Gaza versus Israel: irtenbiderantz (5)

(Michael Hudson-en bidetik)

… the only way of stopping what’s happening in Gaza happening in the rest of the world is to create an alternative to the United Nations, an alternative to the World Bank, to the IMF, an alternative to all the organizations that the United States has controlled to turn the whole rest of the world into Gaza, …

Sorry, gauzak zuzentzen…

Noski, gure familia Gernikan egon zen, Gernika eta Palestina izeneko ekitaldian.

Gernika- Palestina (Gernika-Palestine)

Gernikakoa sarraskia izan zen, argi!

Baina Gernika baino lehen Durango ere bonbardatua izan zen…

Gernika gehiago ezagutzen da historian…

Eta Palestina eta Gernika parekatu nahi izan da, nik neuk ere.

Baina gertaera asko jakin eta gero, oraintsu, Michael Hudson-en lekukotasun intelektuala ezagutu ondoren, esango nuke Palestina, eta bereziki Gaza, Vietnan berria dela: ikus Gaza versus Israel: irtenbiderantz

Hortxe dago parekotasun zuzena. Viertnam-en erabilitako ‘metodoa’ Palestinan berrerabili dute

Argi gera bedi!

Segida:

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-SQuxleYtI

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

and you’re watching and listening to the electronic inata live stream I’m Nora baros fredman coming up we’ll have an

0:06

interview with physician Ben Thompson and we’ll get a full update from John Elmer on the latest military

0:11

developments in Gaza but first Ali please introduce our first

0:17

guest thanks so much Norah uh it was so difficult to listen to a lot of that

0:22

news but thank you for that very thorough summary um I’m really delighted to

0:28

introduce Elan he’s a professor of history at the University of exitor in the UK and

0:35

director of the European Center for Palestine studies many of you will know that Elan

0:40

gained Renown as one of the uh new historians a group of Israeli Scholars

0:46

who in the 1980s shattered long-standing Zionist lies about the founding of Israel and

0:53

corroborated what Palestinians had been saying all along about the ethnic

0:58

cleansing and massacres that they survived um during the neba in

1:05

1948 he’s the author of many many books far too many to mention here but two of

1:12

them are a a history of modern Palestine one land two peoples and the ethnic

1:18

cleansing of Palestine Elan is also a regular contributor to the electronic

1:25

intifada he is of course a distinguished scholar but he’s also been a prominent

1:31

prominent and longtime Advocate and voice for the liberation of Palestine

1:37

from Zionism and I hope I can also say that uh I consider Elan to be a very

1:44

dear friend as well welcome Elan hello Ali and everyone it’s a great

1:51

uh pleasure and honor to be in the live stream with electronic intifa and thank you for your kind introduction thank you

1:59

Elan first let me just ask you how you’re doing we’re all now it’s more

2:04

than five months of this genocide almost six and uh I just want to ask you how

2:11

you’re doing it’s very difficult uh I I find it

2:16

difficult to concentrate on my regular work I find it difficult to sleep um I’m

2:23

fully aware of what goes on it’s heartbreaking uh it’s infuriate

2:30

infuriating and all one can do is double or triple our efforts first of all to

2:35

stop the genocide but continue also the long strategic aim of liberating uh

2:42

Palestine so uh personally of course all of us are preoccupied with this we are

2:49

not suffering as the people of Gaza do uh but I’m I’m definitely feel the pain

2:54

and um this is for me and I’m 70 years old this year is the worst period I

3:02

experienced personally uh in the history of modern

3:07

Palestine I know that we all all feel very similar um Elan we’re going to

3:14

discuss a lot of the the issues you raised but first I I want to remind you

3:20

I’m sure you haven’t forgotten that in 2006 you wrote for the electronic in

3:26

father and I quote a genocide is taking place in Gaza you described this uh

3:32

later as an incremental genocide but 18 years ago you wrote these words nothing

3:40

apart from pressure in the form of sanctions boycott and divestment will stop the murdering of innocent civilians

3:47

in the Gaza Strip there is nothing we here in Israel can do against it Brave

3:53

Pilots refuse to take part in the operations two journalists out of 150 do

3:59

not cease to write about it but this is it in the name of the Holocaust memory

4:05

let us hope the world will not allow the genocide in Gaza uh to continue you

4:11

wrote that in 2006 clearly there is nothing incremental about the genocide today

4:19

given your clarity about isra where Israel was headed back then are you

4:25

surprised by the savagery and brutality that Israel is perpet perating

4:31

today I must say that although I did expect a very brutal and ruthless

4:38

Israeli uh uh reaction to uh the uh operation of the Hamas on October the 7s

4:47

I did not foresee them such a magnitude of inhumanity and such a level of

4:54

criminality and de humanization as Israel has uh inflicted on on the people

5:00

of Gaza I mean I did anticipate a very ruthless and violent reaction but I must

5:07

say that this is beyond anything I I I could imagine and I think you’re

5:13

absolutely right whereas I think the years of Siege were incremental genocide

5:19

in the sense of creating conditions which were uninhabitable uh uh for people in Gaza

5:26

this is a genocide that is taking place in front of our eyes on a daily basis

5:32

there nothing incremental about it and it’s um really a vious

5:39

intentional attempt to uh use the 7th of October as a pretext to deal with what

5:46

Israel has been unable to deal with uh which is the presence of nearly two

5:52

million Palestinians uh in this part of historical Palestine and they seem to

5:58

think that they have now an historical opportunity and there is no moral

6:03

inhibition uh uh in implementing the idea of removing Gaza or you know wiping

6:11

out or raising Gaza uh the strip not as a city the strip as a whole from the map

6:17

of Palestine Elan um you have a unique

6:23

perspective as an Israeli who’s completely rejected Zionism and yet Israel is the society you grew up in

6:30

um tell us about what you see happening inside uh Israel 48 today what are the

6:37

political and social realities that have brought us to this point where seemingly an entire Society is United around the

6:44

goal of the extermination of a people they’ve already for 80 years a century

6:50

subjected to dispossession occupation apartheid and persecution you know uh uh in in

6:58

1999 I wrote an article for the Journal of Palestine studies examining the

7:03

Israeli educational system cultural system and political system and I argued

7:09

in that article in 1999 that the next Generations of Israelis who will go

7:15

through the official Israeli educational system through the socialization in the Army uh through the

7:23

the media indoctrination would become even worse than the early Zionist settlers become a

7:30

group of supremacist racist uh uh group of people uh that uh would uh inflict uh

7:38

disasters not only on historical Palestine but also in the area around

7:44

Palestine I’m afraid I was totally correct in this assessment and this was

7:50

based on uh you know analyzing the content uh of the textbook the the

7:56

curricula and the basic messages that young Israeli Jews were getting through

8:02

the various socialization systems uh in Israel so what we see now namely the

8:08

fact that more than 97% of the Israelis support the genocide in Gaza is not

8:15

surprising unfortunately uh it’s a society that is used to dehumanize the Palestinians uh

