Palestina, erresilientzia (29)

Guanche Warrior@guanchewarrior

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Megatron@Megatron_ron

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1805005156594929813

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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NewRulesGeopolitics@NewRulesGeo·

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 @tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Beyond the Rhetoric: Standing in Integrity: Norman Finkelstein and Daniel Maté

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVZCuyoP5oc

Beyond the Rhetoric: Standing in

Integrity With Norman Finkelstein and Daniel Maté

Political scientist Norman Finkelstein and author Daniel Maté exposes the lies and propaganda which obscure the reality in occupied Palestine. They will challenge the false narratives used to justify Israel’s brutal oppression of the Palestinian people, from the distortion of history to the whitewashing of war crimes in Gaza. They show how the dehumanization of Palestinians, the censorship of critics, and the perversion of antisemitism claims to silence dissent all depend on a scaffolding of deception that must be torn down. It’s time for intellectual honesty and unflinching integrity in the fight for justice in Palestine.

‘Where Olive Trees Weep’ is a poignant, heartbreaking film about the struggles and resilience of Palestinian people under Israeli occupation. It explores themes of loss, trauma, and the quest for justice. We follow, among others, Palestinian journalist and therapist Ashira Darwish, grassroots activist Ahed Tamimi, and Israeli journalist Amira Hass. It features Dr. Gabor Maté as he offers trauma-healing work to Palestinian women tortured in Israeli prisons.

he program expands on the themes explored in the film and provides a larger historical and social context.

Transkripzioa:

0:02

good morning good afternoon good evening welcome back my name is Macio hello

0:07

everyone my name is Zia benatu we are the directors of the film where olive

0:13

trees weep and this is day 19 of Us coming together and learning and

0:20

listening and getting uh inspired to take stance and action in support of our

0:28

um Palestinians brothers and sisters so welcome back yes and we are speaking to

0:34

you from the settler in the the territory of the castal milwa and South

0:41

Pole indigenous indigenous people known as Northern Califoria sebast so we want

0:48

to introduce you today to first to Daniel Daniel mate which is gonna run

0:55

this two very special gu very special he Daniel thank you so much thank you

1:03

for offering us offering to facilitate this conversation yeah so let me

1:09

introduce Daniel Daniel is an awardwinning composer Lyricist and playright for musical theater outside of

1:17

the art Daniel runs the world only mental chiropractic service take a walk

1:23

with Daniel he co-author the New York time best selling book The Myth of normal trauma illness and healing in a

1:30

toxic culture with his father Dr Gabor mate the two mates next book is entitled

1:36

hello again a fresh start for parents and their adult children but most and

1:43

foremost Daniel Daniel is a co-host of the world most moral podcast bad

1:52

asbar how appropriate I love the name yeah that’s my latest my latest Venture

1:59

and it I joined up with Matt leeb who’s a comedian in Los Angeles who are who

2:04

started the show and I was a guest and we hit it off so much that I ended up becoming a mostly full-time co-host and

2:12

yeah every week we we just try to digest and spit out uh whatever is coming at us

2:20

from the Israeli PR machine and you know it’s in a sense it’s it’s

2:25

weird to be making comedy in a time like this but at the same time the feedback we get from all kinds of people

2:31

including people in Palestine um and even some people in Israel is that it’s cathartic and

2:39

homeopathic yeah to laugh so yeah thank you it’s really my pleasure uh to be

2:46

here and like I said to you guys before we went on air you know you thanked me for being willing to do this I said

2:52

interviewing Norman finlin I do that for a bad cause never mind for a cause as good as this one so here we are

3:00

yeah thank you so I guess that it leaves it to me

3:06

to it leaves it to me to introduce our next guest I don’t have a bio in front of me so I’ll just do this from the

3:12

heart and from uh from memory from what I know uh Norman is a hero Norman is a

3:22

um a professor Franklin Norman uh is um

3:27

a renegade and a um just a

3:33

stalwart um defender of facts and truth and the title of this conversation was

3:42

uh it was we didn’t choose it but someone else uh I think the folks at s named it beyond the rhetoric standing in

3:49

integrity and I can’t think of anyone who stood more in Integrity for longer on this topic particularly

3:57

when everything material would in incentivize against that and that’s I think the definition of integrity um

4:04

than Norman finlin so Norman pleasure to be coming at this with you from

4:10

different parts of Brooklyn how are you today and thanks for doing this I’m fine thank you for having me

4:16

yeah so why don’t we start with the title that was given to us just as a

4:22

jumping off point beyond the rhetoric standing in integrity

4:29

what does that title evoke for you when it comes to the topic of Israel

4:37

Palestine uh in the moment we’re in what do those words suggest to you or or

4:43

bring up for you he first of all what’s most needed

4:49

now is clear analysis of what’s going on and where things are headed and what’s

4:55

least needed right now not that it’s ever needed but certainly least needed

5:01

right now is prophetic statements uh and rhetoric U there’s

5:08

uh things are moving things are moving simultaneously at a glacial pace and at

5:16

lightning speed both facts are true uh the kinds of change one might have hope

5:24

for given the various Arenas of resistance to what Israel is doing uh be

5:31

it the houthis and the Hezbollah on one front and one level or the

5:41

icj another International court of justice and the international criminal court another level and another

5:49

Arena the UN organizations the whole un system really whole un system is quite a

5:56

fascinating thing to observe the entire un system and that means all of its

6:02

organizations of which there are too many to count the UN High Commissioner

6:08

on human rights the human un under secretary for humanitarian and uh

6:14

emergency Affairs UNICEF save the children World Health Organization UNAM

6:22

you know it’s a vast a v apparatus and this whole apparatus is

6:30

united in support of uh the people of Gaza and against the Israeli genocides

6:37

that’s another whole area and then there is the Grassroots resistance which was

6:42

most Salient uh in the spring with the student uprisings the student

6:50

revolts uh given all of that one would wish the impact were greater than it has

6:57

been so think are moving at a glacial Pace though I don’t believe it’s correct

7:03

to say that it hasn’t accomplished anything I believe it’s correct to say

7:08

it’s accomplished a lot but not it hasn’t yet crossed the threshold where

7:15

one can breathe a s of relief so at one level things are moving at a very at a

7:21

glacial Pace but at another level every day there are new developments it’s very

7:28

hard to keep up even just with the written documentary record it’s impossible at this point

7:35

every day there’s a new 100 200 300 page

7:41

single space report that’s coming out and at some point you just throw up your

7:47

hands in Despair and say well this is going to be superseded in about one week

7:52

so there’s no point and even reading it na’vi p uh released the really two volume

8:01

report on the situation in Gaza and in Israel in October 7th and

8:10

the first report on Israel on uh October 7th I think it’s about 70 Pages

8:17

microscopic font single spaced and then the one on Gaza

8:23

is30 Pages microscopics F single spaced

8:28

and then about a third of the topics she addresses in the report she says I will

8:35

return to it when I give my report to the general assembly so that means there another

8:42

report I think it’s scheduled to be released in October uh and that’s going to render

8:50

obsolete so I usually read everything twice or three times um this time I left

8:57

it at once because I said I was going to write about it because I had a lot of disappointment with that report or parts

9:05

of the report um but then I said you know in two months there’s going to be

9:11

something twice this size coming out yeah you have too much other stuff to do

9:17

so every day there are new developments right now the Talk of the Town uh as the

9:24

New Yorker would put it it is an impending or possibly impending war with

9:29

Hezbollah in the north um northern Israel and Southern Lebanon so things move at a very rapid

9:37

pace and one needs Clarity I I believe and what’s

9:43

least useful at this point is uh not that it’s ever useful but least useful

9:49

at this point is vacuous retoric yeah and what about the Integrity piece I want to come back to rhetoric with my

