GAZA (Gernika berria, Palestina) versus Israel (gehi AEB + NATO, Pentagonoa eta EB) (48)

GAZA (Gernika berria, Palestina) versus Israel (gehi AEB + NATO, Pentagonoa eta EB) (48)

Gogoratzekoa

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History did not begin on October 7th!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1740157757486211240

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Europe? No, Thanks!

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Segida:

Arnaud Bertrand@RnaudBertrand

urt. 7

His nickname in Arabic: the mountain (Al Jabal). Calm and strong, Wael Dahdouh, live from Gaza, after burying his eldest son, Hamza, killed in an Israeli strike. Wael had lost members of his family, including wife, 2 kids and grandchild earlier. He himself got injured too. Jabal

Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1744104840999940319

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Glenn Diesen@Glenn_Diesen

20 h

Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1744273058737586631

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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سید محمد علی الحسینی@ali_5tani

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Palestine Highlight@PalHighlight

Megatron@Megatron_ron

Leila Hatoum@Leila1H

Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1744262852414738453

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Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1744326462449029399

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sarah@sahouraxo

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Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1744057717331796210

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Fiona Edwards@Fio_edwards

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Tiberius@ecomarxi

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Aaron Maté@aaronjmate

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Bideoa: https://youtu.be/wSJTFWZKtac

In his third appearance on Macro N Cheese, Dan Kovalik talks with Steve about his upcoming book, The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care. As with many of our guests, the episode is more of a conversation – a passionate one – than an interview.

“First of all … this conflict did not begin on October 7th, though we’re led to believe it did. This conflict – well, it depends on when you want to say it started – but certainly a good starting place is 1948 in the Nakba, when 700,000 to 900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by Israelis who came in to take over their land and their homes. And the takeover of land and homes has continued since that time.

Gaza itself has been penned in with a giant fence since about 2007 in what some refer to as the largest open-air prison in the world. Others call it the biggest concentration camp in the world — where Israel has regulated the water they get, the food they get. And they’ve kept all those things, intentionally, to a minimum.”

They both argue that the violence of the oppressor (Israel) cannot be equated with the violence of the oppressed. Any resistance against oppression is justified.

While condemning the Zionist government of Israel, they stress the culpability of the US government. They discuss the lack of difference between Democratic and Republican presidents in terms of their foreign policies, particularly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In a conversation about current American and international politics, Dan and Steve agree on a number of things, including the need for disruptive targeted protests in addition to sustained movements, a long-term commitment to resistance, and international solidarity.

Where they disagree, however, is on the matter of so-called taxpayer money. As always, Steve makes sure to correct the record. Several times.

Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He is the author of several books, including The Plot to Scapegoat Russia, Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance, and the upcoming The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care.

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Transkripzioa:

0:00

[Music]

0:11

all right this is Steve with macaron cheese and today’s guest is none other than Dan caval Dan has been on here

0:18

several times with me so his introduction will be a little shorter this time Dan cavolik is an American

0:24

human rights labor lawyer and peace activist he’s contributed articles to tons of Publications has written many

0:31

books including cancel this book Nicaragua both of which we covered here

0:36

without further Ado let’s bring on my guest Dan kaval welcome to the show sir hey thank you very much appreciate it

0:44

absolutely I’m really beside myself angry frustrated I don’t even think those

0:51

terms capture how disgusted I am with what’s going on in Gaza right now and

0:58

the Zionist war against the people of

1:04

daa I’ve got my own ideas beliefs and frustrations but one of the things that

1:11

feels absolutely certainty is when you’re an oppressed people living under someone else’s Rule

1:19

and they are dominating you and destroying you when you fight back I don’t see how

1:26

that is an act of Terror in my mind if somebody is harming me harming my family

1:33

stealing our land stealing our home anything I do is fair game at that point

1:39

and you don’t want that to happen don’t steal my land don’t put your boot on my neck and I know it’s all the rage to try

1:47

to be fair and balanced but to me there is one victim here and that’s the people of Gaza and there’s one oppressor that

1:54

is the conglomerate of oppressors with the US backing of Zionist Israel

1:59

right-wing Zionist Israel I’m not talking about Jewish people I’m talking about zionists and this neocon

