Sailak (Dr. Gabor Maté eta Ilan Pappé)

good afternoon good evening again welcome welcome back who are with

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us this morning or El or else welcome my name is Macio my name is z Beno we the

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directors of the film where olive trees weep and we delighted to have two very

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special guests with us today yeah um Dr Gabor M who doesn’t need

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introductions and Pap also doesn’t need introduction but we’ll do it

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we’re gonna read a brief bio a brief bio to introduce you Elan Pap is Israeli historian and

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political scientist he’s a professor at University of Exeter in the UK he

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directs the university European Center for Palestine studies and cirs the

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center for ethnopolitical studies as one of Israeli new historians he offers an

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unconventional view of Israel 1948 establishment his Works include the

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ethnic cleansing of Palestine the biggest prison on Earth 10

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meets about Israel and his new book was just released lobing for Zionism across

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the Atlantic thank you for your immense body of work and the and the

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angle you have been able to give us in all these years thank you so much thank you thank you it’s an honor to have you

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with us thank you thank you so it’s great to speak with you I know you’re in Prague

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um so it’s late for you late in evening for you there um you’ve been one of the

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seminal um no problem

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sorry um you’ve been one of the seminal teachers uh in my own understanding of

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the uh history um I knew the broad art lines for a long time now but um your

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work in those of a very few other historians in Israel has now completely um changed or

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should have changed the conversation around the history of Israel Palestine

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and you have used this phrase ahistorical uh that most people’s

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understanding of what’s happened over there is ahistorical not informed by history um what accounts for the

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worse than ignorance uh ignorance would actually be preferable to the

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um to the fixed and and and rigid view

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of Israel as victim Palestinians and agressors that dominates so much of the

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conversation and has for many many decades this ahistorical view this utter

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you know in which when October the 7th happens it just seems like another pgam

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against Jews in the absence of historical understanding give us the context for that

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ahistorical antihistorical perspective that

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has gripped so many people’s

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Consciousness yeah thank you gab it’s great to see you again and to be in conversation with you uh yes I I think

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it’s a very good an apt description uh for the way uh a certain narrative that

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is presented as if it’s an historical narrative is actually a historical and

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is meant to justify from the from the moment it was in

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conceived first to justify homeland of indigenous native people and then used

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to just ify uh the dispossession of the people uh in various stages of that history uh

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I think the power of that historical narrative has to do with the origins of

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the Zionist project and not many people realize that Zionism began as an

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Evangelical Christian uh uh project uh which was

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totally theological and out of any connection to reality but was very

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powerful as Mo on behind actions of first of all British

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imperialists uh in the end of the first world to allow the creation of a Jewish State instead of Palestine and then the

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American imperialist to to sustain the project that the British had built uh

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after the first world war so so the first impulse was to say that the

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creation of a Jewish state is actually part of a a Divine scheme that is meant

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to bring back the Messiah the resurrection of the dead and so on so from the very B beginning there was

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something totally almost mystical

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rather I think U then uh logical what really worked as well for

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historical uh period in your way in set the colonial movements like Zionism

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perceived the Homeland which they or the new Europe that they wanted to build of

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the Europe that didn’t want them and and even before they arrived at that Europe

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and definitely in the in in that new country and definitely after the early

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stages of arriving there they immediately erased uh the native indigenous people uh uh from the

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Homeland in their imagination before they started

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physically removing them uh I was I was

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always impressed by by the early drawings of Z painters who in whose in

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whose pictures uh you could see parts of Palestine that I was familiar with that I knew on them were in the landscape

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there were Villages and little towns and so on but they already don’t appear in the painting so they were already

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expunged from from the reality and and I think this kind of settler Colonial

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first of all perception that the land is empty and then making sure that it is

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empty because the land wasn’t uh empty is part of this this contributing to

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this totally uh um denial of the existence of another people there then

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also denying the expulsion itself and when after so many years the native

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people reappear as a resistance movement trying to deny their right to resist by

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terrorizing them namely to frame them as terrorists so the the it’s a long the

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longivity of this project is important to understand it’s like 120 years by which you have all the stages the stages

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that first perceives a land that has no people then practically turning the land

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to a land without people by force and then when it’s not it’s an

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incomplete expulsion of the people and the people fight back you’re using other

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means to continue this idea that there are not two legitimate people there but

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there’s only one people and the others are some people who come from somewhere

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else or are aliens uh or or in modern day language

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terrorists you know um two things come up for me uh one is that

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you’ve been called a revisionist his story um but

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actually it’s not like that like there were Jewish voices right from the beginning who saw what was going on and

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who called it as it was happening and even before it happened so that it’s not

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like you have to discover the past all over again there were people there all along who saw it and and warned against

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it and talked about it and that’s the

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absolutely uh in in my new book I I bring quotes from sorry the connection

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is a bit so I don’t know if if you’ve completed the the remark I’m sorry about

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that Elan do you have any apps open or other windows maybe you can close those

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so they don’t take no okay yeah it’s just I don’t have any

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apps I think but I can turn off my phone maybe it’s the one closes because I

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don’t have any other apps on the computer okay let me let me try turn off

