Palestina: erresilientzia (8)

16 h

RESULT: Israelis banned from The Maldives.

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797336112492363833

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Megatron@Megatron_ron

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797227022936105098

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Gabe@GabeZZOZZ

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797317683911782818

OOOOOO

COMBATE |@upholdreality

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797301224154300686

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VIKTOR ORBÁN:

“The founding fathers of the European Union were right: Europe cannot endure another war.

This was why the European Union was created.

Before the First World War, Europe was master of the world.

After the Second World War, it was no longer master of itself, occupied by foreign empires in the West and the East.

Now we play second fiddle.

As things stand, after another war Europe will not even be in the orchestra setting the rhythm of the world – if there is any orchestra at all.

This is even truer for Hungary: in war, we have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

In the past we were dragged into wars against our will, and we lost. And thus would it be now, in 2024.

In the First World War we lost two-thirds of our country.

In the Second World War, the Hungarian army’s battle-ready forces were destroyed on foreign soil.

No one was left to defend the homeland, our land, our women and children. We did not even have enough strength left to negotiate with the prospective victors.

In the two world wars we Hungarians lost one and a half million lives – and with them, the future children and grandchildren they would have had.

What a strong country we would have if they were among us!

And now we are again receiving demands to take part in a new war.

I shall say this slowly, so that Brussels, too, understands: we shall not go to war.

We shall not go east for a third time, we shall not go to the Russian front again.

We have been there before, and we have no business being there.

We shall not sacrifice young Hungarians so that the war speculators can make a financial killing.

We reject the war plan that has been devised for money, for the acquisition of assets in Ukraine, and for the interests of great powers.

It is an old plan and we know it well.

Already thirty years ago, George Soros wrote his own script for subversion, according to which Russia could be defeated by Western technology and the deployment of Eastern European manpower.

And those whose lives are lost can be replaced by migrants.”

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Chay Bowes@BowesChay

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797382352169054242

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Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil@ivan_8848

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797344191564874043

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797114609331028005

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797162991617470533

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Thomas Fazi@battleforeurope

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Kevin Bass PhD MS@kevinnbass

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797357156821319835

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Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797481282139738602

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Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1797179485042721012

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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Why Israel Tried Canceling Netflix Film Farha

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfNzXzl0MWA

Israeli officials and their supporters tried to cancel a Netflix film depicting the violence behind Israel’s creation in 1948. But their efforts failed.

Dena Takruri met up with “Farha” Director Darin Sallam to hear why she made the film and why it sparked a crisis for Israelis.

Transkripzioa:

Intro

0:00

Why did Israel try to cancel this Netflix film?

0:02

Israeli government is condemning the global

0:04

streaming channel Netflix.

0:06

Praise and criticism for Netflix’s release…

0:09

I’m talking about “Farha” –

0:10

a movie that tells the story of a 14-year-old Palestinian girl

0:14

who experienced the violence that came with Israel’s creation.

0:18

It’s one of very few fiction films to depict what Palestinians experienced back then.

0:23

And “Farha” isn’t the only film that Israel has censored and attacked.

0:27

I met up with director Darin Sallam to hear why she made “Farha”

0:31

and why it sparked a crisis for Israelis.

0:34

Why do you think so many Israelis were so outraged and upset by your film?

0:39

Because I think it shows their truth –

0:42

a truth that they’re trying to hide for so long.

0:44

What they call the day of independence

0:46

is our catastrophe – Nakba.

0:48

And they don’t want people to know

0:50

this state was built on destroying villages and killing people.

0:54

– To make way for Israel’s creation in 1948,

0:57

Zionist militias expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians from their lands.

1:03

These militias also killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities and massacres.

1:09

Palestinians refer to these events as the Nakba – meaning “the catastrophe.”

1:14

And for them, the Nakba never ended.

1:16

What we see today on the news only confirms

1:19

that the Nakba is still continuous.

1:22

The wound is still bleeding.

1:24

This is why when people [ask] me why I’m opening an old wound,

1:27

I say that the wound is still bleeding, and the Nakba is still continuous.

1:31

It’s still happening every day.

1:33

We want Nakba, Nakba now! We want Nakba, Nakba now!

1:39

It never stopped.

1:40

You chose to hone in on one very specific story

1:43

from the perspective of a 14-year-old girl.

1:46

Why did you do that?

1:47

– I wanted to show a girl who had dreams like any other child,

1:50

who had dreams to get an education, to live a normal life.

1:54

She didn’t choose to be part of this, but she was forced into all of this.

2:04

When she gets very close to her dream,

2:06

the war comes to her village…

2:14

and she’s left behind.

2:23

It looks very easy and simple, but it’s heavy.

2:25

She was deprived from her dreams

2:27

and she’s forced to grow up.

2:28

– Some Israelis who carried out the Nakba have even confirmed the violence

2:32

they committed against civilians —

2:33

like in the recent Israeli documentary “Tantura,” about the massacre in the town of that name.

2:38

Many have described “Farha” as a “mild depiction” of the atrocities behind the Nakba.

2:45

But despite that, masses of Israelis boycotted the film

2:48

and canceled their Netflix subscriptions ahead of its release on the platform.

2:52

Some even called for the film to be removed from Netflix.

2:55

They denied that the Nakba happened,

2:58

or that people were killed during the Nakba.

3:01

Or Haganah soldiers –

3:02

they were calling them the most moral army

3:06

and denying this tragedy that happened to my grandparents

3:12

and many, many people.

3:13

Israeli officials said the film’s purpose was to “incite against Israeli soldiers”

3:17

and that showing it in an Israeli theater would be a “disgrace.”

3:21

Then-Finance Minister Avigdor Lieberman also made moves to remove state funding

3:25

from a theater in Jaffa for screening the film.

3:27

The attacks against “Farha” are a normal part of Israel’s censorship practices.

3:32

For decades, the country has suppressed films and documentaries

3:35

about the Nakba and its army’s violence.

3:37

They claim that it was a land without people, for people without a land.

3:43

And I wanted people to know that there was, this land was with people

3:47

that had lives and heritage and culture and everything.

3:51

As a Palestinian,

3:51

I’ve heard so many stories about the Nakba

3:54

and read so much, seen documentaries,

3:56

but I had never seen anything like this.

3:57

– One of the audience once told me,

3:59

even if you read about something

4:00

or you hear about something,

4:03

it’s different

4:04

because when you feel something,

4:06

it stays with you.

4:08

We just commemorated the 75th anniversary of the Nakba,

4:10

and the Nakba survivors that remain,

4:13

there aren’t that many or their time is slowly coming to an end.

4:16

And for them to be able to watch this too, I’m sure was really powerful.

4:21

I remember this lady, her name was Layla, I think she was 80-something.

4:24

She’s a Nakba survivor.

4:27

And when the Israeli attack happened, she said, “I am Farha.

4:32

If they’re denying her – this film, then they’re denying me.”

4:36

Are you hopeful that your film is heralding a new era

4:40

of this genre of Nakba-related movies?

4:43

– It’s a dream come true because

4:45

some film critics and experts are

4:48

defining “Farha” as the film that

4:50

launched the genre – the Nakba genre,

4:53

which is amazing.

4:54

It was avoided in cinema for so long,

4:57

and I think it’s about time that people

4:59

hear about it and make movies about it.

5:01

– Despite Israeli attempts to cancel the film,

5:04

Sallam has achieved her goal.

5:06

“Farha” has been screened around the world

5:08

and with the film available to millions of Netflix users,

5:11

it’s allowing the Palestinian experience to reach many

5:14

who may have never even heard of the Nakba.

5:16

In the world premiere in Toronto,

5:18

I remember many people saying, “We didn’t know about the Nakba.”

5:21

They’re Googling Nakba.

5:23

I wanted the new generations to learn about this event.

5:25

It’s for the Palestinian cause.

5:29

The old will die and and the young will remember [by] the film “Farha.

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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October 7th: The Whole Story Finally Revealed

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/live/yfzw-sBVP2E

A new al-Jazeera documentary finally offers the most definitive story of that fateful day – and I talk through the shocking claims of real atrocities and false claims with journalist Richard Sanders.

Watch the documentary here: https://i-unit.io/October7

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

October the 7th it’s not the day that the clock started on what we often euphemistically call the Israel

0:06

Palestine conflict but it is the moment of course that the current horror began

0:12

that was the day when Hamas and other armed groups broke through the fence separating Gaza and Israel committing

0:17

atrocities which the Israeli State used to justify what many of us consider to be genocide against the palestin people

0:24

of Gaza tens of thousands of Palestinians killed including over 14,000 children

0:30

Mass displacement of virtually the entire population the mass destruction of Civilian infrastructure the violent

0:36

dismantling of the health system growing famine we could go on but what’s true about that day itself and what’s false

0:43

now we’re approaching six months since that faithful morning and a really brilliant and important new documentary about Alger investigations seeks to

0:50

finally establish the truth the whole truth and nothing but the

0:58

truth now I’ve watched it and it is chilling

1:05

it’s a brilliant piece of Journalism but it is chilling and it’s chilling in part because of the atrocities which were

1:12

committed against unarmed and innocent Israeli civilians on the 7th of October

1:17

and it’s chilling because of the false claims which were used in order to justify the Mass Slaughter of the

1:24

Palestinian people in Gaza which is ongoing now I’m going to interview the top journalist Richard Sanders who’s

1:29

done so much work of course on this crucial piece of investigative journalism a little note first back in

1:35

late November I recorded a video which was posted on my YouTube channel and on other platforms following a screening I

1:42

watched uh hosted by the already Defense Forces in central London it was a compilation of atrocities committed by

1:48

Hamas and other armed groups real terrible atrocities now that video

1:53

caused huge controversy to say the least and indeed a firestorm of smears lies and really disturbing false claims about

