

41:08

the people in London forget about the partition plan that what was important is recognition recognition in

41:16

recognition of the um uh of the Jewish state but there was not uh important the

41:23

partition plan itself was not important because Israel border would would be

41:29

determined by the Army and the alliances that he would have in the world and so

41:34

on uh it was a very different take on the code of behavior in the region and

41:41

in the International Community that allowed the Zionist movement to build a very strong Alliance and the

41:47

Palestinians were not able to to match it in any way before we go on I just

41:53

there’s an important point you make because the Christian uh Lobby the Christian Zionist Lobby

42:00

which of course is uh huge today within the Christian right is a natural kind of

42:06

Ally with the zionists uh perhaps at this point Israel’s most important uh

42:13

Ally in terms of popular support in the United States He WR an important pillar of this Coalition was the white settler

42:20

Colonial community in the US I think that’s extremely important whose Elite segments were now easily convinced of

42:26

the religious basis of another sett settler Colonial project this time in

42:32

Palestine so from the beginning the uh the let’s call them Christian zionists

42:38

or Christian fundamentalists their interests and of course they deify our

42:43

own white settler Colonial project uh it’s it’s been a powerful force in

42:50

shaping uh the creation of modern Israel absolutely um it’s it’s uh if you look

42:58

at the uh discourse the language the images uh the early uh European settlers

43:06

uh or some of them uh used when they arrived in the UN what became the United

43:12

States and Canada later on you can see how much the Bible was a

43:17

source of inspiration you know by naming the new settlements places like Zion and on the

43:24

names of biblical uh names and so so on and uh and therefore the

43:31

identification with a similar act uh by by Jewish settlers came first of all

43:37

from the idea that you are actually creating two Zions or two Jerusalem one on the mountain and

43:44

one and one on the land if you want and uh and therefore there was this

43:51

identification of judeo Christian kind of assignment to uh create uh uh a new

44:00

hly land one where the hly land was originally and one in a new in a new

44:06

place and and also it was very easy to associate uh the Palestinians with the

44:13

natives that the European settlers met uh in North

44:19

America and that created this kind of ideological I would say even mental kind

44:25

of associations between the two project the project of creating the United

44:30

States and the creation of Palestine and then you know even if you go to higher

44:36

resolutions you begin to see similarities in the way the frontier is

44:42

discussed uh the frontier where you know you are meeting the Savages or or the

44:48

the non civilized people and you fight in order to

44:53

civilize the next the next space where it’s still where still the natives are

45:00

controlling there there’s even kind of similar quite chilling for me in a way

45:07

appropriation of the indigenous people’s dress called uh some of their folklore

45:15

food and even uh a kind of code of behavior and you appropriated yourself

45:23

in order actually to destroy uh uh the native people through such an

45:30

appropriation uh n chsky once commented cynically that at least

45:37

unlike the Americans the Israelis have never called their lethal weapons in the

45:42

names of uh Native American tribes that they have eliminated like you know like

45:49

the Apachi uh helicopter uh but but the yes these similarities in The Narrative

45:58

that justifies the settler Colonial project the attitude towards the native

46:03

the the indigenous people the appropriation of the indigenous history and customs and eventually the most

46:10

important thing the right to eliminate them uh and the justification for that

46:16

elimination are so similar despite the different historical periods in which

46:22

these two settle Colonial project occurred so let’s go to 1948 and let’s

46:29

focus on the importance of the lobby in the creation of the state of Israel we should note that at the time of the

46:35

balfor Declaration what was it 1917 was that the Bal for year of Bal for I can’t remember um so was B for 1917 so 10% of

46:45

the population in historic Palestine is Jewish half of them are settlers uh of

46:52

course the uh genocide carried out by Germany by the Nazis uh uh uh and then

46:58

uh those who survived that genocide the Jews who survived often were unable to return home especially the places like

47:05

Poland their houses were occupied very similar to what happens of course after 1948 with a Noba uh they have nowhere

47:12

else to go uh and uh this uh you know to a certain in a in a dark way Thrills

47:19

zionists like David beneran and so you have the lobby the the in the name of

47:25

the Holocaust uh Norman felstein wrote his book of course the Holocaust industry and the uh