9:55

next question but you’ve spoken about there being two

10:01

orientations towards life basically one is the materialist concerns at the

10:08

Forefront let me get what I can get let me make my life as comfortable as I can make it let me look out for

10:15

myself um which is an ordinary and you know in and of itself understandable

10:20

human orientation and then there’s something to do with putting principles ahead and many people look to you as a

10:27

paragon um of that second choice in this

10:33

moment for you what does integrity mean when it comes integrity means one thing to me at

10:41

this moment I receive a large amount of email expressing gratitude

10:48

for uh what I’ve done and normally that

10:54

would massage the ego and for me it just means strength the resolve I’ve not done

11:00

enough I’ve got to do more and do more and do more I’ve been working pretty hard I’m working on esoteric topics

11:08

because I think that they can possibly have an impact and it’s the kind of work

11:14

that nobody likes to do and I am willing to do and to some extent I like to do it

11:21

it’s a kind of uh my uh my um Leisure is

11:28

the vot to watching British Murder Mysteries and I like a good detective

11:34

story and so a lot of what I do is trying to figure out how people in

11:41

positions of power manage to fabricate these

11:46

falsehoods which are then conveyed with a kind of flippancy as if they’re not

11:54

hiding anything but in fact they’re hiding everything and so it means going

11:59

through a pile of dull legal material and dissecting it so there’s

12:08

this character Joan dunu who was the former president of the international court of

12:15

justice and as you know on January 26th 2024 the

12:23

icj uh issued a statement in which it as everybody understood it it said that

12:29

Israel was plausibly committing genocide there didn’t seem to be any dispute on

12:35

that point no Israel sure acted as if that’s what they said I mean they tried to that they didn’t but they they sure

12:42

but they reacted as if they had just been plausibly genocide that’s absolutely correct yeah and then in

12:49

April 26 Joan dunu was no longer the president of the court for term of

12:54

office came to the end she went on this British progr BBC program called heart

13:00

talk and she said we never said Israel was plausibly committing

13:06

genocide I’m thinking wait wait wait I read I read that uh statement many

13:14

times for those who are interested part paragraph 54 is very clear in what you

13:21

said what are you’re talking about and of course that caused serious disruptions in the so-called narrative a

13:29

word I completely detests uh because now you can claim the

13:36

authority of the for ex-president of the Court who actually presided over the

13:41

statement by the court What’s called the order saying that’s not what Israel

13:47

concluded and I sat down I read through the whole record which is pretty extensive now because the icj met on the

13:56

same case in February then met in the same case in March March 28th met in the

14:02

same case May 24th there was the public sittings and was and there were the

14:10

written submissions and I read through the whole record I wrote a 22 page single spaced

14:16

analysis and there’s only one conclusion the conclusion is that uh John danu uttered a shameful

14:25

and Shameless lie and right now now that I’ve completed that and by the persons in my

14:33

in my Reckoning who count uh they conveyed that my case I argued was

14:43

persuasive I’m now on to this creature named Julia

14:49

SE sendi the vice ug is that the Ugandan

14:55

yes yes this creature from Uganda um

15:00

who she’s what you might call a bad stenographer for

15:05

Israel she’s so over the toop in her

15:11

apologetics that it’s become even a bit of an embarrassment such that in the first

15:20

meeting of the Court which was March 26 there were there was the majority

15:26

opinion there were separate opinions and

15:32

judge Barack from Israel he wrote a separate

15:37

opinion and then there was only one descent The Descent was Julia

15:44

seui which to say which it which we can mix a metaphor she was more Pious than

15:51

the pope uh Barack did not issue a descent only her from the majority now of course

15:59

course you’re entitled to issue a def a descent everybody’s entitled to that the question is how do you argue it and she

16:07

didn’t argue she didn’t argue at all she wrote seven pages single spaced which is

16:12

large for descent but she just repeated everything Israel said and never

16:17

explained why she didn’t agree with what the majority concluded and why she didn’t agree with that fance of un

16:25

agencies and respected NOS I left out I don’t know if I mentioned there’s who

16:32

the World Health Organization there saved the children there is Oxfam they’re all United on this yeah so why

16:40

Norm Norm lest we get lost Le lest we get lost in the microscopic here I you

16:46

know clearly what you’re describing there is not Integrity you know that that that this and you and you wrote an

16:52

entire book uh called I accuse about Fatu Ben suda um previously of was it

16:59

the icj or the ICC I she was the chief prosecutor of the ICC yeah exactly and

17:05

and I didn’t notice until you held up a copy of that book The the very clever uh

17:11

just the visual of I accuse has I CC right there in the T it was just very

17:17

very clever branding I have to say Professor um but so you so you know Integrity for you means not flinching

17:25

and also not being satisfied or too gratified by the praise and gratitude

17:30

you get but rather pushing ahead and pushing forward so I if if you don’t mind I’d like to take the conversation a

17:37

slightly different direction be especially because the launching pad for this conversation is this film that was

17:44

filmed in 2022 and it was filmed largely in the West Bank and I know your your your

17:52

focus has been on Gaza for a long time but you also have a lot to say about the occupation more generally so

18:01

um maybe you could tell us a little bit about and if

18:08

we could summar if we could sort of summarize it um concisely that’ be

18:13

great the lifespan of this occupation what has what was predictable

18:21

from the start and where have things gone in New Or unpredictable directions

18:26

what has stayed the same what has changed what has the life what what is the if you had to tell the

18:31

story of this occupation from its Inception to now in a in in a rather

18:39

simplistic way or a rather simplified way because I

18:44

think I sometimes because I grew up uh in a

18:52

left-wing Zionist Youth Organization despite the fact that I had a anti-zionist father it a very strange uh

18:58

Choice he made to send us to zus summer camp although I’m not mad at it I learned a lot I tend to have a certain

19:05

kind of nostalgia for like the good old days when things were simpler or something like that or when there was a peace movement in Israel or so on and so

19:13

forth and in those cases I can flatten or um elide the ways in which everything

19:20

has always been as brutal as it is now and then there are ways in which the brutality does seem to have ramped up or

19:27

gotten more somehow purified um and and and Laser focused I

19:33

wonder what you have to say about just the trajectory of of the occupation and let’s let’s start for the purposes of

19:39

this part of the conversation in 1967 there are conversations also to have about what started in

19:48

48 my only view is that if you look at the conquest of the American West in the

19:55

United States the source of justification that would put forth for it the kinds of

20:03

tactics that were used in the course of the

20:08

uh conquest of the West um I don’t think I’m fundamental

20:15

levels at a fundamental level it differs very much in practice or in its

20:21

unfolding many moon ago several decades ago I sat down and I read through the

20:30

history as it existed back then wasn’t extensive of the Cherokee

20:35

Indians and compared it to the situation in the occupied Palestinian territories

20:42

and this Relentless Jugger not like conquest of land the breaking of

20:49

treaties that were signed this actually a quite good book accessible to a

20:55

general reader it wasn’t written by an AC ademic was called A Century of

21:01

Dishonor by a woman named Helen Hunt Jackson in which she describes this as I

21:09

said Relentless Juggernaut likee process of uh moving West signing treaties

21:16

making promises breaking the promises and continuing on the path and I don’t

21:23

think it differs fundamentally from what happened in the case of

21:30

the uh Israel Palestine conflict the one

21:36

difference I don’t think it’s a major difference but it is a difference U

21:41

because of what happened to the Jews during World War too uh there was a kind of moral

21:50

persuasiveness to the case uh which is not didn’t have that magnitude

21:59

of moral persuasiveness in the case of the US conquest or the euroamerican

22:05

conquest of the American West basically the

22:10

argument was if I can just let me reach for a b

22:17

here and let’s see if the index is adequate

22:23

enough uh let’s see that it has yes it is

22:51

I was muted while you’re looking for it Norman I’m just going to read a couple of quotes from the film that jumped out at me um