1:59

what i’ actually said which appeared in multiple media outlets and all over social media what I made clear from the

2:05

beginning was that Hamas had committed serious and grave war crimes on the 7th of October which I have seen too much

2:11

evidence for with my own eyes which nobody should be any doubt about I also said that in some cases the actions of

2:16

the Israeli military were responsible for some of those civilian casualties but that the evidence was that

2:22

overwhelmingly it was Hammer militants responsible for the large majority of Civilian deaths and that most of those

2:29

killed and 7 of October were civilians and of course civilians were also taken hostage in large numbers that itself is

2:36

a grave war crime I also said that not withstanding the terrible atrocities which were committed by Hamas militants

2:42

some of the most extreme claims which actually often received the most attention which were then used to

2:47

justify the Mass Slaughter of the Palestinian people the most notorious claim but not the only such claim

2:53

probably being the beheading of babies were not justified by the evidence

2:58

provided let’s just see a clip from the documentary related to that Hamas

3:04

Fighters and others committed crimes on October 7 the Israeli media however

3:09

focuses not on the crimes they committed but on crimes they did not I’m talking

3:14

to some of the soldiers and they say what they’ve witnessed as they’ve been walking through these different houses

3:20

these different communities uh babies their heads cut off that’s what they

3:25

said no one could expect that it would be like this the horrors that I’m hearing from these these soldiers uh as

3:33

I as I mentioned earlier about 40 babies at least were were taken out on

3:40

gurns the eye units list of the Dead shows no babies were killed in kafar AA

3:45

the kibot this report came from the story was nevertheless picked

3:52

up by International media and repeated by President Biden

3:59

I’ve been doing this so long time I never really thought that I would

4:04

see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children now what I

4:11

would say having watched This brilliant documentary obviously with far far more work in evidence and skill clearly

4:18

involved than what I spoke about in my video in response to the IDF screening

4:24

what I said in that video is entirely justified by what Al jazer has uncovered

4:29

and I think think I would say to those critics who did respond that they should

4:35

watch this documentary and they will see that what I said is entirely justified

4:41

by the evidence before I start the interview my academic training was history and based on that I know it’s so

4:47

important we understand why events however horrible happened what exactly

4:52

happened in the events and what those events then led to it’s often very difficult the time to do that not least

4:58

when there so much human Fring so much pain and raw of emotion involved and when you have an ongoing conflict in

5:04

which propaganda seeks to erase truth and state actors and their allies SE to seek to stifle critical voices and to

5:10

Marshall evidence real or otherwise to support a military Onslaught it’s still important we try it isn’t easy but this

5:18

documentary I think really does come the closest to knowing exactly what happened that day um and as we see the Mass

5:25

Slaughter of the Palestinian people we do need to know exactly what happened on that tble day and which I’ve said

5:30

terrible war crimes were committed which does not justify in any way the Mass Slaughter which has since taken place

5:36

any more than the atrocities against hus in Rwanda in the 1990s or in the same decade against serbs in Bosnia Justified

5:45

genocides there now let’s go talk to the Great Richard Sanders um Richard I

5:50

watched it um and yeah I mean it was chilling it was really very well put together by the way brilliant work um as

5:55

you would expect from you and your team um and it was for lots and lots of lots

6:01

of different reasons I just want to start because what you do is you look in this and it’s very you know there’s it’s

6:07

it’s very very well evidenced and sourced um and it paints a very clear

6:12

picture that atrocities were committed on the 7th of October but some of the

6:18

more high-profile or the most high-profile examples didn’t actually happen and in fact I was quite struck by

6:25

one of the in the in the comment she when when it was pointing out that um that that actually there were crimes

6:31

committed but the media ended up focusing on crimes that weren’t committed so firstly I just want to ask

6:38

what’s the purpose of doing this some would say well look why do you need to why do we need to get bogged down of this atrocities we know were committed

6:44

you say that in the film war crimes were definitely committed and you see them I’ve seen them with my own eyes what’s

6:49

the what’s what what’s the purpose journalistically I suppose of of of knowing um of of saying this happened

6:57

but this didn’t happen why why is that important because of everything that has happened since um in the wake of uh

7:04

October the 7th and as a result of October the 7th the Israelis have launched this bombardment and subsequently a ground invasion of the

7:10

Gaza Strip um which as you say has cost at this stage over 31,000 lives almost half of them children was an appalling

7:18

cost and so we we need to get what happened on October the 7th right because it’s being used as justification

7:24

for this and it will reverberate for decades to come as well now if you look when ever the Israelis or their their

7:32

supporters in the west are challenged about these appalling death tolls and so on um they talk about babies and they

7:39

talk about rapes um it’s it’s used again and again to to signify something that

7:46

what happened on October 7th was so appalling that the people who committed

7:51

it have effectively abdicated their right to expect to be treated as human beings U and you know there’s a long

7:57

tradition of this you you you you can go back to the way Native Americans were exterminated in the 19th century the

8:04

Indian Mutiny as we we still call it the same thing whereby the the atrocities supposedly

8:12

committed by those rising up are portrayed in the worst possible Liv and it’s always the same it’s always babies

8:18

it’s always and rapes it’s always those two things and so it’s not just nitpicking it’s not just say people were

8:24

killed in this way not that way those specific things were used and are used for a reason

8:30

uh to justify what has subsequently happened and therefore it’s really important to put under the microscope

8:35

whether they did actually happen or not um so it was clear before we just

8:40

discussed some of that that war crimes were committed by hanas and other armed groups and individuals because actually

8:45

there was quite a lot of chaos the fence came down and basically anyone who wanted to leave that fence at that point could leave so it’s actually not

8:51

entirely clear often who were even talking about or looking at um and I suppose I mean we we see for example at

8:57

the music festival the no music Festival which became I I suppose the most striking horror of that day uh for for

9:05

lots of obvious reasons lots of generally younger people partying and then then suffering horrible violent deaths and you do see clearly atrocities

9:13

are committed I mean just the fact for example you know shooting it portal L you know that that’s they don’t you know

9:20

I mean or or for example you know um trying to hide in a bomb Shel and then throwing grenades in and so you can see

9:27

these atrocities you can see them shooting people in kabot team um and it also pays a picture of total chaos that

9:34

you know they didn’t they were kind of victims of their own success in that they didn’t think they would be able to push in so far and they didn’t seem to

9:39

have a strategy so they ended up in kot team and it wasn’t actually clear even what they’re trying to do so what did we learn from that the kind of approach you

9:45

know the the actual war crimes that committed and what that said about the the kind of military strategy I suppose

9:51

of that day yes I mean we focus quite a bit on these bomb shelters along the main Highway um all Israeli bus stops

9:57

have a little bomb shelter next to them in case there’s a missile alert and it’s actually very instructive that that story because what you have is people

10:03

fleeing the music festival um take shelter in these bomb shelters so that’s about a 100 people in all in the four

10:09

bomb shelters now it’s clear that the main aim of the day is to take hostages they they they want to overrun these

10:15

military bases but that aside uh the main aim of the day is to take hostages now you’re right herass is clearly

10:23

surprised by their own success as everyone is you know the claps the intelligence failure combined with the

10:29

claps of the Israeli military is extraordinary it is astonishing and unprecedented which is what has given

10:36

rise to one or two conspiracy theories about why that that should have happened um but so they they they they find

10:42

themselves suddenly in this position where they have huge numbers of civilians at their Mercy uh and at that

10:48

point they’re rather taken by surprise at that point everything is going to depend on the caliber of the sort of low

10:54

low ground level military leadership of Hamas and that’s they clearly found one

10:59

it becomes chaotic they’re not imposing discipline in fact as far as I can see they’re they’re joining in in the

11:05

committing of atrocities so these these four bomb shelters given that what they’re fundamentally trying to do is to

11:11

get hostages this is a godsent to them these people have effectively handed themselves to them these bomb shelters

11:16

don’t have doors on them um there they are they’re rounded up they can just take them out and take them and and and

11:21

they don’t they they just stand outside lobing H grenades in and it’s you know it goes on for longer than we show in the film it’s appalling to watch and you

11:27

can hear the screams of people in side it’s Dreadful to watch and it really is indicative of uh you know well of an

11:36

entirely unacceptable way of Behaving you know we’re saying they they they didn’t kill kill Slaughter and mutilate

11:41

babies they didn’t um commit widespread and systematic rape but they they did some Dreadful things and that’s clearly

11:49

true um but it success exposed hamas’s limitations as a military

11:55

movement I mean yeah just I mean it it it in terms of on that I mean one of the

12:01

things I I did a video so I might be aware in response to saw the IDF screening of um which compiled various

12:08

um horrors of the day of 7 of October and and one of the points I suppose I raised was

12:16

um in terms of just how disorderly it was um that you did have some evidence

12:21

so I heard for example um Hamas militants one some yelling at the Nova Festival save the bullets for the

12:27

soldiers so there was some attempt at Dem ation but with others there wasn’t I mean do you think that’s reasonable do you think some basically their strategy

12:33

was basically if we come across civilians we can use them as hostages um and we’re going to kill soldiers um well

12:40

all those were just their their perspective basically was civilians were fair game as well and so it was kind of

12:46

there wasn’t just one clear approach there was lots of different ones which which varied depending on who who the

12:53

individual was really I hadn’t heard that specifically and that would be interesting if that was the case um I I

12:59

I think a lot certainly at the kutes your fate a lot depended on who the bloke was who walked in the front door

13:05

uh you know because it was chaotic the the fact of the matter is that young men with guns given licensed to commit

13:11

violence tend to behave very badly the norm is they’re going to behave very badly they need to be constrained by

13:16

good platoon level company level leadership and that was not there um so

13:22

I mean on the whole if you actually look at what they’re doing the the music festival is a wild card they clearly hadn’t anticipated the Music Festival