8:23

ever since it set foot in Palestine in the late 19th century in particular when

8:30

its leaders committed the ethnic cleansing of 1948 you cannot massively kill PE kill

8:37

kill people you cannot be totally indifferent to the death of babies for

8:43

babies operated without anesthetics for to Children burying children and for

8:49

your own Army committing one war Crime After the other unless you totally dehumanize the victims of these kinds of

8:57

policies and and de humanization doesn’t doesn’t come easily to people contrary to what people think you need to work on

9:03

it you need to socialize people you need to indoctrinate them to such a level but

9:09

but this is a fact now and the fact is that of course there are Israeli individuals who are not like that thank

9:15

God uh there are not all of them like that but the vast majority are and this

9:21

includes uh the the soldiers in the Gaza Strip the generals the the the um you

9:28

know the pundits who command in the Israeli media about the actions not to mention of course the political leaders

9:35

uh and therefore we come back to the point we already made I made before that

9:41

don’t expect for to for a change within Israel to ur in order if you are wishing

9:48

like all of us should wish for these terrible crimes against the Palestinians to seize if you really want to stop

9:55

genocide and and let’s not forget the killing of 400 people in the West Bank

10:01

uh if you really want to stop these policies now and those that Israel is planning in the future the only way is a

10:08

pressure from the outside there are moments in history where you cannot rely on a rogue state to change from within

10:15

and it has to be pressured to change and and there are the means of doing it as

10:20

we have seen in the case of apar South Africa and similar cases in

10:26

history we’re we’re definitely going to talk about that but we want to take

10:31

advantage of your deep knowledge and scholarship and uh go back to some more

10:37

historical context um some 80% of the population in

10:44

Gaza are refugees from cities towns and Villages that are now part of Israel the

10:50

1948 areas um including the lands where some of the kotes that were raided on

10:58

the 7th of o October have been built um talk to us about the history of the

11:04

so-called Gaza envelope of the people in Gaza and what Israel’s policy towards

11:10

them H have has been yes I think it’s a very important

11:15

Point Ali because people may may think that there always was a Gaza Strip

11:21

before 1948 there was no Gaza Strip there was a town called Gaza and in in

11:27

in small small large villages around it on the road the Via Maris the main road

11:34

on the on the Mediterranean between Alexandria in Egypt and Alexandretta in

11:39

Turkey it was a very pastoral Place uh and very cosmopolitical because so many

11:46

people were using the road and going through Gaza it had the all three religions were uh uh represented in the

11:54

in the town of Gaza the the Muslims the Christians and the Jews and and it was quite a a a a a beautiful spot in

12:03

historical Palestine when Israel began its ethnic cleansing it was trying to

12:09

massively move people outside the borders of what became the state of Israel so people were moved Palestinians

12:17

were moved to the north to Lebanon and Syria and to the east uh to Jordan

12:23

however the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were removed and pushed by force from the Center and south of

12:30

Palestine uh were were directed towards Egypt but Egypt did not was unwilling to

12:36

accept the Palestinian refugees so the Israeli leaders decided to concede in

12:42

adverted commas 2% of Palestine although they had the power to to to occupy it

12:48

and create this rectangle that became the strip as a receptor for all these

12:54

hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that they have expelled from the central

12:59

south of Palestine now the last wave of expulsion was exactly from those uh

13:05

villages on which on Whose ruins some of the settlements that were attacked on the 7th of October were built we have in

13:13

the Israeli archive a a document from the 25th of November 1948 called order

13:21

number 40 which is sent from the Central Command to the commanders in the area

13:26

that today would be called the area around Gaza and it lists 11 Villages and

13:31

the order is to burn them and expel the people from them to Gaza these V on the

13:38

ruins of these Villages the settlements were built so what you have in Gaza is a

13:44

second and a third generation of people who were not just removed forcefully

13:50

from the rest of Palestine but also people who are direct descendants of the

13:55

people who were expelled from the villages on which the Kim and and

14:02

development towns were built around the present Gaza Strip and also Elan talk

14:08

about uh and and by the way uh a couple of weeks ago we spoke about a story I’d

14:16

written with David Sheen which focused on uh I think it was kibutz near o which

14:22

is one of several uh kibot is built on the land of Al Palestinian Community

14:30

which was largely um the home of uh members of the Abus family including

14:37

Salman abos who has written himself about what he witnessed in 1948 as a as

14:44

a child and the land of um al- and the Abus family is now uh where several of

14:53

these kotses sit um talk to us also about the city of al- majda asalan which

15:00

is now ashalon because I think many people know that um most of the

15:07

Palestinians were expelled in 1948 starting in 1947 in

15:13

1948 but the expulsions did not stop after 1948 after the establishment of

15:20

the of the state of Israel is is that correct absolutely correct and he was

15:27

not out of his strategic decision because of technical issues that had to

15:32

do with some problem of coordination in the Israeli Army the thousands of people who who lived in Maj asalan were not

15:41

expelled in 1948 and they were instead uh uh

15:46

enclaved in a a an area which the Israeli military Governors themselves

15:53

called the ghetto and and in the ghetto in Majel asalan in the ghetto most of

15:59

the population of Majel asalan lived between 1948 until 1950 and while they

16:06

were living in those enclaves uh uh the the Israeli Jewish city of Ashkelon was

16:13

built around them in 1950 uh it was this the Israeli Army

16:21

decided to uh was rather a political decision by by the government led by

16:26

David benuron that this is not a very healthy situation for the new immigrants

16:32

who were sent to ashalon uh many of them coming from Arab countries and there was

16:38

always a worry that uh you know the Arab Jews and the Palestinians might find a

16:43

common uh conversation a common common basis for a dialogue and so on so it was

16:51

decided to forcefully add them to the people who were already refugees in the Gaza Strip

16:58

and and because this is 1950 and there’s already new reporters Israeli reporters

17:04

and other reporters we have quite an extensive documentation on the very

17:10

process of the expulsion namely the fact that people were shot above their heads to make sure that they leave uh and uh I

17:19

ironically Israel was expelling thousands of people who were regarded as

17:25

citizens of Israel according to the con the the independence Declaration of the

17:31

state of Israel boasting equality for everyone and uh the only reason that

17:37

they were expelled was that they were Palestinians and and and that is important and and as you rightly say

17:44

this did not only happen in asalan in MJ asalan between 1948 and 1967 and

17:51

especially in the first 10 years of Israel’s statehood dozens of Palestinians Villages were empted by by