2:06

government under BB Netanyahu what are your thoughts help me

2:11

understand Gaza I agree with you first of all if you look at what happened October

2:19

7th as you are suggesting this conflict did not again

2:24

on October 7th that we’re led to believe it did this conflict

2:30

well depends on when you want to say it started but certainly a good starting

2:35

place is 1948 and the knba when 700 to

2:41

900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by israelies who came in to

2:47

take over their land and their homes and the Takeover of land and homes

2:55

has continued since that time Gau itself has been penned in with

3:01

a giant fence since about 2007 in what is now some refer to as the

3:08

largest open air prison in the world others call it the biggest concentration camp in the

3:15

world where Israel has regulated the water they get the food they

3:21

get and they’ve kept all those things by the way intentionally to a

3:26

minimum so these are in imprisoned people in Gaza that are

3:32

treated worse than animals is the truth of it and as you say the violence of the

3:39

oppressor is not the same as the violence of the oppressed if you took the example of a slave and a slave owner

3:46

for a slave owner to say oh my God on October 7th my slaves they rose up and

3:52

they mostly attacked the overseers in the fields who were whipping them but

3:59

yeah they ALS also killed some of my family there wouldn’t be a lot of

4:05

Sympathy for the slaveholder is the truth of it and I

4:11

think that that analogy is a fair analogy and actually on October 7th it

4:16

should be noted that it looks like even by Israel’s own numbers that about 2third of the people killed were

4:24

military targets were military people a third war

4:30

civilians it’s not clear that Hamas targeted civilians a number died in the crossfire

4:37

some by the way it appears by the Israelis themselves by the Israeli military themselves either through

4:45

panicking or by applying what they call the Hannibal directive that they don’t want

4:51

to allow their people to be taken as hostages so they kill them first and let’s compare that to what

4:57

Israel is doing in Gaza where 40% of the victims there are

5:04

children and the vast majority I saw at one point 90% were civilian in fact it’s the

5:13

greatest percentage of civilians killed in any conflict even including World War

5:21

II so even the way Israel’s Prosecuting this war is Despicable so yes I agree with you I

5:28

think that that anyone who knows the situation is going to be sympathetic to

5:33

the Palestinian people and that’s why you see this outcry that’s why you see these Mass protest throughout the world

5:40

because people know again a lot of people know anyway the injustices the Palestinians have

5:46

suffered and they know that this war against them is not so much a war as it is a

5:53

turkey shoot that it really is Israel just wanly murdering civilians

6:00

destroying hospitals destroying mosques destroying Christian churches destroying

6:07

museums over a hundred significant historic sites have been destroyed and

6:13

again these are Christian these are Muslim I don’t know if some Jewish sites

6:18

were destroyed but I wouldn’t be surprised by that either this is

6:24

reprehensible more journalists have been killed so far by Israel in this conflict

6:30

than any conflict we know of more un staff people have been killed

6:35

by Israel than any conflict since the United Nations was founded by any

6:41

measure this is a horrible operation that Israel’s carrying out and it’s

6:47

getting more Grizzly and awful by the day as they get more desperate and they are desperate

6:53

because while they’re very good at murdering children and destroying

6:59

Hospital hospitals they’re not really that Adept at confronting the armed resistance in Gaza they’re losing that

7:07

battle pretty handily and so to make up for that they’re engaged

7:14

in this org of violence against the civilian population which we’ve seen before we saw that with the US and

7:21

Vietnam for example probably one of the best examples and the US and Korea as well

7:29

so I think you’re on the right track I have been sold my entire adult

7:37

life that the only thing preventing the evils of the Republican Party are the

7:45

Democratic party and everything that the

7:50

left those that were willing to even play in electoral

7:56

politics and those who saw the Bernie Sanders camp campaign imploded on itself not once but

8:03

twice when I think about everything people were asking for and the things that people stood for the sensibilities

8:11

of that massive movement in the United

8:16

States the idea that anybody voted for this annihilation of Gaza this support

8:25

for these proxy wars I’m foolish enough to believe this

8:30

is a Democrat only problem I know it’s a capital problem it is the ownership

8:37

class it is not necessarily We the People problem because I don’t believe

8:43

we the people really have any hand in selecting our president they’re selected for us but in this case what Biden has