13:29

and there wasn’t a plan for it and their instinctive response seems to have been to Simply shoot as many people as they

13:35

could um what what they’re doing and you can see this in the kutes they they enter into environments and shoot

13:41

anything that moves passing cars they shoot at if they see somebody scuttling along a pathway they shoot at them they

13:47

see a movement in a house they shoot shoot at that person once they have people in their power you know sort of

13:54

helpless in front of them they generally take them hostage yeah always you know

14:00

and I can certainly you know think of instances where people are helpless in front of them uh and they kill them um

14:07

so yes you’re right to a degree it’s left to the initiative o of

14:14

individuals that point but on the whole that the prevailing ethos is

14:19

extraordinarily Cavalier towards um civilian life I think it’s it’s a really important point to make and as I said

14:25

having seen much of the original footage more footage of horror than i’ care really to to have preferred to have

14:33

watched but yeah it’s it’s clear that’s that’s definitely what what happened now

14:39

there were certain claims made that day which were false and I think we just need to just

14:44

talk about that now one the most I think notorious example is beheaded babies and

14:50

clearly that is going to have the most visceral impact on people imaginable the idea of beheading a baby is probably the

14:58

most Disturbed thing anyone could probably think of I don’t think there’s anything worse than that really is

15:04

there so that was repeated by Joe Biden using the bully pulpit of the US

15:09

Presidency wasn’t it days after it happened and it was you know clearly

15:16

when the onslaught given within five days more Palestinians had been killed than Israeli killed on the 7th of October it was used basically every time

15:25

anyone had any kind of quals or problems with what was happening it would be well these people beheaded babies I mean

15:31

that’s clearly what happened so just can we just talk about this question about beheaded babies because to be

15:37

clear 36 children died were killed on the on the 7th of October which is bad

15:42

enough on his own terms um one baby was killed shot through a safe door but also

15:48

a pregnant woman um was shot and had a cesarian and that her unborn baby was

15:54

killed as well there were no beheaded babies so can you just talk us through what the hell happened with that and

15:59

what how you know what that claim was what that claim then really yes I mean

16:05

you can see why rumors perhaps are flying around people also are aware of the the use that can be made of these

16:11

stories but almost immediately extraordinary stories start to be told about babies and and this is very simple in a way because we have the list of the

16:17

Dead we spent a lot of time it was very complicated and difficult to do we spent a lot of time drawing up a very comprehensive list of the dead and as

16:24

you say there are two babies um killed on October 7th appalling a child

16:29

eight-month-old child who dies when a bullet is fired through the door of a safe room another baby who dies after an

16:34

emergency uh cesarian but that’s it there are no other babies those two babies are not beheaded or or burned or

16:41

anything like that or put in an oven that was another one yes so that’s right they’re put in the oven so so basically

16:47

it’s very simple whenever you hear people talking about the large scale murder of babies the mutilation of

16:53

babies you know it’s not true okay you you know it’s not true and that’s ter

16:59

important and and that began to seep out after a week or two I I think an

17:04

awareness began to seep into some parts of the press that some of these stories weren’t reliable I mean the 40 babies

17:09

most of them beheaded was sort of discredited pretty quickly um now but

17:16

that was terribly important because that should have established a precedent whereby we thought well hang on if

17:21

Israeli officials Israeli army officers and First Responders are telling us something we shouldn’t take it on trust

17:27

but in fact people did continue to take things on trust and and this has important implications for what in a way

17:33

was the next wave of atrocity stories after the babies which was rape and sexual violence before we come on to

17:40

that I mean another really striking well in let’s talk about zacha so zacha just so people are aware they kind of first

17:46

responder Jewish kind of religious Jewish first responder service they they’ve been involved in quite a lot of

17:52

Scandal over the last decades involving um serious allegations of involving well

17:58

Financial scandals but also sexual abuse um their late uh that was their late

18:03

leader wasn’t he who committed suicide um now zacha um people may have seen

18:10

they did Big press conferences and and addressed journalists with often blood curdling examples of Horrors and

18:17

atrocities um and the leader Yosi Landau you actually interviewed now we saw him

18:23

give some performances where he is overwhelmed apparently with emotion deeply AFF Ed by Horrors unspeakable

18:30

Horrors that he has seen including for example families where their hands and you know they’re tied they they’re with

18:37

a family where they’re tortured the eyes gaged out of the father before they killed the fingers chopped off of the

18:43

boy before you know and then they’re tortured horribly like that and then they’re all killed and then they go and eat afterwards some some food that was

18:50

then repeated by Anthony blink the secretary of state that didn’t happen did it no

18:56

simply untrue and again we we know this we can pick apart the um we can look through the list of the dead and there’s

19:02

simply no family that corresponds to that I mean you know um 13 children under the age of 12 die on October the

19:09

7th two of them are actually killed by the Israelis so that that leaves leaves 11 and you know so you can look in detail of the circumstances of their

19:16

deaths and none of them none of them die in those circumstances so yes zacha specifically Yosi Landa the southern

19:22

commander of zacha the source of an awful lot of these stories early on H

19:28

and Ultra Orthodox religious organization a rather strange Arrangement the Israelis have whereby

19:33

they Farm out the sort of collection of bodies which is partly to do with religious reasons uh to an organization

19:40

like this so first of all let’s be fair to them um they are amateurs they’re volunteers they’re not forensically

19:46

trained um you know they they they they were not equipped to be commenting on the state of the bodies they found but

19:52

nevertheless did and Zachary itself has eventually said well actually you know our volunteers are not trained they’re

19:58

not trained in forensics um why do they tell all these stories let’s pick this

20:04

apart um first of all to be fair to them they’re overwhelmed and they’re traumatized they’re just not set up for this they they what you know they have

20:11

seen Dreadful things and they’re traumatized by it I think possibly sometimes they were confused by what

20:17

they’re looking at I mean a body that has been violently killed particularly if rocket propelled grenades are

20:22

involved is is a dreadful sight and you you the imagination can fill in all sorts of things having said that um a

20:31

number of the stories simply um just have seem to have no foundation in fact

20:37

at all and I think people can draw their own conclusions from that now why they’re doing this we have in the film

20:43

um Netanyahu goes to visit them and he thanks them for talking to the press and for the stories they’re telling to the to the world’s press and it’s quite

20:50

explicit he says you know this is another front in in the war we the the um the sort of information war is a part

20:57

of the war he’s quite EXP explicit about it well he says that you influence public opinion in the west and that

21:02

public opinion then has a pressure on the leaders of those in the west and we know from other quotes benjam n who is

21:08

actually very concerned about we expressed concerns apparently about demonstrations protests in the W so he’s

21:13

very clear about the role of rest and public opinion because the West arms and supports Israel yeah so his point to

21:19

them was actually you’re play a key role because you’re influencing public opinion and we need to keep public opinion on our side and and you do that

21:26

by by by bigging up the story by by doing rapes and doing VES and so we actually filmed Yosi doing a sort of

21:32

talk to a group of female Americans um who who were visiting Israel and yes I

21:38

mean he has he he has he goes through a routine he he does and this was you know this was filmed in January he was still

21:44

telling all the same stories and you can see the impact these women are putting their heads in their hands and you know

21:50

um you can see the impact it has I as you say this was also an organiz organization in crisis um allegations of

21:57

child sexual abuse um financial crisis Financial irregularities and it it depends

22:03

entirely on voluntary contributions and um its financial problems have disappeared since October well I noted

22:10

the other day I uh noted that Elon Levy the Israeli government spokesperson has being using Cameo uh which is um where

22:17

people can record videos for fans in exchange for money um and he defended himself by pointing out he was raising

22:23

money for zacha um yeah and so you know there’s a whole bunch of of reasons um I

22:30

think the people who are really culpable well politicians regurgitated it’s not

22:35

surprising that is Israeli politicians regurgitate it it’s disgraceful when Western politicians start to just

22:41

regurgitate this stuff without questioning but they do and British politicians have a lot British politicians of both political parties

22:47

including David Lamy Shadow foreign secretary who’s in the film yeah yeah and you know and and you know again as I

22:54

say every time you watch them every time the conversation is about a ceasefire and and the scale of the civilian

23:00

casualties they will talk about babies and they will talk about rapes every every single time now the

23:05

media to a degree the media initially I mean you know you’re you’re a site where clearly large numbers of people have

23:11

been killed this is the poor fell who’s had to pick up the bodies why wouldn’t you believe him you know you know in

23:16

normal circumstances you would I think with the passage of time and particularly once the 40 baby story

23:22

began to unravel greater skepticism should have kicked in and and it didn’t

23:28

and and particularly again we’ll go on to this the sexual violence um while skepticism began to k kick in about

23:33

beheaded babies it doesn’t seem to have kicked in about the sexual violence before we talk about sexual violence um

23:39

there was a story which was popularized by um by zaka and you interview Yas Yosi

23:46

Lando about this and I’m slightly amused about why he agreed to be interviewed given his performance here hideous story

23:52

about a pregnant woman it is not the only questionable story that Yosi landow tells about kibot bar

24:00

we go further then we

24:05

see woman she was lying on the floor a

24:11

puddle of blood big puddle of blood she was a pregnant

24:23

woman her stomach was butchered open

24:31

the baby that was connected to the court was stabbed and she was shot in the

24:39

back kibot Barry has denied this account the story of the pregnant woman reported

24:45

by zacha is not relevant to Barry and that story is believed to have

24:50

happened at the saintia massacre where the fange a Israel backed paramilitary

24:56

Force conducted a hideous Massacre which Ariel Chiron then in the Israeli the IDF then became Israeli Prime Minister was

25:02

held culpable for by an Israeli commission um now there’s no evidence

25:07

for that happening is there and what I found asonic is he tried to show you a photo to prove it had happened but the

25:13

photo didn’t prove anything of the s yes I mean it’s psychologically people more qualified than myself would have to to