17:59

force uh by the Israeli Army on the borders with Lebanon uh Jordan and

18:04

Jordan and expelled to the other side of of of the

18:10

Border you mentioned Elan that uh many of the people that Israel moved into the

18:15

former lands and homes of the Palestinians around what is now the Gaza

18:21

Strip were Arab Jews talk about that why did they send Arab Jews to to those

18:28

areas and what role did Arab Jews play in the establishment of

18:33

Israel yeah um Israel I mean the zanis movement original impulse was to create

18:41

a European Jewish State on the ruins of Palestine and until 1948 zanis

18:47

leadership showed very little interest in the Jewish communities in the Arab world uh for two reasons one these

18:55

communities did not suffer from anti-Semitism and therefore there was no impulse in those communities compared to

19:01

the communities in Central and Eastern Europe in particular to leave a place where they lived for hundreds and in the

19:08

case of Iraq thousands of years so that’s one reason that it was not easy

19:15

to induce them anyway to to come and secondly until 1948 they were regarded

19:20

as Arabs and therefore there was no Wish by the European Zionist leadership to to

19:27

arabize the the Zionist project so to speak however after the Holocaust and

19:32

the loss of 6 million Jews in Europe and the fact that a lot of Jewish survivors from the Holocaust did not choose Israel

19:39

as the destiny uh destination I’m sorry and and prefer to go to the to England

19:45

the United States or even go back to some of the European countries from which they originally came uh there was

19:51

a demographic need or Israel wanted a demographic injunction uh uh to increase

19:57

the number of Jews uh in Israel and there in after 1948 Israel began a

20:03

massive campaign to try and persuade uh the Jews from Arab countries to come to

20:08

Israel um they they use all kinds of methods uh different ones I we don’t

20:15

have time and maybe one day we can have a more a deeper conversation about it but I will just give two examples to

20:21

show how how different communities had to be approached differently by Israel uh in Yemen where the the community was

20:28

was far more religious they they spread the ideas and and lied to the Jews of Yemen that Israel is a very Theocratic

20:36

religious place where you know Jews can practice Judaism which of course was not

20:41

the case in 1948 and in Iraq they planted bombs in Iraqi synagogues in

20:47

order to persuade the Jews to come to Israel however after they all came about

20:52

1 million of them they were still regarded by the Zionist leadership as Arabs so they had to be de arabize and

21:00

there was several methods that were used to De arabize them one was to locate

21:05

them on the geographical uh um margins of the state near the boundaries with the Arab states

21:12

where it was very clear that these were very active borders in terms of frictions and and clashes and and that

21:19

would the Hope was that it would increase their animosity towards the Arabs uh in general uh another uh way of

21:27

doing it was to force them to change their names to be to to be totally alien

21:33

to their roots and language uh and so on unfortunately even without that

21:39

indoctrination many and especially this is particularly true about the North African Jews they they felt that the

21:47

best way to be initiated or to be accepted as equals in the Israeli

21:53

European Jewish Society was to show animosity and hatred towards the Arabs

21:59

in general and towards the Palestinians in particular and that is why the right-wing parties in Israel the more

22:05

fascist parties and the more extreme ones uh can rely on especially North

22:10

African Jews to provide with them the Electoral force in national elections so

22:18

uh they were used they are vict as Ella Shad rightly says they’re also victims

22:23

of Zionism however as can happen in societies they um in instead of

22:29

directing their anger and their outrage towards the people who really victimized

22:35

them they thought that it’s easier to direct it towards the Palestinians who

22:40

had nothing to do with their suffering with their upro OT Nets and and a lack

22:46

of equality within the Israeli Jewish Society Elan uh I want to talk a little

22:53

bit more about the kind of strategic uh location of these kibuts in uh the

23:01

so-called Gaza envelope area and how the Israeli state has use these uh Colonial

23:09

settlements um as kind of you know ramparts for um uh you know military uh

23:16

surveillance of the Gaza Strip can you talk a little bit about the the the strategy of uh of Israeli policy of of

23:25

placing these uh you know these seemingly innocuous you know

23:31

Farmland um uh you know sort of they were they were branded as like a

23:36

socialist Utopia these these kutas um but what what uh intention was there in

23:45

in building them um so close to what’s now the Gaza Strip well this is typical

23:52

of settler Colonial movements uh uh the the the uh the settler Colonial project

24:00

is is is a structure it never stops and it has to occupy a land that belongs to

24:07

indigenous people and occupy it again and again because there’s always a a risk that the indigenous people would

24:13

not sit peacefully when they are dispossessed from their the land so what

24:18

happens is you totally militarize the Civil space so um uh you uh any

24:26

settlement especially on the border line between areas that have already been

24:31

colonized and areas that haven’t been yet colonized those who sit on the

24:36

border on the one hand there are civilians and they lead Civic life but on the other hand they are also soldiers

24:43

they are also military and therefore they they carry guns and and they are functioning as as

24:51

outposts uh in a military sense uh towards the the so-called enemy so I I

24:58

think that they play a very important role in the colonization first of all historically

25:05

they played a very important role in the colonization uh uh and of course they

25:11

play a contemporary role in policing the

25:16

millions of Palestinians in between the River Jordan and the meder Mediterranean there are millions of Palestinians and

25:24

Israel polies them in different ways it uses the Jewish settlements in the West

25:29

Bank in a similar way uh to be part of the policing of the

25:36

oppressive metrix of power alongside military bases alongside the Secret

25:43

Service uh operation and unfortunately also with collaboration with the

25:49

Palestinian Authority in in some places and U inside Israel they’re using the

25:55

the the the Jewish settlements in the Galilee and in the knab in a very similar way so and they used they tried

26:02

to do it in Gaza as well until 2005 but because Gaza doesn’t mean much

26:08

biblically they couldn’t get a large number of Jews to settle in Gaza itself and that’s when Chiron said it’s much

26:14

better to take them out and create this huge prison called Gaza and attack it

26:19

from the outside without worrying of the fate of the settlers in the inside in if

26:26

you think about it the Hamas in many ways enabled us to go back to that

26:31

situation where uh uh this pharmaceutical Israeli idea that Gaza

26:37

can be totally disassociated from the isra from Israel and only be attacked

26:43

without any danger uh uh to Israel the Hamas always challenged that first with

26:50

the Hamas with the um with the Rockets uh and now with this

26:56

particular operation so I think yes it’s it’s it’s a kind of

27:01

of a reality where you know probably best describe is Israel being an army

27:07

with a state rather than a state with an army

27:14

um Elan we could talk about uh you know the

27:21

the history and the context is so important to understanding the present day because um you know Israel and its

27:28

supporters want us to believe history started on October 7th and that’s always

27:34

you know history starts from whatever moment is most suitable uh to those powerful and to the

27:42

oppressors but you were so preent uh all those years ago when you wrote

27:49

about genocide in Gaza and it wasn’t a word that anyone used lightly about

27:55

Israel’s actions it was almost unimaginable at that time to think that

28:04

the international court of justice could be considering a case very seriously as

28:09

to whether Israel is perpetrating genocide and they’ve already found that uh it is a plausible case and ordered