8:51

done in terms of not standing for a ceasefire even Bernie Sanders up till

8:57

recently had been resisting in calling for a ceasefire the only person that

9:02

actually said anything was Rashida Talib and of course she’s written off as just

9:08

another Palestinian terrorist that’s the narrative right and it’s not just

9:14

Republicans there Democrats too this government has signed on for

9:22

this genocide what is it exactly that I would be voting in support of what about this

9:28

represent the best of America and the righteous

9:33

path forward I don’t understand how anyone in

9:38

clear conscience can sell what’s happening in Gaza right now as foreign

9:45

policy success how does this

9:51

represent the will of the people help me understand that well of course it does

9:57

not and the polls show that a majority of Americans want a ceasefire I think

10:02

some like 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire so Biden is betraying in a big

10:11

way his own supporters but as you say this is how it is during every

10:17

administration every time we think we might be voting for the Lesser evil they

10:23

show themselves to certainly be as evil as the other party or Obama is a great example that

10:31

and Obama really got away with it and Obama’s still Remembered in a very fond way even though he engaged in atrocious

10:39

foreign policy he was Mr drone man he killed I

10:44

believe more people with drones and any other president dropped more bombs than George

10:50

W bush he destroyed Libya during his tenure he was not a man of Peace by any

10:59

stretch of the imagination even though he won a Nobel Peace Prize and he was awarded it before he had been in office

11:06

for very long which was strange but everyone had so much hope in the

11:11

guy but he was as bad as anyone he also started by the way the war in Yemen which is not discussed very much which

11:18

led to the worst humanitarian crisis in the world I think only to be now

11:24

exceeded by Gaza so now you have two democratic presidents

11:30

leading to the worst humanitarian crisis on Earth through their policies

11:35

so there is no lesser evil in the American political

11:41

landscape that is a fact and that’s because the government is held captive

11:48

by the ruling class it is a government by and for the very super

11:55

rich and it doesn’t matter who’s in office largely I hate to say that that but that’s the truth of

12:00

it and that’s not a cynical view it’s a realistic View and it’s a Marxist view

12:07

of the situation and so really I think at the

12:12

moment the only real viable means to

12:17

challenge the war machine since it is a bipartisan issue even Bobby Kennedy who I had some

12:25

hope in because he talked about trying to end the endless Wars and shut down

12:31

our 800,000 military bases in the world and cut back the

12:37

CIA he’s terrible on the Palestinian Israel issue he may be worse than any of the candidates in

12:45

truth so there is no viable candidate who’s going to save the day here the

12:51

only viable option for us is to take to the streets and

12:57

protest The Ballot Box right now is not really a

13:03

realistic forum for Americans to change policy because

13:10

our Representatives don’t represent us the other evidence of this is think about it Congress has barely been

13:18

functioning since the summer because remember there wasn’t a speaker of the house because the

13:24

Republicans dethroned their own speaker of the house and then took a while to elect it new

13:30

one so really there hasn’t been much legislative work done since the summer

13:36

and now we in the Christmas break but the only thing debated seriously during

13:43

all that time was military funding for Israel and Ukraine while you have an increased

13:49

homeless problem you have people without Health Care you have people in huge student debt Consumer Debt you have

13:55

serious social problems in this country the only business of Congress for months

14:02

has been how much money are we going to give to fight Wars and to the defense industry that is not a democracy they

14:09

are not representing our interest or our well-being and we have to act as such I

14:17

just think you have to be realistic about

14:23

[Music] that

14:36

I’m continuously gaslit by people who are

14:42

true believers they believe in electoralism and these hopium style

14:49

pontifications from various Talking Heads and they devour MSNBC and other

14:58

Main stream media and ultimately some of these people are unwilling to look at

15:06

this critically the Palestinian conflict what

15:11

the US role is my focus is the convergence of ecosocialism

15:20

class analysis and modern monetary Theory I’m desperate to get people on board with

15:27

that the various people that would be willing to run for office they don’t

15:33

have a clue about economics the vast majority of alt media has no clue about

15:41

economics how in the world could you do something great to save us from climate

15:47

destruction they wouldn’t know what to do and maryan Williamson was talking

15:54

like a full-fledged Zionist didn’t know any better unread on the subject I have

16:01

no idea what’s going on with brother West these days I never was on Bobby Kennedy’s train when he was all about

