NATO (gehi AEB+ EB) Errusiaren aurka-5

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Arty Lunch – Arthur Poindexter Lunch@ArtyLunch

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Alfred de Zayas@Alfreddezayas

TRANSKRIPZIOA:

0:00

thank you

0:00

[Music]

0:18

hello and welcome to crosstalk where all

0:21

things are considered I’m Peter Lavelle

0:22

at the recent G20 meeting in Bali the

0:25

West did all it could with the help of

0:27

corporate media to isolate Russia all

0:30

their efforts came to nothing in fact

0:32

the opposite happened Russia was a

0:34

welcome participant NATO’s proxy war in

0:37

Ukraine has United much of the global

0:39

South it’s NATO against the world

0:47

[Music]

0:52

crosstalking the global majority I’m

0:53

joined by my guest Alfred desias in

0:55

Geneva he’s he’s an author and former

0:58

U.N independent expert on International

1:00

order in Belgrade we have Stephen gaichi

1:02

is a research Associated at the at

1:05

belgrade’s Institute for European

1:06

studies and in Istanbul we crossed the

1:08

house on unal he is professor at the

1:11

department of political science and

1:12

international relations at maltip

1:13

University Welcome gentlemen crosstalk

1:15

rules in effect that means he can jump

1:16

at any time you want and I always

1:18

appreciate Alfred let me go to you first

1:19

here much been said about the conflict

1:21

in Ukraine but if you look at on an

1:24

international scale I see a Tipping

1:26

Point a pivot as it were going on here

1:28

the the recent G20 meeting in in Bali is

1:32

a very good indication when Western

1:34

media says the G20 is United on Ukraine

1:37

which is absolutely propaganda it is not

1:39

true whatsoever and if you go into the

1:42

thick description and look at countries

1:43

wanted to talk about they wanted to talk

1:45

about food they want to talk about

1:47

energy they want to talk about trade

1:49

they didn’t want to talk about Ukraine

1:51

but the the the countries that are in

1:53

the G7 that are in the G20 that’s all

1:55

they wanted to talk about this is a huge

1:56

diversion going on go ahead Alfred

1:59

well indeed but the information War

2:03

continues and intensifies in the west I

2:06

am really surprised I live here in

2:08

Geneva Switzerland and uh our newspapers

2:12

the Cleveland and the noise

2:16

really follow the New York Times on the

2:19

Washington Post and CNN Etc so the

2:22

information war in the west the

2:24

indoctrination the brainwashing in the

2:27

west is alive and well that of course

2:30

doesn’t function necessarily in Latin

2:32

America doesn’t function in Africa it

2:34

doesn’t function in Asia

2:36

of course Latin Americans and Asians

2:39

have other priorities

2:40

you know we in we haven’t

2:43

internal

2:45

Western carel between the United States

2:49

the Europeans and the Russians uh and uh

2:53

basically we have no right to risk the

2:57

welfare of the entire planet because of

3:01

our Corel whether Donuts happens to be

3:05

in Russia or in Ukraine I mean this is

3:10

an internal matter that should never

3:12

have led uh to violence it’s an internal

3:15

matter there should have been uh settled

3:18

pursuant to

3:19

article two paragraph three of the uon

3:22

charter which is the only rules-based

3:26

order that we have the U.N Charter

3:29

basically is the world Constitution and

3:33

I am sick and tired of hearing my uh

3:35

Secretary General in Boca so-called

3:39

rules-based International order well

3:42

well Alfred I I’ve done I’m sick and

3:44

tired of that phrase too because it is

3:46

vacuous it has no meaning and it means I

3:49

have the rules and you’re going to do

3:50

what I tell you to do that’s what it

3:51

means here Stephen let me in Belgrade uh

3:54

much of what Alfred said must seem very

3:56

familiar to you considering how the West

3:58

demonizes Serbia it’s really the same

4:00

plain book it’s just on steroids this

4:03