28:17

Israel to stop all genocidal acts which of course Israel hasn’t

28:23

done I want to ask you thinking about the situation in

28:30

Israel where do you see things heading what will it take to stop this genocide

28:35

what can Pierce this uh fanaticism of of this Israeli

28:43

population you alluded to that earlier but I want you to explore that uh

28:50

more yes well I’m afraid that um we we

28:55

have to as painful as it is distinguish between the very near future

29:02

and the more distant future I’m afraid that uh in the near future although it

29:09

seems that Israel is acting in such a way that we begin to see actions like

29:15

the Canadian government’s decision to stop arm oh suspend arm supplies to

29:21

Israel and so on that uh you know in terms of the BDS Movement we are beginning to see the S the sanctions and

29:28

not just the boycott and the investment but as we can notice first of all it’s incremental it’s peace meal uh and uh we

29:38

we don’t even know whether it’s really happening not that I’m underestimating the

29:43

symbolic force of that so I think it might have an

29:49

accumulative uh impact on Israel but knowing the Israeli Society uh it would

29:54

have to be far more severe far far more direct far more transparent that this is

30:02

really happening uh and it has to do with uh the treatment of Israeli uh

30:08

sports teams in the world uh music uh arm sales and and so on and you know

30:16

where whereas maybe the global South would move a bit quicker I think towards that kind of action I’m afraid that the

30:24

global Norse would take far more time not to mention the United States and God knows what the American elections would

30:31

mean for that kind of action so I I’m afraid if I’m very honest and if I’m C

30:37

bitterly honest I I I’m I I cannot see a a an effective International action

30:46

within a year or year and a half I can see it later on I can see it later on

30:52

but by the way I don’t want to to sound as if I would raise my hands and say there’s nothing we can because of that

30:59

no I’m I’m just saying that if uh we cannot be observers and and think that

31:04

this is a a dynamics that happen by themselves it means every every one of us who is involved in this should double

31:11

and triple their efforts and and not kind of take for granted that you know

31:17

the icj and later the ICC or other organization are strong enough at this

31:23

moment in time to to force Israel there’s also another problem with Israel

31:28

it can seem to accept certain things and then it does them incrementally does

31:33

them uh uh you know in in a different way but from the Palestinians victim’s

31:39

point of view it’s the same kind of thing so I don’t have I wish I had a a a

31:45

successful formula for the next year on so I I I I I see that the resistance

31:51

continues I think that we should pay attention to a possible more severe

31:56

resistance in the West Bank we don’t yet know what will happen in the North of Israel or Palestine but I think we have

32:04

to take into account that you do not stop such a criminal act in one act in

32:10

one day uh and and it’s terrible to say because I know what it means on a daily

32:16

basis but I want to be brutally realistic here and not you know not not promise something that isn’t but if I

32:22

may I do really believe and and this I say as a scholar not just as an activist

32:28

I really see and I said it before and I’m going to say it again in every stage

32:33

I as a scholar I can see clear indications the designer’s project is

32:39

entering its last phase it’s the beginning of the end of this project it’s not sustainable it’s not

32:45

sustainable from the the from looking at it from the inside the Jewish Society

32:51

it’s imploding from the inside there is no cement that holds the various groups

32:57

and Israel together uh it’s not sustainable because I think Young Jews all over the world would stop equating

33:05

Zionism with Judaism it’s not sustainable because the Palestinian younger generation have a much better

33:12

vision and ideas of how to push forward The Liberation struggle and it’s not s

33:18

sustainable because of Israel’s economic problems and and the possibilities of changes in the region and definitely in

33:25

the way the International Community treats Israel as a State however these processes will take more time but they

33:33

will happen so there is a kind of a dawn after this dark night but I would be

33:38

irresponsible if I would say that I know exactly how to to end this night

33:44

terrible period today but I do want to beseech anyone who’s listening to us um

33:51

it’s working in a sense that you cannot see the full picture but it works if if

33:57

it’s Relentless if it doesn’t stop uh if if uh uh everything we are doing is is

34:05

done 247 as much as we can because I do think the more accumulative the impact

34:11

is the shorter the period uh in which Israel finally would be held to be

34:17

accountable and maybe begin to pay the price that a part that sou Africa paid

34:23

during the beginning of the sanctions when they started uh the Civil Society

34:28

actions of boycott and divestment are very important uh but I think that we need to find a way of moving as I said

34:36

between the B and D to the S I think that’s a very crucial idea and if I may

34:42

may add to this of course we’re still looking desperately at the Arab world

34:48

and the Muslim world to do much much more uh and they can they really can do

34:54

much more than they have done so far uh without going into the domestic issues

35:00

of the of their politics even with the current regimes that are there I don’t

35:06

think they have exhausted their possibilities of lending an effective hand to to the overall efforts in the

35:13

world to stop the genocide as soon as

35:18

possible so Elan you you said that um Israel is imploding in a way the

35:26

Zionist project is imploding what does that mean do do you think we can look

35:32

forward 10 20 years and say that Israel would still be there or Israel might be

35:37

gone I mean at what you know I know that nobody can put a date on it but where

35:43

does this process of implosion lead in in your view yeah I think what what what

35:50

what we can see quite clearly is a takeover of uh Israel by the more more

35:58

Theocratic more extreme uh group of Israelis whom I called in one of my last pieces uh the

36:06

state of Judea the state of the settlers it takes over the state of Israel uh I

36:11

mean both the state of Israel which is the more liberal Zionist side and the

36:17

Theocratic Messianic Jewish side the state of Judea both of them of course

36:23

believe in the aparted system and occupation and colonization of Palestine but they have different view of what the

36:30

Israeli Jewish Society should look from the inside and I think all those Israelis who still think that they can

36:36

uphold a part alongside a multi- cultural Society an open Society liberal

36:43

Society are losing uh very quickly their political power they already are absent

36:50

from the higher echelons of the Secret Service of the mosad of the army of the

36:56

political import and political junctures where policies are are are taking place

37:02

now this kind of Israel the Judea Israel if you want uh would be find it even

37:07

more and more difficult they don’t even believe it’s important to have international legitimacy but they would find it more more difficult to get this

37:15

legitimacy which means a lot of other people would leave would not want to stay uh regardless of the situation with

37:21

the Palestinians it’s just not the kind of place they want and if they have the money if they have the passport if they

37:28

have the the profession that can relocate them and their capitals outside they will do it so I can I can see a

37:34

drain of a certain group of Israelis who are the Elite uh and who pay 80% of the

37:40

Israeli taxes outside of Israel and and and so I think it’s it’s it’s a process

37:46

of collapse that I cannot exactly predict how it would look at the end of

37:52

the collapse but I can definitely point to the cracks in the building if you want and I getting wider and wider the