16:09

free markets for energy that eliminated him immediately nothing to do with him at that point what constituency are you

16:17

speaking for I am all about ending War period I’m

16:23

all about making sure that the working class have their need s met none of that

16:30

is being put forward by anyone and so do we have agency within

16:37

this government do we have means to affect the outcomes whether it be

16:43

through the election process or is the only way to make an impact through

16:49

building parallel systems and making the weight of the old system fall on itself

16:56

and create a way for us to organize outside of it I’m of the belief that that’s the

17:04

only path forward I don’t see an electoral path to change what’s going on

17:09

in Gaza and Ukraine I see no path where our voice

17:18

impacts this system which tells me that we don’t matter so you said the only way

17:24

forward in your eyes is to take to the streets but take to the streets is

17:30

typically popup action there’s no follow through so how do you make an impact

17:36

what does history teach us with sustained movements about organizing me is it black panthers do we look to them

17:42

do we look at the Civil Rights Movement where do we find the model for which to

17:48

organize to go forward green party has been around forever has done really nothing with all due respect no it

17:53

hasn’t I’ve seen no impact whatsoever anywhere because this Leviathan is a

18:01

monster it’s not just a military around the world it’s a police force domestically it’s a million things that

18:09

prevent us from being able to see what the hell are you doing killing children in a freaking

18:16

Hospital Dan I’m lost yeah well there’s every reason to

18:22

be angry about what’s happening I agree with the memes that say if you wondered

18:28

what you would be doing in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust you know now and I

18:34

believe that what is happening in

18:39

Gaza is on a level of brutality that we’ve never seen in our

18:45

lifetimes It could only happen with us support militarily financially

18:51

diplomatically politically and so what does that call for what does it call for if again let’s

18:59

assume you did live in Nazi Germany and you knew that the Holocaust was

19:05

happening you would be obligated to resist it any way you

19:10

could and I think there would be extreme forms of resistance that would be called for and no one would question that in

19:18

honesty I believe that’s the case now I think this calls for drastic action the protests have been good and I

19:26

applaud everyone for doing them but I do think those have to intensify they need to grow and honestly they need to be

19:35

more disruptive they need to disrupt the economy they need to disrupt the lives

19:41

of politicians I don’t think any of these politicians who are supporting the war

19:47

which is almost all of them should be able to sleep at night should be able to

19:53

go out to restaurant should be able to be seen in public without being harassed

19:59

in the same way again that you would view a Nazi during World War II you

20:04

would not feel any compunction about challenging them in a very serious way

20:13

that really is what it calls for is rebellion on that kind of

20:19

scale are people up for that I’m not sure so far I don’t see evidence of it I

20:25

certainly see maybe little glimmers of it I think shutting down Grand Central

20:30

Station here’s the thing and I applauded it and it makes me so happy that they

20:36

shut down Grand Central Station but at the same time shutting down Grand Central Station

20:43

today is not the same thing as it would have been a hundred years ago and why because the capitalists don’t ride the

20:52

Subways right maybe they did in the past they

20:58

used to use our roads for their cars they don’t probably do that anymore

21:04

they fly in helicopters private jets if you shut down a major commercial airport

21:12

they wouldn’t care because they have their own private airports the point is one has to think very strategically

21:20

about how do you disrupt the lives of the people that are actually making the decisions about these things knowing

21:26

they no longer walk amongst us they used to have to walk amongst us that is not

21:31

true anymore and so shutting down Grand Central Station or shutting down a

21:36

tunnel during rush hour it’s a great symbolic

21:43

act but if we’re realistic the only people at inconveniences are mostly

21:48

workingclass people cuz even more well to do Americans who you wouldn’t count

21:54

in the ruling class they’re not going on the subra either we really have to think like Saul Linsky

22:02

who was a great organizer you have to really think how do we disrupt the system in a way that will force it to

22:09

react and I think we need to start thinking about those

22:15

things again without compromising my freedom from

22:23

prison I think some very drastic measures are probably in is the truth of

22:29

it because what we’re seeing is an Abomination it is a

22:35

genocide and again if you’re confronting a genocide and you know that that’s

22:42

happening what do you going to do about that are you going to withhold taxes you’re going to be like the war