25:19

try and pick this apart um why he offered to show me a photo that he didn’t have seems very strange I know

25:26

there you go but but going back yes and and that horrific scene didn’t didn’t happen and and reportedly it supposedly

25:32

did sa shatilla I mean you know this perhaps a slightly controversial I think to say this but this is a thing

25:38

Palestinians would say and I think there’s some logic to this um if you actually listen to Israeli descriptions

25:46

of what happens on October the 7th they’re not actually describing what happened on October the 7th they’re describing what happened at Sabra and

25:53

chitila um sexual violence now obviously something very difficult to talk about

25:58

well um now I thought a really brilliant interviewee was Madden Reese OB she’s a

26:03

British lawyer current Secretary General of the women’s international league for Peace and Freedom I believe that there was

26:09

rap in every conflict Whenever there are men with guns intent on perpetrating

26:15

violence it is highly unlikely there will not be sexual violence but nothing that I’ve seen put forward so far

26:21

suggests that it was widespread and systematic it’s a very high bar to actually reach we know war crimes

26:28

atrocities were committed on the 7th of October and therefore you know it’s so we’re not saying this is not to say this

26:33

did not happen that’s not the argument being made here at all there is the the argument was made about Sy systematic

26:41

rape that that was used as a strategy deliberate strategy by specifically Hamas yeah so so with rape and sexual

26:50

violence yes the basic point we’re making in the film is that they you simply cannot argue that it was

26:56

widespread and systematic systematic is important because the idea is that it’s deliberately instrumentalized by by

27:02

Hamas as a weapon of war and there simply isn’t the evidence for this as you say terribly important to say we’re not saying there were no rapes at all

27:08

there may have been um but but that it was widespread and systematic there simply isn’t the evidence for

27:16

um when you actually boil it down uh and the the UN report that came out a little

27:22

while back essentially did this as well when you boil it down the that reporting the New York Times the BBC and the

27:29

guardian who have all done big exposes investigations into this they all essentially rely on Israeli officials on

27:35

Army officials and on First Responders okay we’re in the same group of of

27:41

problematic um Witnesses who were discredited by the by the baby stuff

27:47

okay so you have to put that aside and then look at the solid evidence let’s come back to firstly the Visual Evidence

27:54

you know I’ve watched uh almost seven hours of footage from October the 7th um

27:59

and there is nothing in it um that would indicate that there are no instances of

28:05

sexual violence in the footage I have I’ve witnessed you then have huge numbers of postmortem videos and photos

28:13

which again I you will see women who have blood on their trousers and so on I mean you know that that really isn’t

28:20

evidence so the the one image that I took particularly seriously um was an

28:26

image of a young woman um who who was photographed her body was photographed

28:31

she’s lying next to her car which is next to the main Highway um about nine miles north of of of the festival site

28:38

the music festival site it’s a particularly tragic death she they clearly left the music festival very

28:44

early her and her husband and um they’d almost made it you know they she dies at

28:49

about just before S I think and had they got there a minute earlier they they they run straight into the very first

28:56

Hass um Fighters arriving at that kibutz there now basically her the the footage

29:04

of her her body it’s clear she’s she’s not wearing underwear uh and that’s what seems significant there the New York

29:10

Times made it the centerpiece of their story is that they they have a picture of the family and about a third of the

29:17

article relates to this and almost immediately afterwards the sister came out on Instagram and said no she wasn’t

29:23

raped we know she wasn’t raped um basically she was in touch with the family she texted just a few minutes

29:28

before she died and there was no mention of rape at that point in fact at that point you know they they they weren’t in trouble at that point they were hoping

29:34

to to get out of there um then after she’s shot the husband is on the phone

29:39

to his brother and I think he’s on the phone for 44 minutes um and again no

29:45

mention of rape so you know I think it’s pretty clear that that which was the most compelling Visual Evidence there

29:50

was was not evidence that that that that was not the case now if we we take that

29:56

un report from a couple of weeks ago it talks a lot about young women tied to

30:03

trees or to posts with the the lower part of their clothing removed now that certainly would you know be be

30:09

indicative that something disturbing might have happened but again I’ve just not seen any images as far as I can see

30:15

there are no images to support this um the the sexual mutilation of bodies I’ve seen no images to support this again it

30:22

was interesting that un report a couple of weeks ago said that that there’s nothing to support the idea that there

30:29

is a pattern of the sexual mutilation of bodies so you know and and

30:35

there’s a problem that there are so few Witnesses there’s no there’s no forensics at all that might be the chaos of the day it’s startling how few

30:42

witnesses there are the music festival is an open site thousands of people survive the massacre at the the music

30:48

festival and to have effectively two witnesses I mean one or two others have

30:54

spoken to journalists or individual journalists but effectively have two witnesses is strange I mean I know

31:00

people are traumatized sometimes people don’t speak for some time sometimes years afterwards I understand all of that but it’s odd you would think there

31:08

would be more than two witnesses coming forward the the fact that there are there are no victims of course at all

31:14

again that may be because they’re they’re you know they were killed um but the the the poity the lack of witnesses

31:20

is strange before I just finally ask about in terms of those killed by um by the

31:27

Israeli military we’ll just talk about that I mean the point made by my near namesake maren Jones who’s a academic

31:34

researcher who I’ve interviewed myself um is you know why these stories and the

31:40

point he made which I thought was very astute was if the Israeli state is killing far far far far more

31:47

Palestinians which it has I mean both in absolute numbers and proportionately the number of October 7th is that Gaza has

31:54

now suffered is obviously in huge so then a distinction has to be made we might be killing more but their killings

32:00

are depraved that’s what makes it that that’s why we’re morally Superior so we retain moral superiority even though

32:07

there’s far more o so you know over 14,000 Palestinian children have been killed and that point you made about the

32:14

you know if we talk about that baby being shot through the safe uh the door of a safe room horrible that’s not

32:20

morally different is it from Israel they could go well we’re not delivered we’re not trying to kill um Palestinian kids

32:28

well I mean if you if you wck if you’re just carpet bombing a Gaza you’re going to do that aren’t you as we’ve seen but

32:35

that’s the point isn’t it is to go well actually they intentionally killed babies and children in a sadistic

32:41

fashion because they are they you know they’re and that’s and that’s they’re they’re animals and that’s why that

32:46

justifies what we’re doing and that’s why we’re morally Superior that’s the point is it dehumanizes there’s a sort

32:52

of specific switch in the brain once people have become Savages which is the word Marco Rubi actually uses in our

32:59

film then they can’t expect the same treatment and we emotionally feel

33:05

differently about their deaths once once you have people have moved into the category of Sava Savages and barbarians

33:11

then then um it matters less and that’s why specifically there is such a focus

33:18

on these these depraved crimes of of of rape uh and

33:24

babies finally in terms of um we what there’s a bit of there’s a lot of

33:30

discussion about the Hannibal directive um which for those who don’t know because an Israeli soldier was taken

33:36

hostage um a long time ago by Hamas kept for years and huge numbers of Palestinian prisoners were released as a

33:43

consquence humiliation so then the argument was well if they try and keep take a soldier hostage it’s bet that

33:50

that they’re killed rather than taking captive um and the question is whether that was then applied to the question civilian hostages on that day um and you

33:58

interview various military analysts who are actually disturbed by the footage of helicopters firing um on you know

34:06

without knowing what the targets are so can we just talk through I mean at the festival what what do we know at the festival about that well I think the

34:13

Hannibal directive if it applies it’s to do with Apache helicopters and it’s also within the kutes I mean there’s you

34:21

always get these strange things going on on on social media there was one particular post which pointed people

34:26

towards the festival as the of um the S Friendly Fire deaths and

34:31

actually I’m not really seeing um evidence there I think I think it would be else elsewhere but basically what you

34:37

have is the Hannibal directive actually goes all the way back to the 80s and as you say it was a view that you know

34:43

better you kill everyone then let somebody be taken back as as hostage because then they’ve got us you know

34:48

they can use it as a bargain chip and so on it was supposedly rescinded a few years ago but the reporting specifically

34:55

from the Israeli newspaper um yot Aron not um was that it was it was revived on

35:02

October the 7th specifically a midday a version of the Hannibal directive was issued now the Israeli Army has not

35:09

denied this it certainly hasn’t confirmed it but it has not denied this and the the Visual Evidence would seem

35:15

to us to support it so two aspects to this firstly the apachi helicopters the Israelis released enormous quantities of

35:22

of gun camera footage and you can just look at it they you look at the footage and particularly when they’re shooting vehic they can’t possibly know who

35:29

they’re shooting and we you know we geolocated a lot of this imagery and you know a lot of these cars and people are

35:35

moving West they’re heading towards the Gaza Strip they’re coming from the settlements so you know they can’t

35:40

possibly have known that these these cars and these groups of people didn’t

35:45

include hostages now we know from an eyewitness there is certainly one person

35:51

who was killed by a helicopter we think the number is quite a bit higher than that um here in analyzing deaths you run

35:59

into the problems of the complete chaos and also the amateurishness of zacha that work the proper work of documenting

36:06

where bodies were found what state they were founded and so on was not simply wasn’t done so we’re always struggling a

36:12

little bit here but we have identified 27 people who were clearly taken hostage

36:17

taken away from their homes um but were dead before they got to the fence and we simply don’t know how they died I think

36:24

there’s a fair chance that a number of them were were killed by P helicopters we wouldn’t know about it because they’re dead and and everyone who was

36:30

with them was dead very interesting thing Yosi landow told me it’s not in the film this but um zacha were asked to

36:37

collect the Palestinian bodies as well which they did um and after a while 21 of them were sent back they they they

36:43

said no hang on these aren’t Palestinians these are Israelis which begs the question of why they were mistaken for Israelis in the first place