47:33

sort of appropriation of Jewish suffering but that that’s an extremely important moment and here the lobby is

47:40

key so let’s talk about the lobby what it did after 19 or with 1948 yeah the

47:48

the lobby became very effective in several ways first of all the those who

47:54

operated the lobby mostly David Boran but all the people who helped him with

48:00

already identified I think back in 1942 that uh there is a shift of power

48:07

as far as the Zionist interest is concerned from London to Washington and and gradually they understand that they

48:14

don’t have to work that hard in London anymore but they have to work hard in Washington because that’s eventually

48:21

where the more important decisions about the future of Palestine uh would be made

48:26

and uh and and this is when uh uh they begin to zione I call it in the book the

48:33

Anglo the American Jewish Community which until then is not totally thrilled

48:40

by by Zionism in large numbers and it’s more established institution are not

48:45

necessarily let me just interrupt Elon I mean before before the Holocaust before World War One Zionism especially in the

48:53

United States had very little support exactly exactly and and uh and and even

49:00

the Holocaust itself did not create necessarily among Jews in America support for Zionism it was of course uh

49:07

a a real a genuine concern for for for the uh Jews who were genocided in Europe

49:15

but the lobby was working very hard and effectively to connect uh uh the the

49:22

Holocaust or the fight against uh the possib ility of another Holocaust with

49:28

American Jewish support for a Jewish State uh in Palestine now the problem

49:34

for the lobby was uh on several fronts one that not all the American Jewish

49:40

Community was convinced that uh uh building a Jewish state in Palestine would either solve anti-Semitism or was

49:47

the right response to the Holocaust secondly in those days and I think some

49:53

of your viewers and listeners would find it difficult to to to accept but in those days American policy towards

50:01

places such as Palestine was still very much formulated by the state department

50:07

rather than by the White House and the state department had people that later on those who like them and those who

50:13

dislike them uh equally would call them the arabist namely people who knew Arabic who knew the Arab world and these

50:21

people identified more with the Palestinians one should say and and also

50:26

so the uh total American support for a jewi state in Palestine is undermining

50:32

American interest in the region uh as a whole so you had also a much more uh a

50:39

neutral and professional if you want State Department that rated a problem to the Zionist Lobby in fact to the point

50:46

that even after the partition plan was uh adopted because the petition plan uh

50:53

led to violence on the ground in Palestine immediately after he was adopted in the end of November 1947 the

51:00

state department advised the president and for a while Harry Truman accepted it that maybe America should you know

51:07

withdraw its support for petition and support one Democratic state in Palestine which for few months was the

51:15

official American position until the lobby succeeded pressuring Truman in an

51:20

election year to retract his support for the one state and go back to support petition so they

51:27

had this is not America of today this was a United States where politically

51:33

ideologically you still had some forces at the policymaking level that were

51:40

still doubtful about the wisdom even the Strategic wisdom some of them even about

51:46

the moral wisdom of supporting a Jewish State at the expense uh of Palestine um

51:53

and therefore it was very important for for the lobby to work another and final example is the vote in

51:59

the United Nation uh that eventually decided to recognize the right of the

52:04

Jews to have a state in at least half of Palestine and later also legalized the Takeover of 80% of

52:13

Palestine although most of the colonized world was still not represented in the

52:19

United Nation General Assembly so despite the fact that the United States

52:25

has a lot of influence on the general assembly at that time even then there

52:30

were some member states who were uh not entirely convinced about the idea of a

52:36

Jewish State especially those who were aware about the reality in Palestine so

52:43

the lobby was working day and night to a persuade the president to uh not to

52:52

follow the advice of the state department secondly to use American

52:57

resources to pressure reluctant countries to vote for a Jewish State and

53:04

to make sure that the United States despite moments of unpleasantness and I

53:10

I mentioned them in the book where the United States thinks that the Israeli policy is unacceptable especially not

53:16

allowing the refugees to return despite these moments that the US would maybe

53:22

talk the talk but not walk the walk namely that they can condemn but not do anything significant to change the