37:59

one thing I would just like to add is that when such a structure collapses or

38:05

even weakens to to such a level it creates a void and if the Palestinian national

38:12

movement is not there to fill the void this is a chaos that can continue so

38:17

it’s not always an an assured formula for building something new unless there

38:23

is you know uh a preparedness for that kind of uh historical reality unfolding

38:31

but I I do believe that this is not it’s not sustainable it’s not working anymore

38:36

just do you see just to ask you do you see in terms of I I assume you you

38:43

closely observe the Israeli press and media and of course you you have still

38:48

connections to a country you are you were born in do you see Israelis talking

38:54

about this among themselves is this this you know it’s a common thing for people

39:01

to say oh you know a lot of Israelis have second passports which is true a lot don’t particularly the Arab Jews or

39:10

the the Jews from Arab countries uh are the least likely to have second

39:15

passports probably but Jews who have connections to North America Canada

39:21

Europe and so on do so do they talk about this is it already happening is

39:27

this this departure already uh happening what what can you tell us from your

39:32

close observations of um discussions within Israeli Society yeah first of all

39:39

I I should say that up to the 7th of October there was already clear indications of people relocating

39:46

themselves and their Capital outside of Israel not in huge number but in significant numbers in terms of the

39:52

quality of the capital that they had and the position that they had in in the Israeli economic Elite so this is a

39:58

process that began before the 7th of October in a way the sth of October stopped for a while in the name of you

40:06

know kind of instinctive Unity uh in reaction to the 7th of October but it is

40:11

resuming so it is happening I think that there are two kinds of uh conversations

40:18

in Israel uh uh that are taking place there’s one conver but both conversations have something in common

40:24

and the common thing is that it’s clear that the next 50 years is the only promise in the Horizon that Israeli

40:31

politicians and leader have for Israelis is continued Bloodshed and Wars this is

40:36

very clear and you hear it also from Israelis who support the war and

40:42

probably don’t have the passports to go out they they understand that Israel in

40:48

the next 50 years is a state that at best defeats if you want its enemies but

40:54

is all the time constantly a military Zone even if you know in a successful

41:00

scenario that you you you manage that uh the second con that’s that’s one

41:06

conversation what can we do this is our life some of them would buy into

41:11

netanyahu’s idea that this is a lot of Jews because of anti-Semitism and there’s nothing you can do I think there

41:18

is another conversation which says is it really the only way to live uh again I I

41:25

I would have loved to say that this has any anything to do with compassion towards the Palestinians realization of

41:31

the criminality towards the Palestinians it is not not yet who knows maybe this will come as well but for the time being

41:38

it’s just a a realistic uh view at a situation where

41:44

especially after the 7th of October you say to yourself so this is my life now

41:51

uh so if I’m if I love military life if I live if and some people do and I love

41:57

Wars and I love you know if if I like that kind of of existence yes maybe I’m

42:02

in the right place you know like Sparta in in ancient times but if if at all

42:08

there is a modicum of desire in me to have what one should

42:14

call maybe normal life this is not the place to be in again I I even detach it

42:21

from the Palestinians it’s it’s almost like saying I am I’ve built the state to

42:27

be a safe haven for Jews all over the world and it is the most dangerous place

42:33

for Jews to be in right now and that’s a contradiction you don’t easily gloss

42:38

over yeah and the numbers are very clear so this is not something you fabricate

42:44

you can easily they know it they know it it’s not very safe to be an Israeli Jew

42:49

it’s the only place where it’s not really safe they are exaggerating anti-Semitism elsewhere Jews are not

42:56

killed are not being attacked in apart from very small individual numbers

43:03

uh because they are part of an alien oppressive colonialist presence in the

43:09

midst of the Arab world they have created insecurity for them which unfortunately also radiates and projects

43:15

on some Jewish communities in the world as well and yet the Biden in well Biden himself has said that there is no safe

43:23

place but Israel for Jews all over the world I mean it’s well Biden has said so many things he said he’s the Zionist

43:31

president like we can tell him that the world Zionist Congress is looking for a new president um right in yeah yeah yeah

43:39

I mean what what American politicians have said since the 7th of October

43:44

especially Secretary of State and the president really I mean this is beyond

43:50

uh beyond anything we we’re used to you know I just finished a book which will come out in the end of the month called

43:57

lobbying for Zionism on two sides of the Atlantic uh examining the history of

44:03

lobbying for Zionism both in Britain and United States and there were such

44:08

moments of pathetic Expressions by American leaders but I think nothing

44:14

comes close to uh what we’ve heard from American leadership since the 7th of

44:20

October especially in the first two months I I wanted to quickly ask you

44:26

about I mean you know you were talking about um uh Israelis leaving and and and you know

44:34

escaping uh what they don’t what what you know this fantasy that was never um

44:41

realized obviously as as a settler Colony um but what what are what do you

44:48

think are the prospects of the settlers um you know who have been evacuated from

44:54

the kutes around Gaza and and also in the north of historic Palestine do you

45:00

think they’ll ever go back like where do you think the the maps will be redrawn

45:05

once once this is once this is over yeah it’s very difficult to say I mean some

45:11

of the people in the envelope area are coming from development towns uh so they

45:19

don’t have that many options to live elsewhere I think they will return uh the members of the kbim I think some of

45:25

them will not the north is a big question uh uh as far as they are

45:30

concerned unless Israel occupies south of Lebanon they not going back so

45:36

Israeli government has really a huge challenge there it just adds to the other challenges but you have to

45:43

remember that the main problem is not so much how the map would look like I think there’s a much more fundamental problem

45:49

for Israel the government is not functioning there’s no government doesn’t function the only uh ER Services

45:58

people the only effective service Israeli Jews receive are from the Civil

46:04

Society I mean it is a civil society that is you know experienced in

46:09

situations of war and emergencies and therefore it it reacts and was able to

46:14

provide uh uh you know food uh housing and so on which the government should

46:21

have done uh but the government is not functioning it’s it’s uh it has a lot to

46:26

do with the person ality of the Prime Minister but not only but not only uh um

46:32

so I think that uh no less important is not only the question whether they will

46:37

return or not whether Israel would return to what it used to be at least an

46:43

effective State at least as far as its Jewish citizens were concerned we are now nearly half a year since the C of

46:50

October and there’s no indication for it uh and we know how Israeli electoral uh

46:57

system works with the coalition government and so on so so even if there

47:02

is a group of politician let’s say that are a bit more competent and would

47:07

enable to reignite or reactivate the the state uh systems and

47:13

Ministries they would rely in a coalition of people who are either

47:19

Messianic or or are totally incompetent uh and therefore it all adds to this

47:26

picture which I I think that quite a few Israeli Jews would agree with me not

47:33

many but more than ever before that this is not working this is not working I

47:38

mean I would like to explain to them that it’s not working because originally you cannot impose yourself on a