time go ahead in Belgrade exactly I mean

4:06

what we are seeing is uh a uh last grip

4:11

of Neo a colonial language the thing is

4:13

that everybody knows the phrases we all

4:17

uh uh understand what’s what they are

4:19

actually saying uh this is only a

4:22

reframing of the language which is

4:25

supposed to keep uh the not only the

4:28

global South but I would say uh all of

4:30

the political not politically

4:32

non-western actors in the world uh in

4:35

the state of submission and in the uh

4:38

state of constant extortion or resources

4:41

uh people uh and uh uh to to prevent the

4:47

changes that are inevitable and I think

4:49

that maybe for the Russians this uh war

4:52

is uh even a civil war on a on a on a

4:55

closed territory I mean on a part of its

4:57

of its historical territory but for the

5:00

rest of the world I think this is an

5:02

anti-colonial struggle yeah uh and for

5:04

the the anglo-american Coalition this is

5:07

also existential for their interests

5:10

because they they just don’t want to uh

5:13

to to appease with the the changes that

5:15

are inevitable you know Hassan in

5:18

Istanbul Turkey is a member of NATO here

5:20

but turkey is playing a unique role in

5:23

in this situation here and it’s quite

5:25

commendable I would say because you know

5:27

we are in a multi-polar world and turkey

5:30

gets it and understands it and acts as

5:33

if it is a a significant power in its

5:36

region and it’s acting upon its interest

5:38

here even though it’s other NATO allies

5:41

don’t like it of course the EU was it a

5:45

10 days ago you know the he was through

5:47

you know telling the Turks not to get

5:49

don’t cozy up to the Russians I mean

5:51

what about sovereignty see I agree with

5:54

what Stephen just said here you know

5:55

sovereignty self-determination here this

5:57

is something the West talks about but

5:59

never practices go ahead and Assemble

6:03

well as you said turkey is a member of

6:06

NATO and it’s been a reliable member of

6:09

NATO with the second biggest armed

6:11

forces and its Armed Forces has had

6:14

enormous uh battle uh experience and all

6:19

that but it has also all the political

6:22

experience uh particularly within the

6:25

NATO world and the Western World how

6:28

they for instance propagandize things

6:30

are they demonize world leaders and how

6:33

they try to basically resort to

6:36

propaganda on all matters these days in

6:39

particular over the last few decades

6:41

they use propaganda as the ballistic

6:43

missiles you know they they just

6:47

send the ballistic massage in the form

6:50

of propaganda across the world but the

6:52

good thing is we in Turkey hardly

6:55

believe in this sort of propaganda

6:57

anymore because it’s been resorted to so

6:59

many times so frequently that it has

7:02

lost much of its meaning it is not

7:05

convincible at all it’s not convincing

7:07

at all you know

7:09

as you said it’s a member of NATO but at

7:13

the same time if you ask the public

7:15

right from the on anything that involves

7:18

the United States the public would say

7:21

oh it must be the United States

7:23

basically that isn’t wrong

7:25

um and uh the

7:28

public polls suggested at the beginning

7:30

of the conflict in Ukraine and

7:33

in into into the conflict some months

7:37

um that the Turkish public basically

7:39

blames much of the conflict on the

7:41

United States and its attitude so it

7:43

could have been basically dealt with in

7:45

a peaceful manner it wasn’t preferred to

7:48

by the United States and and the rest of

7:52

the world as you said I don’t normally

7:55

call it the global South I call it the

7:57

United World United okay all right

8:00

Hassan I’m going to top you I’m going to

8:02

top you on that because it’s exactly

8:04

what I was going to ask Global South is

8:07

popular but I like Global majority do

8:09

you like that Alfred because that’s what

8:10

it is the global majority

8:12