53:29

course of history this was a volatile moment for the uh for the lobby and this

53:35

is maybe we should say this this is before APAC in fact I think APAC

53:40

eventually is established in 54 as a far more effective Lobby understanding that they were very

53:48

volatile from a a Lobby perspective there were very volatile moments before

53:54

1954 when AP is EST established and this is one of the conclusion from that

53:59

period that you need a far more aggressive and far more effective Lobby

54:04

so that the bad period of not only Harry Truman but specifically Dwight

54:11

Eisenhower uh Administration will not repeat itself and we just throw in

54:17

1956 the Israelis the French and the British uh attempt to uh seize the Suz

54:24

Canal Nasser uh Gamal AB wants to nationalize the canal and its Eisenhower intervenes and stops that it

54:31

was kind of the end of the British Empire uh we should also note that the arabist who you talk about they were one

54:37

of the first targets of the Zionist Lobby and they were purged from the state department in the 1950s Robert

54:43

Kaplan writes a book about it call the arabis um and that’s how you uh essentially since then turn Israel

54:51

Palestine policy over to figures like Martin indic uh dony blinkin and others

54:57

who are really in essence committed zionists uh and their perspective is completely distorted uh throughout the

55:06

Middle East by uh uh Zionism let’s talk about 1954 APAC is founded uh that

55:13

really is the creation certainly in the United States we can talk a little bit about Britain and I do want to talk about Tony Blair which I didn’t know

55:19

until I read your book in his political fortunes were essentially underwritten

55:25

by the Zionist Lobby uh and allowed him as you point out in the book to ignore the traditional base of Labor which were

55:31

unions which of course Blair betrayed the working class of Britain and the

55:37

union movement uh but let’s talk about the the the lobby the creation of the lobby and how it works um we just saw

55:45

prime minister Netanyahu address Congress I think it was the fourth time um uh the Congress was uh you know

55:54

rapturous I mean this is a guy who’s there’s a warrant for his arrest of course as a war criminal is ongoing

56:00

genocide in Gaza but Congress was always the key you know maybe the media was

56:06

very important but clearly the the the the within the US system uh the Zionist

56:12

Lobby realized they had to own Congress which they do to this day and uh if you

56:20

oppose even tepidly the Zionist project Jamal Bowman and others uh you are uh

56:28

targeted and often pushed out of the political system so let’s talk about the Machinery of the lobby from 54 onwards

56:35

and how it works yeah what is so interesting that actually they got the idea from a failed attempt back in 1900

56:43

when the Zionist Lobby began in Britain when uh the first lobbyist in Britain

56:48

decided to write to every candidate for the national elections in Britain and

56:54

telling them that they would support them or the rivals if they support the Zionist project in Palestine now in the

57:01

British electoral system it didn’t work that well because it’s a a constituencies kind of uh uh you know

57:08

parliamentary system but um this this kind of uh uh method which was not the

57:14

only method as you say but it was definitely the principal method was adopted by a c Canon uh a lobbyist uh

57:23

the early lobbyist for Zionism who worked a little bit with the Israeli delegation in the united nation in the

57:29

trade unions a guy from Cleveland originally from Canada who uh who really

57:34

developed this idea that you need to uh connect yourself to early career

57:42

politicians at the regional level at the national level even at the municipal level and follow their career from the

57:49

very beginning and offer help or threaten to withdraw help or give help

57:55

to your to their rivals in order to create a long life

58:00

commitment uh uh to to Israel we’re talking already about Israel not just

58:06

Zionism and um it’s incredible because I think what happened is that it worked or

58:12

the first fruits probably were already in the midterm elections in 1954 but

58:19

definitely uh uh through the campaigns that Nixon was right was trying to I’m

58:25

sorry that Kennedy was was using the lobby against Nixon in the early 60s and

58:31

so on sorry the more they see it’s working

58:37

the more they invest in this kind of system so it’s really it’s it sounds

58:42

simple but it’s not that easy to do this but but they they perfect the system as

58:49

they go along they perfect it uh uh they perfected it if one can use this term to