23:02

so someone I forget who but a Palestinian oh yeah Palestinian young

23:07

man who was uh you know had who had an Israeli bullet lodged in his spine and was paralyzed was speaking about the injury

23:14

itself but it seemed to me he was speaking about the mor the moral and

23:21

spiritual injury also of permanent occupation he says the pain is severe

23:27

and you’re in between life and death everyone will die and that’s the end but what matters to us is the purpose for

23:34

our death or the way in which we die and it reminded me very much of when you’ve

23:40

spoken about the implicit obligation placed on

23:46

Palestinians to languish and die because in fact their violent resistance is

23:53

castigated as barbaric and anti-semitic and they’re nonviolent

23:59

resistance is just met with extreme violence so that hovering between life

24:04

and death thing and the pain of not even being able to die in your in in your own way and on

24:10

your own terms never mind live on those terms um really jumped out at

24:17

me and well I can’t find it right now it’s not so important people can find it on

24:24

their own uh the justification of uh for the conquest of the west by uh

24:32

Theodore Roosevelt who was a uh who was uh a grand devotee of

24:40

the uh Western the West the um what were they called back then the

24:49

settlers um he w a four volume book called The Winning of the West and it

24:56

was basically a song of praise paying to the settlers and at one point he said look

25:03

there’s no question was brutal what we did he said but he said there was just

25:08

two choices are we going to leave the whole North American continent a game

25:15

and I’m quoting him now because my memory is good enough a game preserved

25:21

for squalid Savages or are we going to turn it into

25:27

what we have turned it into the Great American Republic and so it was a kind of

25:32

darwinian a social darwinian justification now because sensibilities

25:39

changed after World War II uh dramatically changed for two reasons

25:45

because of the Nazi Holocaust on the one hand and the emergence of the

25:50

non-european world on the other hand you couldn’t quite say things like that and

25:56

so Israel couldn’t attach itself to those sorts of

26:01

rationals and the rationale then became the Nazi Holocaust and from the very beginning it

26:10

was a compelling rationale uh probably the most um the

26:18

most emotive but also I think accurate speech was given

26:24

by is uh Russian Soviet foreign minister gromo at the United Nations it was a

26:33

morally considering it’s gromo who is uh Stalin’s right-and man uh it was a

26:41

remarkably decent speech decent in in the sense of Moral Moral

26:50

sensibility because the Soviet Union lost you know the estimates are 20 to 30

26:55

million people during World War II and yet he focused in on what he called

27:03

the special suffering of the Jews well a Palestinian might ask how was the moral

27:08

sensibility how awakened was his moral sensibility to what the implications would be for them was there any

27:15

awareness of that in the speech well you have to be clear about two things number one the what was

27:23

called the yeshu the pre- Israeli state it wasn’t established fact it was what

27:29

you might call a fact on the ground and then the question in

27:34

1947 is what do you do with that fact on the ground it’s not as if we’re talking

27:40

about what to do in the future that an Enterprise should it begin it had

27:45

already begun it was a fact on the ground and the second fact is that as

27:54

Gro said if the Jews and the Arabs couldn’t get along and it was clear that

28:02

there was no basis for any kind of uh

28:07

common or joint project if they can’t get along he said

28:14

then the Soviet Union would support the creation of two states in

28:20

Palestine so it was a very it was a um a cautious state by him

28:29

first of all it didn’t it didn’t render a moral J question of well there was a moral element we

28:37

have to be clear about that he said the Jews after what they experienced during World War II they deserve a homeone yeah

28:46

uh so I would say at that level it had become morally more

28:54

complicated than anything you could say with regard to the Euro American

28:59

conquest of the West unless you accept Roosevelt’s argument and I’ve tested it

29:06

many times with my students and I’ve asked them frankly which do you think

29:12

for the for Humanity is better that the United States had come

29:19

into existence with all of its flaws and all of its blemishes and all of its

29:25

imperfections but nonetheless being the United States

29:32

or if it had remained as we can put it

29:38

in Detter language but the fact remains or if it remain

29:46

a uh a pres preserve for squalet Savages and I’ll tell you my students do

29:54

hesitate about that question because that’s that’s that

29:59

that’s quite a framing you’re accepting some pretty uh uh what can I say

30:06

twisted terms of of perception there in terms of what the place was who the

30:12

people were and what the transformation actually resulted in uh I’m not sure the

30:20

squalid the squalid quotient between now and prior to European arrival I I I

30:25

think that’s a a tossup but I get your point I got your point people have

30:31

people have internalized a certain notion of progress and that notion of progress I’m

30:39

not saying I agree or disagree with it but a notion of progress means things

30:44

like industrialization education science technology so on and so forth and when

30:53

you’re faced with the kind of uh contrast that

31:00

Roosevelt laid out it’s hard to be

31:05

totally dismissive of it uh nowadays of course it’s very

31:12

Politically Incorrect to say things like that but on the case of the Israeli

31:20

project uh there are two aspects there was the notion of creating a Jewish state in Palestine which in my opinion

31:28

uh doesn’t have any ground it cannot be justified actually the sinist movement

31:35

was in a backhanded way always acknowledging that there

31:40

exist that what they did was not justified they always acknowledge it you know how because they always insisted the

31:48

land was empty right which is a backhanded way of saying if it weren’t

31:53

empty then what we did can’t be justified yeah

31:58

so uh I think they themselves actually I made my little name as a young man not

32:05

so young 29 years old I made my name as a young man when the pro-israel

32:12

community was trying to promote the book yet again this is

32:17

1984 from Memorial claiming the land was empty

32:24

because there was a there was a as I said a recognition an eternal

32:30

recognition that if it weren’t empty then there was something fundamentally

32:35

unjust about what we did now come

32:42

1948 I think that Injustice found a moral

32:50

compensation in what happened to the Jews during World War II MH and that led

32:59

to the Zionist as it was called that then the Zionist pro project a kind of

33:08

moral legitimacy now that all changed after

33:16

1967 because there was a way to resolve the

33:22

conflict there seemed to be namely the creation of Palestinian State

33:29

beside the state of Israel as was envisaged in

33:34

1948 and the Palestinians were ready for it anybody who whose memory reaches back that far I

33:42

was in the occupied territories I don’t believe they’re occupied anymore I’m not

33:48

going to get involved in semantics but they’re illegally annexed territories and not occupied International any

33:54

longer um when in November

34:00

1988 uh yasa Arafat basically declared for two

34:05

states and it was clear two states meant were giving up on 80% of Palestine

34:13

namely the area that became Israel and if you followed things closely back then

34:20

the refugee issue was basically given up on it was a very marginal element in

34:29

arafat’s speech in November 1988 declaring the Palestinian

34:35

state so there was a and the Palestinians there was a lot of soul searching there was a lot of agonizing

34:42

but by the end of the day they were on board and uh so whatever legitimacy was

34:51

cast on the state of Israel as a result of the Nazi Holocaust that legitimacy began slowly

34:58

but surely to be eroded because of Israel’s refusal to countenance of

35:05

Palestinian state next to the state of Israel and I would say since October 7

35:11

October 7 um at a ideological level the

35:18

most significant fact has been that up

35:24

until October 7th the legit imy of the state of Israel was accepted what was

35:31

not accepted was the legitimacy of the occupation since October

35:38

7th uh the legitimacy of a Jewish state in Palestine has now been called into

35:45

question and now you mean accepted or called into question by a broad public and by International bodies and by I’ve

35:52

heard you point out not that Schumer himself called it into question but he acknowledged that the call calling of it

35:58

into question is not Beyond The Pale anymore he he gave a speech in which he said young people these days are even

36:04

agnostic on the existence of the state of Israel and in the past that would have given immediately way to a fierce

36:11

denunciation of these Nazis who wanted deny the Jewish people singularly among all the peoples of the world the right