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Z here while we’re waiting foran to come back um I just wonder if this connection

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is poor this is too important to conversation to have it yeah sabotaged

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by a poor connection might it by an idea to rebook it for a time when El line could be in a place where there is um a

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more secure connection if it doesn’t work out today I mean we’ll try for him to come back but all right I I turn off my phone

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it doesn’t say that I have a poor connection it says that you have poor connection okay I think connection is

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quite strong blame it on me go ahead I don’t

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care I’m not blaming anyone but I’m a very strong

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interet networks continue I think gab I think I I got your question let me

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just repeat uh uh that there were already Jewish voices very early on that

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they didn’t go along with this uh narrative and this depiction uh this

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ahistorical narrative as we call it am I right did I get that right yeah

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yeah yeah okay so um yes definitely I I

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I began to say that in my new book uh I bring um uh uh evidence for the early uh

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Jewish rejections of Zionism uh especially Britain when it

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appeared uh not only as a Christian project but as a as a Jewish project when Theodor Herzel the founder of the

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Zionist movement arrived twice or three times in London to try and convince the

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leadership of the Anglo Jewish Community to support Zionism and and they already

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then told him that there are two problems and it’s amazing how prophetic

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they were and I’m talking about 1900 to 900 19002 the first two years of the 20th

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century and they’re saying uh you know that two two evils would be created by

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this kind of an idea of reset settling the Jews in Palestine first of all it

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would be a disaster for the uh people of Palestine itself but it was also be a

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disaster for the Jews because it the claim is that the Jews are a distinct

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Nation or a race and and this is exactly what the anti-semitic

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discourse is the way the anti-semites frame the Jews as a different race and

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therefore they’re not English they’re not British they’re not even American and so on and and they warned that they

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would you’ll have this two double-edged kind of uh uh uh result results or

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Consequences later on in history they were so perceptive so uh focused in

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understanding even before they saw what we also later saw how it really unfolded

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on the ground this is even before we we fully understand uh the nature of the

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settler Colonial project of Zionism it just understanded you know

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philosophically and morally they understood that this is something that is going to effect not just the people

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of Palestine which was understandable but also would have a a a very negative

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impact uh on the Jewish people outside of Palestine and I must say they were

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right you know um it’s often struck me correct me if I’m wrong but it’s almost

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like the the Nazi definition of a Jew is the same as the zus definition of a Jew

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um and even to the point that it’s okay it’s a I’m in a hotel

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here um um even to the point of if it’s a one grandparent is Jewish then you’re

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Jewish kind of thing you know um it’s remarkable to what EXT understand the anti-mist antisemites definition of

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jewry corresponds to designer’s definition of what being a Jew um this

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whole idea of a a Jewish Nation um it strikes me as such nonsense

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because somebody could convert to Judaism tomorrow if it’s accepted by the

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rabbis and a week later they could be part of the Jewish Nation what kind of a Nation can you convert to by changing

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your religion absolutely uh you know in in

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the in the new book I’m sort of following the debates within Jewish communities outside the early space in

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which Jewish Zionism developed so they’re bringing it to North Africa to Jewish

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communities in North Africa they’re bringing it to the Jewish communities in the United States and um the the

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reaction of people beginning was to say we are not uh Jews who happen to find

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ourselves uh in America or in Morocco we are Americans and Moroccans who happen

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to be Jewish but we could have been Muslims or Christians it doesn’t matter and and the zanis message is no you are

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Jews who happen to be in America but this is or or Morocco or whatever but this is not your Homeland this is not

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and and and this is really something that is very alien at the beginning to many many Jews uh uh before the Zionist

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idea is catching or getting more support because of the Holocaust later on but I

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think that uh you’re absolutely right that that the uh the similarity between

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an anti-semitic Trope that says uh Jew Jews are A different race and Zionism

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that says Jews are A different race explains why until today we have these

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strong alliances between anti-sites and and and Zionism and from the very very early on it’s very logical both

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movements if you want or both ideologies don’t to see the Jews in Europe and they

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don’t even want to see the Jews in America they want to see the Jews in one place in Palestine for different reasons

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but but it’s it’s the same end result uh and and and that’s where the uniformity

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of of uh the perception of Judaism plays into the hands of the of

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the anti-semites and and Zionism that allegedly was an ideological movement

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that was meant to to be the Panacea this the you know the remedy for

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anti-Semitism I think contributes to anti-Semitism more than any other modern ideological movement uh in modern

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times you mentioned um quite apart from the obvious and

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tragic and

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horrific suffering that Zionism is inflicted on the Palestinians from a strictly Jewish

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point of view if we can if we can talk about a strict Jewish point of view um

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this whole idea of creating the state so Jews can feel safe I can’t think of a single place in the world where it’s

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less safe to be a Jew than in Israel and and Hana rant back in 1942 said that

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it’s Madness to alienate the local population and and to put your faith in

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foreign powers far away no she was right she was also wrong because if they

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hadn’t done that they couldn’t have created the state they could only create the state by relying on foreign powers

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but in the long term I just think Zionism I just wonder what your reaction

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to is I think Zionism will be seen by Jewish historians in a not too distant future as one of the greatest disasters