22:48

resistors League who don’t pay taxes that’s an idea those are the DraStic actions that

22:55

need to happen because otherwise what you’re saying saying is true the ruling class doesn’t give a

23:01

damn they don’t give a damn what we think that’s for sure I know that economics is my area and you’re a peace

23:10

activist your focus is on geopolitics when they receive our tax

23:16

they delete it they don’t resend it it’s a fiat currency they make it freely so

23:21

when the government decides it wants to give Israel a billion dollar it can give it a billion dollars simply by going

23:28

into a computer and typing it into their account and hit send it doesn’t require

23:34

any of our quote unquote tax dollars so when money is spent into the economy

23:41

that does its thing and when it’s taxed it deletes it and this is the rule of a Fiat that’s why we keep seeing money

23:47

explode and grow when you have a Fiat system like this taxation itself is

23:54

merely meant to keep you needing the dollar its purpose is not a funding mechanism in any way it is only to keep

24:01

you Tethered to the currency the fact is you are forced to pay your tax in US

24:08

dollars so not paying your tax doesn’t prevent the government from spending a

24:15

trillion more it could spend as much as it wants in the military-industrial complex

24:21

irrespective of how much money it spends into the economy and this is when one of

24:28

the most difficult things because this concept of taxpayer money started with

24:34

Margaret Thatcher in fact she famously said there is no such thing as public

24:39

money there is only taxpayer dollars and her and rean created this blowback

24:46

against public spending and this all transpired back in 1972 with the removal of Breton woods

24:54

and putting us onto a free floating Fiat regime which has beautiful potential and

25:00

also monstrous potential as we’re seeing today so when I think about the idea of

25:07

how do we impact them withholding your tax that they feel good but it has no

25:14

impact at all and again most people don’t know

25:19

that when I think about how would we actually demonstrate I think you were

25:24

right when you said disruption blocking traffic outside of the Congress you see

25:31

a lot of people going to jail right now climate activists are being jailed it’s

25:38

a very crappy time to care because all the tools for fighting back are

25:46

gone so how do we fight back I don’t know what to

25:56

do [Music]

26:08

again there are some actions that I think do have a real impact for

26:14

example people on the docks who have prevented

26:19

shipments of arms going out people who have had actions directly

26:27

against defense companies usually in the form of

26:32

graffiti but you could have more intense actions against them again you really

26:38

have to go directly against the war machine I think and disrupt

26:44

production of armaments shipment of armaments even maybe production of raw

26:52

materials for armaments steel Plastics I think one has to really think

27:00

about how you disrupt the economic mechanism for

27:06

supporting the war effort and if you look at what Yemen’s doing for example

27:11

in their part of the world I think it’s very effective where they’re basically shutting down the Red Sea for

27:20

shipping those ships have to go all the way around the Horn of

27:25

Africa which is going to C cost them billions of dollars and that’s smart what the EMES are

27:33

doing and that’s what we have to do we have to do those sorts of things those sorts of direct

27:39

actions and not concentrate on symbolic

27:46

actions they seemed very afraid of the so-called insruction on January 6 I

27:52

suppose you could try to duplicate that on a daily

27:59

basis the one airport the Congress does depend upon we know after 911 because it

28:06

was thought they were going to shut down Reagan National Airport permanently after 911 because it’s right in the

28:12

heart of DC they thought that that should not be used again for commercial air traffic

28:19

because it was too vulnerable for terrorist to use to attack Washington DC so the FAA thought about shutting it

28:25

down permanently and the members of Congress protested because they said we all depend on it to get back and forth

28:32

to our home States and so if you disrupted rean national airport in a severe way that

28:39

would have consequences that’s what we have to think about we really have to disrupt the

28:47

system people do what they feel empowered to do what they feel capable and competent to do and you can’t do

28:56

something of loone you need a mass movement yes you

29:02

do and not just one little group you need crosssection you need basically the

29:07

Civil Rights Movement all over again you need the old anti-war movement back with

29:13

a purpose you need large groups of people a movement of

29:20

movements to be able to let them know that this is not acceptable because

29:28

the lack of options the lack of imagination everything is not going to

29:34

be like the Bolsheviks even though I happen to have a warm spot in my heart for that