there’s no question that the

8:16

non-western world is far more populous

8:20

than the Western World when we in the

8:23

west talk about the International

8:25

Community we are basically talking

8:30

on a nice language we’re talking about

8:32

the United States Canada Europe

8:35

Australia uh we keep the rest of the

8:38

world out like it doesn’t exist uh Latin

8:41

America Asia and Africa now the

8:45

perception

8:46

of NATO uh in Latin America Asia and

8:51

Africa it’s totally different from the

8:53

perception of uh nato in Europe where we

8:58

are subjected to a daily barrage of

9:02

propaganda and I think that it is

9:05

important uh to

9:09

make it clear in the uh general assembly

9:12

and in the security Council that after

9:15

the

9:17

dissolution of the Warsaw Pact uh the

9:22

NATO has no restroom depth and they

9:25

cannot pretend to be a defensive

9:29

Alliance It’s actually an offensive

9:32

Alliance and I would go one further

9:35

because of NATO’s aggressions

9:40

in Yugoslavia and Afghanistan in Iraq in

9:44

Libya in Syria because of uh the war

9:47

crimes and crimes against humanity

9:49

committed by NATO forces in all of these

9:53

countries uh NATO actually qualifies

9:57

under Articles 9 and 10 of the Nuremberg

10:02

statue I’m talking about the uh London

10:05

agreement of 8th uh August

10:08

1945. now articles 9 and 10 concern

10:13

criminal organizations criminal

10:15

organizations such as the rice Fisher

10:19

Heights Hulk and uh in Nazi Germany as

10:22

the SS

10:23

Etc now considering the war crimes that

10:26

have been committed by NATO forces in

10:29

total impunity they certainly qualify as

10:32

a criminal organization and I would like

10:35

to see Ambassador nadencia in the

10:38

security Council actually uh hold NATO

10:42

well but Alfred let me let me go to our

10:45

guests in Belgrade so I mean

10:46

international law it’s really quite

10:48

Whimsical How the West uses

10:49

international law it only mention it

10:52

when it’s to its own purposes and it and

10:54

most of the time it’s very sloppy also

10:56

okay they really aren’t very good at

10:58

invoking it they always invoke it

11:00

against someone else like in um War

11:03

crime trials I mean it’s always a Serb

11:05

never anybody else it’s just weird okay

11:09

okay I’ll give you the last minute

11:10

before we go to the break go ahead

11:11

Stephen Belgrade yeah I mean some uh 30

11:14

percent of uh of the of the so-called

11:16

war criminals uh that were indicted some

11:19

of them of course did were war criminals

11:20

uh in in the hey were were serves but I

11:23

would just like to uh add on two topics

11:25

that were just mentioned NATO and turkey

11:27

some uh two weeks ago uh I was in Turkey

11:30

on the 13th boss first summit and the

11:32

words I’ve heard that is basically that

11:35

the West doesn’t want to lose the

11:37

control over the discourse for instance

11:39

I’ve I’ve heard a an expert from the

11:41

United States who said that NATO is the

11:43

good guys club uh and uh really I love

11:46

cheers coming from coming from Serbia to

11:49

hear such words or uh Mr uh Mr Robertson

11:52

uh Lord Robertson who was uh General

11:55

Secretary of NATO he was using exactly

11:58

the same language that is former

12:00

president of Serbia used he talked about

12:02

international law aggression against uh

12:06

sovereign country and things like and I

12:07

thought oh where were you 15 or 20 years

12:09

ago with those arguments because we’ve

12:11

been saying this for the last uh 23

12:14

years now since 1999. all right

12:16

gentlemen I have to jump in here we have

12:18

to go to a hard break and after that

12:19

hard break we’ll continue our discussion

12:20

on the global majority stay with our

12:22

team

12:25

[Music]

12:29

welcome back to crosstalk where all

12:31

things are considered I’m Peter LaBelle

12:32

to remind you we’re discussing the

12:33

global majority

12:40

[Music]