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in Jewish history for the Jewish

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people yeah I I I do agree with you I think that Zionism is an IDE ideology

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was not only to put it in simple terms bad news for the Palestinians which of course it was but I think it was bad

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news for the Jews as well and we are living to my mind in an era where we are

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witnessing the beginning of the end of this uh project of imposition by force

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and with the help of external powers of a European Jewish State

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on a country which is Arab which is part of the Muslim World which part of the

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Middle East against the will of the people living there uh uh yes it

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lasted for now more than 100 I go back uh it

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seems to not it doesn’t seem to work it doesn’t seem to work in terms of its economic

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viability uh it doesn’t seem to work as as part of its social identity there’s

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no social cohesion Judaism as nationalism has not jelled

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into a national identity on the contrary what we see uh is actually a a kind of a

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cold civil war between the secular Jews and the religious Jews because they don’t agree about what does it mean to

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be a member of a Jewish State what is a Jewish State and and for many years we thought that a common enemy would be the

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cement keeping these two camps together well we see that even uh after the big

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trauma that they went through the sth of October it did not create the unity uh

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so there’s an social implosion from within the Israeli Jewish society as I

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pointed economic vulnerability the Army doesn’t seem to to be able to defend uh

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as it always promised it would be and if you take the United States out of the

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equation as the financial diplomatic and polit iCal uh uh Shield

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of Israel uh which by the way is happening

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all over the Eastern Mediterranean Syria is a failed State nowadays Yemen is Libya is we Israel there was always a

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sense among Israelis that whatever

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trans Transformations and processes are are they don’t relate to them because they belong to Europe finding out

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actually that they part of the Eastern Mediterranean an area where the old idea

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of the nation state that was imposed by the colonialist powers after the first war is not working there was nation

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state idea of Europe that created Syria Jordan Libya Yemen all these countries

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are are disintegrating in front of our eyes or becoming very very uh uh

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unstable and and Israelis are surprised that they are part of that process now their the reason for their weakness is

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different from the disintegration of Syria but it’s it’s part of the same

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historical Legacy the bath of Declaration was part of the post first world war agreements that created the

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Arab nation states in eastern Mediterranean these particular states are failed States and are disintegrating

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in front of our eyes we live in that Epoch now and uh and I think what the

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Israelis refus to see that they are part of the crumbling down or the collapse of

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that particular colonialist structure that was build and um and I think like

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all these regimes they become very Fierce and brutal exactly because they

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cannot hold the things together we remember the brutality of aparte South Africa in its last days so so uh uh this

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is this I think uh proves that this whole project was not only morally to my

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mind in in invalid uh it was also not going to to last and and I I I think we

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really are beginning to see the the proof or the proofs or the manifestation

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on the ground for its collapse that leads me to to talk about

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your next book but before I do I just have a personal question for you um you’ve been uh your ethnic cleansing of

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Palestine came out in 20 2007 um you’ve been talking about this

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for a long time now you went through a personal transformation you were brought up as a typical Israeli served in the

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army inculcated with the same ideology at some point you became um allergic to

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it and you developed a sense of curiosity what actually really happened here through your contact with

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Palestinians and and your investigation um Gideon Levy who I know

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you know and who’s the Magnificent journalist for hearts um talked about his sense of

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failure um because he’s been trying to wake up the Israelis for decades now to

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the reality of what they’re doing and who they actually are um what was your

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subjective response or what has been your subjective response after and since October the 7th for me um it’s some of

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the darkest it’s the darkest days that I’ve lived through as an adult I can’t you know as an infant in Hungary under

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the Nazis those who were darker days I imagine personally but as an adult I can’t think of a darker time and not

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just because I’m Jewish but because we’re seeing something so horrible and so undeniable being denied and Justified

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so what has have you had a sense of futility or failure or what has been

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your subjective response personally but if I ask you more about the history just

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what’s it like for Elan Pap to witness all this stuff yeah

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yeah because I’ve been an activist for so many years I’m now 70 years old um I

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there’s some mechanism in in me that does not even the darkest hour to be an

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hour of total despair uh and uh probably my my uh

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inclination to be to look at things in a wider historical perspective rather than then in either the immediate past or the

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immediate future okay allows me I think to to see also the dawn after the dark

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night if you want or there’s another metaphor the the light at the end of the tunnel I don’t deny the tunnel and I

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don’t deny the dark night and it it depresses me and and and saddens me and

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and and like so many other people I’m aware every hour what goes on uh so it’s

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not out of not knowing the the the sheer inhumanity that is unfolding in front of

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our eyes not only in the Gaza stri now also in the West Bank but I really and this is an analysis that I feel is not

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just emotional but I think also even logical for me that uh it is the kind of

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reaction that uh would bring in it eventually a better future right I

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really believe in it now I I find it very difficult personally to engage in

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this conversation and as much as I can with Palestines in the Gaza Strip which now is very difficult which I used to do

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a lot before the 7th of October but I have a lot of connections and I go often

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to the West Bank uh I try to understand that I I should be careful because I’m

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talking to people that when I use abstractly saying you know the next two years would be awful but afterwards I I