36:50

and logic would say it’s because they were found in the Open Country towards the fence surrounded by other

36:56

Palestinians logically would suggest there so I’m I’m very much back of you

37:01

know this is very much a guess probably somewhere in the 20s you know teens 20s

37:07

people killed by Apache helicopters quite important that because you also you do see stuff on social media that

37:13

the majority of people were killed um yeah that was the case you know there’s just no evidence for that whatsoever you

37:20

then come into the kutes where ground troops also appear to have been extremely aggressive in the way they

37:26

retook K like bar and kafar AA I mean it’s actually very interesting you watch

37:31

the raw footage of journalists being shown around these kibot in the days afterwards and a lot of them are saying

37:38

you can sort of hear them chatting to their sort of military minders and so on saying well hang on that that house is completely destroyed you know because

37:45

the Hamas come across the border with sidearms and and and with rocket Propel grenades they also burn houses you know

37:52

so that’s that’s quite important you because they’re trying to smoke people out of their safe rooms so you see a

37:57

house destroyed by fire that quite possibly is herass but a lot of those houses and we showed this in the film are clearly simply D destroyed by heavy

38:04

heavy Weaponry so that’s when you see from the top like the Roes are missing and all the rest of it that’s from well

38:10

that can be fire damage that can be fire damage and I don’t think the Apache helicopters were firing within the kutes

38:15

it’s tanks so we’re dealing with it on the whole I don’t think they were anyway it’s Tanks i the incident we we tell at

38:22

Berry uh where there are 12 people who are pretty clearly killed by um the is

38:27

forces when they retake this house which actually is interesting because it’s the house um that senior officials and and

38:34

Yosi Landa then talk about as having been full of babies or children and in fact Not only was it not full of babies

38:40

or children but in fact the people there um were killed by the Israeli military

38:46

there there are six others we we’ve identified who who are are clearly killed by the Israeli forces as they

38:52

come in again I suspect the real figure may be higher um you you often see pictures of people who were being sort

38:58

of dug out from the the rubble um and we we just don’t know how they died obviously they they were dead once the

39:04

house fell on them whether they were dead already we we we just don’t know so again you know I think we’ve got a

39:10

figure of 18 killed by ground troops I suspect it’ll be rather higher but again

39:16

not as high as some of the speculation you see social media a large majority of those killed including the civilians

39:22

were killed not they were killed by Hamas or other armed groups yes by Hamas and others who came through the fence

39:27

you know at the very least 90% of the of the people who are killed of the civilians who are killed are killed by

39:34

Hamas and others at the very least 90% I think that’s important to say just because I think often when I post about this people do suggest I just see the

39:41

comments people say say it’s a lot higher um I think it’s important there there isn’t the evidence for that and

39:46

even if we start to include those deaths where it’s questionable and so on you you you you you still don’t get into

39:53

anything like the sort of numbers some people are talking about just finally then let me as we we’ve seen now the

39:58

horror on luer Gates Gaza um and I mean we don’t actually know the actual death toll because we have the official death

40:05

toll which doesn’t include those thousands buried under the rubble and there are also people for you could just

40:10

pluck out a random someone with cancer who’s not getting medical care I mean it’s just endless and the these one

40:16

projection is that in terms of excess deaths if for example Rafa is invaded um

40:21

then by August over 5% of gaza’s population will have been killed so we’re talking about a truly I mean just

40:29

by historic standards that’s a that’s one of the great killing killings of our time killing speed of our time

40:35

um 7th of October as we’ve established atrocities were clearly committed and

40:40

that’s that’s absolutely true um but these equally false claims were made in

40:46

order to justify what happened next that’s that’s clearly what happened do you think we’ll ever have a proper understanding of what happened on 7th of

40:53

October or do you think a lot I think we’re fairly fairly close to it you never have you’ll never have an

40:59

absolutely definitive totting up of the the bodies and so on and I think this is um a huge frustration for the relatives

41:05

of those who died and there’s those 27 people for example we we identify I

41:11

think their families are enormously frustrated as well by the fact that they don’t know what happened and it’s very distressing for them so I think you know

41:18

the the inadequacy of zacha and also the fact that it was overwhelmed and and the fact that bodies were not properly

41:25

collected and registered and so on means we’ll never a precise Reckoning but I think we in our film I think we’ve got

41:30

you know a fairly good broad Reckoning of what happened yeah and and it comes across I should be clear that’s very

41:35

clear that comes across like that yeah yeah and it’s appalling it’s appalling what happened um but you know as I say

41:41

some of the things that are claimed didn’t happen and it’s quite important because those those are the things that it used to to justify what then happened

41:48

subsequently well it’s a a brilliant piece of journalistic work and again also you know my training was as

41:53

historian and it is important that we understand accurately what happens for our history um and this is I think a

42:00

crucial contribution to what will be you know the the picture of what happened that day and what’s happened since so

42:06

the link for that is in the video description so make sure you uh watch it and you share it um please like this

42:12

video and to subscribe do share the video but Richard thank you so so much brilliant thank you very much

oooooo

oooooo

The truth about October 7: Director Richard Sanders discusses his Al Jazeera film with Peter Oborne

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/live/u4vqO-Y70Mk

“When the Israelis and their supporters are called on to justify the ferocity of their response, which has killed far, far more people than the Hamas incursion… again and again and again, they will talk about babies and they will talk about rapes.”

Award-winning journalist and film director Richard Sanders, sits down with Middle East Eye columnist Peter Oborne to discuss his latest film with Al Jazeera’s Investigation Unit (I-Unit) October 7.

The film provides a forensic analysis of the Hamas-led attack on Israel that day, revealing human rights abuses committed by Hamas fighters. The months’ long investigation also found that many claims repeated by politicians and western media, including mass rape and killings of babies, were false.

Sanders explains that the failure of western media outlets in reporting these claims has been used by Israel to justify its war on Gaza.

Watch the Al Jazeera documentary here:    • October 7 | Al Jazeera Investigations  

Transkripzioa:

0:06

hello I’m Peter obor columnist for Middle East ey and we have with us today

0:12

Richard Sanders the film director who made the new Al jazer documentary

0:19

October 7th it’s a very harrowing and educational

0:24

film based on an enormous amount of material how long did it take you to

0:30

make that film um well I started work on it at the end of October I did a week or two of development work on it at the end

0:36

of October then we we had the whole team up and running early November and then we were pretty much done by the end of

0:42

of February there was Christmas within that but we worked through Christmas for the most part so close to four months

0:49

and the stuff you had to although it was must have been harrowing for you going through the terrible things that

0:56

happened on that day well yes so we Unearthed about 7 hours of footage close to 7 hours of of footage um quite a lot

1:04

of footage which is from the head cams of of dead Hamas Fighters uh which the Israelis um had released um hamas’s own

1:12

videos which were of course edited dash cam footage CCTV footage and of course

1:18

inevitably people’s phones you know something like this 40 years ago we’d have probably vir no images of it at all

1:24

but the these days everything leaves such a such an imprint so you know as you see in the film you can see it

1:30

happening um my colleague spent a long time he I had a

1:35

colleague who who really put the work into drawing up a list of the dead because that was very important to sort

1:41

of forensically get the numbers and look at the circumstances of each death and really start to pick that apart we based

1:48

it at wet and and haret had their own lists and we combined them and then researched around that but that that was

1:54

an awful lot of work as well but that was very important work because it enabled you to say definitively for

2:01

example that just two babies were killed on the that day and in the light of the

2:09

the the stories which went around the world that 40 babies had been beheaded and you were able just to say two babies

2:15

were killed and and describe the circumstances in which that happened that’s right it’s it’s enormously important you know I’d never say only

2:22

two babies were killed you know obviously that’s a tragedy in in itself but the two babies that died one was

2:28

shot uh they they f a bullet through the door of a safe room and it hit the baby the other the mother was hit and there

2:35

was an emergency cesarian and and the baby died so the important thing about the babies is that any story about

2:43

babies which is not about those two specific cases you know it’s not true

2:48

and what’s interesting there is that there were a lot of stories about babies usually multiple babies cold-bloodedly

2:56

murdered and then mutilated burned and so on and you know this isn’t true because you can simply compare it

3:01

against the list of the Dead um and that’s enormously important because that immediately flags up to you there is a

3:07

problem with accounts that come from Israeli government officials Israeli Army officials and First Responders I

3:14

think this was the thing that the media here struggled with for a while is you know why wouldn’t you believe First Responders I mean if you turn up at an

3:20

accident or a tragedy in in England and the the ambulance man says this to you you don’t think well you know um and I

3:27

think this was a problem that it took took British media a while to realize hold on you you have to double check

3:33

what what a lot of these First Responders are saying and these stories though are going on you’re still getting

3:38

senior Israeli people uh saying and the British press talking about burned

3:45

babies aren’t you the the the babies thing um doubts began to creep in fairly

3:52

quickly and the the 40 B babies most of whom were beheaded was was discredited

3:57

but the LIE gets out there first and then the awareness that this is unreliable is is much slower to spread

4:03

so I think there’s still an awful lot of people out there who believe there was the mass killing of babies um although

4:09

the media has pushed back on that a little the the the issue of sexual violence and and widespread and

4:16

systematic rape which is what the Israelis claim is slightly different in that the really until very recently the

4:23

the Israeli narrative there was pretty much accepted uncritically and we really you know our film and the work of one or

4:30

two other people really is just the beginnings of pushing that back against that in the last few days and we can

4:35

talk about this more the last few days that you you can see the beginning of a broader unraveling of that narrative

4:42

that should be very interesting some somebody like me who follows the these

4:47

things without intense detail tell us about just describe factually what’s

4:53

gone on with that New York Times story so the New York Times story this was a

4:59

lot of media outlets around the world the New York Times the guardian the BBC all did Big in-depth investigations into