12:43

okay let’s go back to our guest in

12:45

Istanbul Hassan you know one of the

12:46

things that the Biden Administration

12:48

brought to the world uh was this uh

12:51

democracy versus autocracy uh slogan and

12:55

that’s all that really is here when you

12:57

when and obviously that goes in with the

12:59

rules-based order it’s all kind of

13:00

wrapped up in this kind of discursive

13:02

nonsense here but most people don’t look

13:05

at the world that way whatsoever again

13:08

this conflict in Ukraine which I think

13:10

has prompted uh by NATO they wanted a

13:13

conflict they wanted to bring Russia

13:14

into a conflict

13:16

um and then they say they’re not part

13:17

we’re not part of it we’re not we’re not

13:19

part of that war but they very much are

13:21

part of that war so but this democracy

13:23

versus

13:24

hypocrisy it doesn’t have any residence

13:26

outside of the G7 go ahead and Assemble

13:32

well that argumentation and that this

13:35

course basically

13:37

um

13:38

doesn’t basically

13:41

exist

13:43

outside the Western world as you said

13:46

but more importantly I would say

13:49

this this is a the this is an in uh it

13:55

is it is not a convincing argument given

13:58

that you see the United States leaders

14:00

basically going over to Saudi Arabia

14:03

begging for several things several

14:06

favors on this and the other and at the

14:08

same time just as the Russian Special

14:11

Operation began in Ukraine then you have

14:14

the United States basically uh going

14:17

over to Venezuela again for similar uh

14:22

favors and all that so when it comes to

14:26

to basically support their arguments in

14:30

general

14:31

um they use it as part of their effort

14:34

to to to get their geopolitical goals

14:37

otherwise you know there is no such

14:40

division as democracies and good guys

14:42

and uh bad guys and auto autocracies so

14:47

we in Turkey okay don’t buy the Target

14:51

for instance if you are democracies then

14:54

does that mean you have no disagreement

14:56

among yourself I mean we are we know how

15:00

it has been also uh used between turkey

15:04

and Greece sometimes turkey and Greece

15:06

are both democracy they are both NATO

15:08

members but they have a lot of

15:11

disagreement over a number of uh issues

15:13

so

15:15

um that is not a a that is not something

15:19

on which you can basically base a world

15:21

order yes it is not a serious argument

15:24

at all that’s that’s such a good point

15:26

Alfred because we’re at the West ones it

15:28

wants us a suspension of belief okay is

15:32

that you know the the West talks about

15:34

geopolitics but it doesn’t practice it

15:36

Okay the whole world wants to practice

15:39

geopolitics your relative strengths you

15:41

know being a member of the International

15:43

Community and you know and what

15:45

Washington wants is that you know

15:47

there’s no you don’t have any

15:48

geopolitics we have values and you must

15:51

accept them that that just Rings Hollow

15:53

go ahead Alfred

15:55

we in the West in particular Washington

15:59

and Brussels uh we’re Hypocrites without

16:03

realizing it we believe our own

16:06

propaganda and that’s for sure but the

16:10

global majority in the world demands

16:13

today and let’s get our priorities right

16:16

we need immediate ceasefire we need

16:20

immediate negotiation

16:22

we have here nuclear powers and we

16:26

cannot afford this constant spiral of

16:30

escalation someone might make a mistake

16:33

along the way as it almost happened last

16:36

week when a Ukrainian Missile hit Poland

16:40

and then you have the issues of Articles

16:43

four and five of the NATO treaty so what

16:47

we need is mediation and I must say

16:50

thanks to president erdogan there has

16:53

been a possibility of reaching some kind

16:57

of a compromise and we need mediators I

17:02

would like to see Switzerland step in

17:04

and mediate between Russia and NATO not

17:09

only between Russia and Ukraine I would

17:12

like to say Pope uh Franciscus uh here

17:15

mediate and plead Pax

17:19

Optimum which was the motto or the piece

17:24

of was failure and the only end of this

17:27

war can be through negotiation through

17:31

compromise through a quick protocol

17:33

Russia will have to make it

17:37

since the my in the coup on maidan in

17:40

2014 the the West has been in not in a

17:43

compromising mood I don’t see why

17:45

they’re going to be in it now okay

17:47

everyone want in the in the in the west

17:50

they want to say Ukraine is a victim

17:52

well Ukraine was a volunteer it was a

17:55

NATO volunteer and this is what has

17:58

happened as a result Stephen let me go

18:00

to you I mean Joseph Burrell talked

18:02

about the garden

18:04

um and the jungle

18:06

um yes I’ve been to Serbia I’ve been to

18:08

Serbia it’s kind of a garden to me I

18:11

mean what’s going on with that guy go

18:12

ahead in Belgrade again we’re we’re

18:15

going back to this uh Colonial discourse

18:18

and they’re not even realizing that

18:19

they’re using it uh the same or similar

18:21

analogies uh uh I’ve heard uh uh from

18:26

uh from Robert Cooper in in his book

18:29

breaking of Nations where he speaks

18:31

about uh uh a modern pre-modern and

18:34

post-modern states where actually it is

18:37

a lot allowed for the political West

18:39

basically uh to lie and use lies which

18:42

really uh reminded me of what Putin said

18:44

about uh Wes being the Empire of lies

18:46

and even when it comes to uh this this

18:50

whole analogy between dictatorship

18:52

authoritarian regimes and uh and

18:55

democracies on the other side well one

18:57

of the first 10 founding states of NATO

19:00

was a fascist regime in Portugal of uh

19:03

General uh Salazar at the time uh so

19:07

what kind of language is that they they

19:10

are uh they never really followed uh the

19:14

the rules that they are imposing to the