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hope that something better is happening that the next two years being awful for them is really a horrible

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scenario and and I try to to to to be part of the activism in the world that

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tries first of all the emergency action you know to put a stop to the brutality

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but but uh unlike giddon I I know giddon for many many years and though we come

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from some similar German Jewish families with some background I I don’t

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fall into this uh trap I think it’s a trap of saying I failed in doing

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something and so on I don’t I don’t feel a failure uh and and I don’t think that

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I I’ve done everything I still can do and and and I I do believe very much

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because of my context with the young Palestinian society that this uh idea of mind that

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in medium term and in the long term there is something better awaiting us

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it’s not just wishful thinking it’s based on on on on analysis so so I I I

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my heart is broken by what I see and hear from my friends I lost I lost dear

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friends already in Gaza I lost students in Gaza um but I’m I’m I don’t think I I

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don’t want to allow myself to go into this St of Despair and and

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uh and I somehow feel responsibility not to generate it artificially but

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genuinely to share with people that they are part of an historical Pro by the way

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not only as observers gab I I keep telling people you know when I’m talking about the beginning of the end I say you

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know don’t be deterministic you’re sitting in your armchair and watching this process of collapse happening you

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can be part of it uh and you can be part of an attempt to make it more positive

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because collapse can be disaster a disastrous or it can really open the way

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for something better and it depends on people it’s not we’re not watching it on the screen we we are part of the of the

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plot uh so so that that’s my my kind of it really keeps me uh uh together in

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this kind of thing and I think I’m running like like a headless chicken now from one Capital to the other because

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people feel that contrary to some other activist that they meet I

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leave uh the audiences with with hope that’s what that’s the rewards I get

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from my my my talks and and I I always hope that this is not an imposter

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syndrome you know that I’m I’m just creating false hope but I don’t believe so I because I I really also base it on

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analysis and not just thinking or you know my my natural inclination to be an

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optimist y certainly um one aspect of what’s happened and it’s difficult to

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even use the word positive in the present context but there’s a positive that I’ve seen is

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that a lot more people have woken up to the reality of what’s going on over there I mean this um post October the

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7th um atrocity um has Walken a lot people up

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which then brings to my next book Because as more people wake up

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the the committed Zionist movement and and its various

29:43

manifestations have become far more vicious than even before in terms of intimidating shutting up

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silencing um punishing people that speak up against it and and your next book is

29:58

um the lobby for Zionism um across the Atlantic is that the full

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title yeah yeah it is the full title yeah yeah so just this morning or just yesterday with had an election in New

30:11

York which you probably following this is black Julene Bowman his name is um

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yes Apex spent $15 million in one writing just to defeat

30:24

this one guy who has spoken in criticism of Israel 15 million and and they won he

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was defeated so um I I think on the one

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hand there are more people waking up but on the other hand the the lobby response has been all the

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more um determined and and um vicious so

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can you talk about your sense of the lobby its current state it’s historical power and

30:58

what can even be done to to mitigate it yes I think the lobby uh first of all

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has a longivity that explains its

31:14

effect because it has been their states and it is so power it was so powerful

31:19

for so many years that the lobby doesn’t have to pressure any more politicians to be Pro Israelis they already know what

31:26

is expected of them them and what would happen to them if they don’t tow the line right I think however that um the

31:36

kind of brutality that they are facing now that they are now directing against

31:42

individuals or the against heads of universities in in the United

31:47

States uh or against uh sections of the Civil Society is a show of weakness and not

31:56

strength uh because because uh while you can use power intimidation and bribery

32:04

and threat and threats towards uh

32:09

politicians uh financial institutions uh the elite the you know

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the kind of higher echelons of societies yeah I don’t think uh and I think they

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know it when it comes to Civil Society special conscientious sections of Civil

32:26

Society they not bought easily neither are they intimidated easily so yes they

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can they will have these to my mind many successes because of the money that would be involved but this is like

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putting a finger on a dam that has already collapsed and it’s a flood I I

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think there is a a civil society flooding of pro Palestinian sentiment

32:54

including among the young Jewish generation in the United States and not only in the United States I think the

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lobby the way I understand the lobby from my book The Way It evolved the way

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it is structured it’s reson it’s its internal logic can only deal with

33:15

influencing uh policies from above it has always been unable to stop Trends in

33:22

the Civil Society look look at the American campuses 20 years ago a pro

33:29

Palestinian uh lecturer would find it very difficult to be invited to a

33:35

compass now a pro-israeli lecturer uh would find it

33:40

very difficult to to get an invitation to an American campus and this is under the watchful eyes if you want of one of

33:46

the biggest and strongest lobbies in the world APAC it’s it’s and and and this is

33:53

a trend that continues even you know people tend to underestimate the import importance of having three members uh in

34:02

in repres in the House of Representatives in in in the on Capital Hill who uh support in principle the

34:11

boycott on Israel yes there are only three out of many but but this is again this is a

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huge failure of APAC because an electorate has brought these people uh into uh into

34:27

the the shrine that APAC felt still feels that it totally controled so I

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think that’s one thing to to to to to to to look at whether they they are able to