29:41

everything doesn’t have to be storming the basti there are other ways and it could

29:47

just be checking out of the system and building a parallel

29:54

system but in the end there’s no mechanism for us to be

29:59

able to move people who are typically just fearful voter minded people I’m

30:06

going to cast my vote and that’s the end of my commitment to democracy I’ve hit

30:12

the ballot box I filled out my ticket I’ve submitted it and I’m done I feel like there’s a whole lot of

30:18

space in between that and Revolution I feel like there’s something that we’re

30:24

not seeing because there’s no hope right now I don’t see Hope anyway I see bursts

30:30

of energy but not sustained hope not belief that Something Good Can Happen

30:37

not a commitment to it and it’s always a very small group of people that are turned into Fringe made

30:44

seem crazy for seeing things so clearly but in the end do you see any evidence

30:50

that Joe Biden is listening to the people he’s listening in the sense that

30:55

he understands that he needs needs to change his rhetoric he’s at least pretending that he cares about civilians

31:01

in Palestine he’s listening to that extent but he’s responding with platitudes that

31:08

are meaningless because while he says he cares about the civilians while he claims he’s told Netanyahu to go easy on

31:14

the civilians he’s also sending heavy armaments to Israel he’s also working

31:20

behind the scenes to remove any human rights restrictions on reserve weapons and

31:26

munitions that Israel can tap into even without Congressional approval so he’s not complying with what

31:35

people are asking him to do but he is listening he understands that his base

31:40

is furious about this and might abandon him over this and that’s something that is something I think though that again

31:47

the protests in order to really be effective need to grow to be bigger to be more

31:56

pointed in what they’re protesting against and how they’re targeting what they’re protesting

32:02

against and I think we could have an impact in concert with frankly what’s

32:08

happening on the ground in the Middle East again with what Yemen’s doing with what Hezbollah is doing with what the

32:13

militants in Gaza are doing they’re doing an amazing job of

32:19

resisting what the US and Israel is doing to Gaza and I do think we can help that

32:26

effort by Street protests again that I think are more

32:32

targeted now I just got back from the West Bank of Palestine people were very

32:37

clear to me they felt very uplifted by the demonstrations in the United States

32:43

I want to tell people that because I think that is important yeah giving people hope giving people a belief that

32:51

they’re not alone that brues their spirits that bullies their resistance and I think that was true in

32:58

Vietnam in the sense that who ended the Vietnam War the Vietnamese did by winning first and foremost but I think

33:06

the protests gave them moral support for

33:11

their efforts and maybe slow down the war machine enough to help them

33:17

win I certainly don’t want to leave people with the impression that what they do is futile I think any Act of

33:25

resistance is important yeah yes and meaningful and can have an

33:31

impact I just think that it’s time to up our game I really do like media Benjamin

33:37

they need to go into hearings disrupt the hearings scream at the people ring

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the hearing scream at their Congress people again when they’re at a restaurant or they’re on the street or even in their homes they should not be

33:51

allowed to be comfortable while they’re supporting a genocide and I do think they are feeling

33:58

a certain discomfort I think a lot of that is happening you see videos every day of Congress people being confronted

34:04

by constituents aggressively and that needs to continue and it needs to be in

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fact increased so anyway that’s my thought I do think

34:16

what is being done on the streets does have meaning is it enough probably not

34:21

but I think gotta start somewhere yeah it’s necessary

34:27

it may not be sufficient but it’s

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[Music]

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necessary that’s well stated in your mind being that you have

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been over there you’ve been around people actively resisting what is it like as a person in

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the West Bank living there for someone who’s living this hell right

35:07

now I saw one picture in particular that was just too much to bear and it was a

35:13

building that had fallen on asleeping child and it was horrifying but this has got to be I hate

35:21

to say the new normal but every day you’re waking up to something like

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it’s got to be horrible well in Gaza it is Gaza is a

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hellscape and I think there just surviving is an

35:39

active resistance and just not leaving is an active resistance because that’s

35:45

what Israel wants they want to remove everyone from Gaza and put them in the Sinai

35:50

desert just staying there just living just reproducing those are acts of

35:56

resistance existance and they know that I saw a video of a girl she must have been 10

36:02

years old and she had been removed from the rubble and they asked her what are you g