5:06

sexual violence and basically echoed the Israeli claim that it was widespread systematic instrumentalized weaponized

5:13

you know a part of a part of strategy now the New York Times one screams

5:18

without words it was entitled um it begins with the story of a young woman

5:24

who who died 9 miles north of the music festival site her body was filmed

5:29

following night it’s Lying by the main roadside um where it she’d been killed

5:35

you know more than 12 hours before um and and you know basically it’s very

5:40

clear it’s very graphic film she’s not wearing any underwear now obviously this is heavily blurred in the version we use

5:46

and and that other people have used um now in frankly in the absence of much

5:53

other Visual Evidence I took this one very very seriously and we looked into this fairly carefully and the um

6:00

the New York Times made it the the the the opening part of their story and about a third of the story relates to

6:05

this and they had a picture of the woman’s family and immediately the New York Times published the family came out

6:11

and said hold on we know she wasn’t raped and you didn’t tell us you were doing a story about sexual violence she

6:18

was texting us until a few minutes before she died also her husband who was with her got on the phone to his brother

6:24

immediately after she died and had quite a lengthy phone conversation with him and no mention of rape at all so you

6:29

know this which was really one of the strongest cases and the ones that where a lot of the Visual Evidence it looked

6:34

pretty vague to me um but that you know this did look stronger it immediately

6:40

evaporated and that that was a was a real problem for the New York Times that was the core of the story now

6:45

subsequently in just in the last couple of days the New York Times itself has reported that another of the stories

6:51

that it told about two sisters who were found who in a way that suggested they’d been raped that this story was entirely

6:57

untrue as well they video has no emerged of their the discovery of their bodies and this is entirely untrue as well and

7:03

the New York Times itself is reporting that perhaps in an attempt to to regain some credibility but they so the the New

7:10

York Times which it attracted a lot of attention came out just after Christmas that story has really unraveled and then

7:16

you know the Revelation um that one of the authors of it had worked for Israeli intelligence um you know which was

7:23

rather odd as well I’d like to draw attention to the BBC’s piece actually the BBC did a piece on the 5th of

7:30

December where again it it entirely reproduces the Israeli narrative and

7:36

again when you read it carefully it depends entirely on Israeli government officials um Israeli Army officials and

7:44

First Responders okay again is incredibly thin the the direct evidence

7:50

now just that that BBC article which no one really has focused on um there there

7:57

is an interview with a woman called kav elim Levy who had set up the Civic

8:03

commission to investigate um sexual violence in October the 7th we were becoming

8:08

profoundly skeptical of her there were there were various things about her that rather worried us but the BBC relied

8:14

heavily on her in the last few days um there has been reporting in Israel that the Israeli government is

8:20

distancing itself from her the Civic commission she set up was always a rather odd thing I mean was it a

8:26

government body no in that case what was it I mean it turns out was her on a website for which she has raised $8

8:31

million apparently um so she’s a you know she is a a witness that is emerging

8:38

as being or um or a voice that is emerging as being very problematic

8:44

um and then also and this really is extraordinary the BBC speaks at length

8:50

to me Goan who is the Israeli woman’s empowerment Minister and you know it has

8:56

a lot of harrowing quotes from meelan Megaland is a right-wing member of a

9:02

very right-wing government um she’s on record of saying she is a proud racist

9:07

she has subsequently said that she is proud of the ruins of Gaza I mean to present this woman neutrally as if she

9:15

is some conventional Western politician without any contextualizing at all pres to present

9:21

her as someone who can be trusted in what she says about Palestinians is extraordinary by the BBC quite

9:28

remarkable and and that you know all the focus has been on the New York Times piece but really that December the 5th

9:33

BBC piece and the and the reporting the guardian has done you know really bear some scrutiny as well so the

9:39

BBC um have they have they had these points made to them are they showing any

9:44

signs of having to re-examine no that reporting I mean alternative Media made

9:50

these points on online in social media as always happens you know I think it

9:56

was the gray Zone said well hang on this is who may go is are you really going to

10:01

quote her with no context whatsoever but within mainstream media no no push back at all do you think the BBC ought to

10:09

reexamine its report yes I think should I mean I think everyone’s going to have to reexamine um that it was it was an

10:16

extraordinary example of of group think and I think for understandable reasons

10:21

no one wants to deny sexual violence for far too long in Conflict situations sexual violence was ignored and people

10:29

people didn’t take it seriously enough and you know I think a lot of the work that has been done over the last 20 30 40 years is enormously important so no

10:37

one you know wants to be on the wrong side of that argument equally there is a

10:42

a very strong tradition of the demonization of men of color by

10:48

portraying them as sexual predators and I think the fear that actually that was part of what was going on here ought to

10:55

have kicked in a bit sooner with some some media um human rights w very very

11:00

serious respectable human rights organization is doing the nearest thing there is to a thorough independent

11:08

investigation into the events of um October the 7th and my understanding is

11:13

their report will be out in a couple of months and I I think it’ll be very important to look at that yeah as you say I mean sexual violence there is a

11:20

danger isn’t there that it gets overlooked or misunderstood or um there

11:27

some kind of you know something about it which men like you and me might under under under traditionally people have

11:34

you know that people have have played down you know not taken seriously enough

11:40

it’s very interesting the last few days we’re beginning to see quite detailed accounts of sexual violence against Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers

11:47

and now of course the same applies uh an independent investigation must look into

11:52

this you you don’t just accept people’s allegations um you know without probing

11:58

them but immediately that stuff feels to me more tangible and concrete I mean you know

12:05

how it is with the story and it was the same with the anti-Semitism thing in the neighbor party when you’re trying to pin

12:11

a story down and the closer you get to the heart of the story The vager it appears and the the more the more um

12:19

harder it is to to get the concrete outlines of a story and already with the allegations of rape against Palestinian

12:26

women it feels more tangible and concrete in in that context I was struck

12:31

by the one of your interviewees in in your film meline Ree of the women’s

12:39

international league for Peace and Freedom where she um put it rather well didn’t she she didn’t Tred claim there

12:46

had been no sexual violence but she simply said what what did she tell yeah so the key Point mine was making was

12:52

quite possibly there would have been sexual violence in fact she she suspects there will have been simply because there always is you know young men with

12:58

guns given license to behave badly is what they do um but she made the point that

13:07

for widespread and systematic sexual violence there just is nothing like

13:12

sufficient evidence you would expect far more evidence I’m just a very very quick thing you know this music festival which

13:18

is where the rapes where almost all the allegations of rape center on it’s an

13:23

outdoor Festival okay now hundreds of people are killed at that Festival thousands are not you know you know

13:29

there’s a lot of people most people survive these ropes are supposedly happening out in the open where where

13:35

are the witnesses you know there’s a couple of witnesses one of whom’s anonymous you know immediately and I I

13:41

know sometimes people are traumatized sometimes people don’t speak for a long time and I I understand all that but it’s odd that there aren’t more

13:47

witnesses it’s it’s very odd now now meline I was enormously grateful to meline ree You Know i’ spoken to a

13:54

number of people within International women’s organizations who who were angry Frank

13:59

The Bullying that was going on by the Israeli government and and people who support the Israeli

14:06

government you know and and and people have to confront threats to their funding you know and I spoke to a number

14:12

of people who were not prepared to go on camera and I absolutely understand why they weren’t prepared to go on camera I get it I know why they weren’t prepared

14:19

to go on camera but meline was and I’m enorm she she was not only very articulate and and very

14:25

clear um but also simply to have the courage to put head above the parapet is

14:30

enormously Brave in this context the next point which you make towards the

14:35

end of your film of course is that the what what was

14:41

going on with these very lures and terrible Stories being promoted right

14:48

from the word go by Israeli sources and absolutely Amplified in the global media

14:55

particularly the British and American Media I should think is the um what was what what is the effect of it and one of

15:02

your one of your Witnesses Mar oen Jones talked very eloquently about the

15:09

consequences of this course kind of apparently fabricated discourse yes so

15:15

it’s very important to say our film is not an apologia for Hamas and other people who who followed them through the

15:21

fence we’re absolutely clear that widespread and horrific human rights abuses were committed on the 7th of

15:26

October we’re absolutely absolutely clear about that what we’re what we’re saying is that the the stories that were

15:32

reported for the most part the wholesale Slaughter of babies widespread systematic rape were not true and this

15:39

isn’t pedantry this isn’t saying all people died in this way not that way those stories are enormously important

15:45

the babies the rapes because when the Israelis and their supporters are called

15:50

on to justify the ferocity of the response uh which has killed far far

15:57

more people than the you know original Hamas incursion when they’re called upon to justify that response again and again

16:04

and again they will talk about babies and they will talk about rapes um it’s abs and you see this in other historical

16:11

situations where the same thing happens when you need to justify Savage

16:16

repression of a group um if you can dehumanize them if you can reduce them

16:21

to the level of savages to the level of people who are not part of the family of humanity then it’s much easier to

16:29

slaughter them you know to carry out the wholesale Slaughter of them and that and and and stories about the the murder and

16:35

mutilation of babies and of of widespread and systematic rape do that they they serve a purpose which is why

16:42

it’s important it’s not pedantry we’re not saying well they died in this way not in that way it’s very important um

16:47

the fact that those stories were not true I remember reading the in the days

16:53

when the after the lure the headlines you suddenly got a a certain

16:59

uh withdrawal of the story but the the the papers would say oh but it’s still

17:05

look I mean higher they were killed doesn’t matter the fact is they were and it was barbaric who anybody who tries to

17:12

sort of quibble about the details really there something wrong with them yes I mean with babies that was particular

17:18

does it matter if they were beheaded or just shot I mean the point was you know they weren’t killed in anything like the

17:23

numbers that was being claimed and there was no mutilation going on it is different I mean two babies who are killed