47:45

different country and take it over and and be an alien in an area but they they

47:50

haven’t reach that level of analysis but but they’re just looking at the reality and it’s not working and they can’t see

47:57

where the alternative for it will come um the total Reliance on the United

48:03

States is suddenly hit them hit them in the face I mean the biggest worry in Israel is now is from every time

48:10

Netanyahu opens his mouth criticizing Biden many Israelis fear uh that he

48:18

doesn’t realize that without the United States militarily and economically

48:23

Israel is not sustainable uh I I don’t think we ever were in that situation uh and uh uh if

48:32

we if history uh teaches as anything uh these kinds of processes begin very slow

48:40

but then they accumulate speed and and and and then they become very dramatic

48:46

and Monumental as happened in the Soviet Union uh in South Africa and other

48:51

places sou Vietnam around the world it’s really a very Far Cry Land from the

48:58

image of Israel that I remember growing up with in the 1980s which was even if

49:04

we saw Israel as um as a usurper State

49:09

as a as an aggressor as an occupier um there was a certain sense

49:16

that Israel was uh strong

49:21

competent um that even if it had a lot of support from the United States that

49:26

it was very capable um and that uh you know that

49:34

that uh Israel could do anything um and it’s remarkable how totally that has

49:42

unraveled and Israel looks as dysfunctional as any state in the region

49:49

that you could point to or any state in the world for that matter and the image

49:55

of the um Brave courageous capable Israeli soldier has

50:02

uh has completely collapsed uh into these

50:08

uh not to say the brutality wasn’t there of course it was as your own work has has documented the massacres and the

50:15

brutality from the very beginning but nonetheless there was this idea of

50:21

the um capable and brave Israeli soldier you know the the ra it inbi the the the

50:28

heroism and so on the M the long arm of the Mad which could reach anyone

50:34

anywhere in the world at any time now they look like thuggish brutal clowns

50:41

and they don’t scare anyone they they they horrify and disgust but they don’t

50:46

Inspire awe and uh fear in the way that uh that they did do Israelis have a

50:55

sense of this change do they understand do they see this change in their image and and understand

51:02

it it’s interesting I think it’s kind of a mixed picture on the one hand they say

51:08

to themselves and I read it many and talked with people there uh saying imagine what would have happened if his

51:15

balah would have coordinated with Hamas a joint attack on Israel on the service of October how would Israel would have

51:22

fared and we’re still talking about two Guerilla armies not two conven

51:27

armies you know armies without aeroplanes tanks and and proper artillery and and um so so on the one

51:35

hand there is this idea that Israel is not Invincible that it doesn’t function

51:42

on the other hand they’re trying to create a new story of heroism uh uh under the fog that we all

51:49

don’t know exactly what happened on the 7th of October so they begin to build

51:55

these stories of heroism on the day itself and of course heroism in

52:01

Gaza and so on so they’re trying to to rebuild this image of uh uh a heroic uh

52:10

uh competent Army I don’t think it it sticks I don’t think it holds water so I

52:16

think they are aware of it um again it’s it’s the kind of uh thing that you have

52:22

to remember that it’s uh this reality is being faced by people who generation

52:29

after generation were indoctrinated in a certain way uh it becomes kind of part

52:35

of their DNA if you want or mentality as they call it in Arabic AA that um anything like this uh is uh

52:47

due to anti-Semitism due to the fact that everybody hates us nothing to do with what we’re doing and so on it may still

52:55

work with some Israeli Jews this idea that you know uh this is um a terrible

53:02

period uh we have nothing to do with it it’s done to us because that’s the lot

53:07

of Jews throughout history I think that

53:12

some of them begin to doubt whether this is effective I remember people were

53:18

totally surprised when I talked to audiences I remember in Australia and other places they really don’t believe

53:24

it but recently the BBC even admitted this is most of the Israelis consume

53:31

news only from the Israeli media they really have not seen one you

53:36

have to remember that they have not seen one picture from Gaza that tells you about the suffering of the people of

53:42

Gaza not one picture in the last six months and they I know that they can

53:48

have access to other alternative Media or even even you know

53:54

even the mainstream media in the West is enough to give you some indication but

54:00

they they don’t they don’t know and they don’t want to know and even if they know the humanization in such a level that it

54:06

doesn’t so it’s it’s a complex situation where um one of the things we should I’m

54:14

and I think it’s up to us the anti-zionist Jews who were born in Israel to work on this um and and this

54:22

should not trouble the Palestinians it’s not the Palestinian problem but I think it’s up to to us to tell them that there

54:27

is an alternative that there is an alternative it’s very difficult because they are so brutal now and but but there

54:34

are still millions of people and not all of them were born you know criminals and heartless and so on uh

54:42

uh there is an alternative um and and you know you you’ve written about the one state

54:49

solution I’ve written about the one state solution we we did not imagine a a

54:54

uden right State we didn’t say these states would have no Jews in them we just talked about a state of liberated

55:01

decolonized and based on equality um because you know I’m part of the one

55:08

state democratic initiative in Israel and the initial reaction was let’s not talk about it now you know it’s not the

55:14

time I’m not sure about it anymore at first I agreed because you know we all wanted to focus on how to stop the

55:21

genocide I still think that talking about a horizon which is different from

55:27

the one we’re seeing here is something that is worth talking about but um as we

55:32

said at the beginning of the conversation uh uh the process of

55:38

deprogramming Israeli Jews or waiting for them to wake up or understand maybe

55:44

with the distance of time and so on is not a precondition for the liberation of palese it’s yeah Elan that’s something I

55:53

would love to to hear about in the fure future as you make those points we’d love for you

56:00

to come back and talk about the reactions it’s so fascinating for us one

56:06

thing I’ll say when you talked about how Israelis only see Israeli media another

56:13

phenomenon I’ve noticed is it seems they think nobody else sees Israeli media

56:19

that uh that that what they say in Hebrew is like a private conversation

56:24

only among Israelis and that’s why it’s such a rich source for us a lot of the

56:30

reporting we do is simply translating what comes from isra media because they’re so much more honest with each

56:37

other uh that that uh you know they think no one else that that Hebrew is a

56:42

secret language no one else can can decipher it’s a terribly useful uh

56:48

source for us just um we just have a couple of minutes I I have one question

56:54

for you and and I think Nora has won um maybe since I’m speaking I I’ll go

57:01

first um Elan you were born in haa in

57:08

Palestine to uh German Jewish parents if I’m correct what would you say now what do

57:16

you say now to the German people and the leaders of Germany yeah yeah uh this is

57:23

a very important topic for me in one sentence almost like a sound bite

57:30

but I will explain it in two more sentences after that I would say the Germany was once on the wrong side of

57:36

history and I don’t know why it insists to be once more on the wrong side of history and what I mean by this of

57:43

course you understand what I mean by this but I would just just to make sure that everybody understands what I’m