36:07

to do you gonna leave she goes I’m never GNA leave and if they kill me I will be a seed that they plant for the

36:14

resistance she’s like 10 years old wow that’s how we have to be we have to be

36:20

inspired by them too and I think the other thing is you kind of touched upon

36:26

this just like you can’t go to The Ballot Box and feel like your day is done you can’t

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go to a protest or two and think your job is done this has to be a lifelong struggle yes and you have to be in it

36:39

for the long haul because this won’t be one overnight

36:47

and this war will end it’s important when it does end not

36:52

to disarm and stop protesting because then there will be another another phase of the

36:59

struggle people need to look at their lives in a different way now of course I’ve organized my life

37:06

in a certain way so that I can be pretty much a full-time activist I know most people can’t do that I’m sympathetic

37:13

with that obviously I’m in a very privileged position but I think a rot of

37:18

people certainly from our socioeconomic backgrounds can do a lot to become close

37:24

to full-time activist and I think they need to look at their life as an act of resistance and to be

37:31

engaged in the struggle constantly for me especially given what I’m seeing in Gaza there’s nothing else for me what

37:38

else am I going to do nothing else has meaning like I don’t

37:43

know watching a movie or going out to listen to music those are all nice

37:49

things and all but it’s like I don’t feel that I can do that at the

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moment when I I see all this Carnage and certainly people in West Bank that was

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their view that everyone I was with they were not they hadn’t gone to a restaurant since October 7th a friend of

38:06

mine who hosted me there her daughter is getting married tomorrow actually and they canceled the wedding they’re going

38:13

to get married but it’s only going to be immediate family they’re not celebrating the

38:19

Patriarchs in Bethlehem and I was lucky I made it to Bethlehem Christian Patriarchs wrote a letter to Biden

38:25

saying they’re canceling Chris they literally said we’re canceling Christmas because you can’t celebrate

38:30

anything when this Carnage is happening and I think it calls for that kind of

38:41

dedication right now from people who can give

38:47

that I saw Aaron mate confront a politician on the quiet car yeah I think

38:54

it’s Senator yeah and when I think about the response to

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that it would be easy for me well would be hard but I try to put myself in the Senator’s

39:07

position the reality is instead of the senator taking Aaron’s

39:15

perspective seriously he tried to get him removed

39:20

and that was Aaron being the most polite person get videotaped you could see he

39:27

wasn’t being mean or horrible he was just making his case but you could see the disdain the absolute disgust on the

39:35

Senator’s face and the idea that someone would dare even speak to him one of the

39:44

peasants well you saw I confronted Senator Federman and was thrown

39:49

out but it’s good for people to see that it’s not good that the Senators look at

39:54

us as mere peasants but it’s good that if they do it’s good for people to see it that that’s where

40:01

we’re at you can see what contemp they have for us they hate us they absolutely

40:07

hate us if they didn’t hate us they wouldn’t let us live the way we do with our cities again with the growing

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homelessness the growing crime and Chaos this Society is falling apart and

40:19

they’re doing nothing to stop it nothing and they do have utter contempt

40:26

for us and the more people see that and understand it that’s all to the good because people should have no faith in

40:33

our elected officials at all they have to be some of the most corrupt people in the world we always

40:40

talk about corruption in other countries but in terms of dollar amount

40:45

this has to be the most corrupt country in the world what’s the figure that the Pentagon could not account for something

40:52

like $21 trillion or something ridiculous yes there can’t be another

40:58

country in the world with a worst form of corruption again just dollarwise

41:04

but people need to understand that I think it is happening if you look at the

41:10

polls people don’t trust the government they don’t think their vote

41:15

counts they’re open to a third party candidate most people know that it’s

41:23

fixed but that has to really sink again we have to act

41:30

accordingly but again I want to finish on a hopeful note I do feel hopeful I am

41:35

very leavened by the protests in the United States I’m surprised how big they are

41:43

and how sustained they’ve been and I applaud people for that I

41:48

do and I think that this could be the beginning of a new peace

41:54

movement and it could be the beginning of building a movement for a truly

42:01

Democratic Society which is what we need sign me up yeah so let’s just move

42:08

forward that’s my two cents I suppose I am very leavened by what I see

42:14

as the resistance of the Palestinian people I mean again if they can endure what they’re enduring we can do our