36:17

to National self-determination but instead he said this is a real thing we have to deal with and I personally think that two states is better but there

36:25

there’s been that kind of space there’s two brands that I want to there’s like a fork in the road here and I want to go

36:30

down both Forks so let me go down the first one the first one’s about the Holocaust and the second one’s about settler colonialism something I’ve

36:36

discussed with you in the past although not uh not in public um we I think most

36:43

of us watching are familiar with the fact that your was it your first book

36:49

The Holocaust industry no no the first book was a scolly book called image of reality of

36:56

the Israel Palestine right that’s right anyway one of one of your seminal books is the Holocaust industry you’ve

37:03

done Yan’s work uh and and as much as anyone to expose the ways in which the

37:09

Holocaust has been exploited um to both retroactively and

37:16

ongoingly justify and launder Israel’s crimes and how there’s in fact an entire apparatus in Industry about it and you

37:24

know we see that in the new documentary israelism that there this that the Holocaust plays this this

37:31

crucial ideological pedagogical role in both inculcating in

37:38

Jews um uh requisite fear and the accompanying loathing of

37:45

Palestinians to justify what’s going on but also to keep non-jews or anyone who

37:50

might think of speaking out against Israel keeping them away it’s like a fly swatter I’ve been having a thought

37:57

recently and I wanted to just run it by you you know this

38:03

movie uh deals partly with trauma um featured in it are um scenes

38:12

with my father Gabor who’s a trauma expert he was in the West Bank working

38:18

with a group of Palestinians and he says to them very clearly look your trauma

38:23

there’s no PTSD here actually someone else in the movie says it but heard him say it as well there is no

38:29

PTSD in Palestine because the trauma is never post it’s not a post-traumatic stress disorder it’s

38:37

ongoing one of the Palestinian narrators Ashira Darwish who’s at really at the

38:43

center of the movie and is a really fascinating and compelling figure at one point says what by now is a fairly

38:50

familiar lament which is how can the people who committed the Holocaust do

38:55

this and I self a few months ago reached a Breaking Point with

39:01

that phrase it never felt particularly insightful to me I understand it it’s completely understandable and on a on a

39:09

macro sort of on a poetic archetypical Mythic level of course it is

39:15

unfathomable but then you remember that abused people abuse people and abused peoples abuse other peoples but

39:23

also I don’t even think it’s about the Holocaust anymore it’s about some distorted fairy tale version of the

39:30

Holocaust that’s pumped into Israelis from birth and then there’s this other

39:36

trauma that never gets talked about which is what Israel did to all

39:41

the Jews there who are not from Europe where the Holocaust happened but rather from the Arab

39:47

world and ayame’s written about this you know but when we keep coming back to the Holocaust the Holocaust the

39:55

Holocaust I worry that we we both dumb down the situation and

40:02

give ourselves literally no room to move from

40:07

it where do you think we’re at right now in terms of Holocaust discourse as it

40:13

pertains to what’s going on now I think among young people has about

40:19

zero impact right now I it’s very striking when you attend the encampments

40:28

or talk to the young people including Jewish young people that there is uh I’m

40:34

not sure you would call it Holocaust fatigue or has said or an element of

40:41

indifference has set in from overuse the currency has been

40:47

devalued um I don’t think Israel like any society not more

40:56

not less it’s complicated strands have come together

41:01

to form its dominant ideology there is the Strand from being

41:08

actually it’s correct Colonial settler State and you have to create a certain kind of

41:15

mental rationale for doing what you’re doing that is to say dispossessing

41:20

people from their ownland there is the uh the secular version the secular

41:27

and both the secular and religious version of Jewish chosenness uh this kind of superiority

41:36

complex that um and that too is not entirely mythical because Jews have uh

41:44

experienced phenomenal secular success that’s just a fact uh when Jews like to

41:51

boast that the main figures of Mo modernity uh Marx Freud and Einstein Ste

41:57

were Jewish that’s just a fact when Jews like to boast that 20% of Nobel Prize

42:03

winners are Jewish that’s just a fact and uh the about and about SE and about

42:10

75% of the scandalous uh celebrity sexual predators also seem to be Jewish

42:16

but that’s a whole yes I I I I’m I’m quite aware of that but I’m trying right

42:21

now to say that as is often said of good propaganda good propaganda the colonel

42:27

of Truth sure and um the Jewish there is

42:33

the you could say distorted but nonetheless still Jewish religious

42:40

notion of chosenness now people are going to say that’s not what it means it really means that you supposed to suffer

42:46

more blah blah blah blah but there’s an element of uh of a chauvinism there you

42:53

can call the reverse chauvinism but it’s a chauvinism and there is a secular Jewish notion

43:02

of uh chosenness which is which speaks to a

43:09

reality Jews have enjoyed spectacular secular success and that what what

43:15

attends that belief is the notion that those who criticize Jews they criticize

43:22

them because of this kind of n ra they resent the

43:29

Jews because they’re so much more successful because Jews are

43:35

better and you have so the settler

43:41

Colonial Notions of superiority to the natives interwoven with the Jewish

43:49

Notions of superiority uh and there are a large

43:54

number of other factors and one of them those other factors is it’s true that uh Jewish Jewish

44:03

history uh the famous the greatest of the Jewish historians uh oh saor

44:12

Baron uh he famously said that he did not want to write a

44:18

lacos history of the Jews that it’s all suffering all tears and so forth but any

44:24

honest person will recognize that there were periods of Real Horror

44:31

you read even when I was reading recently the collect the newly

44:37

translated volumes of Rosa Luxembourg uh and she goes to Russia

44:42

during the reaction to the Russian the early Russian revolution revolution of

44:47

1905 and there are the horrible descriptions in Rosa’s works of the

44:55

pams uh committed against the Jews and that all of that if we can call lacos

45:02

history climax the night Nazi Holocaust and many people not all but

45:09

certainly a significant number and they tended to congregate unfortunately in Israel they reached the conclusion of

45:17

never again to us that nobody looked out for us and

45:23

we’re not looking out for anybody and so the not Holocaust became another

45:30

strand in that contemporary ideology we call the Israeli Vel Israeli mindset

45:40

right U and it was frankly when you combine all of those

45:46

strands there was very little I have to say working in the opposite

45:51

direction if you going say where are the humanist elements well I think those

45:56

human elements were Stamped Out uh quite

46:02

effectively by this complex of ideas which were

46:09

really so callous

46:16

cold and ultimately deeply corrupting of the Israeli mindset when

46:25

you read the stories of what goes on in Gaza the Glee of these soldiers we don’t have to

46:33

read the stories Norman we can watch these soldiers Tik Tok videos yeah and it’s it’s beyond the point now of having

46:39

to hear Palestinian testimony we had to in the first inata it’s beyond the point

46:45

of reading Israeli testimony after the fact we can watch them live streaming no I don’t watch it I know you don’t but I

46:53

have I don’t have the uh the the wherewith all to watch it but

47:01

when you when you watch the sheer G fullness of blowing up people’s homes

47:08

now you might say well that’s true of all armies yes and no because you have to remember Israel is a citizen Army

47:16

which means to say they those soldiers are representative of all of Israeli

47:23

Society I know it sounds like an unfair thing to say

47:28

but I think it’s factually true if you know the modern history since you could

47:33

say since early 2000 that every Israeli is either a war

47:39

criminal or one step removed from a war criminal because there’s no way they

47:45

could have done what they did without it’s a small country it’s not a large

47:50

number of people and they’re controlling the Westbank and they’re controlling

47:56

Gaza and that’s half the population remember between the Jordan and the Mediterranean one half is Arab