17:30

um you know I don’t want to belittle it if you you you you shoot a bullet through a door where there might be a

17:36

family on the other side you you know you are responsible for the fact that that bullet is hit a baby um the the

17:43

bedin woman in fact who was shot she was in her car at you know they were just fired at the car you know it’s not to

17:49

excuse people but they it was not the coldblooded murder of someone standing over a baby and then taking the decision

17:55

to to to kill it um so you know it was it was significant these stories were

18:01

not true it was important and it informs then of course the genocidal language

18:07

which you start to get again very quickly from leading military Human

18:12

animals for instance comparisons of Isis I think we started to get at that stage and marar Rubio says in our film you

18:19

can’t you can’t negotiate with these Savages and so you’re just framing a

18:25

situation where the only opt only option is just to kill really and it’s it’s

18:31

profoundly important psychologically and emotionally um people just do relate

18:37

very differently to the suffering of people they have decided are savages than they do to to the suffering of

18:42

people who are like us you know what I mean it it it plays a very important role of course one other point you know

18:49

the these stories of mass rape and the beheading of babies and uh has have

18:57

therefore one is it POS is it fair to say licensed or

19:02

created a situation where 9,000 women have been killed none of them competence yeah that’s right I mean most of the

19:08

victims in the Gaza Strip are women and children in fact the peculiarity of the

19:14

casualty statistics we produce which no one has picked up on actually is that more women are dying than men now that

19:21

that well more women are being reported dead than men which might be the peculiarity of who it is that makes it

19:26

to a hospital I mean the the death to in Gaza at the moment is a massive underestimate because of you there are

19:32

so many bodies under the rubble so many um so you know they simply can’t count

19:39

the dead anymore but um so the death to that’s interesting the death toll so far which is 32,000 approximately well that

19:46

that’s the confirmed dead it’ll be much higher than that and that is confirmed go through the you looked at the these

19:51

procedures well this is from the you know the the health ministry’s figures now again this is a thing the the um

19:58

Western media always says the Hamas controlled Health Ministry the World Health Organization the Lancet The

20:04

Washington Post Human Rights Watch they’ve all done thorough analysis of the the gazen health ministry’s figures

20:10

and looked at previous conflicts and they’re they’re absolutely reliable they’re absolutely reliable there is no

20:17

need to be attaching this this sort of health warning to them and so no I we we

20:23

take our figures from the Garen Health Ministry because there’s there’s no reason not to the key thing to say about

20:28

those figures is they will be a massive underestimate you know a lot of bodies are still under the rubble the Israelis

20:34

have been attacking hospitals it’s you know it’s become harder and harder to actually just keep the bureaucracy of

20:40

Health going and Counting the dead but also when they produce the lists of the dead and so you’ll know more more about

20:45

this than me so Arabic names all all all all Arabic people have four names and

20:51

you have the and included in that is the father’s name and the grandfather’s name um and you also have the identity card

20:57

number so it’s extraordinary that the health Ministry was continuing to be able to

21:03

produce these figures but they’re also very very checkable and in past conflicts um outside organizations like

21:09

the World Health Organization and so on have gone back and checked them and found them to be absolutely

21:14

reliable just just while I’m on it actually the other thing that he’s always said is um Hamas hides behind

21:22

civilians okay now it’s well worth going back and reading the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reports for

21:29

2009 and 2014 when similar things happened and they they don’t uncover a

21:35

widespread pattern of Hamas using human shields in fact there is there is you know good

21:42

evidence that the Israelis use Palestinian civilians as as human Shields and again this is just repeated

21:48

every time on British media with no one pushing back at all it’s worth saying actually in this context you have

21:54

extensive um experience of reporting from Iraq for instance on Iraq 20 years

22:00

ago it was exactly the same everyone said that that the fedin were hiding behind civilians and I went to all the places where all the battles took place

22:05

and I knocked on doors and it just wasn’t true it just wasn’t true one question I’d like to ask you I mean

22:13

what’s been the reaction in the western media to your very powerful film it’s

22:19

been entirely ignored it’s been absolutely ignored hasn’t been picked up at all which which we rather expect I me

22:24

it’s very odd though they they they work on the assumption that if they don’t pick it up no one knows about it but

22:30

these days you with social media um you know these things have widespread

22:35

circulation and people are aware of it and people notice people notice that the BBC and

22:41

the guardian and so on are not telling these stories and it’s h it’s it’s a problem you know it’s a problem in that

22:49

you know to a degree and and by degrees and gradually and slowly these these institutions lose lose credibility and

22:55

the the the figures for the The public’s confidence and faith in the BBC are terrifying you quite a lot of what you

23:02

did was newsworthy for above all perhaps that you know that you’re you’re

23:07

discrediting of of the testimony of Yosi it’s hugely hugely newsworthy it

23:14

couldn’t be more newsworthy I mean I think it’s worth I just want to say here that the sexual violence thing in

23:21

particular is a case study in the absolute abject failure of traditional

23:26

media you know we’ve talked about Guardian the BBC and the New York Times but there were many others as well and

23:32

the research here has been entirely dependent on Independent Media and I

23:38

think it’s it’s important to name them because to a degree I piggyback on them I we we we were doing our own very important research as well uh in

23:45

parallel to them but but you know they they were doing invaluable stuff we’re talking mov we’re talking gry Zone we’re

23:51

talking electronic into F we’re talking the intercept and we’re talking YES magazine to some extent had its

23:58

newspaper in Israel as well you know to to actually grasp the truth of what

24:05

happened particularly on the sexual violence issue you had to read those Outlets you you couldn’t possibly rely on on traditional media The Times of

24:11

Israel had some interesting stuff I read about the hanal doctrine well the the

24:17

the Israeli media has filled a gap where Israel where where Israeli lives are are

24:22

the issue so the Hannibal Doctrine this um practice traditionally the Israeli

24:28

military has had of rather than allowing two three four soldiers to fall into enemy hands and become bargaining trips

24:35

they say kill everyone kill everyone you know which is clearly something that they’ve done in the past with soldiers um the reporting in yot arut Israeli

24:43

newspaper um was that at midday on the 7th the the Israeli military issued a

24:49

variation of the Hannibal directive and we we’ve examined um gun camera footage

24:55

from Apache helicopters in great detail and there’s also stories of of when the Army and the the anti-terrorism police

25:01

entered the kutes of their behavior and it’s clear this is the case now um and

25:07

again the running has been made there by Israeli media I Israeli media has not been good on the baby’s stories it’s not

25:13

been good on the sexual violence stor but on on the issue of where Israeli lives are concerned they have been good

25:18

and they’ve made the running largely ignored uh in the west just want to say there there is there has been a tendency

25:24

on social media to for people to pick up that story and run with it and say most of those who Di died on on October the

25:30

7th were killed by the Israeli Army it’s not it’s not true I mean I think a significant number were killed by the

25:35

Israeli Army but it’s it’s not half or or even anything remotely close to half just to your your film has the numbers

25:43

if they’re on your head you might just go through them how many people were killed because

25:48

originally it was 1400 wasn’t it the Israelis initially said what what do we now just break down the numbers as yeah

25:54

so we we have um we break it down on our film and it’s it’s a little under 12200

25:59

in the end the the the number the Israelis ended up with isn’t isn’t wildly inaccurate um I think it’s 782 of

26:06

them um are civilians 36 of them are children uh 13 of them are children

26:13

under uh the age of of 12 um in terms of the friendly fire because there seems to

26:19

be a great appetite to put specific numbers on this so let me make this very clear we reckon 18 people are almost

26:26

certainly killed by is ground troops we know at least one person is killed by

26:32

helicopter fire um on helicopter fire we identified 27 other people who are taken

26:38

hostage taken away from their homes but are dead before they reached the fence and we just don’t know how they died um

26:45

there was a lot of amateurism in the way the bodies were collected and recorded which is a big problem which we we’ll

26:50

never be able to overcome you can’t replace that information so of those 27 dead you know it’s quite possible a fair

26:57

number were killed bachy helicopters we just don’t know um with ground troops I

27:02

have a suspicion a number of people were killed in cars as they ran into roadblocks again we can’t know because

27:08

they’re all dead um I I my guess would be I mean again going back to Iraq 20 years ago that was happening all the

27:14

time the Americans were shooting people running into roadblocks um within the kutes you you know you look look at

27:22

kafara and kib ber and so on and the media was full of pictures of these kib

27:28

kibot in the days after October the 7th and you just had to look at them and think well hold on the the Hamas

27:35

Fighters had sidearms and they had rocket grenades but they didn’t have anything that would do that um and it’s

27:41

clear the Israelis came in very aggressively and a lot of houses were destroyed by the Israelis now I’m sure

27:48

you know on the whole they would have taken care to checked there weren’t

27:53

hostages in there but we know from various stories that that wasn’t always the case a lot bodies are discovered

27:59

under the rubble of houses and we just don’t know how they died so we have this figure of 18 people we are you know

28:06

we’re almost certain are killed by Israeli Ground Forces as they go into the kibot seam but the actual figure

28:12

will be a fair bit higher than that but again not not you know we’re not in the hundreds or anything remotely like that

28:18

but it’ll be a fair bit higher than that figure very quickly on on damage to houses in kibot

28:25

um the gunmen were burning houses hous down because they were trying to smoke people out of their safe rooms so when

28:31

you see burned out houses that quite often is the result of of Hamas action

28:36

but when you see houses that are destroyed clearly by heavy Weaponry that are not burned they’re simply flattened

28:41

then that would have been done by the Israeli Army yeah it’s very heavy story it’s very I must say it must have been

28:48

gring beyond belief to go through that kind of material yes it was I mean you know as I

28:54

say I watched over seven hours of it and my my my colleague uh colleagues um you know looked in detail

29:00

at every death um I think it’s a source of enormous frustration the the amateurishness of zacha which we’ll come