57:48

talking about it I think that um the fact that the Germans think that they

57:54

absolve themselves from what has been done by the Nazi Germans in the second

58:01

world war by supporting unconditionally and without any inhibitions the

58:08

colonization of Palestine and the present genocide they are abusing the

58:13

Holocaust memory they are not uh uh um compensating for what they have done but

58:21

rather they are leaving it as an open wound rather than allow it to be healed

58:28

uh and the second point I I would say that I’m really surprised I speak German

58:33

so as as you say that Hebrew is not a secret language German is not a secret language to me and I cannot understand

58:41

how intelligent people educated people coming from a society that has a lot to

58:47

contribute and had contributed to civilization how these intellectuals and

58:54

educated people uh appear to be so stupid and uh uh and and superficial in

59:03

the way that they express themselves when it comes to the question of Israel in Palestine in general and especially

59:10

uh to the situation that unfolds in front of our eyes now it’s it’s quite

59:16

painful to see people parting the Israeli narrative uh either they know

59:24

that they are doing it on purp because they think it serves Germany or whatever

59:30

or they are really totally blinded and ignorant uh because of the way uh the

59:37

German intellectual Elite develop Vis A the question of Palestine but we should

59:44

say large sections of the young German Society in the Civil Society we should remember it demonstrate in the thousands

59:52

every week for Palestine young students and Young faculty members uh really uh

59:59

courageously courageously uh face a German academic establishment that

1:00:04

threatens to throw them out uh uh and and and suspend them and nonetheless

1:00:09

they continue uh to do this we have to remember that Germany has one of the largest Palestinian community in in the

1:00:17

west so so I I would not lose hope uh for the the German Society but the

1:00:23

present uh political establish and cultural intellectual establishment is

1:00:28

really it’s a shameful chapter uh in in in Germany Germany’s history uh that is

1:00:36

meant to compensate for for for another shameful uh chapter uh but is doing

1:00:42

exactly the opposite we just have uh literally a

1:00:47

minute left uh Elan but finally um what gives you hope these days in these very

1:00:53

dark um and Relentless times well I must you know I’m I I have

1:01:00

a center for Palestine studies in the University of exiter which has uh about

1:01:05

40 uh Palestinian postgraduates or people working on Palestine and through

1:01:10

them I’m I can see the networking to other young Palestinians and pro Palestinians around the world especially

1:01:17

the young people they give me a lot of hope they have a Clear Vision for the future there have a huge amount of

1:01:23

energy and levels of of commitment and I think that they have the power uh

1:01:29

uh to lead us into a different future uh and with the kind of processes I

1:01:35

described before in our conversation I really think that in the medium uh run

1:01:41

not a long run even uh we will see the beginning of a different kind of reality

1:01:46

the our greatest fear is for the next year two years and three years but if we

1:01:52

can somehow survive it and and do what we can to to tame it uh I think we are

1:01:59

into a much better uh uh uh chapter in the history of modern

1:02:07

Palestine Dr Yan Pape uh you are a legendary historian writer activist

1:02:13

scholar uh and friend and contributor to the electronic inata we are um very very

1:02:20

grateful for all the work that you have done over the decades and continue to do

1:02:26

um thank you so much for joining us today thank you thank you so much thank you Ali to have you again soon thank you

1:02:34

of course I would love to do that thank you very much thank you thank you thank

1:02:39

you incredible um thank you Ali for coordinating that interview just uh he’s

1:02:46

yeah I mean Elan is someone who as I said I consider a friend and I’ve known

1:02:53

for many many years and he was so far ahead of many

1:03:00

people on a lot of issues in terms of understanding explaining what Israel is

1:03:05

and what it would become and uh and he’s as he said to us he he’s

1:03:12

giving us brutal honesty when he says he doesn’t think things are going to improve in the short term but the fact

1:03:19

that somebody who had who is so rooted in the reality and the utter horror of

1:03:25

what we’re seeing still has hope uh for the future is is

1:03:30

something that uh is important something to hold close yeah absolutely thanks for

1:03:36

watching this video please subscribe to our YouTube channel hit like leave a

1:03:41

comment these engagements help us with the YouTube algorithm and it helps us to

1:03:47

get around Silicon Valley censorship as much as possible it does make a difference you can also support our

1:03:53

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1:04:04

you

oooooo

BUILDING A NEW WORLD ORDER The statement says that it is an “objective factor” that “the status and strength of emerging major countries and regions in the ‘Global South’ [are] continuously increasing”, and that “the trend of world multipolarity [is] accelerating”. This in turn “accelerates the redistribution of development potential, resources, and opportunities in a direction favorable to emerging markets and developing countries, promoting the democratization of international relations and international fairness and justice”.

They point out that “countries that adhere to hegemonism and power politics are contrary to this trend, attempting to replace and subvert the international order based on international law with a so-called ‘rules-based order'”.

Security-wise, the statement says that “both sides believe that the fate of the peoples of all countries is interconnected, and no country should seek its own security at the expense of others’ security. Both sides express concern about the current international and regional security challenges and point out that in the current geopolitical context, it is necessary to explore the establishment of a sustainable security system in the Eurasian space based on the principle of equal and indivisible security.”

They go on to say that China and Russia “will fully tap the potential of bilateral relations” in order to “promote the realization of an equal and orderly multipolar world and the democratization of international relations, and gather strength to build a just and reasonable multipolar world”.

As for the vision of this world order these

2 principles seem to be the foundational ones:

1) An order with no “neo-colonialism and hegemonism” of any kind: “All countries have the right to independently choose their development models and political, economic, and social systems based on their national conditions and people’s will, oppose interference in the internal affairs of sovereign countries, oppose unilateral sanctions and ‘long-arm jurisdiction’ without international law basis or UN Security Council authorization, and oppose drawing ideological lines. Both sides pointed out that neo-colonialism and hegemonism are completely contrary to the trend of the times, and called for equal dialogue, the development of partnerships, and the promotion of exchanges and mutual learning among civilizations.”

2) An order based on the UN Charter: “Both sides will continue to firmly defend the achievements of World War II and the post-war world order established by the UN Charter”

EXTREMELY STRONG CONDEMNATION OF THE US This condemnation starts with the paragraph highlighted above that “countries that adhere to hegemonism and power politics are contrary to [the trend towards a multipolar world order]”, and the statement also condemns the fact that these “countries” (i.e. mostly the US) are “attempting to replace and subvert the international order based on international law with a so-called ‘rules-based order'”.

They also write that “both sides call on relevant countries and organizations to stop taking confrontational policies and interfering in the internal affairs of other countries, undermining the existing security architecture, creating ‘small yards with high fences’ among countries, provoking regional tensions, and advocating for camp confrontation.”