34:40

you know kind of go from one Church to the other from one Community Center to the other from one campus to the other

34:47

and and really act with even with all the force that they have and really try

34:53

and tame this uh you know snowballing uh support for for for the Palestinians

35:00

especially after the sth of October secondly I think that they made

35:05

especially APAC but it’s true also about the pro-israeli lobby in Britain uh the the developments in

35:12

Israel uh caus them to align themselves both lobbies on both sides of the

35:17

Atlantic to align the themselves totally with the right-wing parties in the

35:23

perspect you know prospective countries in Britain and the United States

35:28

uh yes they are trying to be bipartisan in in in America but they really are not bipartisan anymore and that’s also a

35:36

sign of weakness so like everything else I don’t think that what I’m describing

35:42

here is a total collapse of of the lobby in the next two three years but I really

35:48

see cracks in this powerful structure that used to be the lobby in

35:54

America and I think that the methods that they used are very much or their

36:01

effectiveness of the method that they use depends on the nature of politics

36:07

not tomorrow or the next American election or Canadian elections but the nature of politics in the Next

36:15

Generation I might be wrong I hope I’m not but I think that part of the young

36:22

people who are now dwelling in encampments in North America I think

36:27

think some of them would be part of the political financial and cultural Elite of North America I think they might

36:34

bring something different to politics I don’t know what you think Gabor but I don’t remember such an age with so many

36:42

mediocre politicians everywhere you look I’m generalizing of course but but the

36:49

mediocracy of the politicians their their lack of interest in genuine problems their total self-centered

36:57

focus on their own careers or personalities I mean I could have detested members of the conservative

37:04

party in Britain or republican presidents but I could not underestimate their intelligence the the wish to lead

37:12

and so on I don’t see it I mean I’m looking in the next election in Britain

37:18

at the two candidates I’m looking in America at the two I’m looking at France

37:24

I’m asking myself this is the best Society can can offer as the leaders so

37:31

I do hope that there’s a transformation of the essence of politics to which the lobby cannot be uh

37:38

cannot adapt itself to my mind but as long as these kind of politics still uh

37:44

you know continue they’re still powerful enough but but I think it’s power only if the

37:51

Civil Society would still be unable to have its agenda as the political agenda

37:57

of the day because it is very different from the agenda of the politicians not only on Palestine on so many other

38:04

issues which human society yeah historically when you look

38:10

at uh Societies in Decline you also see the increasing mediocrity of the

38:15

leadership um true it’s a reflection of not just their own particular

38:21

limitations but what a system demands um from its leaders which is increasing

38:27

mediocrity um having said that uh your

38:33

your previous books have described the history as it actually occurred rather

38:39

than how it’s portrayed what was your intention in writing this recent book on uh and I know you’re bring out another

38:45

book on conversations on Palestine which Yours Truly happens to be in it um but

38:52

that’s a little bit down the line what was your intention in writing this book about the lobby what um yeah what’s the

38:59

message that you want to convey here yeah the message was actually that

39:05

there’s a conundrum here and the conundrum is that uh a state that until

39:11

recently was described as the only democracy in the Middle East yeah a Hightech Nation the one that possesses

39:19

the strongest army in the Middle East the fourth strongest army uh in the

39:24

world a a distinguished member of the oecd this very prestigious Club of the

39:30

best economies in the world yeah is investing millions in convincing

39:37

people that it is a legitimate State not that its policies are legitimate that it

39:43

is legitimate this is a conundrum if you’re so strong it’s so viable why do

39:48

you need to convince people that you have the right to

39:53

exist I I mean many countries have lobbies but they they not lobbying for the existence of the state or the

40:00

validity of the state and I think and that’s what L me I to to go back to the

40:06

origins because my sense was that the zist

40:12

themselves understand that there’s something invalid morally and therefore

40:18

also politically and therefore maybe economically may also later

40:24

strategically militarily in this project that’s from the the very beginning they understood the historical timing in

40:29

which they were there’s a very big difference between uh you know European settlers who come to America in the 16th

40:36

and 17th century it’s a different Epoch but if you try to repeat the American

40:43

Settler Colonial project the very end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th

40:50

century you are a very different period by which you cannot that easily get away

40:55

with this and then we have this horrible genocide of the Jews uh the Holocaust in

41:01

Europe that is manipulated cleverly by the Zionist movement and by the

41:08

anti-sites in Europe who don’t want to find a solution and and he gives it I

41:14

think a longer life than it should have had in the first place it gave it more more life but it didn’t give it

41:20

viability and I thought that what would be interesting for me is to show that

41:25

the lobby is trying in vain in the end of the day with a lot of power with a

41:32

very powerful allies it tries to sustain morally an

41:38

immoral project and we ask ourselves as people

41:44

is it enough to sustain something with material support if morally it is

41:51

suspect uh the hope of the Palestinians is not that someone would provide them

41:57

military aid or financial aid the the the only hope the Palestinians have is

42:03

that you and I go will think about them and their rights and aspiration would be adopted by people

42:10

who can make a change through their policies from above through sanctions and so on our our our good activism does