58:55

say say this and uh and then there is something that is added but I think that

59:01

only comes after 67 it’s not enough to have this

59:06

connection with the candidates and hopeful and you hope of course that some of them would be really influential

59:13

people in the end of the day they’re adding two more elements which are very effective taking a very active role in

59:21

uh presidential elections uh almost as I showing the book sometimes offering to do the more

59:29

dirty work uh for the candidates in order to smear the other

59:34

candidate uh and secondly they begin to understand that they need a permanent

59:41

presence on Capitol Hill and as one of them said to me you needed that to

59:48

remind our allies should they forget who we are it’s good for them you know to

59:56

pass over over the door he he gave it’s a incredible kind of image he said it

1:00:01

was important for them to go next to a door to see one of their colleagues

1:00:07

being reprimanded by someone from the lobby for not doing their job you know

1:00:12

it’s kind of a it’s a system that uh needs to be maintained at the level of

1:00:17

intimidation also uh uh definitely in the 60s and the 70s I think later on

1:00:23

it’s just by inertia they’re not worried they think that people know what they should say or should not say uh without

1:00:31

any need to exert direct pressure on them and you just have to deal with those who uh uh do not understand uh the

1:00:39

message and of course they’re highly funded you have these figures modern figures like Heim saah and others we’re

1:00:45

talking about massive amounts of money and the American system is a system of legalized bribery uh and uh if you defy

1:00:54

the lobby and we and let’s talk a little bit about Senator Fulbright the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

1:01:01

he decides to investigate apac’s financial affairs and you can lay out what happens absolutely he he um his

1:01:09

main worry there is not anemo anti Israel he’s worried of any foreign

1:01:15

country that interferes through lobbying in American policy because he’s very

1:01:20

much uh devoted to shaping American uh foreign policy according to what he

1:01:27

thinks are moral values and so on so he investigates professionally uh the lobby and uh uh

1:01:36

what he ex reveals more than anything else that the lobby is using money that

1:01:42

supposedly is being recruited for the less fortunate sections of the Israeli

1:01:48

Society the money goes to Israel but instead of being invested in the poorer

1:01:53

areas of Israel some of it not all of it some of it goes back to finance the lobby itself which is a total violation

1:02:01

of the American law and he publishes uh uh through Newsweek uh his findings and

1:02:08

then he becomes the AR enemy of of the lobby and uh the way to destroy someone

1:02:14

is of course to help your is is to go and help the Rival in the next elections

1:02:20

for he was a senator for a senate uh and and uh I bring a quote from his rival uh

1:02:29

in Arkansas who says well you know the Zionist filled my coffers with money I I

1:02:35

there’s I had no problem I had no issue with money he said in my elections and

1:02:41

he defeats full bright but it’s more than that they they kind of defame him

1:02:46

uh destroy his reputation uh and uh in many ways

1:02:51

destroy his political career for uh uh exposing the less legal aspects of their

1:03:00

activity and he’s one of many to come of course who would suffer a similar fate

1:03:07

for uh daring to to challenge the lobby before we go into where we are

1:03:13

today because it’s an important point you make in the book The Lobby used the arm sales to Jordan we’re talking about

1:03:18

the other Arab countries as a pretext for demanding more arms for Israel even today this quidd proquo continues to be

1:03:26

Plan B for the lobby you either stop arm sales to the Arab world or you concede

1:03:32

but demand compensation for Israel even after the Abraham Accords this was under Trump a set of peace agreements between

1:03:38

Israel the UAE bahin and Morocco were concluded in 2020 arms deals for Arab

1:03:44

countries contined to be balanced by more Aid to Israel making sure the arms

1:03:49

race never ended this is very interesting what the lobby found out

1:03:55

that the arms industry in the United States does have vested interest in the

1:04:01

Arab world uh and they are sacred to them namely their Arab clients are despite

1:04:08

their support for Israel they don’t want to lose their Arab clients and the more some of the Arab clients and I’m talking

1:04:14

about States not about persons right some of these clients become richer and richer because of uh oil and petrol and