48:05

and in order to control for the other half to control that half it requires a

48:12

large integrated integrated mechanism of

48:18

repression most of them you know most of them won’t even think of it as being

48:23

repr repressing you know Staffing a checkpoint in the West Bank humiliating

48:30

a grandfather in front of the grandchild breaking into people’s homes at night

48:37

they don’t even see it as wait you’re saying I’m a criminal because well

48:43

actually I am no I’m just I’m I’m I’m I’m

48:49

fulfilling I was just doing my job that’s true you were doing the job of carrying out an occupation like you take

48:57

the case of uh William Amman you know the billionaire

49:04

bill acman so uh he’s been writing he’s been

49:10

going a mock you know trying to stop the student demonstrations getting Harvard in line kicking out the president

49:17

punishing the student demonstrators denying them the right to go to

49:22

graduation suspensions explosions and so his wife is a former

49:30

Israeli Air Force officer okay now I’m sure she’s killed many

49:38

ARS how could you be in the Air Force I mean it was every few years they were carrying out another operation in Gaza

49:48

or an operation in Lebanon yeah or or going into Janine with the Air Force no

49:55

look it’s s it it’s self-evident I think Norm that in a society as tight-knit and

50:01

small as Israel with with a with an administration of occupation and

50:07

repression and brutalization as vast and it’s a whole bureaucracy it’s a whole industry when we talk about the Nazis

50:14

mechanized extermination of the Jews well Israel doesn’t

50:19

have giant industrial machines that do it but they have a bureaucratic machine

50:25

that does it they have an economic machine that does it they have a military machine pipeline to build and

50:33

receive and Export and import all the machines that do it so I I think it’s I

50:39

may not be as Brazen as to say that every Israeli is either a war criminal or one step removed but let’s say three

50:45

steps removed I’m with you it can’t not be in a society as where where where

50:51

occupation is as Central to and not just historical domination and this is

50:56

another another difference between the American West and I mean look the OCC to

51:03

a to an to an indigenous North American the occupation never ended but in terms of the mechanisms required to keep that

51:09

occupation going because they didn’t finish the job they didn’t finish the extermination job no they couldn’t

51:16

because somebody said the uh the great Misfortune of design this project was it

51:22

came at the end of the 19th century instead beginning yes so they couldn’t

51:27

finish the job uh though they’re trying at least now to finish the job in Gaza yes but if

51:34

you read the you know the testimonies um how they go into

51:40

neighborhoods rope off the neighborhoods and just go house to house and detonate

51:47

the homes it’s not war there’s no fog of War that’s completely ridiculous

51:54

actually I happen to think there very war going on now in

51:59

Gaza I have no idea how many Hamas militants have been killed each site has

52:05

a stake in the figure it puts forth Israel puts forth a figure now they say

52:13

14,000 something like that Hamas says 6 to 8,000 Israel always tries to put forth a

52:21

figure so that half of the total number can be claimed to be

52:27

uh combatants and that way you get to say the ratio is one to one which is

52:33

typical of most wars and Hamas has um a balancing act on the one hand it

52:41

can’t say too few Fighters were killed because then the people in Gaza are G to

52:48

say we paid the price but they want to keep the ratio up yeah right on the other hand they can’t say too many

52:54

because that would say Israel is winning well but then there’s another figure which is how many Israeli soldiers have

52:59

been killed you know and I read a figure of something like 10,000 Israeli soldiers have been disabled in this war

53:07

well I I don’t believe that this so-called War I don’t believe there is a l going on no I I’m with you on that I

53:14

think large numbers of Hamas people were killed but they were killed in the same

53:19

from the same indiscriminate fire as civilians were being killed but if you

53:25

follow the events you don’t even to follow them all that closely uh there haven’t been any

53:30

battles in Gaza right there have not they occas you know two people are

53:35

killed here three people are killed here once in a while very long while 10 Israelis will be killed but if you add

53:43

up all the numbers it’s just not that many it’s really that’s not that’s not a battle that’s some spiders coming out of

53:49

the out of hiding and blowing tank up you know ambushes and

53:55

such yeah so I don’t think I think the uh humus Fighters have been killed in

54:01

large numbers but I would say more overwhelmingly proportionate to the number of gods in general who were

54:08

killed and this indiscriminate uh or I should say discriminately indiscriminate targeting

54:15

of’s population yeah so coming back to the West Bank then and and you know

54:22

which is again where this this film takes place and it’s a place that it’s

54:28

kind of a l we forget place right now because our eyes are on on Gaza so much

54:34

that the ongoing Horrors in the West Bank um tend to get ignored or

54:41

overlooked um you mentioned settler colonialism and

54:47

I want to ask you about this and I I don’t want to get too bogg down in theory or or semantics but I’m asking

54:55

specifically because this film is part of a series of films

55:01

that this organization sand is making about indigenous struggles all over the world

55:07

which um which gives the the scope of the film a certain shape which is to say

55:13

to depict the Palestinian people to introduce the world to who they are

55:19

their relationship to that land and how a settler Colonial machinery and machine has um

55:30

either destroyed well has destroyed much and displaced them and and and completely uprooted them and now

55:37

occupies them on their own Homeland there’s an incredible line from someone who says you know we’re strangers in our

55:42

own Homeland and it just popped into my head you know we in the Jewish Justice

55:47

world like to say you know We Were Strangers In a Strange Land too so therefore we shouldn’t oppress The

55:53

Stranger and it occurred to me these people are not strangers in a strange land there’s strangers in a in in a

55:58

Homeland it’s even worse you know but when I had a conversation with you a few

56:04

months ago I remember there was some and we took a we we did your daily Five Mile

56:10

Gaza width walk on the Coney Island Boardwalk um which you do every day

56:15

usually run it for for for my uh out of shape uh sake you you agreed kindly to

56:22

do a speed walk in in the winter and we talked about settler colonialism and and

56:29

I’ve heard you talk about how you don’t like to use the term Zionism because people don’t know if it’s an ideology or

56:34

a new brand of hair conditioner uh and how you don’t like to get bogged down in

56:41

um academic scholarly terms the the

56:46

definitions of which are hotly debated you mentioned settler colonialism with regard to the west and

56:53

you mentioned this occupation’s continuity with that and the film certainly paints a picture that I don’t

57:00

think it takes too much theoretical Advanced esoteric learning or knowledge to see as

57:08

a some kind of project a project that is colonizing people coming in from the

57:14

outside to try to transform a place and it involves settlers

57:19

so what do you think are the if you have reservations about that term what are

57:25

they what is the applicability what are the what are the limitations of that term what do you think is the best use

57:33

of that kind of language the map of the world since the

57:38

human species first emerged the map of the world has changed and changed and

57:45

changed and changed and changed again and most of the change has occurred

57:51

because of various forms of Conquest so if you’re saying if by

57:57

setler colonialism you’re saying the plight of those who are on the receiving

58:03

end of Conquest then it seems to me that’s just the history of the world and it’s a

58:10

truism uh a uh an A U

58:17

formulation that um produces real scholarship has to go beyond that that’s

58:25

just a GL I would call it a very

58:30

superficial uh formulation that Conquest is brutal Conquest is ugly and that a large part

58:38

of the history of humanity is the history of Conquest that’s why if you

58:45

open up a map from The 14th Century it looks very different from the map in the 15th century 15 to 16th

58:53

and all the way really until world World War II uh where after the horrors of the

59:00

war the map of Europe more or less more or less it stabilized uh and in the non-european

59:07

world States emerged and one of the principles that emerged with that uh

59:14

emergence of States one of the principles was uh it was a complicated

59:19

thing but it said that we’re going to retain the borders that the colonial states carved out