42:19

not have the power to change the the the reality and and the book I think shows

42:26

that they always uh the problem for the Palestinians was always not their moral

42:32

the foundation the moral Foundation of their claim the problem was the strong

42:37

Alliance that was against them for strategic reason cynical reason economic

42:44

reason theological Christian and islamophobic reasons I mean I I I try to

42:50

unpe the way that the lobby uh presents itself as as an advocacy for a moral

42:57

cause were actually it’s it’s a mafia it’s it’s a it’s a work of gangsters

43:04

that that uh are making sure that there are enough allies in different places to

43:10

sustain an immoral project and uh I wonder for how long this can can can can

43:18

continue but I thought I would have to go first to the foundation to explain

43:23

it’s it’s both its weaknesses but also it it strengths and more than anything

43:30

else and I’m not an expert or organizational uh kind of Sociology but

43:37

it’s very clear for me that there are many EX section um moments and I show it in the book where they they seek power

43:45

for the sake of power I mean there are moments in the United States you know when Israel doesn’t demand from Lobby to

43:52

do anything but they’re feeling that the house is not totally obedient and using

43:57

a lot of of of of power not even to to support a certain Israeli position but

44:03

to reassert their power in in on Capital Hill when they feel it is weakened by

44:09

someone like Obama or or or Carter presidents who are not entirely they’re

44:14

not entirely sure are abiding totally by

44:21

their guidance it struck me during Obama’s presidency that he gave more Aid

44:26

to his than any previous American president but they still hated him because it didn’t genu flect sincerely

44:33

enough at the Zionist altar um I have two questions come up for me um one is

44:39

you talk about mediocrity now and and also how the Zionist felt knew from the beginning that there was something

44:46

morally shaky about their project what what strikes me about that is that the early Zionist leaders like um benan and

44:54

jabotinsky and even mosha Dian and so on they would be very clear about stating

45:01

that we’re fighting against people who trying to protect their land from us and we’re trying to take it away from them

45:06

and we would in their situation they’d be the same that’s forgotten now and and

45:11

and and the rhetoric is the rhetoric is that we’re the victims but what strikes me is how clear they were and even open

45:19

and articulate they were about admitting about the moral shakiness of their claim that that’s gone now it’s just

45:28

were victims and they’re the perpetrators um even in that area the what you said

45:35

about mediocrity seems to apply I mean there seems to be a not that I I respect

45:40

what benguan did but there was a large REM mindedness about those leaders there seems to be about the leaders of

45:48

today absolutely and and I think that this is now sheer sheer power and

45:56

thuggery and and and nothing else I mean there was no you know there was some sophistication to the way

46:03

benuron himself wrote the history of Israel you know he was also the historians of early Israel and so on and

46:09

other leaders and and this is now just U we have a group of politicians in Israel

46:15

that U on the one hand you have the Netanyahu kind of politicians who are

46:21

involved in a war and genocide openly saying that more or less to survive

46:28

politically and that’s why they will continue unfortunately the war because netan really needs the war to survive in

46:35

his own eyes I’m not not saying that it will help him but this is how we understand that or you have the new

46:41

Messianic Zionist who were elected in November 2022 uh who believe that uh the were

46:48

very much like Christian Zionist is leading to this big bang that uh would

46:54

enable the Jews to build the Third Temple and reignite the the kingdoms of

47:01

the past and in between you have the more reasonable politicians uh who are mediocre enough

47:10

not to be able to think out of the boxs and to suggest some different moral

47:16

values to the Israelis in order to fight against opportunism and cynicism of

47:22

netan on the one hand and the messianism and fanaticism of smotrich and benir on

47:28

the other they because they they such a low caliber they they don’t know and and I

47:35

think they’re good people by the way because I know some of them but but they have really are not rising to the moment

47:43

uh because the society has not produced leaders It produced politicians which is

47:48

not the same thing uh and uh and they have enough examples around them that do

47:54

not encourage them to you know to to take any radical educating role towards

48:01

their own Society in order to really understand the implication what happened on the 7th of October the limits of

48:08

power the limits of Oppression and occupation instead they they themselves

48:14

also repeat this narrative it all came from Iran and it’s another chapter of

48:20

anti-Semitism uh you know you in the film you you allude to this about how anti-Semitism is weaponized in order

48:28

to to to suppress freedom of speech on Palestine in Israel it’s now weaponized

48:34

in order to try and blind Israeli Society from the fact that people lived

48:39

in a ghetto for 17 years in Gaza and however violent they were justifiably or

48:45

not justifiably it is the 17 years of so many young Palestinians living on in

48:52

this ghetto that was four-time bombardment bombarded from the air the land in the sea that is not a bad enough

48:59

not not a bad explanation for what happens on the 7th of October you know by itself by itself not to mention 56

49:06

years of occupation and what happened for they don’t even begin to allow the

49:13

Israelis to have this kind of debate so it has to be this again our historical

49:18

narrative you know this is continuation of anti-Semitism what has anti-Semitism to do with a young man in in uh in Gaza

49:27

who lost all his family members and and and lived in a cage for 17 years and and

49:33

behaved the way he behaved once the cage was open right I mean what this has to

49:38

do with the history of anti-Semitism in Europe what does it even has to do with Iran reading correctly or incorrectly