They further say that “both sides oppose the hegemonic actions of the United States to change the balance of power in the Northeast Asia region by expanding its military presence and forming military blocs. The US, with its Cold War mentality and camp confrontation model, puts ‘small group’ security above regional security and stability, endangering the security of all countries in the region. The US should stop such actions.”

On top of that the statement speaks of “serious concern about the United States’ attempts to undermine strategic stability to maintain its absolute military superiority, including building a global missile defense system and deploying missile defense systems around the world and in space, strengthening the ability to disable the opponent’s military actions with precision non-nuclear weapons and ‘decapitation’ strikes, enhancing NATO‘s ‘nuclear sharing’ arrangements in Europe and providing ‘extended deterrence’ to specific allies, constructing infrastructure in the South Pacific Nuclear-Free Zone treaty member Australia that could be used to support US and UK nuclear forces, engaging in US-UK-Australia nuclear submarine cooperation, and implementing plans to deploy and provide land-based intermediate-range and short-range missiles to allies in the Asia-Pacific and Europe.”

The statement also condemns “the United States’ unconstructive and hostile ‘dual containment’ policy towards China and Russia”: “The United States’ actions of conducting joint exercises with its allies ostensibly aimed at China and Russia and taking steps to deploy land-based intermediate-range missiles in the Asia-Pacific region have raised serious concerns for both sides. The United States claims it will continue these practices with the ultimate goal of establishing routine missile deployments worldwide. Both sides strongly condemn these actions, which are extremely destabilizing to the region and pose a direct security threat to China and Russia, and will strengthen coordination and cooperation to respond to the United States’ unconstructive and hostile ‘dual containment’ policy towards China and Russia.”

On Asia-Pacific specifically they write that “both sides oppose the creation of exclusive and closed group structures in the Asia-Pacific region, especially military alliances targeting any third party. Both sides point out that the US “Indo-Pacific Strategy” and NATO’s attempts to take destructive actions in the Asia-Pacific region have negative impacts on the peace and stability of the region.”

They also “demand that the United States refrain from engaging in any biological military activities that threaten the security of other countries and regions” and they oppose the “use [of] outer space for armed confrontation and oppose the implementation of security policies and activities aimed at achieving military advantage and defining outer space as a ‘combat domain.'”

Lastly the statement condemns “the US and its allies’ deterrent actions in the military field, provoking confrontation with the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, and exacerbating tensions on the Korean Peninsula, potentially leading to armed conflict”, and asks that “the United States and NATO, as the responsible parties for the 20-year invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, should not attempt to deploy military facilities in Afghanistan and its surrounding areas again but should bear primary responsibility for Afghanistan’s current economic and livelihood difficulties, bear the main costs of Afghanistan’s reconstruction, and take all necessary measures to unfreeze Afghanistan’s national assets.”

ENORMOUS EXPANSION OF CHINA-RUSSIA COLLABORATION This will be my last point, the statement has an immense list – dozens and dozens of items – of expanded cooperation fields between both countries.

These are some of the most important ones:

– Military cooperation: “[both sides] will further deepen military mutual trust and cooperation, expand the scale of joint training activities, regularly organize joint maritime and air patrols, strengthen coordination and cooperation within bilateral and multilateral frameworks, and continuously improve the ability and level of jointly responding to risks and challenges.”

– More trade, mutual investments and help each other economic development: “continuously expand the scale of bilateral trade”, “continuously improve the level of investment cooperation between the two countries”, and “jointly develop advanced industries, strengthen technical and production cooperation, including in the civil aviation manufacturing industry, shipbuilding industry, automobile manufacturing industry, equipment manufacturing industry, electronics industry, metallurgical industry, iron ore mining industry, chemical industry, and forest industry”

– Cooperation on energy: “consolidate the strategic cooperation in energy between China and Russia and achieve high-level development, ensuring the economic and energy security of the two countries. Strive to ensure the stability and sustainability of the international energy market, and maintain the stability and resilience of the global energy industry chain and supply chain.” Also nuclear energy: “deepen cooperation in the field of civilian nuclear energy based on the experience of successful and ongoing projects, including thermonuclear fusion, fast neutron reactors, and closed nuclear fuel cycles”

– Promote each others’ currencies and financial infrastructure: “Increase the proportion of local currency in bilateral trade, financing, and other economic activities. Improve the financial infrastructure of the two countries, smooth the settlement channels between the two countries’ business entities, strengthen regulatory cooperation in the banking and insurance industries of China and Russia, promote the sound development of banks and insurance institutions established in each other’s countries, encourage two-way investment, and issue bonds in the financial markets of each other’s countries in accordance with market principles.”

– Deep education and scientific cooperation: “promote the expansion and improvement of quality in mutual study abroad programs, advance Chinese language teaching in Russia and Russian language teaching in China, encourage educational institutions to expand exchanges, cooperation in running schools, conduct high-level talent joint training and scientific research, support cooperation in basic research fields between universities, support activities of alliances of similar universities and high schools, and deepen cooperation in vocational and digital education”

– Cooperation in the media and shaping public opinions: “Strengthen media exchanges between the two countries, promote mutual visits at various levels, support pragmatic and professional dialogues, actively carry out high-quality content cooperation, deeply explore the cooperation potential of new media and new technologies in the field of mass media, objectively and comprehensively report major global events, and spread true information in the international public opinion field.”

– Cooperation within global institutions: “deepen bilateral cooperation [at] the UN General Assembly and the Security Council”, “supporting the role of the World Health Organization”, “strengthen cooperation within the WTO framework”, “cooperation within the framework of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO)”, “uphold the BRICS spirit, enhance the BRICS mechanism’s voice in international affairs and agenda”, etc.

I could go on and on, the scale of the cooperation they detail is absolutely breathtaking, both countries are going all in with each other.

This statement is absolutely extraordinary and will likely shape the world for decades to come. We now have Russia and China explicitly stating they’re all in with each other to bring about a new “equal and orderly multipolar world and the democratization of international relations”, and put an end to US hegemonic behavior. No more pretend, it’s happening.

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Arnaud Bertrand@RnaudBertrand

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PS:

Michael Hudson: … an alternative to all the organizations that the United States has controlled to turn the whole rest of the world into Gaza.

Bai, inolako dudarik gabe!

Beraz, hona hemen egin behar dena (duguna):

a) 1990ko hamarkadetatik, MTM martxan jarri zutenetik, ikustea zer nolako erakundeak egon diren ukituak tartean

b) UEU-ko blogean material eta sarrera asko dago horren inguruan

c) Hurrengo lantxo batean arituko gara patxadaz

d) Baina bereziki zer nolako lerro nagusiak kontuan hartu diren aipatu beharra dago

BRICS da etorkizuna. Ez dago dudarik. Baina BRICS bera eraiki, hedatu, eta ahal den neurrian, hobetu behar da!

Dixi et salvavi animam meam! (Karl Marx, Gothako programa)