59:26

because if you try to try create new borders it’s going to create a mess so

59:32

more or less there was an acceptance and acquiescence in the colonial world or

59:39

the newly emerging what we call it back then the third

59:45

world now it’s called the global South uh not to tample with the borders that

59:52

were created during the era of colonialism so a certain amount of

59:58

stabilization of borders occurred after World War II uh that was a new event

1:00:07

obviously there are 10,000 conflicts border conflicts still in the world but

1:00:12

more or less there was a stabilization uh which is embodied in

1:00:18

the United Nations the UN Charter and so forth

1:00:24

so if that’s what you mean by S colonialism the history of

1:00:29

Conquest fine but I don’t think it’s a very interesting topic concept I don’t

1:00:35

think it’s intellectually it gets you very far because what if I said that what if I said that’s not what I mean by

1:00:41

it what if I said what I mean by it is something actually more specific which is to say and let me just make up the

1:00:46

definition on the Fly which will be by necessity imperfect and maybe very clumsy but I know there’s something

1:00:53

there I think which is to say um a system an

1:01:01

ongoing extent in real time

1:01:07

system in which control overall control of a place

1:01:13

has been established and the areas in which it’s indigenous and

1:01:20

inhabitants can live and the manner in which they can live is being increasingly increasingly increasingly shrunken and approached upon in which

1:01:27

their free it’s not something in the past like slavery on this continent or

1:01:33

even you know the Trail of Tears on this continent although of course the trauma of indigenous people continues to this

1:01:39

day in different forms but a system of house seizures house demolitions

1:01:44

administrative detention The Wall the um the I’m not sure how much there has to

1:01:51

do withler colonialism no no not really it’s uh

1:01:57

it’s a it’s a it’s either generalized features of

1:02:03

most occupations or specific features of uh the Israeli

1:02:09

occupation I don’t I don’t when uh marks there sure are a lot

1:02:16

of settlers I mean when pal marks develop you know certain of his Concepts

1:02:21

about mode of production relations of production forces of production the

1:02:27

interaction of these factors they produced a very rich history there were

1:02:33

whole schools of History which

1:02:40

uh uh took Marx’s ideas as a foundation and they produced quite impressive

1:02:46

results there was a British Marxist School very impressive historians

1:02:51

historians there were economists I don’t find this Sellar colonialism is I don’t

1:02:58

consider it a concept the concept is a very complicated idea s colonialism to

1:03:05

my thinking it’s just a slogan and I don’t find slogans as intellectual tools

1:03:12

I don’t find them very interesting if you could show me give me show me a

1:03:19

a a uh five good books using the concept

1:03:25

of self colonialism five solid pieces of History I could show you many solid

1:03:31

pieces of history in economics that used Marxist Concepts and came up with quite

1:03:36

interesting ideas and quite novel history uh but S canoli I can’t think of

1:03:45

one book I cannot think of one book which I would call seminal which I would

1:03:51

call interesting it’s just a buzz word and un fortunately uh the so-called left is

1:04:00

it’s reped rep with buzzwords there’s settler

1:04:07

colonialism there’s the one everybody loves intersectionality completely meaningless

1:04:14

buzzword it’s based on one extremely mediocre AOG not we’re not going to get

1:04:20

into kimy kensaw right here we’re just not because there’s so many more pertinent no I hear you I hear you you

1:04:26

so and I think and just but just to re reel it into because we’re we’re we’re entering the Q&A period And I still have

1:04:32

a few questions I wanted to ask just to put a a button on it for you as a scholar and for someone who had his

1:04:39

scholarly career hijacked and capsized by bad faith actors you you maintain a level of

1:04:46

scholarly rigor that I think is really I’m talking about Concepts which

1:04:53

I find which have proven to be productive okay fair enough produced the

1:04:58

body of work which is insightful which is novel which is creative I haven’t

1:05:05

seen it with this I see buzzwords what about reaching a what about reaching a broad public which you’ve spoken about

1:05:11

as the essence of politics specific demands that can reach a broad public in

1:05:17

a particular moment yeah well the problem there is that slogans

1:05:23

are slogans are the essence of politics in many ways they synthesize the

1:05:30

political moment yes they synthesize the political moment with the ideological

1:05:37

goals of your movement they uh are very

1:05:44

atune to the state of consciousness of the constituency that you’re trying to

1:05:49

reach if you look at the history of left politics history of left politics believe it or not is mostly about what’s

1:05:57

the right slogan it’s a very striking thing that when you read the history uh

1:06:04

most of the history of the I’m speaking of the left now has been about what at a

1:06:10

particular moment is the right slogan uh nowadays my opinion is slogans

1:06:18

are political slogans are detached from political reality and they speak only to

1:06:25

one’s personal and I emphasize personal one’s Personal

1:06:32

Agenda or On’s personal aspiration and it doesn’t speak to what

1:06:38

political slogans have to do and every given moment Consciousness among people

1:06:46

sometimes in a glacial place as I said earlier so I’m reusing that phrase again sometimes it evolves slowly during

1:06:53

periods of what’s called Revolution ution political Consciousness sh shifts

1:06:59

very rapidly what seems impossible the day before seems plausible on a given

1:07:06

day and what seems plausible on a given day the next day seems very old hat

1:07:15

Consciousness is rapidly changing and you have to constantly if you’re serious political actor you have to constantly

1:07:22

be attuned to the object forces at play

1:07:27

you have to be attuned to the subjective forces at play but nowadays you just get

1:07:32

slogans like from The River To The Sea and it becomes a litness test of your

1:07:38

Purity whether or not you’re willing to chant or whether or not you’re willing to go along with that slogan I don’t

1:07:45

think slogans are about litness tests though it is true that in a slogan does embody an

1:07:54

ideology so for example I’ve said uh on

1:07:59

occasion you have a slogan from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free

1:08:06

and I say why not just amend it to from The River To The Sea Palestinians will

1:08:14

be free I can tell you why well I know because for some people it’s the whole

1:08:23

area that’s there’s a better reason no there’s a better reason and I’m a Lyricist and

1:08:30

it’s strictly formal Palestinians has too many syllables no I don’t agree not

1:08:35

as fun to chant no I don’t agree with that I I I think there’s something much deeper going on especially among those

1:08:44

who are ideologically wedded to the idea so then

1:08:50

I thought of another tweaking from the river to the Sea

1:08:56

one person one vote Palestinians will be free too

1:09:03

many to me that makes perfect sense as a political slogan

1:09:09

however if you believe that Palestine is Arab land that

1:09:17

it belongs to the Arabs then one person one vote is not in

1:09:24

conf formity to your ideology and that and that becomes a

1:09:31

political problem I recognize it as a political I have a great regard for uh I

1:09:37

have a great regard for uh say Della the head of the Hezbollah uh and he’s very

1:09:43

firm that Palestine is Arab land and as he said in the speeches since October 7th he said Israelis virtually he said

1:09:52

every Israeli has two passports they have an Israeli passport and the British passport and Israeli passport and the

1:09:58

French passport and Israeli passport and the German passport and he said they should use their second passport and go

1:10:05

now I don’t agree with that that’s why I say when people are

1:10:11

resistant to my tweaks of the slogan it’s not because of the rhyme and the

1:10:19

meter but because of what I said earlier a slogan is both a tuned to the political

1:10:27

moment but a slogan is also embedded in a whole political ideology right but

1:10:35

Norman here’s where I just I just differ with you I think which is that to you the inexurable interpretation of pal now

1:10:42

I’ll acknowledge that one possible interpretation of Palestine will be free is this is all Arab land Jews get out or

1:10:50

subordinate yourself go back to Europe which of course would elide the fact that over half of Israelis don’t their

1:10:58

main roots are not in Europe but in the Arab world that’s a whole other story that rarely gets talked about and should

1:11:03

be talked about a lot more so it’s one possible interpretation and you could say that even if it’s if if it’s a

1:11:09

plausible interpretation can the slogan or change it you could make that argument but that’s not how I interpret

1:11:15

it I’m not a chanter I don’t know hold on let me just finish the thought uh you

1:11:21

know I’m not much of a chanter I don’t go to too many rallies I don’t like to chant anything but when I hear that