42:22

B yeah thank you Dan I really appreciate your time tell folks where they can find

42:28

more of your work well I’m on Twitter danielm kovalik and also I have a new

42:34

book coming out and you can pre-order it now and it’s called the case for

42:41

Palestine that’s coming out in March but you can pre-order it from Amazon now or

42:46

go to my Publishing Company Sky hor publishing.com awesome count on it I hope I can talk to

42:53

you about that when it comes out sir thanks Steve I appreciate you all right

42:58

thank you everybody this is Steve with macaron and cheese my guest Dan kaval we are

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[Music]

43:25

Abby I been feeling no control the ways in

43:30

which I end up I don’t

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Katie Halper is a Jew For #CeasefireNow@kthalps

Bideoa: https://twitter.com/i/status/1742541790429794742

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Gaza: a textbook case of ethnic cleansing

What is happening in Gaza is more than a spur-of-the-moment decision; it is part and parcel of the Zionist project.

(https://tfazi.substack.com/p/gaza-a-textbook-case-of-ethnic-cleansing)

Thomas Fazi

3 Jan 2024

Ethnic cleansing — the forced or “pressured” removal of an ethnic, racial or religious group from any given area with the intent of making the latter ethnically homogeneous — is considered one of the worst possible crimes against humanity. Indeed, it is often described as part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide — the actual physical destruction of a people, in whole or in part.

There is currently an ongoing debate over whether Israel’s actions in Gaza — which in less than three months have wiped out 1% of the enclave’s pre-war population — constitute a genocide or not. As I reported a few days ago, South Africa has filed a case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) accusing Israel of just that.

While I consider South Africa’s move important in terms of applying international pressure on Israel — and I will be following the proceedings very closely — I also consider the whole “genocide debate” to be somewhat misleading. After all, slaughtering civilians on an industrial scale, as Israel has done and continues to do in Gaza, remains atrocious regardless of whether it fits some legal-technical definition or not.

But more importantly, it is a distraction from what the Israelis are unequivocally attempting to do in Gaza, because they themselves admit it, and that is the ethnic cleansing of (all or a significant part of) the Gazan population — now rebranded by Israeli propaganda as “voluntary emigration”.

Two senior ministers in Netanyahu’s cabinet — National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich — recently endorsed the rebuilding of settlements in the Gaza Strip and the encouraging of the “voluntary emigration” of Palestinians.

According to the Times of Israel, “they presented the migration of Palestinian civilians as a solution to the long-running conflict and as a prerequisite for securing the stability necessary to allow residents of southern Israel to return to their homes”.

According to Ben-Gvir:

[The war presents an] opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza. [This policy is] a correct, just, moral and humane solution. We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing.

While Smotrich said that:

The correct solution [to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict] is to encourage the voluntary migration of Gaza’s residents to countries that will agree to take in the refugees.

In a radio interview, Smotrich further elaborated on his “solution”, suggesting the removal of around 90% of Gaza’s residents:

If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not two million, the whole discourse about the day after will be different.

According to Smotrich, more than 70% of the Israeli public today supports such a plan — which he describes as a “humanitarian solution”.

Last month, another senior cabinet member — Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel — penned an op-ed for The Jerusalem Post similarly calling for the “voluntary resettlement” of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to other countries around the world. 

Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter went even further, calling for the rolling out of a “second Nakba”.

There have also been official Israeli government reports proposing the transfer of Gazans to Egypt and the “thinning” of the population in Gaza.

And this is on top of the countless other statements by current or former Israeli officials explicitly calling for the ethnic cleansing — or outright genocide — of Gazans, some of them openly talking of “erasing”, “flattening”, and even “nuking” Gaza.

But perhaps most notably, Benjamin Netanyahu himself, at a meeting of Likud Knesset members last week, admitted that his government is “working for the voluntary emigration of Gazans from the Gaza Strip”.

“Our problem is countries that are ready to absorb them, and we are working on it”, Netanyahu said.

In short, Israel has gone out of its way to make it clear that its ultimate goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza — indeed, it’s hard to imagine how they could be any more explicit about it.

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“Exile is more than a geographical concept. You can be an exile in your homeland, in your own house, in a room.”

Mahmoud Darwish