29:07

to this organization that the Israelis zacha is the um organization in Israel

29:13

which goes to Terror atrocities or to public sort of

29:19

disasters and takes the looks after the dead is that right and prepares them for burial yes it’s a religious thing uh the

29:25

the Israeli government has this slightly unusual arangement where it Farms this out to them partly for religious reasons

29:32

I think um and they are an organization of ultra Orthodox volunteers and I think

29:38

the first thing to say is they were just overwhelmed on October the 7th they were not prepared for something on this scale they were overwhelmed and I think they

29:44

were quite often traumatized um but but it the bodies were not properly

29:49

photographed in csue not properly recorded it’s enormously frustrating for for the families of many of the Dead

29:55

that they they simply don’t know exactly how when where their relatives died so

30:00

you know the work we’ve done minutely picking apart I think there’s this frustration that we can’t come up with a

30:06

more specific figure for the number killed by aache helicopters and Israeli tanks and so on but it’s just impossible

30:12

because the data data just isn’t there so was it was zacha

30:19

making honest mistakes or in because it was overwhelmed or because quite a lot

30:25

of that statements were absolutely like 20 baby two piles of 10 dead babies just

30:32

run through yes Z United he zala is another organization you also have Israeli military officials now they they

30:39

they give a lot of information that turns out to be false I think to there’s an element to which they’re traumatized they’re overwhelmed they don’t really

30:45

understand what they’re looking at they’re not forensically trained there is an element of that but when Colonel vac stands in front of that house in ber

30:52

where where all of the hostages were actually killed almost certainly by the Israeli Army and police

30:58

he stands in front of that house and said eight babies burned and killed I took them out with my own hands there

31:03

were no babies no babies at all now you know you can draw your own conclusions as to why he’s saying that but it’s very

31:09

hard to see it as as a a mistake so why do zacha and the other um and the the

31:15

Israeli military tell these stories and there’s confusion and genuine mistakes yes but but others it’s it’s clear they

31:23

not true it’s clear they not true um now we have a sequence in the film where you see Ben Benjamin Netanyahu thanking

31:30

zacha Volunteers in December thanking them for for talking to the international media and he effectively

31:35

says this is another front in the war the information front um zacha also was

31:40

an organization in trouble its founder had been um found guilty of of child

31:46

sexual abuse and there had been some funding scandals as well it was an organization in trouble and it has

31:52

raised a lot of money since October the 7th and um you know the various

31:58

representatives of zacha go on speaking to us and so on and they they tell the stories of what happened on October 7th

32:04

whether there is a correlation between the types of stories they tell and the amount of money they get I I don’t know that’s for people to make their own

32:11

judgment one other one last thing I really found very instructive about your

32:17

film and this was the Epic scale of the

32:22

intelligence failure it’s not just what I I knew we knew about which was the the

32:28

warnings from Egypt um and the fact that you know it

32:33

was going on in plain sight the train training was going on in plain sight and they would put the videos online yeah

32:40

that was quite uh but the fact that that 2:00 that morning unusual activity was

32:46

detected on October the 7th yes I mean it’s hubris isn’t it um there was Shin B

32:52

met they didn’t just sort of have tele telephone conversations did they actually it might have been a zoom

32:58

meeting a zoom be meeting but it was it was shim and Military Intelligence they met up no I mean as so often with these

33:05

things it’s not lack of information it’s a bit like 911 you know in retrospect you could join all the dots the information was there is the

33:11

interpretation of the evidence now the Israelis had or reportedly had the Hamas

33:17

plan um but just because people have plans for something and have prepared to do do something doesn’t mean they’re going to do it and the Israeli the I

33:24

think the Israeli analysis was they were whistling in the dark this was Hamas keeping its courage up you know sort of motivating the troops and what have you

33:31

they thought Hamas was contained they thought Hamas was mut they have this meeting at 2: in the morning or 3: in

33:37

the morning where which is important obviously the information they were getting was the

33:44

young spotters along the fence who were often young women were were were saying hang on there’s something going on here

33:49

and it was sign significant enough to have a meeting but then they didn’t put on on as a general alert what is

33:55

unforgivable when you have word that some something’s going on is not even to have raised to alert level one there was

34:02

no alert level sent out at all okay um now okay they might have underestimated

34:07

it they might have thought we don’t take this seriously but they could have at least put the word around the numerous military bases around the Gaza Strip

34:14

that you know just be be on alert they didn’t the music festival you know

34:19

crucially continued through the night and was still going on at 6:00 in the morning when when all this kicked off

34:25

and um and at the various military you can see it a lot of them are killed in their beds yeah and you had that footage also

34:32

of of of armored cars which hasn’t haven’t been they’re absolutely taken by

34:37

surprise it’s a total shock to them which given that Shin batan Military

34:42

Intelligence had enough information that they were talking to each other in the middle of the night that there are then

34:48

soldiers 4 hours later who are killed in their beds is unforgivable really no I I

34:54

think your film is will become one of the definitive accounts of what

35:01

happened why was it left to you Al jazer to make this film and not done by the

35:07

you know the Sunday Times Insight unit who have done it’s a good question BC verify which is that’s what is

35:13

apparently about Etc what’s going on there I don’t know and I don’t know I mean would 20 30 years ago would this

35:20

film type of film be made I think I think quite possibly it fits in with this I mean you know you and I have been

35:26

mainstream media journalists most of our Lives I’ve made over 20 dispatches you’ve made many dispatches I think on

35:31

the whole we we haven’t felt ourselves censored you know when we’ve tackled phone hacking or or uh the war in

35:39

Afghanistan which I did in the war in Iraq I’ve never felt myself censored Western media has a peculiar problem

35:45

with with covering Israel there’s just a peculiar conceptual problem it struggles

35:50

with and um you know I’m not one of these people who thinks you can never

35:55

believe a word these buggers say and they’re all in a conspiracy to deceive us I don’t believe that but they do struggle to cover

36:02

Israel and the fact that there’s been total media Silence about the very significant

36:10

discoveries uh in your film tells us a great deal and we come back to the previous thing you and I work together

36:16

on which is the labor files where you have the same thing now that you know part of what you’re revealing is the

36:23

inadequate decides not to cover it yes we yes I was in your I I gave evidence

36:29

didn’t I Al it was a voice in your film which was about um

36:34

the the truth about the Corin the Corbin anti-Semitism crisis yes I mean the labor FS was a series based on a leak of

36:42

the entire labor party server to to Al jazer and it was a reexamination of uh the Corbin years and

36:50

the the the failings of main of traditional media and covering the Corbin years my specific film for which

36:56

you gave an interview was uh offering an alternative perspective on the

37:01

anti-Semitism crisis above all drawing on on Jewish people most of the voices

37:06

in that film were Jewish people who who supported Israel and crucially don’t support sorry Jewish people who

37:12

supported Corbin and and crucially who don’t support Israel which is what

37:18

actually turned out to be the key deter and also Palestinian voices which just never got found their way into the

37:23

debate at all yeah and once again I I felt that a lot of what was disclosed in your

37:32

film is just ignored by and it does upset me you know I kind of when I went

37:39

into the British journalism I believed we were our job was to be fearless and

37:45

tell difficult truths and to tell the truth as best as we could get at it and

37:52

those the the the the the your film about October the 7th and then your film

37:57

earlier about the labor file suggest that is quite the opposite that the this media has an aversion to difficult

38:05

truths and will either ignore it or seek to discredit it or we’re talking about

38:10

very you know the great media organizations of our age too like the BBC or the mainstream broadsheet

38:17

newspapers in our country and so on it’s interesting isn’t it you’re a conservative I’m not but I’m you know

38:22

I’m not I’m not particularly Lefty and and and I think you know neither of us

38:28

are people who are predisposed to think that there’s a great conspiracy of the media to to deceive people and but I

38:33

think the motivation of yourself and me in in looking at the Corbin years and and and looking at this story is just a

38:40

frustration with how bad the journalism is it’s just terrible

38:46

journalism it’s I think you used a phrase earlier on about it’s her mentality isn’t it there is a h

38:51

mentality and then there’s also just a a basic conceptual problem with Israel I

38:58

mean when you when you went back to the Corbin thing basically they redefined anti Zionism as anti-Semitism I mean it

39:03

was fairly simple and once you’ve done that of course you saw anti-semites everywhere because a lot of you

39:09

know people who who take the view of Amnesty International Human Rights Watch and the Israeli human rights

39:15

organization bet selum that Israel is is an aparte state if you take that for you

39:21

you’re you’re going to be hostile to Zionism and if you have redefined hostility to Zionism as anti semitism

39:27

yes of course you’re going to find anti-sites everywhere the other thing actually is that I think something has

39:33

changed in our national discourse if you go back 20 to 30 years

39:39

there was a there was an appetite for difficult films which would reframe

39:44

events and now it’s all there’s an appetite for films which or reporting

39:51

which simply amplifies the existing yes people seem to like to be very nervous of something which challenges is the

39:57

prevailing narrative don’t they it’s it’s quite strange um which is one reason why the

40:04

world needs to watch my film to watch October the 7th and to read I would’ say

40:10

Middle East eye and the other uh Outlets which you mentioned mention them again the ones yes I me the ones that I’ve

40:16

relied on heavily particularly in or you know the ones who alongside us were

40:22

re-exploring the sexual violence issue it’s The Intercept did really excellent work yes magazine I’m not quite sure who

40:29

they are actually but they produced a very long very good piece Mondo Vis gry

40:35

Zone and electronic inada haret which is a leftwing Israeli newspaper did some

40:40

good stuff as well and um it’s been really fascinating

40:46

telling that this conversation not just telling us only about October the 7th

40:52

harrowing there that information is but also about the wider media coverage of

40:57

of of what has gone on ever since thank you very much thank

41:09

you

oooooo