1:04:21

fossil energy uh they can buy a lot of

1:04:27

weapons um and and therefore the lobby finds out that uh even if Israel demands

1:04:33

that there certain uh uh you know uh kind of pro very important weapons uh or

1:04:41

the most updated weapons would not be sold to uh Arab neighboring countries uh

1:04:48

uh the counter lobby of the arms industry is powerful enough to convince

1:04:53

presidents not to do that despite uh the demands of the lobby so what they do

1:04:59

they say okay if we can’t prevent sales to Jordan we can demand selling more

1:05:05

weapons and more Pro and more modern weapons you know kind of Cutting Edge

1:05:11

weapons to Israel so so the kind of and and I I call it the mentality of the

1:05:17

lobby you need to feel that you are winning I sometimes I

1:05:23

was very surprised sometimes these demands to increase the the weapon Supply or the

1:05:30

arm supplies to Israel are not even a request that comes from Israel it is

1:05:36

what I call the power for the sake of power if they cannot do that they might

1:05:42

in their own eyes they’re losing their grip on Congress they’re not powerful enough so sometimes they ask for more

1:05:49

weapons to Israel in order to show to themselves that they are still a very powerful Lobby because they did not

1:05:55

succeed in the first round to prevent the armed sales to Saudi Arabia or Jordan This is incredible because uh the

1:06:03

more the longivity of the of this uh Lobby is also its weakness because it

1:06:09

becomes an animal by itself it’s not only serving the interests of Israel it

1:06:14

is a powerful mechanism that uh is living for power enjoys power and

1:06:21

sometimes even forget what the power uh is needed for and wants to maintain the power as its

1:06:28

main priority I think you argue at the end of the book that and let’s put it in the

1:06:34

context of the current genocide where I think that the mask Israel’s attempt and

1:06:39

you write about these investing all sorts of money to change perception control academic studies intimidate the

1:06:47

media uh that mask is really dropped away with this live streamed genocide I don’t think it’s coming back uh but you

1:06:56

argue at the end of the book that in essence the lobby is counterproductive to Israeli interests itself uh so let’s

1:07:02

talk about since October 7th the role of the lobby what it’s

1:07:08

done and uh and I I think it’s kind of spinning its wheels in the mud I don’t

1:07:14

think that it’s working no it’s not it’s um it it kind of decided to frame as its

1:07:22

enemies young people contious sections of the American Civil Society minority

1:07:30

groups uh people who maybe a you know people mainstream America may consider

1:07:37

some of them naive but very few people would regard them as immoral or enemies

1:07:44

of the state and and and this is the main problem of the lobby now uh uh it’s

1:07:50

its enemies are are people that actually have a spirit that in the p American

1:07:56

used used to admire secondly uh some of them belong

1:08:01

actually to the American Elites uh it’s definitely the students and and the

1:08:08

whole discourse that is brought that the lobby trying to fight is a moral

1:08:13

discourse it’s not and and what and they yes you can bomb a moral discourse to a

1:08:19

certain extent we saw it in the pressure to uh you know on the presidents of

1:08:25

universities or with or Jewish alumni withdrawing money from certain universities so can you you can still

1:08:32

use money and force but you don’t really kill a movement of solidarity that has

1:08:39

the same the same impulses that the anti- Vietnam movement had that the

1:08:45

Civil Rights Movement had you cannot kill it with money and and therefore you’re right that’s stuck in the mud

1:08:52

because it’s not a question of convincing the the American Congress to give more money to to Israel or or sell

1:08:59

more arms yes they can still do that but they have no never had the right methods

1:09:06

and they will never have I think the right weapons if you want to fight

1:09:11

against Sy systemic changes in public opinion that are based on moral values

1:09:18

or knowing the reality or as you say rightly on The Daily images of of a

1:09:24

genocide uh there is a limit in the 21st century how much you can do that and and they don’t

1:09:31

have the kit of tools uh uh anymore to deal with it and therefore I don’t think

1:09:36

they would be succeeding uh unless other factors would not change public opinion

1:09:42

in the direction that I think it is changing and of course they still have the chunk of you call it the Trump maybe