19:16

rest of the world but uh for themselves

19:18

so so one rules applied for their

19:21

behavior and then there is another set

19:23

of rules that apply for others that’s

19:24

even even goes with this idea ideology

19:27

of laissez-faire economics or any single

19:30

component of the uh let’s say liberal

19:34

thought because there is I would say an

19:36

export version and the one that we use

19:39

at home and uh and I think that the

19:42

trick uh worked of course uh it worked

19:44

for over 200 years but it’s not working

19:46

anymore and I think the majority the

19:49

global majority uh had enough and they

19:52

don’t want to follow these rules so now

19:55

we have uh I would say a attempt to

19:59

physically stop the change and that is

20:02

why uh so much uh weapons uh is Flowing

20:05

from the West uh into Ukraine I believe

20:08

that Ukraine is a victim but not in the

20:11

way that probably majority of people

20:12

there well my point but Stephen my point

20:15

is it volunteered to do this it’s

20:17

political class co-opted by the West

20:20

volunteered to do this and the

20:23

consequences were obvious to anyone that

20:25

had open eyes okay that’s what makes

20:28

this conflict so tragic because it never

20:31

should have happened in the first place

20:33

December 17th of last year two two

20:36

ultimatums we need to talk because it’s

20:38

getting bad they wouldn’t listen

20:41

thoughts for me

20:43

because we’re rapping rapidly Running

20:45

Out of Time Hassan what do you think

20:46

about what I just said in this Temple

20:50

well I would say the the Ukraine

20:53

conflict could have been prevented

20:55

there’s no question about it and in the

20:57

end the sort of compromise whoever is

21:00

going to mediate with is going to be is

21:03

going to prove that point that it could

21:05

have been prevented right from the

21:06

beginning after all you know for

21:09

instance think about a solution to the

21:11

Ukraine crisis it can’t go on on the one

21:14

hand you have the sort of hawkish

21:17

Western World

21:18

um

21:19

interestingly though those those include

21:22

the Baltic states in Poland and Romania

21:25

and and others including Britain and

21:29

Biden’s house seems to be quite a

21:31

divided one uh we keep hearing the

21:35

United States military uh talking uh

21:39

talking in in in a in at least a little

21:43

bit sensible way so there seems to be

21:46

some sort of sort of sobriety coming up

21:48

within the Pentagon because as we heard

21:51

the Pentagon Chief saying that Ukraine

21:53

cannot basically push the Russians out

21:55

of Ukraine so the Ukraine war aims are

21:57

not attainable they are not achievable

22:00

and they will and it the automatic

22:03

suggestion that comes out of it is that

22:05

there has to be some sort of a

22:07

compromise and we see lately the CIA and

22:11

the Russian foreign intelligence service

22:14

meeting in Ankara I mean they didn’t

22:16

talk about basketball did they or any

22:19

other thing they must they must have

22:22

spoken about serious matters you know

22:24

with the Turkish intelligence Chief uh

22:28

basically mediating in between two I

22:31

would think in the end this is going to

22:34

lead to a compromise where Ukraine is

22:36

going to turn into some sort of a

22:38

federation with two Federated

22:40

founding States and then

22:43

you know uh Ukraine’s Constitution will

22:46

declare that it will remain a natural

22:49

country of some sort well if this is

22:51

going to come to that then why did you

22:54

basically cause this War and why did you

22:57

uh why did you pay well my friend you’re

23:00

you’re you’re you’re you’re preaching

23:03

you’re preaching to the choir here

23:05

Stephen and Belgrade you want to jump in

23:07

go ahead yes exactly uh it seems to me

23:10

that there is a division that we are not

23:12

really uh that is not so obvious within

23:15

the the West itself uh it seems to me

23:18

that the people in Pentagon and and

23:21

similar structures are way more rational

23:23

uh compared to the politicians uh both

23:26

in Brussels in the NATO structures and

23:29

uh in the hawkish Eastern European NATO

23:32

member states because uh they are the

23:36

ones trying to sell send the signals

23:39

okay let’s talk about it let’s not

23:41

underestimate Russia’s power let’s not

23:43

uh um escalate the conflict whereas uh

23:47

the politicians are are those who are uh

23:50

constantly putting oil to the fire uh

23:53

and I would like to see how this

23:55

development goes I’m very

23:58

um curious about the role of Elon Musk

24:00

here because well let me let me jump in

24:02

here I never have faith in these

24:04

politicians they’re all buffoons okay

24:05

Alfred last 30 seconds go to you my

24:07

friend go ahead

24:10

well uh you know my book building a just

24:14

World Order and you know my 25

24:15

principles of international order I

24:19

think that uh if uh Mr Biden

24:23

and Mr blinken were to give it a chance

24:26

and uh look at those 25 principles you

24:30

got a road map for peace in Ukraine but

24:34

of course they are so caught in their

24:37

own web that it’s very difficult what

24:41

you need is a third party you need an

24:43

erdogan you need a pope uh Francisco’s

24:46

who would mediate well everyone else you

24:50

know I’m sorry blinking and Biden are

24:52

politically illiterate that’s a problem

24:53

here gentlemen that’s all the time we

24:55

have here I want to many thanks to them

24:57

I guess in Istanbul Geneva and in

24:58

Belgrade and thanks to our viewers who

25:00

are watching us here at RT see you next

25:01

time remember crosstalk rules

25:05

foreign

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Erakutsi haria

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Gehigarri batzuk, Scott Ritter-ez

Jeff Norman@citizenjeff

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Jeff Norman@citizenjeff