49:46

the Iranian Regional strategy nothing as if the the most logical explanation for

49:52

the violence that occurred on the 7th of October is totally immediately framed in Israel if you give

49:59

this explanation you’re immediately branded as a self-hating Jew or helping

50:04

the anti-sites and so on this is such a low level of discussion I mean yeah as

50:09

you say I mean I never agreed with the Zionist but sometimes it was difficult to to argue with them there was some

50:16

profound level of analysis but we don’t have it we don’t have it anymore let me ask you a couple

50:23

of difficult questions about October the 7th um I mean what’s totally missing from the

50:30

Western discourse is any actual um rational discussion of what Hamas aims

50:36

might have been because they had some legitimate aims on October 7th I’m not talking about the practice or or the

50:44

perpetration I’m talking about their political aims of breaking out of this

50:50

ignorance and being ignored uh their political aims of capturing Israeli

50:55

soldiers in exchange for prisoners those are legitimate of a of a resistance movement

51:03

but my own reaction on October the 7th was hearing about the deaths of all these civilians and the capturing of

51:11

children as you know hostages is that um this was a criminal act um and

51:22

it was also criminally stupid because I’m not making a Cas I’m talking about my own subjective reaction because I

51:29

knew I knew what Israel was going to do so the horror of it is beyond anything I

51:35

could have imagined but I had no doubt whatsoever that the Israeli response is going to be brutal and murderous and

51:42

absolutely merciless and and and and and and ruthless and the hamash leader recently

51:49

talked about necessary sacrifices like the civilian death necessary sacrifices

51:55

for God’s sake and I’ve heard you talk about this as well and I know you’re very reluctant to

52:01

criticize the Palestinian resistance cuz the way they’re slandered in the west

52:08

but they they should have known shouldn’t they have what’s going to happen I don’t know what options they I

52:16

I know what I I don’t know what options they had but for God’s sakes they should have known what Hellfire they’re calling

52:23

upon on their own people what do you say to that yeah I think that uh we don’t know

52:30

enough whether the way the sth of October the first eight hours of the S

52:37

of October unfolded yeah were really reflecting the hamas’s uh plans because

52:45

we know few things which are important one is that the Israeli Army for some reason decided not to interfere in the

52:51

first eight hours and and I’m not saying it I mean there is a demand by Israeli

52:56

generals and ex-generals and politicians to have an inquiry commission why did

53:02

the Army stand by why the Hamas was occupying bases in settlement so I don’t

53:09

think that they thought that they would be able to to be so successful both in

53:15

terms of the number of people they abducted both in the way that they could you know uh open this $1

53:23

billion fence and a lot of people who were not part of the military structure

53:29

of Hamas especially for hanun you know kind of flowed into there

53:35

was an influx of people much much less disciplined and much less part of the no

53:41

the special forces of the of the Hamas so I’m not sure that they thought that

53:47

they would create such a traumatic event for the Israelis themselves so I uh so

53:54

maybe I’m we have have to interview them one if whoever can be if this is

53:59

something that they really understood uh I I really think that you have to go

54:06

back to the biography of sinir a prisoner that is released under an

54:12

prisoners exchange promising to those who he he left behind that he will

54:18

release them as well I think the main object objective by the way that was not fulfilled was to reach the big prison

54:26

not far from Gaza to release the prisoners really uh and based on that

54:31

prisoner exchange and so on I think they hoped but I’m I’m guessing here of course we we we cannot talk to them that

54:39

they thought that they were creating a certain moment where the marginalization

54:45

of Palestinian world world affairs in in the regional agenda might be replaced by

54:52

a new focus on on Palestine and I don’t

54:57

think that they were either because they couldn’t imagine it or maybe they should

55:03

have and didn’t I don’t buy that they knew what was going to happen and they

55:09

said doesn’t M doesn’t matter as a kind of you know Messianic movement that says

55:14

this is great the more Palestinians are being dead and the whole Gaza destroyed

55:20

is good for us I don’t really think so I I I really think that they uh uh we have

55:27

to remember the last two years before the 7th of October they tried a nonviolent action on 2018 the the mar of

55:35

return right in and then Israel chose this government that assaulted the AL

55:43

aamos in Jerusalem arrested more people than ever before allowed the settlers to

55:49

be far more ruthless and brutal than ever before killing more young

55:55

Palestinians uh uh and there was I mean there was a

56:00

pressure to react because the Palestinian Authority did not react to a new phase in Israeli brutality towards

56:08

the Palestinians before the sth of October yeah uh so they might have

56:13

miscalculated that’s that’s to that’s totally possible but to describe them as

56:19

total lunatics who didn’t mind knowing exactly that this is what Israel would

56:24

do I find it hard to to to accept I know

56:29

some I knew some of them in the past and and I mean more the political side of

56:34

course uh I don’t know them practically but you know I read them and and listened and so on they didn’t strike me

56:42

like like people who who take that easily such a scenario um so yes I I think that they

56:50

might have they succeeded more than they thought they would succeed and that that