1:09:49

the the Trump base in America uh they can still Unite with them there’s no

1:09:54

need to these guys uh but uh they understand that they’re losing a very

1:10:01

important section of the American The Divided American society well and they’ve lost the facade I mean they may

1:10:07

get support from Trump but they’ve lost that facade and just to butress that point you’re right the way APAC decided

1:10:14

who Israel’s enemies were often had very little to do with the actual policies which were frequently to Israel’s

1:10:21

Advantage they decided simply based on how obedient and admin Administration was to the lobby America’s endorsement

1:10:28

of the Oslo Accords was not a milestone on the road to peace for APAC but a testimony to its own failure to

1:10:35

influence American policy and you make that point throughout the book that it it no longer becomes weather it’s good

1:10:41

or bad for Israel but but they have to uh constantly assert their hegemony

1:10:48

within the American political system AB absolutely absolutely it’s uh and and I

1:10:53

think on the way they lost the some of their own people especially those who were more bip bipartisan in the view

1:11:01

people who were more democratic all came from the Democratic party into APAC you know even Martin

1:11:08

indic who just passed away uh this year uh eventually was more against the lobby

1:11:15

and we we remember him being a pillar of the lobby uh so they also lost he he

1:11:21

worked he worked for APAC didn’t he he worked for APAC and then he became quite a a strong critique of of APAC later on

1:11:27

so they are even losing some of their own you know Stars if you want of the of

1:11:33

the past because they’re going too far as a kind of a a mafia kind of

1:11:40

organization so let’s talk about just to close where you think we’re headed uh you and I just want to be

1:11:47

clear I mean you’ve been you and I have both been targeted but this is not a disinterested discussion we have both

1:11:53

been targeted by APAC uh I think you were denied where was it you were uh I I

1:12:00

was detained in uh in Detroit for two and a half hours yes right yeah I was detained in Newark uh

1:12:08

so for for about two and a half hours too even though I had a valid American passport um uh but let’s talk about

1:12:15

where you think we’re headed I mean uh I think you and this book and Mar shamar’s book are very very important for people

1:12:22

who want to understand how the the Machinery works s where are we going I think in terms of of the

1:12:29

lobbying in America in particular but also in Britain in a way I think the lobby is losing its efficiency and

1:12:37

efficacy although it still has the power of course to to change uh uh policies

1:12:43

and I think it’s major problem in America and I’m not an expert on American politics I think its major

1:12:50

problem in America is that although it Allied itself now totally

1:12:55

with the Republican Party the Republican Party itself has very strong elements of

1:13:02

isolationist isolationism uh that even led to a very

1:13:07

different kind of more careful policy towards military aid to the Ukraine not only uh to Israel I think the main

1:13:15

problem for APAC is that not only Israel is not considered any more a moral value

1:13:22

in a moral asset to a young American generation I think the most cynical

1:13:27

parts of the United States may not think about it anymore as a strategic uh asset

1:13:33

or economic asset given the way Israel is imploding from within its inability

1:13:40

to deal with uh the uh its own uh kind of uh right-wing uh the emergence of

1:13:49

strong right-wing elements that are usurping the government and and the state uh uh and therefore I think we’re

1:13:56

heading into a very volatile minute uh chapter in the

1:14:03

history of modern Israel and Palestine where Israel is going to be a very

1:14:09

Fierce cruel brutal force whose victims would be mainly

1:14:15

Palestinians but not only Palestinians and uh it would be very difficult for American

1:14:21

Administration to consider it as a reliable Ally or an easy Ally to deal

1:14:27

with although they will be still committed because of their own interest in the area but I think uh because of

1:14:35

that the lobby would find it far more difficult to find allies Beyond

1:14:41

Christian zionists uh you know the the most uh basic base of trump they’re losing the

1:14:49

Jewish Community they’re definitely losing the young Jewish community so in the long run

1:14:55

I do think that uh lobbying for Israel and Zionism 10 or 15 years from now the

1:15:02

way Israel is developing would be a far more difficult job to do even in an

1:15:09

America that may not go the progressive Democratic way even if it for a while

1:15:15

would go towards the direction of trump or the Republicans and so

1:15:20

on uh it’s it’s uh it’s not an asset anymore for the cynical Americans for

1:15:27

the more contentious Americans I think that we are witnessing the last chapter in the history of that