1:11:26

slogan what it says to me is this land currently is not a free place and it’s

1:11:32

not a free place for anyone it’s an apartheid state

1:11:38

it is not a free it’s not a place of Freedom equality Justice true

1:11:44

opportunity Integrity sustainability nothing and so from The River To The Sea

1:11:50

we’re going to end this regime of Jewish ethnos Supremacy and replace it with who

1:11:56

knows what else but it’s not going to be that that’s to me what it says nothing more nothing less yeah but another

1:12:03

quality of a a good political slogan is there’s no

1:12:08

ambiguity that’s what made Bernie Sanders’s campaign so successful in my opinion Bernie think political

1:12:15

revolution is UN is ambiguous well that wasn’t a political slogan of his of the Bernie Sanders

1:12:24

campaign he was very clear I don’t know whether he started out that way or he

1:12:30

gradually honed his um approach but whenever anyone heard of

1:12:38

Bernie Sanders the first thing they thought was Medicare for all everybody

1:12:44

understood there was no ambiguity about that there was in good M fashion he

1:12:54

designed a political program as M used to say the object of politics is to

1:13:00

unite the many to defeat the few and you saw uh Bernie be his own version of M

1:13:07

because he talked about Medicare for all the 99% and what was the obstacle big

1:13:17

farma the crooks on Wall Street the crooks and Goldman saxs and he did what

1:13:23

a good left politician does he takes a uh he gauges the political moment and he

1:13:31

says what can unite the many to defeat the few and represent significant

1:13:39

progress obviously you can unite the many we all love um Whitney Houston that

1:13:46

will unite the many and there are only a few people who hate Whitney Houston said I’ll defeat the few but that doesn’t bet

1:13:53

you didn’t expect her to enter the ation folks it happens it’s not important but

1:13:59

so you see uh it has to be something significant unite the many to defeat the

1:14:05

few for a significant political goal that will advance the struggle for a better world as Bernie a Democratic

1:14:12

Socialist invisions a better world okay but there was no ambiguity right here

1:14:18

are the policies here are the demands just like the the Palestine movement uh

1:14:25

since October 7th it was a kind of in my opinion it was a kind of intuition they

1:14:31

immediately grasped the right slogan was ceasefire now now there could be 10,000

1:14:37

different slogans they honed in on ceas fire now and then eventually of course

1:14:43

it was slightly tweaked because there could be a misunderstanding there as you

1:14:48

can see Jamal Bowman uh he’s been been very uh emphatic on permanen SE fire now

1:14:56

because they the whole issue of humanitarian pauses and temporary se but

1:15:01

that was a good slogan Perman and of course he’s getting rewarded with wonderful unwavering loyalty from his

1:15:07

party and and just great great great things I mean good

1:15:14

slogan I understand and and what I will say in terms of from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free the one thing

1:15:21

that I do think or one thing that I think complicates it is is it’s mainly a slogan of Palestinians

1:15:30

and Palestinian solidarity activists over here not that from what I can see I

1:15:37

haven’t heard that chant uh taking place on that land

1:15:42

either from Israeli Palestinians or occupied Palestinians you know um and that they

1:15:49

have a different set of concerns and a different Horizon and a different set of possibilities that they’re con

1:15:55

considering and so I can see one of the one of the incredible cruelties of

1:16:00

Zionism in Israel is that it’s effectively divided the Palestinian and I’d have to speak to a Palestinian

1:16:07

person about this to get more deeply into it but into you would talk about cantons in the West Bank but they’re

1:16:13

kind of demographic cantons as well right you got the Palestinians of East Jerusalem who were sort of BX in between

1:16:19

you got the Palestinian citizens of 48 Israel with their sets of concerns and

1:16:24

uh adversities you got the Palestinians of the West Bank you got the Palestinians of Gaza you got

1:16:30

Palestinians of the refugee camps and the surrounding countries and you got the Palestinians of The Wider diaspora

1:16:36

and every single one of these I mean the the notion that these groups have identical worldviews and interests and

1:16:43

immediate medium and long-term concerns is I think pretty naive and

1:16:50

shortsighted and and when we try to when we paint Palestinians as a monolith I think we lose and I I know you don’t

1:16:57

love the word nuance but we lose the the details um that matter here in terms of

1:17:04

in terms of planning a Way Forward I I have no knowledge of Palestinian politics I fully confess to

1:17:11

that I don’t follow it at all um so I I

1:17:17

I prefer to stay away from those topics I’m a follower of chairman ma in that

1:17:23

regard also and this 1926 report on a peasant Uprising in

1:17:30

Hanan Province he famously wrote or famously for me he wrote no investigation no right to speak in other

1:17:37

words if you don’t know what the f you’re talking about then shut the f up F and I don’t know about Palestinian

1:17:44

politics I I actually I I know I’ve Illustrated points with the from The

1:17:50

River To The Sea because it became a uh

1:17:55

a source of contention during the [Music] um Palestine the during the encampments

1:18:04

encamp University presidents being asked do you support this slogan is this

1:18:11

slogan genocidal is this slogan uh calling for the death of all Jews and so

1:18:19

on and so forth and so I was asked to comment and the slogan and my comment

1:18:24

was uh I don’t think it is a good slogan on the other hand they have the right to say whatever they want

1:18:31

yeah one of the um I found it an insightful comment that when President

1:18:38

Shafi was being interrogated by the house committee and she was bending her

1:18:46

twisting herself in knots to capitulate to everything somebody commented

1:18:52

afterwards in the course of those several hours with shafik with President shafik two words

1:18:59

were never uttered the two words were academic

1:19:04

freedom it’s a funny thing what happened over since October 7th the whole notion

1:19:12

this sacral San principle of academic freedom and what attends that principle

1:19:18

the principle of free speech they were completely abandoned um the University president

1:19:25

lost the game I think when they accepted the questions on the terms they were asked I mean if it was me and I was said

1:19:31

do you support the slogan I would have said from what I can hear there’s nothing genocidal in that slogan

1:19:36

whatsoever you it’s it’s up to different interpretations I would have said it

1:19:42

differently I would have said are you aware in our United States Supreme Court jurist Prudence right after 100 of years

1:19:50

of evolution and refinement you’re allow to Advocate the

1:19:55

overthrow of the government yeah you’re about to Advocate the violent overthrow of the government now for many a patriot

1:20:03

for many in a patriot that’s an appalling idea and how about in the 1960s our Supreme Court upheld the right

1:20:12

as a matter of freedom of speech to burn the American flag now for an American

1:20:17

Patriot that’s also a very tormenting scene to see their flag being burned but

1:20:24

that’s our history of free speech and in on top of free speech the principle of

1:20:31

academic freedom right so I don’t even see why we’re arguing this right even if

1:20:38

it were even if it had genocidal implications we have to

1:20:45

remember overthrowing our government a violent overthrow of our government is

1:20:51

unless there is as they say you know the famous expression a clear and present danger namely the speech is so close to

1:21:00

actual conduct yeah go down the street and kill that guy exactly exactly but

1:21:08

short of go down the street or go down half the block and kill that guy it’s

1:21:15

protected speech yeah so of course that got all that all got confused with the

1:21:22

cancel culture and coming back to our coming back to our title I can see that for you and it’s just great to have your

1:21:30

approach kind of transparently laid out here getting beyond the rhetoric and

1:21:35

standing in integrity means a standing on firm incontrovertible uncontroversial not

1:21:43

subject to interpretation varities and principles such as ceasefire now is what’s required

1:21:50

and then the that that any other rhetoric that feels good but doesn’t

1:21:56

have that Foundation is likely to have um side effects or drawbacks or negative

1:22:03

consequences I don’t believe there’s any such thing as principles which aren’t

1:22:09

Modified by situations principles are uh their

1:22:15

parameters but you know as Professor chsky once told me maybe 30 years ago he

1:22:22

said everyone know principes is going to take you only so far he said we all know