56:56

over say I think also uh accounts for the brutality that none of us would have

57:04

expected would have reached that kind of level on the Israeli side at least I I

57:09

think it’ll take some historians in the future to really um um excavate what

57:16

really happened in October the 7th and what the plan were and what actually literally happened because so far we’re

57:24

only giving a propagandistic view of one side I know it’s 11 o’cl for you I’m

57:30

going to ask one final question and we’ll let you go your new book the new book and the lobby um it doesn’t exist

57:38

in a vacuum and uh when people um when I talk with people I always say to them

57:44

look this we can think of three reasons why America supports Israel one is

57:49

America loves the Jews well we can let that one go you know um Empires don’t

57:56

love anybody uh number one number two the Jews control the United States well

58:02

that’s an anti-semitic Trope and uh the lobby makes it looks like it but it’s

58:07

not actually true either and the third one is that Israel at the present suits

58:13

the interests of the American Empire so that which is a dangerous situation because a Empires don’t last forever the

58:20

American Empire is already waning number one number two Empire changed their minds about who’s their fence and who

58:27

isn’t um so I just want you to comment as the final segment of this conation on

58:33

the context in which that lob is able to be successful it’s not simply due to its own power is it it’s it’s because it it

58:40

does line up with an imperial project as as you were saying

58:45

earlier yeah definitely and that Imperial project itself is uh is not as

58:52

strong and as solid as it was in the past and therefore this very strong

58:58

connection to the Imperial project if if we are right in analyzing a certain

59:03

decline in the hegemonic power of the United States due to the rise of other powers or due to the rise of regional

59:11

powers in The Case of the Middle East it means that uh this will also affect uh

59:16

uh the lobby um I I do think that um the

59:22

most important uh development uh that

59:28

undermines the in the future is the change in the way the young Jewish

59:33

generation is viewing both American imperialism and its connection to Israel

59:40

yeah uh in the past you could say yes there is a Young Generation that is not

59:46

interested in Israel because they feel that they are American Jews or Canadian Jews uh but but that’s it I mean it’s

59:53

not that they’re replacing one ideology with the other just saying uh I’m I’m I’m happy where I am I know who I am but

1:00:01

I think what is really worrying for the lobby is that this has now translated

1:00:07

this they’re not just jettisoning their connection to Zionism they are replacing it with a certain

1:00:13

activism and this activism is for Palestine because Palestine symbolizes

1:00:20

other injustices that they want to be active on whether it’s the the

1:00:26

africanamerican situation the poverty situation ecological environmental

1:00:33

challenges the Native Americans the the indigenous the first nations in in Canada and so on I think that uh the

1:00:42

fact that being a moral person for a certain Young Generation of Jews but

1:00:48

also of course non-jews being a moral person is now

1:00:53

equated with standing against what APAC is standing for and what American

1:01:00

imperialism is standing for and if you look at my book I mean there was a period in the 60s that people who you

1:01:07

know uh protested against Vietnam were very pro-israeli they saw no no

1:01:13

contradiction between being arrested even on the campus against

1:01:19

the Vietnam and in the evening they would go APAC convention to support

1:01:25

Israel this is not working anymore this is not working anymore and the new

1:01:31

generation of Arab Americans that far more than the first generation uh and the Muslim Community in America and the

1:01:39

new intersectional connections between various minority groups that maybe in

1:01:45

the past were not working so much in uh in conjunction I think is now in

1:01:51

tund now beginning I I know it sounds a bit to to my because there’s also Trends

1:01:57

in the other direction I’m not I’m not eluding myself it’s not I’m not trying to

1:02:03

mislead anyone with this but I do think that um this is uh a big question so

1:02:10

what Israel would be the end of the Bon for security

1:02:17

industry military industry American imperialists still believe that America should be an empire

1:02:23

in Southeast Asia or Africa that sounds to me very you know very not very solid

1:02:29

foundations on which to keep the alliance and if the alliance is not solid I wonder whether the project

1:02:36

itself has long to live well Elan thanks for your um

1:02:41

informed and um astute answers to these questions and for your work in general

1:02:47

it’s uh you know sometimes it feels like you’re the uh was it the pillar of fire

1:02:53

that led the Jews you know the in the desert you know and your work certainly uh acts

1:02:59

like that Pillar of Fire and truth so thank you for that and um I bid you good evening I know it’s late in Prague so I

1:03:06

hope you have a good night ahead of you thank you I I will thank you very much and thank you for having me on this show

1:03:13

and great film by the way I managed to watch it and great work and the very

1:03:20

many people would to watch it and learn from it and and thank you also Gab for

1:03:26

the great work that we just got a glimpse in the film of what you’re doing but I’m sure it also will be important

1:03:32

for the Palestinians to know that are they are acknowledged and are listened to anybody who visits a refugee camp in

1:03:39

the West B as you did knows that being listen to is not a mere uh feature of

1:03:45

Life there because most of the time they are confined in the mega prison uh even

1:03:51

if they don’t live in a proper prison and so I think it’s it’s we all should continue also to do these things are

1:03:57

important thank you thank you so much thank you byebye it was good to

1:04:05

meet you all thank you (…)