1:15:35

lobby but I’m an historian and when I say last chapter unfortunately it means few years not uh one year or two and how

1:15:43

do you see the genocide playing out I don’t have an answer to that question and you may not either how how do you

1:15:49

see it you know what is the Dan Mo of what are we 10 11 months now of yeah

1:15:55

well I’m afraid to say that the next 10 11 months are much of the same in the

1:16:00

sense that Israel has taken half of its Army out of the Gaza Strip and it’s now

1:16:07

allowing a kind of an attrition war between itself and what remains of the

1:16:13

military force of the Hamas uh I don’t I don’t think they have a strategy beyond

1:16:18

that because they are not willing to go along with the idea at least n is not

1:16:24

willing to go along with the idea of replacing the Hamas with another

1:16:29

Palestinian government or an Arab Palestinian government in anyway I don’t see the potential partners for this

1:16:36

anyway uh it’s it’s a it’s a a genocide on a

1:16:42

low less intensified one than we have seen but it’s incremental it

1:16:48

continues uh and I think in the end and I don’t know if it’s a year or two or

1:16:53

three years from now uh it would be something that important

1:16:59

Regional and international actors would not Toler not tolerate they’re still tolerating it but

1:17:07

will not tolerate now not tolerating the genocide could be a regional war with

1:17:14

Iran and Lebanon and maybe other factors not tolerating could be something we’re

1:17:19

hearing now from the labor government maybe you know from the back benches and so on and we should pay attention to

1:17:26

this of even people in the global states in the global North thinking that Israel

1:17:33

needs to be treated differently we definitely already heard it from the icj

1:17:38

and the IC I really believe that um Israel as it stands now doesn’t stand

1:17:46

a chance of surviving in the long run as as as a Jewish state but again I’m I’m

1:17:53

warning that this this before that would happen before there is a collapse or

1:17:58

disintegration there is a very dangerous period of that State trying to do all it

1:18:06

can without any inhibitions to maintain its power its

1:18:12

survival uh and I’m very worried for the short run uh including a continuation of

1:18:18

the genocide and not just in Gaza also in the West Bank but I really think that

1:18:23

uh if I were a young Palestinians I would hopefully believe that I’m young

1:18:31

enough hopefully to see something else in a more distant future and I really

1:18:37

believe in it not just you know it’s not a wishful thinking it’s not a word of an activist really someone who follows the

1:18:44

history of Israel in Zionism I’m 100% convinced we are at the

1:18:51

midst of the last chapter in this zus project in Palestine and last chapters

1:18:57

are violent they are decolonization kind of chapters I’m worried and at the same time I’m more

1:19:04

hopeful for the long distance great that was historian Elon

1:19:10

poppy on his book lobbying for Zionism on both sides of the Atlantic um it’s a

1:19:16

tremendous work I devour at whole uh I want to thank the production team Diego

1:19:23

Max Sophia uh Thomas and Shan you can find me at Chris hedges. substack

1:19:30

do.com thank you Chris [Music]

oooooo

Note: Oharra

In Palestina, erresilientzia (66):

Ikus, To stop the century-long genocide in Palestine, uproot the source of all violence: Zionism

(https://www.newarab.com/opinion/end-gaza-genocide-uproot-source-all-violence-zionism)

“Violence as a permanent and massive aspect of life can only be removed when its source is removed. In the case of Palestine, it is the ideology and praxis of the Israeli settler state, not the existential struggle of the colonised Palestinian people.”

Espaineraz, hemen:

Para detener el genocidio de Palestina, que dura ya un siglo, hay que erradicar la fuente de toda violencia: el sionismo

https://vocesdelmundoes.com/2024/08/05/para-detener-el-genocidio-de-palestina-que-dura-ya-un-siglo-hay-que-erradicar-la-fuente-de-toda-violencia-el-sionismo/

ooooo

MMT: Modern Monetary Theory