1:22:28

it’s wrong to lie but if a rapist knocks in your door and says is your daughter in the

1:22:34

bedroom so much for the principal in that particular moment so principals get

1:22:40

you only so far however uh I do believe that in

1:22:46

general the principles are applicable let me just give you one example so

1:22:51

there’s this young African-American fellow a Colombia University and he came under such attack

1:22:58

poor fellow uh because he said all Zionist should be killed okay and they

1:23:04

said he was a leader of the movement in in the encampment and blah blah blah blah blah and he says all zist should be

1:23:10

killed because they’re fascists okay zionists are fascists and you should kill fascists Woody Allen Woody Allen’s

1:23:18

guitar basically said the same sorry not Woody Allen slip woody woody Guthrie’s guitar

1:23:25

I was just goingon to say that so what he got Bano famously said this uh this

1:23:33

machine kills fascists yeah okay so why do I bring it up because the young

1:23:39

fellow was reading is thinking zionists are fascists we all know fascists are

1:23:45

murderers and therefore we should kill them and that’s the exact reason why

1:23:52

freedom of speech is such a value thing let’s try to figure out what’s right and

1:23:57

wrong in that statement instead of saying this guy had you know I think he got expelled or I got some horrible God

1:24:04

awful thing happened to this poor fellow he was just reasoning it through and like what he got three he said this

1:24:12

machine kills fashist he just came to the same conclusion as buy got three and you know what it’s not so it’s not so

1:24:20

easy to unpack all that and that’s what you need fre of speech to say well you

1:24:26

know what I don’t think the fact that zus are Fascist means he should come to

1:24:33

class with an AK47 and shoot down every Israeli in the

1:24:38

room you know there some space we call it between that and that but that has

1:24:46

there has to be reason through that’s why is a good thing so I have a story

1:24:52

about Woody Guthrie’s guitar slogan it just involves me and we’re probably just going to run out of time I know you

1:24:57

have to leave right at 2:30 yes yes okay well I apologies to the people who asked

1:25:03

very good questions I’m sure that we didn’t have a chance to get to because you put the two of us in a room together

1:25:08

and uh it gets valuable very quickly uh um but I was I you know I don’t know if

1:25:16

you know this this guy named alone Levy who uh is a you know Oxford educated

1:25:21

british-born Israeli he was the former um Israeli government spokesperson since October

1:25:28

7th he was eventually fired for going over the line him a couple of times yeah yeah yeah yeah um he had appeared on a

1:25:37

Nigerian radio program that had also had me on to talk about because suddenly

1:25:42

since October 7th people want to hear what I have to say this is new for me you’ve been at this for a long time and

1:25:48

there was some idea that we would have a debate on the same program and I was wary of it but eventually I said if we

1:25:55

can set up some ground rules and and clearly agree to certain things in advance I’m willing to do it this is

1:26:02

after he was no longer in the employee of the Israeli government he was just a citizen spokesperson in his basement

1:26:08

um I so I accepted tentatively he declined and then they had him on solo

1:26:14

to spout some more of his nonsense and then they had me on a few weeks later

1:26:20

and they tweeted Alon Levy the the invitation to debate Daniel mate is

1:26:26

still open and to my surprise I didn’t even know he knew I existed he tweeted

1:26:32

sorry I don’t accept I don’t do debates with people who threaten to kill me and to accompany that tweet he posted a

1:26:40

screenshot of a DM exchange which is to say direct message exchange you know basically a text message exchange

1:26:47

between me and some random follower on Instagram who I made the mistake of responding to who said who asked me what

1:26:52

do you have against pooran Lan Levy seems like a a good guy and I replied like Woody like Woody

1:26:58

guth’s guitar said this machine kills fascists and then I say he’s he’s Gerbes

1:27:04

in a blue suit and a and a posh Oxbridge accent and I’d gladly see him hang in norenberg and somehow Alon Levy had

1:27:10

become in possession of this exchange between me and someone who was either deliberately trying to get me to say

1:27:17

something like that or who managed to get it to him anyway so he post this as evidence that I’m out to kill him so I

1:27:23

ret tweeted it and I said Alon baby it’s not going to be I’m not

1:27:29

threatening to kill you I’m not a professional hangman it’s not going to be me I’m just saying I wouldn’t

1:27:35

necessarily turn it off it was on television but anyway uh but that was my

1:27:41

that was my quote of Woody Guthrie and it was probably very ill advised because now someone with connections to the Israeli government has photo evidence

1:27:48

that I’m a homicidal maniac and anyway uh anyway that’s my little anecdote to

1:27:55

finish things because I had no other no no other idea of how to bring it home any last words you want to say about

1:28:01

what’s needed now from from us what’s what’s what are what this moment calls for my last words of is what I’ve been

1:28:09

saying for the past several months which is it’s easy to fall into despair it’s

1:28:16

easy to fall into hopelessness it’s easy to fall into despondency it’s easy to believe that

1:28:23

what you’re doing is a accomplishing nothing so you might as well just give up grow in the towel but

1:28:31

a if you don’t do nothing then nothing’s going to happen that’s a certainty if you do nothing nothing is

1:28:38

going to happen yeah and B I do not believe it’s accurate to say we haven’t

1:28:44

had an impact yeah even if you just look at minute things my new things after the

1:28:50

world after the icj ruling and March um on March

1:28:57

28th where they said that Israel has to stop its offensive uh its military

1:29:02

offensive and Rafa uh there was an increase it’s a fact I’m not saying it

1:29:08

was great but there Israel was forced to admit more humanitarian Aid into

1:29:14

Northern gossip did it solve the conflict Sal the issue of course not

1:29:20

your lives say yes now of course they regressed

1:29:25

again in May when they launched the offensive in Rafa yeah was Rafa is the

1:29:32

as destructive as what they did in Northern Gaza so far as I could tell I

1:29:37

could be wrong so far as I could tell no now I recognized we’re talking about the

1:29:44

margins but you know margins are people it’s not the mass of people it’s

1:29:52

not just numbers but to use the cliche the life you save

1:30:00

might be your own yeah and then there’s the yeah and then there’s the impact go

1:30:06

ahead finish I I do believe it’s having an impact though not nearly what one

1:30:12

would hope for uh but one thing of one thing is certain that we do nothing then

1:30:19

Israel will have a free hand to achieve its goal and it’s goal is to wipe out

1:30:26

Gaza as a viable entity that’s its goal yeah and when it

1:30:31

comes to the the broader occupation in the West Bank I would say there’s another impact being had that we won’t

1:30:37

be able to gauge until down the line you know there are effects we have that we may not get liveed to see or we can’t

1:30:43

see from here and certainly it’s I think you would agree that the

1:30:49

global conversation around Israel has shifted dramatically and that who knows who knows what effects down

1:30:56

the line totally agree with that I have to get off because I I disconnect my phone when I’m on a uh doing an

1:31:03

interview and so people are trying to contact me now (…)

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Angela Davis: ‘Palestine is a moral litmus test for the world’ | UpFront

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIVxooM5kG8

Citing the late poet June Jordan, political activist Angela Davis stresses the importance of Palestine for other social justice movements.

There has been a long history of solidarity between Palestinians and Black Americans, and these last few weeks have been no exception.

While Israel continues its bombardment of Gaza, numerous Black activists in the United States have come together to demonstrate their solidarity with Palestinians. These two places are more than 6,000 miles away from each othe

r, with very different histories. So what’s behind this common recognition of a shared struggle? On UpFront, renowned political activist Angela Davis speaks with Marc Lamont Hill on the history and meaning of Black American solidarity with the Palestinian cause.

Transkripzioa:

Intro

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